 Okay, welcome everybody to today's webinar and it's good to see so many people coming in and from all over the world, as you can see on the map below, we have a wide cross section of the world population from four continents with us today. So welcome everybody. My name is Alistair Creelman, I'm in Sweden at Linnaeus University and I'm part of a project called Moonlight which is looking at the use of MOOCs and open education with refugees in particular and even for employability. This webinar is also being run in association with the organisations you can see up here, Eden, the European Distance and E-Learning Network, the Nordic Network for Adult Education and the Swedish Network for IT and Higher Education. So welcome wherever you've come from. I'll apologise first of all that I have a slightly interesting voice today because I lost it yesterday and I'm just beginning to find it again. So if I sound a little bit strange, I apologise but you'll be glad to know you'll mostly be listening to the people who are sitting next to me who can introduce themselves briefly just now. Agnes. Hello everybody. I'm Agnes Kukulska-Hum, I'm Professor of Learning Technology and Communication. I'm based at the Open University in the UK and I work there in the Institute of Educational Technology. So I'm going to be talking today about some of the projects that we've been conducting with the migrants using mobile technologies. So today's seminar is sort of divided in two halves tackling both mobile and MOOC approaches to learning, which I believe are complementary. Thank you. Tim. Thank you. Alistair. Hello everybody. My name's Tim Reid. I'm a Senior Lecturer at the Spanish National Distance University, UNED, in Madrid, in Spain. The Joint Pro Vice-Chancellor of Methodology and Technology and I actually worked in the program to set up our MOOC program back in 2012. So I look forward to discussing these questions with you this afternoon. Yes. It's very much about sort of one of the key issues, of course, for anyone in a situation of having moved from one country to another because of war or because of various economic issues and poverty and so on. When you come to your new country, you're going to learn a language and sometimes language learning is not available immediately. Sometimes you have to use informal methods. And that's the topic today. How far can we help refugees using mobile apps? Most of them have mobiles. Apps look like a very good way of giving some kind of support, but how can we build on that? Open courses like MOOCs are available very easily all over the world, completely free to enter, but are they really applicable for learning languages and what are the experiences of that? Using this webinar, I'd like you to keep using the chat down there. Give your ideas. We want to hear from you. Some of you have started putting links. These links are clickable. They'll be clickable in the recording. So don't be afraid to give us some useful links to other projects, other initiatives or services and tools that you know about. It's all part of building up a knowledge base for all of us. However, you do not have voice and video capability because since we have so many people interested in this, I think it would be rather technically challenging to let everybody be able to speak and be seen. So I hope you will bear with us with that. OK, I'm going to change view and let Agnes start. And she's going to start by asking you a question. Thank you very much for that, Alistair. So we thought we'd kick off with this question, which is, in your experience, are apps on smartphones helpful in language learning? So this may be your personal experience or it may be the experience of your learners that you're drawing on or teachers that you educate. So it would be interesting just to see initial reactions. So if you can choose one of the options there, which is that they are helpful or not, then we'll be able to see. So far, we're getting quite positive responses with people saying that many apps are helpful. So that's a good start. You're all kind of mostly positively disposed towards this topic, I think. However, some people once so far is saying that apps are generally not helpful. OK, so that's a good thing to know at the start. And in this short talk, I'm going to be sharing with you some experiences from our recent projects, supporting mainly migrants. But we're also starting to do some work with refugee learners in both formal and informal contexts. But today I'm concentrating on the informal mobile learning that we've been exploring through numerous projects. And this work that we're doing is part of the Learning Futures Program activity that we have ongoing at the Open University. So trying to push the boundaries of online and mobile learning and populations like migrants and refugees are excellent groups from whom we can learn and with whom we can develop innovative learning opportunities. So as I see it, the major challenge that we face nowadays is that there is a great abundance of mobile apps and other online resources that can be used on smartphones for language learning. That can be done in an informal way on a daily basis, integrated with daily life. So the opportunity is there. And people like newly arrived migrants and refugees can in principle take advantage of such learning opportunities. But of course, we know that there are lots of issues also involved. And one that I thought I would highlight today is that many people are not used to being in charge of their own learning. So the use of mobile apps and resources assumes to an extent that the learner is self-directed, self-motivated to pursue their learning and knows how to do that. And furthermore, such informal and often self-directed learning may be something that is complementary to the formal classes that people are attending. But it could also end up being in conflict with such formal education. So for example, the pace of progress may be different or the people's aims or the actual language that's covered in those classes or in those