 You're welcome back to the breakfast here on PLOS TV Africa. President Mohamed Abouhari wants the United States to consider relocating U.S. Africa command, also known as AFRICOM, from Germany to Africa. He made the plea during a virtual meeting with the U.S. Secretary of State Anthony Blinken on Tuesday. The president cited security challenges in West and Central Africa, the Gulf of Guinea, Lake Chad region, and the Sahel, as reasons the U.S. should consider the relocation. A security expert with years of experience in American law enforcement, Mr. Sonny Dikbolu, is joining us from Lebanon. Good morning. Thanks for joining us on the breakfast. Good morning. Good morning. You're welcome. All right. Yeah, let's, you know, have a, you know, get into this. For the last couple of days and weeks and months and years, we've spoken about our insecurity challenges. We've spoken about what needs to be done. And of course, there are times when they've also mentioned mercenaries and bringing in more support from outside Nigeria. When the president mentions AFRICOM, do you buy into the idea that America setting up its base here in Africa or in Nigeria might be the solution? Well, it's sure we have. We need anything now that we can use to help. You remember, AFRICOM used to be in Africa before, was the previous, the last president that kicked them out of Africa, and when you have a new government, there's always chances for improvement. Everybody wants to be better of a life. So I really support the president pleading for every help in every way he could get because the security solution in Africa, even in Nigeria, is getting to the tipping point. Yeah, it's not, it's not because, you know, I mean, yes, we need help. But is AFRICOM the solution, seeing the role that we, as a country, have also failed to play, will setting up, you know, the US-Africa command here change anything if we, as a country, cannot play our role perfectly? Yes, it's going to change a lot because when you have a base somewhere, then you have, it's like a tree, you have branches everywhere. So they'll be able to be a boot on the ground when there needs to be a boot on the ground in any way, everywhere. So there's always possibility that when you put something new, when you put a boot or AFRICOM somewhere in Africa, then there will be a rapid deployment. If there need be for truth to be deployed anywhere in Africa, including Nigeria. So, Ms. Sadiq Paolu, I'm really interested into, you know, finding out what the US response to this might be, because, you know, like you rightly mentioned, in about 2008 the United States set up AFRICOM and said that they wanted to host this in other African countries. They approached Nigeria, called that then-president Musa Yardwa basically rejected them and said he would not have AFRICOM, you know, be hosted in Nigeria. Other countries also turned them down, South Africa, Libya, other African countries. You know, I think there's just one African country that's, you know, allowed AFRICOM to be based there. You know, but looking forward now, Nigeria is in a worse place than we are, than we were in 2008. You know, insecurity is on the rise and the president is now asking, you know, for the US to basically relocate AFRICOM from Germany to Nigeria. Looking at the, you know, the past, do you think the United States is likely to grant this request in the first place? Yes, I think so, and I support it. Why do you think so? Because looking at 2008, look back. Look at the situation with the security in everywhere in Africa. Back in 2008, then if the president opposed it, 2008 is quite a long time ago. Right now we have problems everywhere and the problem is going to split to even Nigeria if we don't do something about it as soon as possible. The AFRICOM will be a great help. It will be a big help. And with the new administration in the United States, I'm sure and hope that they will relocate AFRICOM back to Africa. Yeah, but why? Because the United States is not just going to, you know, transfer all those resources, human and financial resources to Nigeria, to Africa just because they like our smiles or because, you know, they like our food. So you, I'm sure you are aware that countries work with interests. Nobody or no countries, you know, just act out of, you know, friendship. There has to be some level of interest. And so why do you think that the United States will be interested in this idea? Look, the United States have interest in everywhere, every corner of the world and they are there to protect their interests. This is not just monetary interest. There's a lot of interest. Age is part of it. If I can stop giving you age, if I can help you another way, instead of giving you age, giving you all this money, and then they don't believe in corruption. You know, all this money they're given to every country to support their security, some of them they can't account for it. So if the United States can decide to put on the ground, that would be a great plus. There's going to be a negotiation in everything. They're going to sit down on the table and negotiate. So let them agree