 So let me kick us off and welcome all of you. Thank you for being here for another amazing episode of The Nonprofit Show. Today we have our friend across the pond in Toronto joining us, Cindy Wagman, The Good Partnership. And Cindy's here to talk to us about a really sexy subject, the neuroscience behind fundraising. So I am so excited to dive into this conversation with you, Cindy. Before we do that, we want to make sure that all of our listeners and viewers know that Julia Patrick is here. Julia is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, the Nonprofit Nerd CEO of the Raven Group and so honored to play alongside Julia as a co-host of the show in all of our 500 plus episodes, thanks to our amazing presenting sponsors to keep the show going and growing. So we would like to give a shout out to Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Nerd, your part-time controller, the Nonprofit Atlas, Nonprofit Thought Leader, as well as Staffing Boutique. And as I mentioned, we have over 500 episodes. We started this in March of 2020. You can find all of our episodes on Roku, YouTube, Fire TV, as well as Vimeo. And if you're a podcaster like I am and you listen to these as you walk or you travel or getting ready for your day, please do queue up the Nonprofit Show and you can listen to us on more than 20 non-profit streaming platforms and channels. Today's episode with Cindy will absolutely be uploaded into all of these platforms. And I just want to say welcome to Cindy and thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. It's my pleasure. Absolutely. Well, hey, let's start off because we connected on LinkedIn, I believe, and I was really just fascinated with your energy, your knowledge, your expertise. And then it comes to your name, The Good Partnership. What is this all about? So that's funny because I actually don't like the name, but it's too too late to change it. But there's always a story. There is. But The Good Partnership exists to help small nonprofits raise more money for their important work. We have a focus on social justice and anti-oppression and systemic change. But really, it's organizations that don't have the capacity to fundraise on their own and they need help. Wow. We were talking about this before we got started in the Green Room chatter, which Jerry and I always say, some of the most interesting things occur. So for those of our viewers that get on early each day, a lot of times there's a gem. But one of the things that we are really interested in talking with you about during the Green Room chatter was your new book, Raise It. And I love the tagline, The Reluctant Fundraiser's Guide to Raising Money Without Selling Your Soul. Really, really an interesting title and I think fun, a fun thing that you took this leap of faith and you put a lot of work into it to get all of your thoughts down on paper so that you can share it with us. Thank you. Thank you. And I mean, I don't know about both of you, but every time I would be out in the world introducing myself as a fundraiser, I always got like two reactions from people generally. Unless they were themselves a fundraiser, I would always get like, that's so hard or, oh, sorry, I have no money. Walk away. Fundraising has become this f-word of the non-profit sector. And because we work with small organizations, we are specifically surrounded by reluctant fundraisers and I hear from them all the time. Well, it's like, it's icky. I don't want to sell my soul. This idea of cap in hand and we fundraisers know that that's not what fundraising is. But most charities and non-profits in our societies are not led by professional fundraisers. Most people responsible for fundraising do it off the side of their desk and they need to work on their mindset before they get into the tactics. I love everything that you said so far and I absolutely agree with you. That is something that Jared and I see day in and day out with so many of the non-profit leaders and funders and stakeholders. Your words are absolutely foundational to the success or lack of success. So you have this this aspect that you're going to share with us that there is a neuroscience part of what we're doing. And you start off by saying the stories we tell ourselves. Share with us what that means. So it's almost, it's interesting because we're not even aware we're telling us these stories. But what happens is our brains are brilliant creatures or brilliant functions in our body and they create shortcuts to anticipate situations so that we can make decisions faster. And what happens is there are all these little neurons firing off in our brain and the more we are, we experience something, they create, they actually like fuse together to create a shortcut so that information can travel faster from point A to point B. And this is true of it's not specific to fundraising. But what happens is these shortcuts are developed and they run our lives without our knowledge or consent. So 90% of our daily decisions are run on autopilot or through these shortcuts. And as I said before, they're developed through repetition. And there are stories we hear over and over again in our sector to the point where they've sort of become embedded in our brains and drive our decision making. And there are stories that there's patterns to these stories that are not specific to fundraising. So these are called heuristics or biases. And what happens is the more, so for example, like we have a negativity bias, which means we overemphasize negative and we under emphasize positive things. So one of my favorite examples is let's say you're sending out an email to your list asking for money. And let's say you get nine people give. But one person responds with a like, why did you ask me? Take me up your emailing list, grumpy grumpy. That one negative response is about equal to the nine positive donations we received. And that distorts how we see the success of that campaign. And then there's so there's all these sort of like, and there's there's lots of them, there's almost 200, or even over 200 heuristics. But then there's