online resources may differ and so on. So the big question for us all is how can we support migrants and refugees in their transition to a new country and at the same time, a new way of learning? So as I see it, this new way of learning is learning through apps and online resources and it's new for everyone, not just for migrants and refugees. But when we do think about those specific populations, we can think about what characterizes them. They're learning on the move, often in the midst of very challenging events and circumstances. They may be catching up on missed education and therefore they may need to be able to work more quickly or more slowly. They may need greater flexibility. They may also be looking for new openings and opportunities, a changing direction with regard to what they previously were studying and what they perhaps need now in their new circumstances. The learning typically needs to be well situated, well connected to their daily life, their life experiences, their current needs and their new goals, perhaps the things that they will need to do in their new life. With regard to their prior experience of digital learning or learning with smartphones, there will obviously be a range of prior experiences and expectations. People have different life experiences in education. They may have previously only experienced classroom learning with a teacher. They may or may not be ready for digital learning in one form or another. And finally, we know that the journey of the migrant and refugee is a journey that includes some kind of movement towards social integration and inclusion. Perhaps learning the language can help towards that, both in classrooms and out in the community. So we've been conducting a number of projects, which I'm just going to touch on very briefly. But one of these is the project called Salsa, where we were really trying to get to grips with situated mobile learning in towns and cities. So here the emphasis is on supporting people as they learn and also as they explore a new environment, the town where they're now living, or the city where they're now based. So in this project, small beacons were placed around the town of Milton Keynes in 27 different locations. And as the learners, the migrants moved around the town, their smartphone recognized that they were near a beacon, and this triggered dialogue-based learning lessons on their smartphone. So they could listen to a dialogue, read the transcript, learn some vocabulary and other things, and then get some recommendations for further activity and practice. And we had a trial in which the learners experimented with this approach. It's proved to be very well received, very popular. So that's one way of looking at how people can be supported in learning in a city, as part of the bigger picture of how the cities in the future will be organized and how they can support newcomers. So perhaps smart cities in the future and all kinds of new imagined cities, as well as those that are currently in existence. So it's, I think, a full range of possibilities from what's currently possible to visions of the future. Another project that we have worked on was called Mazel Tov. We've written a lot of papers about this project to share our experiences. The project was looking at mobile learning among migrants across Europe in different countries and cities. And here, what was interesting is that we were looking at language learning in relation to other daily activities, and integrated, if you like, with those daily activities. So workshops to place with the migrants to try and discover what their main needs were, relating, for example, to language learning, of course, with translation, navigation, understanding cultural differences, health care, and so on. So looking at what resources they might need and what social connections can be provided. This project developed a number of tools and services which were then integrated and presented in a single app. These services that you can see on the slide now are where the main services. So as I mentioned, there was a social component in terms of finding people willing to help locally, a social network where you could discuss things with other migrants and facilitators, some health-related resources, a translation tool, a game for helping with cultural understanding, language lessons, small, short lessons based on dialogues, and navigation guides to help people find their way around the city. So all those tools and services were integrated within a single app and this was therefore this prototype suite of tools and services in one app, a context-aware app that could recognize where the learner was at any given time and make recommendations about where they could go or what might interest them in their vicinity of where they were at any given point. So a novel approach where the learner was given the opportunity to decide which tools and services they were going to use and they could also follow their recommendations. So we found that people had some difficulty knowing how to use such a complex but interesting tool. They were generally well-disposed towards it but we found different ways of supporting their use of this tool and scaffolding them with their goal-setting was one such approach that we trialled. So it became clear from our field trial experiences that there were different kinds of users, some who wanted to explore their environment, others who were particularly keen on communicating with others and wanted to engage socially. And so we wanted to help them set their goals and suggest how they could use the tools provided and that was an approach that seemed to work well. I'm now moving on to talk about a project that we then conducted with teachers. So this is important work because a lot of mobile learning projects focus on learners and teachers can get left behind or their needs may not be properly met. So here we had support from the British Council for this project to develop a guide for teachers. So it was going, it drew on the experiences of international students