first, then they work out the details. So I see where they're going to go from there. I can understand where my co-anchors coming from, because really international experts have said these chances of the United States relocating its, you know, African headquarters to Nigeria is very slim. And they consider, you know, even if you say that, in 2008, our security challenges, you know, was different for what it is now. And that's more reason why they should come here. But other people are saying, actually, that's the reason why they should not. And it just reminds me of the Saturday travel advisory that the United States issued to its citizens not to come to Nigeria. They basically want their citizens to stay clear of Nigeria because of the rising insecurity challenges. And we're talking about relocating over 3,000, you know, personnel, logistics, and all of that considerations. And, you know, the body language we're seeing from, you know, international experts, like I've said, from what I've read, you know, their thoughts on this is that it's really very slim. Now, even though the present administration of the United States seem to be, you know, more favorable to Nigeria compared to the administration of the North Trump, but it still is very slim. Do you, you know, see any logic to that? Of course. You see, the president know what they're doing, they add them straight because they consult a lot of people. It's not just one day waking up and say, this is what I'm going to do. They already consult, they consult with the Europe, they consult with some of the African president before the President Bukhari can ticket up on himself to stand up for all Africa. It's something that they already work out. So I'm pretty sure that he's going to do all his best to bring the African back to Africa because it's going to be a benefit for all, not just Nigeria. It's going to be a benefit for every African country. Help us clarify what exactly Africa is. Excuse me? Help us, you know, understand better what exactly Africa is. Is it a military operation? It's like, yes, it's a military operation, and it's like the United States is putting the military, their military somewhere closer to where they see fit that there's plan to be thrown so that it could be a quicker response that they'll be able to deploy, they'll be able to look through disguise and see all those deserts, what the problem that is going on around the globe. So they would advise the country and then work out details with the country involved and see how they could help. You can't call United States from 1,000 miles away when there's trouble in Africa somewhere, maybe in Guinea or even Nigeria, that you need help. And we've seen the result of private contractors. So if you decide you're going to use private contractors, there could be big problems. So I can see why they're trying to put more pressure on United States to bring a comeback to Africa because it's something that they'll be a quicker response when there's a problem in Africa, somewhere in Africa. Except, you know, we probably need to be sure exactly what the discussions will be like if this has been taken seriously. But, you know, setting up Africa from here doesn't necessarily mean commitment or 100% commitment to tackling Nigeria security challenges. It's simply setting up a base here. But I want you to respond to two things. Senator, former Senator Shea Husani describes this as an attempt at re-colonization. That's one. And then the second one would be the fact that President Mahmoud Abuari initially, when the talk of mercenaries came up, shut that down and said that we're not gonna be reaching out towards seeking mercenaries or help from foreign mercenaries, basically. So why is there a change of heart now? And do you also, what's your response to Shea Husani's thoughts? Look, to the senator, we told you respect. You know, we all have freedom of speech. And as a senator, he's in a better position to speak up. But this is a modern world, okay? What he's talking about is way, way, way back in the days, his past. Everybody need help in life. Are we just gonna look Africa to keep durating and keep all this, a problem keep growing every day? What's gonna happen in five years from now? Look back 2008 to now. So imagine what is gonna happen in another few years ahead. Nobody knows. So the better the earlier you talk to your problem right now is the better for your people. The president is a great leader. He took security as his number one priority challenge. So let us help him. All the senators should be able to help him, you know, to achieve his goals. So to be a better Nigeria. Once there is no security problem in the country, the country economy will grow. Everybody want to come back to Nigeria, go back to their country to do better. So I will advise the senator to support the president idea. So I look back at the news and I saw that, you know, just last year in 2020, Africa began pulling out some of its troops in Somalia and we know the state of the country right now, you know, Nigeria, some would argue is a lot, you know, better in terms of security