stories we hear over and over and over again in our sector or about money, that again, they're not just stories we hear, they become stories that control us. So the value of our work in our sector, right, that it's almost like martyrdom, like we shouldn't get paid a lot. We, you know, we're doing this not because the money but because we want to have an impact. The overhead myth, you know, all of these are stories that show up in how we make decisions without us even knowing that. And that's really, if we want to start to fundraise more effectively, it's kind of like letting go of the handbrake, right? These are, we have to release the stories and come up with new, more productive ones. Wow. So, so very powerful. If this is a glimpse into your book, I think, you know, shoot off the shelves here after this episode. I was talking to someone the other day about our childhood stories and our own money stories related to fundraising and how that is a neuroscience perhaps. I mean, I'm not a brain doctor. Absolutely it is. Yeah. Stories we tell ourselves, you know, even if it's like, oh my God, I can't ask this person for $50,000, that's a lot of money. Well, that's not our money, right? Like we're talking to someone that hopefully we've prospected, we've built a relationship, we've done the research and we truly know that they have a mission alignment, the capacity, the propensity and that they have the ability to make that commitment. Yeah. And there's so many. So, hey, it's like, not polite to talk about money. And for some people, $50,000 is unheard of, right? It is. And one of the stories that I find so fascinating in our sector is about who has capacity or who can give. Inevitably, when I'm sitting around a board table of a small organization or even staff, everyone always raises their hand and is like, I don't know anyone who can give. Right. What does that mean? And then I ask, well, do any of you give to charity? And everyone raises their hand and these are mostly charity workers or, you know, whoever. I'm like, so let me ask you again. What does it mean that we don't know anyone who can give? But we have the story of what philanthropy is that's reinforced and like, let's absolutely celebrate Mackenzie Scott and all these bigger philanthropists. But the more we emphasize those and de-emphasize all the other gifts, the more we create this story or narrative that we don't know anyone who can give and we stop trying. And what about that emotional tie? Like, is fundraising emotional? I mean, talk to us about this because I've heard it certainly from many individuals that fundraising can be so emotional. And I know, you know, back to that, you know, that nagging person that says, take me off your list or unsubscribe or why did you ask me this? That's what surfaces, right? So those nos I feel are way more emotional than yes. But I also want us to celebrate any amount of yes. Absolutely. And the interesting thing. So when I talk about this, the stories are autopilots. Another word for them can be beliefs, right? These are beliefs that are sort of governing our behavior. But if you look at what happens when we are faced with a circumstance. So I'm thinking about who can give or I'm talking about fundraising. It triggers the series of states in us. And one of those is emotional. So first, we have the situation, right? And that's neutral. That's like, you know, we're sitting here talking, it's observable. And that triggers a thought. So it could be the thought is, I don't know anyone who can give. But the thought in a very split second also triggers an emotion. And so if you think about when you, especially if you're in a small organization or if you're a reluctant fundraiser, when you get in have these negative thoughts, they're going to trigger negative emotions like I feel like a failure, or I'm not up to be the leader that I think I am, all of these feelings come up. And those thoughts and feelings combine to form beliefs, which is really what the stories are. So the stories are part thought, which is more logical and part emotional or feelings. And so it's hard to change if we don't address both of those things. Because what happens is most of the time I see organizations or people just try and like logic themselves out of things. And I see this all the time, like, I know, I know that I'm not right. And I'm just going to plow ahead. But if we do that, we're not actually changing those shortcuts in our brains. And we will default. It's almost like our brains are like ripping us back into our defaults. And so we need to address both the thoughts and the emotions and repeat them over and over again to our brains so that we have more productive shortcuts. Like we literally want to create more or different pathways. Now, when I hear you talk about this, it makes me think that as a leader of an organization, that you need to be spending a hell of a lot of time reframing these positive messages to your team so that you can help guide this. Because I think it is easier to say no, or I can't do something than it is to say, I can take a risk. And if I fail, that's okay, I'll learn or, you know, something of that nature. And so it's really interesting for you to share this process that's going on. We know it, we feel it, but we can't necessarily, or we aren't able to identify it. And so I can see where it just becomes a loop. Yeah. And then we, we aren't successful. And then we feel worse. And then it just, it's exactly. And the funny thing is like, there are some shortcuts to changing this. So it doesn't have to be super time consuming, but it does have to be very intentional. And there's a whole science back process, which we won't have time to get into the whole thing. It's kind of a little bit like therapy that I feel like whenever I do this with people, they're like, oh my goodness, I'm in therapy, but it's actually not. But the reality is the first thing we have to do is bring those unconscious thoughts and beliefs to our conscious level. And that does mean having open conversations to be able to stop and say, okay, wait a second, I'm