and other newly arrived visitors in the UK. Looking at their current practices with mobile devices and also teachers' current practices and bringing that information together to formulate a guide which focused on mobile pedagogy. So the idea that the teacher is the designer of learning but drawing on learner experiences and trying also to stimulate some thinking around how language is changing, how means of communication and connection are changing and how activity designs should take that into account. Also in a practical sense, this guide helps teachers to select apps, generic apps or specific language-related apps to use and supports them in mobile activity designs. And the guide has been used in various workshops, particularly by a colleague of mine, Lucy Norris, has taken forward this line of work and has worked with language teachers across Europe in workshops where they've been exploring how to take on this kind of approach. So finally, given the limited time we have today, I just propose a few recommendations here for your consideration. These are recommendations for learning designs that come from our experience of the various projects that we've been conducting. So this is distilling some wisdom, if you like, out of those projects. And I suppose what's most important is starting with learners' experiences, prior experience of language learning, understanding their learning practices, their knowledge of how to use a smartphone for learning purposes. And all that is the basis of any learning design. And then following on from that, developing resources collaboratively with learners, teachers and others who are supporting the learners. Again, an important principle for learning design for applications. And really also considering how to support individual needs. So something that became clear to us as we conducted workshops with learners and then had feedback sessions and interviews with them is that learners have very particular needs and that it may not be easy to identify them. So we may need to dig deeper to really understand what their particular needs are, which may not be obvious in an initial conversation or an initial workshop. Another aspect that's really important is thinking about how learning can be sustained. So if it's integrated with daily life, that's already a good starting point. But it's going to have to be sustained over time. And I think that's going to be important to think about how to sustain that learning through connecting people to a community of other learners, for instance, or finding ways for them to engage with their environment, like the city, different ways of exploring the city. We also have thought about how to provide help with situationally useful language. So that includes situations that can be foreseen in advance and people will say, well, I can predict that I'll be in this type of situation, but also the unexpected and the unpredictable situations that arise and what language do people need to deal with that? And finally, last but not least, developing learners' capacity to define their own learning goals. And as I said, that's often a new experience for the learners and they may not have thought about their own goals and also the goals of the group that they are perhaps learning with or that they're travelling with. So engaging with group goals and collaborative learning experiences which can be supported on mobile devices, but are not so well developed compared with individual learning. And okay, so that brings me to the end of this short presentation and I look forward very much to hearing your views and your experiences and if I can answer any questions that arise from this quick review of some of our projects, then I'd be very pleased to answer them. Okay, thanks Agnes. We'll move to another view and we'll see if we can get some ideas. Ask questions to Agnes in the chat, but also we'd like to get some answers from you. And you had a question there. We'd set up a question for you. Do you see any potential for specific apps for migrants or refugees or for those who support them? So based partly on what you've just heard or any experiences that you may have in this area, do you feel that there is great potential or are you dubious about this potential or perhaps feel that it isn't the right way forward? So we'll just get writing. Yeah, Alistair mentioned in the chat earlier that maybe you have to be app literate. Yes, I think this is a point I was trying to raise with regard to people's prior experiences, their learning experiences and whether they've had some kind of introduction to learning with their smartphone as opposed to more traditional means of learning. Someone says they're working on a similar project right now. If you've got anything on the net about it, put it in the chat. It'd be nice to get a link. Good to hear about that. You've got a question there from Elena in the chat. Yes, so Elena is highlighting the fact that people are already using many apps for socialising like WhatsApp and that's a good way to support their language learning. Indeed, that's something that is definitely coming to the fore a lot more. So when we think about some of the earlier projects in this space, they were less aligned with these new practices, but they definitely have become more important. Yes, I think things like WhatsApp is very often used for sort of mutual support and that can often be in their own language where they sort of support each other's language activities because I wondered about the apps you described, Agnes, was there supporting other languages because sometimes the meta language of an app can be a problem. Yes, absolutely. So the learners were able to change the language of the interface, but they also did use the app in small groups where there were speakers of their own, their first language, and they used a mix of languages. So they were trying to, to an extent to, for example, the Spanish speakers that we had in England, in the UK and in London particularly. They were, some of them were practicing their English but