when you look, when you compare that with Somalia, you know, but that goes to show that this issue of the likelihood of the United States considering to, you know, bring its troops to Nigeria is still very dicey. But really, regarding Nigeria security situation, what can we begin to do internally away from sticking external help? Of course we all need external help. We need professional, we need expertise. When you talk to Somalia, it's about fun. They pull out fun, located to Somalia security. And when you start pulling out fun, so people is going to start wondering what am I doing here? Everybody needs support. So Nigeria can benefit a lot from this. If they all sit, all the generals, the security experts, even the community, they have to reach out to the communities, to the state governors. So everybody is going to benefit from it because the security situation is, like I said, is getting to a tipping point. Yeah, but let me go back to what you think that we have gotten wrong, you know, in tackling our challenges with regard security. Where do you think that we have gotten it wrong, that we should be able to fix by ourselves? You see, the president and all the security people, they need somebody who, they could rely on, they could trust, it's all about trust. Because when you have a group, when you have a squad in security, that okay, this is what this challenges, this is what you want to do. They have to map up the whole area and know what they have to do. So it's not even because Nigeria is having problems. If federal government wants to tackle something, we have a state governor that is going to be a barrier. So they want the fund to come to them. But when the fund goes to the state governor, then they're going to be a lot of challenges and problems. What fund are you referring to, sir? Well, when you fund security, you know, in the security challenges, you have to find, like, okay, we're having problem in social, so Niger Delta. They need fund to tackle those problems. And then the federal government with the, through the state, they already allocated fund, then they're going to tap into that fund to tackle the security challenges. But if you can't really fund the security that you send out to go and do a job for you, then they're going to be a problem. Mr. DePaule, let me rephrase, just to kindly hold on, this is what I'm asking. In the last couple of years, we have had our security challenges grow beyond just Boko Haram. Now we're talking of ISWAP, we're talking of bandits, we're talking kidnappings, and religious or tribal clashes across the country. It's never, and I'm guessing you might agree that it's never been as bad as it currently is in Nigeria. The question I'm asking you is, why do you think we have not been able to tackle it and it has gotten this bad? Where do you think the Nigerian government has failed? Well, we can put economic challenges. There's a problem with our economy in Nigeria because, take for example, the kidnapped. You see a lot of people who don't have no job, who don't have no future. So they've been recruited. It's like back in the days in Iraq, you know? So they recruit people, innocent people, because they don't have no job, they don't have nothing to do. So the problem is that if the economy of a country is great, then the security problem is gonna be limited. But the problem with economy in Nigeria is becoming alarming. So everybody now is looking for alternative. So you see innocent people being recruited to join kidnapping, to be with the bandit, to go into the forest, start fighting, joining the Boko Haram. All right, aside the economy. Aside the economy, in what other ways do you think the Nigerian government has not done well enough to tackle security challenges? Well, apart from that, we have all these ethnically problematic problems. You know, when a lot of people, they spilled a lot of problems on the news, when you're talking about like Ariba, they're talking about the Southwest, and they're talking about the Ariba, then they start building, you know, building the drum on all those problems. So it's like, everyone they want the, everything is gonna collide together. Is that the problem? The problem with that is, you know, excuse me. Let's go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, I mean, I'm hoping that we can get, you know, to specifics. You've mentioned the economy. You've blamed the economy as one of the reasons why, you know, Nigeria is dealing with so many of these security challenges. You know, you've also mentioned people making statements on TV, you've mentioned Arewa. Are these the major factors and the reasons why, you know, Nigeria's security agencies have not been able to tackle Boko Haram and have not been able to tackle, you know, ISWAP and the bandits that have killed thousands of Nigerians in the last few years. Are these the reasons you would say this is happening? What I said earlier on is about funding. We need funding, we need technology, we need experts on the table. There needs to be a regional division, you know, what part of the problem that is where they could put a