hearing these things, let's talk about what's coming up. And then there's a whole process of there's actually, it's a two step process. The first is called synaptic pruning, which is to almost dissolve those existing shortcuts. And then the other part is rewiring or creating the new shortcuts. And both of those processes, the shortcut to it is also fun like brain hack, which is our brains don't always know the difference between experiencing something or imagining something. So if we think back to Descartes, I think therefore I am. There's actually a lot of truth to that. And there's been a lot of studies on how people learn things. And so if you, it actually doesn't take a lot of time, but if you visualize and imagine a reality frequently enough, you will actually create those neural pathways. And like I said, there's a whole process that I walk people through, but that's the short of it. And in a therapy session, I feel like I should say, and what I hear you saying is, right, this is fascinating. The skills we need to really implement some of these neuroscience mannerisms so that we can shortcut these positives. And as you're talking about this, Cindy, it was really hard for me to grasp that so much of what we do is really on autopilot. But then I picked myself in my car, driving. That is certainly autopilot because there are potholes and other drivers. And there's so much to consider as you're driving this beast of a of a tool, right? And how much of that is on autopilot that we just have become so comfortable as humans to have the ability to drive our cars in a manner with all of these, you know, gosh, I don't know, just just so many things to take into consideration. And every drive is different. You can make, you know, the same drive from point A to B, but the challenges are going to prove different. So that helped me realize, okay, if I do this in the car, I can do this. Yeah, when it comes to fundraising. So what are these skills that we really, really need to develop? Yeah, before I answer that, I want to I love the car analogy, because I use that a lot when I teach us because I think it's a very universal experience, whether or not you're actually driving the car. But if you imagine like we have these skills when we're driving wherever we go, but what about the routes we take every day? So I always before COVID, when we used to go into the office every day, you know, think of that the first time you're the first day you're at a new job, and you're driving there and you're looking at your GPS, you're aware of all the signs, your brain actually is taking in a lot more information. And I always say like, you probably don't have the radio on or your favorite tunes, you're focused. I remember when we used to have map quest to like for directions. But you're doing that for the first time. But after a month or two on the job, you're cruising, you're there and then it that is like truly autopilot because it's so routine that you probably don't even remember the drive. And I will never forget I one time I was going to meet with a donor corporate donor and their offices were close to my office. And I pulled into my office parking lot. Oh, right. What, I'm in the wrong place. And so that is what the autopilot is. So I just wanted to give that example, because I think it's very I mean, the analogy of driving is so very clear for people and it is pathways, right? But when it comes to the, sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, and it's the same for walking, right? So our friends that live in big cities and maybe they're like, yeah, I've owned a car in a decade, you know, walking, taking, I used to fall asleep on the subway. I do live in the city. And I used to take the subway to work and I would fall asleep and wake up the second before it was our stop. Because that's we and our brains anticipate things. So I absolutely yeah, whatever the path is, it's just think of that as the analogy of experiencing something over and over and over again. So your question was about the qualities of a great fundraiser, I think the skills. Yeah. So for me, the biggest skill set any fundraiser should focus on is curiosity. I don't know if you would even call that a skill set, but that is the number one quality. I think that separates good fundraisers from great fundraisers. Curiosity with your donors. And most of us start to know that I'm fundraising, but also curiosity with staff, with your board around learning. The more we can be open and start to connect the dots around things to me, it's listening. And then we start to really see opportunities, strategies that work. And yeah, that's the number one thing I teach for to be a really top quality fundraiser. Wow, curiosity. That's fast. That's fast. I would not have picked that one. No. But yet I would say that, you know, Jared, for you and I, that's allowed us to have 500 plus shows. I was meeting with a new sponsor just yesterday, and she said, wow, you've done so much. Maybe you should back off and not do a show every day. And I was like, are you kidding? I have so much to learn. I can't wait every day to see who's going to be on. And it was a really interesting mindset. And I can see this when we hear so often, you know, be open, listen to your donors. But I love that you've added why and that curiosity in that mindset. Super powerful. Yeah. And I mean, these conversations are deeply curious, right? You're listening. And I know because I have a similar process with our podcast, I don't actually prepare very much. I have a conversation with our guests just to get to know them a little bit. And then I show up curious. And we know that those are the best conversations, right? And that's exactly what your process as well, which is one of the reasons why I think we get along so well. But it truly end with donors. I mean, we take it for granted. Again, fundraising professionals would take this as something that, yeah, we're kind of taught to ask questions and get to know our donors. But again, most reluctant fundraisers don't have that kind of fundraising education. And even if they