also some of them were then falling back from Spanish to, for particular problems that they wanted to discuss. So there was a mix of languages. And more ideas coming in there, you can see. Aha, yes, that's right. So, someone's mentioned an app called Bitsboard. That's not one I've heard of and I shall follow up on that. I wonder what that one does. Connecting language learners. I was someone saying, it's not only for migrants but exchange students as well, that's right. And in fact, many of the students taking part in our final project that I mentioned were students coming to study in the UK. So these could be exchange students. We've got a link to Erasmus plus OLS, OLS for refugees. OLS for refugees there. Unfortunately, the poll window here, it doesn't support clickable links. So if whoever wrote that link, if you put it into the chat, then it will be clickable to us all. There's Amar who's put in Bitsboard, that's nice. Yeah, there's one here that guidance from a teacher, the instructor, they need some, how to provide on the ground help, not just online, someone to talk to, do you think that's crucial or how far can you get with just the mobile and the app? It needs a network, it needs a context. Yes, I think that for the most part, people both want and need support that is typically provided both online and face-to-face. So it's part of their integration effort, their inclusion aspirations, I think also to be in groups with other people and how those face-to-face encounters. Which is not to say that you can't do everything through an app, many people manage to do that very well, especially if they have lots of experience of using apps for other purposes. And there's an answer here, I think there's a lot of potential, but what about access to devices that can run these apps? That's also an issue, some people have got them, some people just don't, they have a very old, an old-fashioned mobile that just does text. Yeah, I think that's right. It's certainly an issue that we've been grappling with in our projects and have frequently had to lend phones to the participants when the apps didn't work on their own phones. So I think that is a continuing issue. And of course, approaches that are more generic, like use of WhatsApp and other such technologies get over some of those constraints. And Harry, it's putting a link to an interesting Dutch project there. So I mean, there's a lot of good work going on on the ground in different countries. I think you can see there's quite a diversity there. Absolutely. I think a lot of this has taken off in recent years and it's really excellent to see this work going on. And I should definitely follow up the links. Okay, if you're worried about sort of not keeping up with the chat and everything, you can go back to the recording and take it in your own. You can just stop it and scroll up and down. So don't worry. We will now move over and I'll let Tim take over. But first, I have to explain a little bit about, I have to explain about Tim because he's at a conference and we're not sure about the bandwidth. So we've decided that Tim did a plan B, which I think we'll use because there's a little delay on your signal. And so he has recorded it in advance. Talk about that, you know, we plan everything. So I will just let the automatic Tim take over now looking at language MOOCs. But if you ask questions in the chat, the real Tim will be able to answer them at the same time. Language MOOCs for refugees. Possibilities and difficulties. I'd like to start off by looking at MOOCs in general. This is a phenomenon which has started in 2012 and really since then we've in the Atlas Research Group been undertaking different kinds of language MOOCs to actually explore and experiment with their possibilities for teaching and helping students learn and improve their second language competence. Now, some of the research we've undertaken in this process is published in the book, which I've got the cover here on the right-hand side of the slide. And this is freely available online. So if you're interested, you can actually go and have a look at some of that work. And it should be noted that there is a large number of MOOCs and initiatives and projects related to these questions actually being undertaken at the moment. On the left-hand side, you can see the list of language MOOCs that were available in February of 2017, 85. And the link there to the Moonlight website actually will give you further information about related initiatives. So the question that I think we should be looking at here are standard language MOOCs appropriate for refugees. So we need to think, I think, differentiate between clear MOOCs and language MOOCs because Kalela, as a lot of you may be aware, stands for Content and Language Integrated Learning, which if you like combines or embeds the language learning at the same time the content itself is actually being studied by the student. Obviously, the advantages here are evident because it enables the student to advance the content which they're really interested in at the same time they're working on the language skills, but it does require students to have a reasonable level of the target language before they actually can progress. We're talking about maybe a high A2 or a low B1 to be able to actually get to grips with the content. Now, we can scaffold and support this process in using linguistic tools, we can provide them with glossaries, with translation, et cetera, but it can be difficult for them. It's something that we need to bear in mind. Language MOOCs focus only on language learning. And as I said before, a lot of work's actually been done on this and perhaps in a way it might seem counterintuitive that if you've got a language MOOC, you've had language MOOCs with 20, 30,000 students on there with practically no presence of a tutor or tutor, that students are actually able to learn anything or improve their competence. And something we've discovered is that this can in fact take place and often does take place just as long as we actually are very careful in the way that the tasks put in the course are actually structured. And that's for example, in the peer-to-peer task, we have very carefully developed correction rubrics so that they can actually assess and evaluate somebody's production even if their production themselves may be a little far from perfect. So the question about the relevance of language MOOCs for refugees, what we need to bear in mind here is that refugees are under a certain set of very complex and fluid circumstances. They're crossing borders, they're traveling, they're going through moments of extreme risk and stress through periods of extended boredom. And they really don't have access to the sorts of computer resources that one would like to be able to study and learn in an ideal way. So that question really breaks down into two and those questions then could actually learn from more of us on the road, holding camps, for example, and what would need to actually happen for this to take place. And this really, if you like, takes the idea of support and scaffolding one stage further on. It's a question of actually helping them to access the external online resources from mobile devices, which is the typical tool that they actually have available and to actually help them to preserve the cultural and linguistic integrity while actually participating in these sorts of courses. And it should be noted that there's some research around at the moment. A classic example is the article, which appeared in their Times Higher Education supplement a while ago, which is a study of a group of Syrian refugees actually saying that they really didn't consider online learning as an option for them for many different reasons. I mean, the first one was that they didn't, if you like, there's a lack of knowledge or trust of who is actually providing this education where it's coming from, it's content, it's relevance for them. And also just the day-to-day life in the camps is typically noisy and chaotic and it's really not ideal for studying. And at the same time, there's a general belief in at least in the group that was questioned that the teachers actually providing this learning, if you like, are really not as good as they could be. So the approach we're adopting in the Moonlight Project certainly based upon questionnaires that we've given to refugee support groups and also conversations with refugees is the importance of actually channeling this learning and channeling via the NGOs and the refugee support groups so that they are accepted, if you like, in a better light before the courses are actually started. And also at the same time, it's also very important to provide the relevant scaffolding and support for these courses and to also highlight the recognition and certification element of these particular courses. So they can actually see that they are actually getting something from this process above and beyond just the knowledge they'll get from the courses themselves. So what can we do to actually push the envelope, if you like, on the way MOOCs, language MOOCs are developed and deployed? We're looking at this in a three-stage approach within the project. And the first of all, if you like, the baseline is that the MOOCs we use should be accessible from mobile devices. Now, there are some mobile clients available, especially for the corporate platform providers, but it's still required in a lot of cases, a decent bandwidth to be available and not necessarily so easy to use in an offline context or where bandwidth is limited. This is something which needs to be addressed. We're also exploring the possibilities of actually distributing, deploying the MOOCs via a mobile app or a platform, which is not necessarily a standard MOOC platform, which would open up the door to flexible access and use. And then, if you like, the third point is the relation of mobile assisted language learning to the MOOC because we feel like we can embed more in the MOOC and we can embed the MOOC in more and we're exploring that. But really the key point here is the refugee-specific adaptability and scaffolding criteria. What is it that we need to do to make these courses specifically relevant for refugees? Now, we've undertaken, as I briefly mentioned before, a series of questionnaires with the refugee support groups and conversations with refugees within the project and we've identified a series of criteria that really need to be included or addressed in a particular MOOC if it's going to be relevant for refugees. Now, I really don't have the time here to go into all of these in any detail, but basically here on the slide, we've got the key criteria at a general level. Usability and accessibility, if you like, is the ease to which people can actually access the course and whether material has to be downloaded, whether it's been designed for mobile devices and accessible in the sense of, does it provide subtitles, transcripts and aids of this type. Connectivity, whether the activities can be undertaken offline and even if you do need to be online, what kind of connection do you need and whether there are low-resolution alternatives or videos and images available. Linguistic criteria, whether above and beyond the basic set of terms, there are certain kinds of support which is actually required by the students on these courses. Methodological criteria, this is really a macro section and there are lots of different points here which need to be addressed for this particular course to be successful in its content and I'm not gonna go into any of these more than just noting that what we consider to be a key point here is the idea of the duration of the workload. The courses can't last more than four weeks. The weekly charge needs to be somewhere between three to six hours and specific activity must last more than 15 minutes. The courses need to be evaluated and accredited and should, if at all possible, form part of larger units of study such as the short learning programs which is initiative being handled by the EADTU. And finally, the cultural and intercultural and ethical questions is actually important that the relevant support and learning opportunities and activities that are provided within the courses are inclusive and respectful of the beliefs and online behaviors of everybody taking part in the course. So this was very brief but it gives you an idea of the state of the art of these questions and where we're going to at the moment. So the next steps for the Moonlight Project to roll out some language MOOCs for refugees channeled by the refugee support groups which we're doing now focus on mobile as a MOOC platform and the idea of recognition certification. And I think that's what you're going to be seeing us doing over the next few months. Thank you. Okay, we're back to the real team with microphone switched on. Okay, I hope you heard that loud and clear and now it's time to answer another question or ask questions in the chat. So answer a question here, ask in the chat. And Tim can answer them as they come in. What's your experience of language MOOCs as a teacher, a student? Did it help? Did it not help? Is this a good way of helping refugees learn about try to integrate into the new country, try to get access to education, to employment? I'll just make the brief comment while we're waiting for some questions to come in here that it's interesting that there are quite a few initiatives being undertaken by other European projects by corporate players as well to provide MOOCs for the refugees. But one of the things, for example, we've been doing in Madrid is actually meeting up with our NGOs and refugee support groups and we've had more than 20 now on two occasions and they're very kindly answer our questionnaires about this information. And it's actually surprising, quite surprising how little they know about them and how little information actually gets through to the refugees. So while it from perhaps from our perspective as quite a large offer, maybe from their side of the table, things aren't really quite so clear. And also under the circumstances, they're not really sure which of the ones they really should be doing. Okay, first answer in, yeah, I think they can be a flexible way of learning if they're contextualized and scaffolded correctly. Good question from Paul. Support is so important, same with the apps, there's Paul, yeah. Yeah, to answer you Paul, I completely agree. One of the things we've done with our questionnaires is target in on exactly what technology and data access they have. And for example, it gives you an idea of what I typed in the chat a while ago, the ones that are coming into Spain, for example, 100% of the ones that are in contact with the refugee support groups have mobile technology, almost 85% of them are on the social networks and use and use WhatsApp. But then when you start to ask for specific other platforms and tools, then they begin to fall off. Because it's not just a question of, okay, I'm gonna try to limit the videos and activities on my MOOC that require synchronous online access. I mean, some stuff can be downloaded, some stuff can't be downloaded, but it's also a question of trying to do it in such a way that the data footprint is as small as possible and flexible. That's a very good point. The second answer that's gone into the chat, it also depends on the kind of course, because if you're talking about a Clil MOOC, for example, when you're scaffolding language learning at the same time that they're learning content, then they would have to have at least a, well, being very generous, a high A2, more reasonably a B1 level to be able to get anything from that. And for a standard X MOOC then, I think you can talk about an A1 level. But if you want to see MOOC then, as we discussed the other day in one of our meetings, then that would have to be higher as well. Otherwise you just don't get any meaningful interactions. And of course, there is quite a good range of MOOCs in other languages, including Arabic. But then the difficulty is translating that, validating that competence and getting some kind of credentials out of it. Absolutely, to answer the question, the point has come up in the answers here. You definitely do need to have practice with the four different, the competences. I mean, the common European framework of reference talks about production comprehension of oral and written language. If you're not training these four competences, then you're not really developing your overall language experience. So if you want to include these different competences in a MOOC, then you have to provide the relevant tools for that to actually happen. It doesn't necessarily mean that the contacts have to be synchronous for that to happen, but it does have to be taken into account. And Alice is completely right that, I think that's why it's one of the important parts of the project that we are trying not only to recognize, but to credit the participation in the courses. Karina, my colleague. Question? Indeed, a very good question. I think it has to be transverse across the board. One of the things we're looking into is getting the refugee support groups to extend their face-to-face role, if you like, as supporters into an online environment. There also are support networks. I've just been talking to somebody here at the TechFugees conference who's got a big international support network and very flexible mechanisms for coordinating this participation. So hopefully we can get them on board with the project. But the idea of study groups could work. I think maybe that's one of the things that I particularly liked about the OLS project was that they had these online virtual meetings once in a while. And I think if that was moved forward into a MOOC kind of context, then it would be very valuable for them. I wonder if Agnes could return into view and join in the discussion. And maybe we can widen it a little bit and think about, now we're looking at MOOCs apps. Can they interact? Is there examples of MOOC app interaction apps to support MOOCs? Yeah, these sort of configurations of different devices and approaches is I think the way forward. But it may also depend on people having access to more than one device in some instances. So I think that's something to think about what's possible on the phone, which is what most people will have access to as opposed to having some sort of combination of devices where you have a MOOC on one device and an app supporting that MOOC activity on another device. But I'm definitely in favor of this sort of blended learning approach where it can be arranged. So that you've got the human interaction combined. It could be though that if you have an English language MOOC, it could offer language support on an app for those whose English maybe wasn't perfect. Sort of that type of link up. Sorry, Tim. No, I think it's a good point because one thing is that it does seem to be the case that there's resistance also on a mobile device that we all, I don't know if there's any data to support this or it's just my personal prejudice, but it seems to be the case that most of us have a small number, a core number of apps that we use on our device. I don't know, maybe six plus or minus two. And then when we have to take on a new app and start to use it, we might use it for a while, but then we end up parking it. It doesn't sort of become part of our day to day life. But for example, I mean, if it's understood for example that refugees are keen on certain social networks, and I wonder if it would be possible to actually run the MOOC from that network or from that communication tool directly and not expect them to have to come across and register into another kind of online environment because also the key things here, I think it's something that John Traxler talks about a lot is this thing that it's not like people who've always lived in a free European context so they can freely move around, freely express themselves online. When they actually come online for learning, there's a fair bit of reticence and they're not always so opening and keen to publicly to give their opinions. It's something we have to be careful about, I think. Also, somebody has the issue of the quality of apps in Arabic, for example. I mean, that's just one example. It's a feature of these kinds of resources that they don't necessarily have any quality standards in terms of the content or the design of the language interaction. And I suppose that's true of MOOCs to an extent as well. So there will be concerns, there are a lot of voices around quality and reliability of the information that's been provided. And Tina has put in a good point about how people really appreciate on MOOCs when there are English transcripts, subtitles. And there are many MOOCs that are offering the people the opportunity to do their own subtitles so that there's, I mean, you can see in TED talks and in YouTube, if you want to add subtitles in your own language, you're free to do so. And that gives an opportunity to provide multilingual support to MOOCs. Yeah, I think it's really, really important. You know, it's very easy to assume that everything is in English and that's fine and it definitely isn't. Okay, I think we're coming up to four o'clock here in Sweden and it's time to round off. I'll just change to a final view. You can continue chatting. I'll close the recording in a few minutes and then you can keep chatting off the record for a little while if you want. Here, we'd like you in a way, we could maybe have some little closing remarks from Agnes and Tim in a second. I just say that down here, you can write some feedback. Was the sound good? Did everything work? Was it okay? Feedback on the webinar. Bottom left, you've got some useful web links. Bottom right, you can download Tim's presentation and Agnes' presentation. Use the chat as you want. A little publicity for an event coming up that Eden are running in two weeks time, European Distance Learning Week and there is a webinar a day all that week. Some very interesting webinars with some leading experts. So just click on the link and you can find out more and sign up for that. However, yeah, some kind of final wise words. Easy to ask, but difficult to say. Agnes. Wise words, but I would definitely encourage people to get in touch if they want to collaborate with us. We're always working on new projects in this space and we've got a group of academics at the Open University working on migrant refugee learning and also part of a wider group on migration. So given that quite a lot of people in this session have expressed, have mentioned that they're already involved in work in this area. It would be great to work together. Tim? Well, yes, as Agnes said, it was difficult to try and say anything wise, really. I think I tend to reiterate what Agnes said. I mean, on the moonlight project site, which is in the web links, we've got a resources section. We're trying to document all the projects and initiatives we know about. So if your initiative isn't there, please contact us so we can put it there and just get in contact because I think the more that we coordinate these activities at a higher level, the more productive they're going to be. I mean, one of the deliverables, if you like, from this project is a, from the moonlight project is a best practice guide, not just a book, but also if you like, not a metamook, but a mook about the whole process. So if you want to get involved in the preparation or distribution dissemination of this work, then we'd really love to hear from you. Thank you very much. And don't forget our Facebook group. Hold mooks for social inclusion and employability. If you want to join that, then you're welcome and we'll be posting the recording there and it'll be sent out to everybody who registered for this webinar. So with my voice almost waving farewell over the horizon, I will close the recording. Thank you all for taking part. Thank you especially to Agnes and Tim for excellent contributions. I hope this brings some new contacts. And good afternoon, good evening, good morning to you all, wherever you may be. Thank you very much.