lot of boots on the ground and people, experts, where they could use drones, where they could use all this good technology. There's a lot of company, there's a new company, a Nigerian company that's coming up recently, which I believe that it was on the news a few months ago. So that could be a big help once they give them a license. And then it's gonna be incorporated with the government. They could use help, they could get help from that company because it's a great innovative, a great technology. So I believe that with all those equipment, with all those brain, then Nigeria will ship something because right now it's getting bad. And, you know, all the security challenges, they need to regroup. They just, you know, the government just put out those old genera, they bring in a new brain, a new genera. So let's see how they could map up the old problems and see what they could tackle. And they all need the help of everybody, including the security experts. Great, so you mentioned. Whatever they need to help them out. Great, and the reason I ask this question because I needed us to understand, you know, the role that Africa is meant to play. You've mentioned the economy. You've mentioned Narewa and statements that have been made across the country. And then you've also mentioned funding. So what role does Africa play here? The Africa is gonna be like a leader. They're gonna work with every country. So most countries is gonna designate some group, you know, like a squad that they're gonna be working directly with Africa. And then they're gonna make use of the technology. Technology is very important. If there's a problem somewhere in the desert and we're here in Nigeria, you need to be able to see the whole area. And you need to be able to see how you can deploy, you know, put on that area. And then you need to put intelligence, you need to gather intelligence. So and that is very, very important too. So Africa is something that they're gonna bring every country together when it comes to security challenges. It's not gonna be like all people like, oh, I can do it alone. I don't need any help from anybody. No, this is a modern world. You need help. Do you think Africa would agree with, you know, reintegration of ex-book or RAM into the army and forgiving their repentance, terrorists? No, no. But at the same time, we need intelligence. We need sources, okay? Africa, they have sources everywhere. They have sources probably within the Boko Haram, people that is reporting back. It could be done to agents, but they have to work at the intelligence, people has to work out how they're gonna manage sources, the resources, getting from the Boko Haram or from the, all this abandonment. There's always intelligent person, you know, spying on everywhere, everywhere. So, but to just give amnesty to a whole group of terrorists, I don't think they're gonna buy it. But the details is still gonna be worked out by both sides. So we don't know what they're gonna work out. So let's wait and see. Mr. Dikpal, I asked this before, but I want us to talk about this more extensively now regarding security solutions. And I'm saying, what can we do internally as a country to solve this? Should we be looking at state policing? What measures should we look? I'm not saying let's not invite Africa, let's not invite, you know, other foreign powers that can help. But what can we do from the inside to solve our security problems? Well, the federal government used to, they need to call on the state governors and work out how they could work the state policing. They need it, we need it in Nigeria. I know that they're looking at the other side of it, that there might be a governor that's gonna misuse those powers. But there's always, you know, a law that they have to work within. So we need policing in every state because with that, the governor will be able to deploy police to every area, maybe where they see there's a trouble. Let's take River State for example. So the River State, they have the challenges. And then now the challenging is spilled into everywhere. You see Kignapun everywhere. So if the state governor could have their own police, then they'll be able to protect the border, their own border. They'll be able to deploy police to everywhere, even the waterways and air. So they need funding too. You can't be policing without no funding. And then they're gonna work with the community and see who are the bad eggs in the community, how they pick them out. So because right now, the criminals, they haven't found where they're having their funds. They need to investigate and shut it down. The criminal can't operate without funding. They have funds to buy ammunitions. And now sometimes you see criminal, ammunitions, superpolicies, the police officers. So all these things, they need to go back at this official age. So you don't think that over time, Nigeria should have been able to afford intelligence equipment in the last couple of years. We've spent billions of Nairabind, super to Canoe Jets and the likes. But you believe that only when Africa comes, then we will be able to gather intelligence better and tackle our challenges? Yes, I believe that because when you put a leader somewhere, a leader that is credible, that you can trust, you could believe in, then they will do the job for you. Okay? So when you have a leader here in Nigeria, you have challenges. You have governors troubling the guy. You have senators. You have the travel people. You have everything. It's gonna be a problem. But that problem is gonna stop as soon as the African comes. How? Their own job is gonna be tactical. What? They're gonna do what they're gonna do. There's no governor that's gonna have problem with them. There's no any... So what you're saying is, what you're saying is that the governors and the senators are troubling, President Muhammad of Buhari, but when Africa sets up on the continent, then the governors and the senators will not be able to trouble them and we will be able to sort out our security challenges. You see the problem in Nigeria, we all know it. It's about ethnic, the city, the Yoruba Arewa group, I mean, Oduwa group. You have the northern part of Arewa and you have the eye mob in the east. So you all have those problems that is knocking and knocking and knocking. Look, when the African comes, we are talking about abroad. Every country is not just gonna be Nigeria. So they have funding, they're not gonna have challenges with funding because they already work at details with every country. So they're gonna use that funding to do their job and they already have the technology, they're gonna, it's a plus. The technology is gonna be a beneficiary to every country in Africa. If you're gonna look at funding to buy technology, you know how much it's gonna be. And then, do you trust the people you are giving your money to to buy technology from somewhere? You don't know what they're gonna bring to you. Mr. Jikbalu, the majority of our conversation has been what Nigeria has to gain, how relocating Africa into Nigeria will benefit us. But the United States, they will think about this logically and the question would be, what would the US have to gain from coming to Nigeria, investing all their troops, relocating them when their security cannot exactly be guaranteed. So what will the US have to benefit from relocating to Nigeria? Look, before they even come to this, United States already consul, United States they consul, they're gonna consul people like Exxon, they're gonna consul those big giant company in Nigeria and in some African region that okay, what is your problem? What area you have a problem when it comes to security? We all know they have the security challenges. They're gonna put everybody on the table. United States just gonna wake up one day and say, oh, come on, let's go set up in Africa. No, there are some group of companies, the big players that is even knocking to drop. They already put it on the table that this is area we have in challenges. The ambassadors in United States ambassadors in every countries, they know the challenges. You mentioned a few minutes ago that there are some states that they put on the US website that the citizens should travel to travel allies. They all know those are combined with the group of intelligence at each embassy. So is it that Nigeria will be the only beneficiary of that military partnership? It's gonna be a beneficiary to all. So what will the US stand to gain? That's what we're trying to establish. It's gonna be, because if you're telling me to come over here in a, this is not a softer zone, this is a big problem. There's a big problem, big challenges, security challenges in every way. So if you ask, before United States take, I even put it on the table, that okay, are we gonna come or not? Then that's a progress. It's a plus. Then now let's everybody come to the table and then offer whatever they're gonna offer to seal the deal and bring them to Africa. It's gonna be a big plus to Africa. Believe me. Can Nigeria finance the relocation of Africa to Nigeria? A country that seems to be in debt. Nigeria can't do it alone. Like I said, the president already consulped some African countries, the presidents. They already sit down, they already taught a barry. They've been thinking a barry for a while. It's not something they just whip up in one day on what to do. All right. So they already agree on some area. Funding from each country, what each country is gonna offer. So either through gas or through monetary funding, everything they're gonna offer, they're already working out. It's not gonna be on Nigeria alone. All right, thank you. Thank you very much. And we can't show that you're funding alone. So Nidik Paolo, thank you very much for joining us on the breakfast this morning. We wish you a beautiful day ahead. All right, thank you. All right, stay with us. We're talking poverty next and the national poverty reduction strategy, which has been set up by approval, has been given by the Nigerian government the vice president will be head in that team. And that's coming up next on the breakfast. Yes, we'll be discussing in detail the NNPC and remittances to the FAAC with an energy expert to stay with us.