did, they still have to address the mindset before they can actually absorb it. And so curiosity to me is a skill set that is not unique to fundraising. So people feel really comfortable. They're like, yeah, I can ask some good questions. And I can have a conversation and not worry about the pitch and not worry about like, because that's one of my pet peeves, the elevator pitch in the pitch deck. I can't stand because it blocks people. So just show up and be curious and connect with people. And, you know, then we start to find our community. We start to find the people who care about our work. And those become our donors. So let me ask you a million dollar question. Can you teach curiosity? That was my question, Jared. I love that. I think so. I think that part of it is we have to address minds at first, right? Because we're not curious if we are focusing on like a very specific object, objective, I don't know why I couldn't say that word, objective or outcome, right? We have trained people to think of fundraising as coming in for the ask. Again, I know that this is not necessarily how professional fundraisers see it. They know that it's a cycle and we build relationships. But non fundraisers or reluctant fundraisers have this belief that fundraising is the ask. It's like a little snake bite. Like you just go in for it. And so can we teach people to back off of that and to just trust themselves and their instincts to have a conversation? I think so. So part of it again is erasing the old way to make space for the new way. And I've never met anyone who doesn't have the skill set to be curious. I think they just try and mask it with all these other skills or techniques that they think are what fundraising is. Yeah, you know that I love that you acknowledge our process. And Julia, we used to say that a lot about we are curious by nature. We are very curious beings by nature. We have no script for the show, right? And you totally called that out, Cindy. And I'm so grateful that you did. Which is why I love it. Right. And it's literally, you know, we pride ourselves. We're not a webinar. We're not a lecture. We're not teaching you. We are having a genuine curious conversation. And that is so important. Well, I have to give a shout out, Cindy, because Jane Garthson. I know she's here. I saw her. She's here, absolutely. And she's so grateful that we've connected. And Jane, you hit the nail on the head with this one. I feel like, Cindy, you are like, we're cut from the same fabric. And it's just fascinating. Before we end, and we don't have too much time, I want to make sure that we talk about your book. I would love for you to hold it up. I want to get a copy of it. And where do we find that? Yeah, so my book is called Raise It, the Reluctant Fundraiser's Guide to Raising Money Without Selling Your Soul. So you can buy it at raiseitbook.com or anywhere where you buy books online, depending on if you want Amazon to get your money, but you get your book quickly. Or if you want me to get more money, but it takes a little bit more time. But truly, it doesn't matter. The book is, I would say, like my labor of love to the sector. And so if you know Reluctant Fundraiser's, one of the things I was just talking to an organization earlier this morning, because it's midday here where I am. And they told me all about how their board was reluctant fundraisers and all the beliefs that they might have. And one of the things I want people to take away from this is that it's not anyone's fault. That these are bigger sort of waves of beliefs and stories that we have in our society. So don't get frustrated with your reluctant fundraisers. If you are a reluctant fundraiser, give yourself a break. Don't get too frustrated with yourself. Focus on what we can change. And yeah, the rest, the rest will follow. So it truly is what I want all reluctant fundraisers to start to learn and lean into. Well, we will add this. I'm sure, Julia, I'm going to allow you to share about the book list that we have on the American Nonprofit Academy because we would love to have your book on there, Cindy. But Julia, would you share a little bit about where the other books have come from and where our viewers and listeners might find that? Yeah. So we have a book club on the American Nonprofit Academy website. And we are really fortunate to interview a lot of different authors. And when we get really excited about something, we'll put it up there. And it's just something that we've really, you know, acquired a lot of different voices in the sector. And so we just thought it would be a great idea to kind of be able to link that through. So definitely we'll get your book up there. Because it's just, I think, such a marvelous approach. And yes, mindset is so important to life. And especially going back to our very first question, you know, the stories we tell ourselves, I think it's just amazing. And I really appreciate you coming on, Cindy, and sharing this wisdom. It's been another great episode again. If we haven't met, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, my intrepid co-host. Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors who've been here with us, many from the get go, which is, I don't say that often enough, Jared, but a lot of these people came to us when we had this wackadoo idea now almost three years ago. I mean, which like, talk about mindset. Bloomerang, the American Nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, the nonprofit nerd, fundraising academy, the nonprofit Atlas, nonprofit thought leader, and staffing boutique. Without their investment, exactly, we would not be here. So we want to make sure that we express our deeper guard. And we're so honored that they are, they march alongside with us. Wow. Cindy Wagman, the good partnership. I'm all about it. You have been a great partnership with us. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. It's been a lot of fun. You know, as we end every episode, we want to remind our viewers, our listeners, and I think ourselves, stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone.