 Good morning. Welcome back to the morning. We are not done with the show yet. You have just finished watching Barry Moses interview with a wonderful artist. And I like his name, George Bush. Next time I shall be naming our kids after presidents. It's so interesting. But right now Tuesday entrepreneurship is continuing. And if you want to talk to us, please feel free to do so. And you have to go to our social media handles, which are right there at the bottom of the screen and put hashtag wine in the morning and then hashtag Tuesday entrepreneurship and also at joy underscore mochache if you want to direct a question to me. Do remember that today is a day we focus on business people. People who have, you know, found ways to put food on the table and also kind of trying to teach us how we can do the same thing if you're interested in business as well. So, Karibu Nisana and let us welcome Mr. Joe Onkayo. Thank you very much for having me. Karibu Sana. Thank you. Yes, we're glad to have you. Thank you. Okay. And so when we were chatting a little bit earlier I found out something interesting about you. You told me that you used to be a lawyer and then you did a little bit of, you're still a lawyer. You can't get rid of... Yeah, you can't undo that. You can't undo it. Exactly. And you did the legal practice for 10 years and then turned into an entrepreneur. Well, essentially I'm still a lawyer as I've corrected that. And I'm more into corporate law as opposed to... or boardroom lawyer, what you could call that, as opposed to litigants. I'm not much into litigation so probably we would not meet along the corridors of justice or in courts or something like that. Yes. And I'm still doing that. Oh, you're still practicing? I'm still practicing that. That's amazing. Okay, that's good. That's good because I find that interesting maybe before we can start talking about your particular entrepreneur venture. We can just, you know, let our people know why you had decided to stop or not stop but maybe why you started becoming an entrepreneur and also because what I know about people who have a different degree, let's say a doctor, yeah, it's difficult for them to drop it and then start something else. So I'd like to see where you're coming from. Where does that come from? In part, I think it's because of... I believe the future belongs to those people who are capable of diverging. You know, if you stick to the profession that you went to school to, you know, if you're still in the profession that you went to school for, then you're not growing as an individual. There is need to diversify, you know. Don't just stick to one thing. Move, see what else is out there for you to do. And I think the future belongs to those kind of people. There are very few people in this country and think of anyone that have succeeded because of doing what they went to school to do. In fact, if anything, most people are doing other things other than they did. And I'm not saying that you cannot make it in life if you stick to... If you're a lawyer, if you're a journalist, it's good to practice so that you don't end up wasting your career. But can you think out in the box? Can you see where you can apply your skills on a different field as opposed to the one that you went to school or the one that you trained for? I see, I see, okay. And so, yeah, you're basically essentially just saying, cast your net a little bit wider. Yes, yes, I'll say it as you can. Cast your net as wide as you can. You never know how many fish you can catch. It could turn you into a millionaire. You never really know. And I'm glad that you made that choice. But now we really need to understand a little bit about your past before we start talking about your business that is known as Hebbis Logistics. There's a little bit of work that you did in South Sudan that I thought was quite interesting. You did editorial work for the daily nation in Sudan. I think like many journalists, and like many, many, a number of journalists are lawyers. I think it's a normal thing for some people. And that's weird because I started with law and stopped on my third year of law. You see, so that's what happens. Many lawyers are either journalists or they have passion for journalism. Or many journalists are either lawyers. I think because we are too wordy. Yes, too many words. Exactly. So yes, I did work in South Sudan but I still do consultants work for different organizations to date. But then again, I felt that I've stayed out there for quite a long time and there was need to come back home and invest back at home. Suppose to come in back at home and looking for job or getting employed. At some point you feel that you've worked too much for institution or other people and you need to start one which is your own. So that's how I ended up in entrepreneurship. Okay, I see. And lastly, you also did something for the UN agency that's a FAO as a humanitarian sort of work that you did. I don't know if you're still participating in that. Yes, yes, United Nations mission in South Sudan or what they call UNIMIS. UNIMIS essentially is a benefactor to many organizations that are working within South Sudan. So what it does is you identify a project and then they kind of delegate other organizations to work on those projects as opposed to them working directly. So they're more of benefactors, right? So where now I came in is at implementation stage. So I was sort of a liars between FAO and these other organizations more essence in ensuring that we are going through the whole process of making sure the project that they are running are completed. So may it be monetary and devaluation may it be coming up with a legal parameters within which particular project is going to run? Right. And also implementing and make sure that the project actually does go ahead and doesn't just stop somewhere. From the conception stage to the very end. Perfect. That's interesting. And so it looks like you're a multifaceted man. There's so many faces and pages to you. You're humanitarian, you're a lawyer, you're a journalist, you're an entrepreneur. I don't know what else you pull out of the pocket but you can keep going. Who knows? Yeah, who knows? What's the space? What's the space? So you're giving time for more? Well, I'm open to any other opportunity that might come. That's great. And so let's talk about the great opportunity that's working for you right now, which is Hebbis Logistics. Yes. Yes. Maybe you can tell people what a courier service is because Hebbis Logistics is a courier service that actually works with parcels whether small or bulky, right? Correct. And before we go deeper into that, here is now what a courier service is. Essentially it's movement of goods. Okay. Okay. Simply. Yes, simply. It's movement of goods from point A to point B. Okay. So what happens is, if for instance today, at Y254 studio, you want to send something to Nakuru or Gilgill or Naivash or any other place, all you need to do is place a call to Hebbis Logistics. Okay. And they will come over, pick whatever it is that you want to send. From here? And in the next three or four hours, it will be to the other destination. Essentially that's courier service. That's a courier service. But then again, we are looking at it at different levels. There are things that we can be able to, especially for Hebbis, what we do is, these are fast moving goods. Right. Fast moving goods. Okay. You mean quickly? Yes. You know, I'm saying so because if you have things that you have bought from abroad, say China, and you want them to come over, we can still do that for you, but it will take a long time. Right. So our specialty is in moving goods that are moving very fast. Okay. From point A to point B. I understand. Yes. Now that we know what a courier service is, there's a number of places that your offices are based as one here. Yeah. There's Gilgill. Talk more about where you tend to, where you've tended to spread your wings into, I guess, whichever area. The mother company is based in Nakuru. That's the mother company? Yes, the mother company is based in Nakuru. Yes, the HQ. Okay. So it's at Resma Plaza. Right. But what happened was we realized that Nakuru interacts a lot with Nairobi, business-wise. In the sense that anything that you find in Nakuru, it originated from Nairobi. Yeah. So naturally then it came to pass that our clients, you know, we love to get clients from Nairobi for the purpose of transferring goods to the other side. Okay. And from Nakuru to this side. But we have towns that are along the transit line. Mm-hmm. So you have Gilgill. You have Naivasha. You have Gilgill, Naivasha. Mainly, those are the main towns. Right. Of course we have Limulu on the way and other satellite towns within Nairobi. Yes. That were operated in. So on that whole, on that line as you're calling it, you tend to just happen to drop them as you go. We have pick and drop centers. Okay. We have pick and drop centers. Right. So essentially what will happen is we have small offices that people from Gilgill can go and drop whatever they want to send over to Nairobi. Mm-hmm. Or people in Nairobi can go to our offices within Nairobi and drop whatever they want to send over to Nakuru. Mm-hmm. Then one of our guys will pick them up and within two or three or four hours or within half, the whole day, you know, it depends. We can have specification. For instance, if you want to have your, if you want to have your parcel delivered in the next three or four hours, we can do that. But you have to tell us. Mm-hmm. If you want it to be, to leverage your destination before tomorrow, you tell us. We have customers in our services to suit you, our client. I see. Yes. Wonderful. To suit us, our client. And we'll talk more about our suiting clients and satisfying clients in such a way that they keep coming back because that's essentially what makes a business successful. Correct. Yes. Let's talk about the inception of this hebbis logistics. Yeah. Because you know, you've done so much in your life and I feel like, I feel like you didn't even fear. I feel like you didn't second guess yourself because like I'm saying, there's so many things you've participated in in your life that I feel like opening a business is just one of the other things. But you know, for a lot of our viewers, starting a business can be quite fearful. Very sure. It can be quite scary. Very sure. And so those are some of the things we like to talk about when we're discussing the conception of business and how you felt when you started off. Tell us. Mm-hmm. I was hoping you would not ask that question. Really? Yeah. For simple reason. Okay. Really, I cannot tell you. I cannot tell you when the idea of certain logistics companies was born. I cannot look straight into your eyes and tell you, you know what? I considered A, B, and C, and then I decided let me start a logistics firm. What I can tell you, though, is I identified gaps within Nakuru, specifically where I told you the mother company is based. And I looked around, you know, just moving across the street. Nakuru is relatively a smaller town compared to Nairobi. So most people who are doing business there are either medium-sized enterprises. You know, we are talking about SME. We are talking about a person who is running an electronic shop around the corner. We are talking about someone who is a stationary across or a small pharmaceutical company. Yeah. And I discovered that most of these people are not able to transfer goods from Nairobi. Like I told you, the transaction between Nakuru and Nairobi is that Nairobi is the home of any commodity that you can think of, whether we are talking of chairs, whether we are talking of books, whether we are talking of medicine. So, most of my clients do not have capacity to send over or get a lorry to order a pickup or any other, you know. Yeah, to send them over because the logistics cannot allow them to do so. In any case, you can imagine someone wants to send two boxes or three boxes, you know. It wouldn't make financial sense for them to come over with their car or the way to Nairobi to pick two or three, four cartons of books and go back to Nakuru. So, I identified those gaps. Right. And that's what made me, if I can call it the conceptual stage or the German reason that I started the courier service because those are the people that I wanted to reach to. Okay, well understood, well understood. And so, you identified a gap in a particular city or town and you decided to work on that. Correct. And you guys, Taffadali, there, the social media handles, hashtag one in the morning, hashtag two is entrepreneurship. What are some of the gaps in some of your towns and cities that you as a young person would want to fill in? We're trying to get your mind rolling like an entrepreneur. What are some of the things you wish you see are missing in your town or an area where you feel like you could start a business with? Start your morning thinking like that. Let's continue. So, when it comes to identifying gaps in everything like that, I think that's a very intelligent way to begin a business. Correct. And you know, when this happens, there's challenges, there's ups and downs where there's some things you've learned along the way that you wish you knew in the beginning. Are there some things you've done which you just said, oh man, that was a blunder. Yeah. You don't have to tell me exactly what it is but you can just tell me the experience around it. Yeah, it's been a learning lesson. It's been a learning lesson. The things that we thought in the very beginning that we had them right only to find out that no, this was a wrong move. So, we had to go back to the drawing table and rethink on what we need to do. And we do that always. We do that always. Perhaps at the beginning, one of the challenges that we had was we thought when we were starting, I think we undermined the market. We felt that having a single vehicle maybe can work for us but we don't need to realize that it doesn't work that way. And then again, initially when we were starting, at the back of our mind we knew that it's move around in the morning or in the evening, collect parcels, put them in the vehicle, send them over to Nairobi and the Nairobi team will do the same and then send them over to the other side. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't work like that because there's a client who will tell you some of our anchor clients are lawyers and partly by virtue of my profession. I see. And so, of course, legal documents have to go back and forth. They have to go back and forth. They have to go back and forth. And sometimes that has to be done within hours. There's a document which is to be Nakuru High Court, let's say by two. So essentially that means that you have to find a way to get it to Nairobi for stamping and signing and then turn it back to Nakuru High Court and make sure it's there before. By on time. So you see, that's why I was telling you what we normally, or what we did, we realized that we have to carve, so to say, our services to suit particular clients. Those who don't mind, for instance, a pharmaceutical company will tell you I need these and these and these and you need to pick them from point A, B and C and I need them by Wednesday. So you see, they have given you a leeway of time within which you can, you know, you're not very much in hurry. Right. I suppose those want you to deliver their goals and services to them. To date. Right now. In the next couple of hours. So those are some of the lessons that we have picked along the way. Yeah, I see. That you needed more cars. Exactly. More drivers too. Exactly, more drivers and more cars. Yes. Go on, go on. Yes. So that's one of them. Another one is that you really have to be very, very, very careful with how you handle clients. Okay. I think more than, I'm not undermining handling clients in any sector. Of course. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, they're the ones who make the business run. Yeah, but it sounded like it's something so important. For us, yes, for us, for us it was very important in the sense that, you know, security, because you're dealing with people's goods, you understand? You have to ensure that their goods are well secured. Yeah. Okay, no gaps. Yeah. A slight mistake. Nothing, yes. And if you're living in a smaller town like the one we're living in, Nakuru, which is relatively way smaller as compared to Nairobi, you realize that we do not have many people who might be providing the same services within Nakuru. So, if you make a mistake, if you mess up someone's goods or commodities or whatever it is you are transferring, probably the world will get around way faster. So, if you error, it means the next client chances are that they will know. Okay? So, you have to be very careful. How to handle your clients, because it can come back to your company's name. Exactly. And I've understood that and I kind of want to talk a little bit about the pros and cons of Nairobi and Nakuru, because it's the way you've brought it up is you've made it, I've understood you to say that clients must be satisfied with what they're getting, otherwise it comes back to you. It spoils your name. It does. And being a small town, as Nakuru is a small town, then there are not many companies are doing what you're doing. The competition's not too much. And so it comes and ruins yours. Not in the scale of Nairobi. Yes, not in the scale of Nairobi, I mean. Correct. And so, yes, it can, yeah, detrimentally, just ruin your whole business. Very true. Very true. Yes. And so, what is up? And then after that, you could tell me some of the, I guess, the good things about... Still on the challenge. I think the first challenge that we had and which, for some reason, we didn't think through, was that... I don't know that you're familiar with this. Growing up when your mother was sending you, depending on where you grew up, my mother still believed that the only detergent for washing is Omo. Oh, yeah. Sorry, I don't know. So, if you're being sent for a different detergent, they'll tell you, and I don't know if it's Omo or Ariel, you know, something like that. It's Omo. Or go and buy it in a blue band, your prestige. I understand what you're saying. Yeah, and I think that's the thing about Kenyans. We do not move away from the people that we are used to. So, in this industry, we have had big-time industrial players, the big boys in the industry. So, for us getting into the market, the challenge that we had was introducing ourselves, because people had never heard about us before. How do we convince them that their goods are secure with us? Yeah. So, that process was quite tedious, and it took us time before we could get hold on the clients that we had. Right. But I'm glad that we did it. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. And that's one of the memorable challenges, I'm guessing. Yes. Yeah, was learning how to. Yes. And yes, sometimes, you know, and when it comes to business, and I still feel this is important, because you are a man that's doing business in different cities. I really want to talk about the difference when it comes to competition, because you've said when it comes to Nakuru, your particular career, what's it called? Herbis Logistics does not exactly have too much competition as it would have in a city like Nairobi. Yes. And I consider that to be a pro, a good thing, a positive thing for Nakuru. Correct. Yes. And so, when it comes to people who are interested in leaving the big city, to now try and go to smaller cities to do their Bieshara, what can you say about it? What would you say are the things that are different, apart from less competition? How can you encourage people more? What are some of the pros to put it shortly? Well, you know, it's not as easy as I made it sound. Nakuru in itself has got his own challenges also, which made it a little bit hard for us to penetrate. I see. It's not as easy. But perhaps I think for me, what worked for me is, like I said, Nakuru is relatively small, and at the same time, because, you know, I was brought up there, I've lived there for quite a while. So there's also that homeboy mentality, so to say, because I can walk into an office and I know so many people. That worked in my favor. I think that worked in my favor. But for a new player who is coming into smaller towns or any other new towns, because, like the way I did in Nairobi, I think you need to do your feasibility study on the market very well. Definitely. Very well. Do your feasibility study. Exactly. Because you need to understand, you need to know the players, other players that might be existing, what their weakness is, and what their strength is. Of course. So that... I don't think you're going to approach a client and tell him, you know, I know you've been doing this business with so-and-so, so I want you to stop working with him and come and work with me at this cost. A cost which is similar to the one service which has been provided for by the other players. So you have to look at maybe the costing, the pricing, your efficiency and delivery, and many other issues that you need to consider first. Many other issues. Before you get into it. That's very interesting. I hope none of our youth are getting discouraged. Please don't feel discouraged. Entrepreneurship... It's not my... It's all your fault. No kidding. Entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart, but for the strong hearted mind. It's not an easy thing to deal with. But we're here to encourage you guys to do so, because then again, we all know our wonderful Kenya is struggling right now with employment. So we have to find ways to put food on the table and close on our backs, right? Very true. And take care of family members if we must. Very true. Yes. And so in conclusion, what are some of the advice, for example, that you would give for a young person, because now we're not talking pros and cons anymore. Yes. Simply starting a small business. What are some of the ideas you can give someone who is listening and would need to hear from someone who is doing well? I think you need to... You need to assess your capability. Assess your capability? Yes, yes. First, in this sense, an idea, anybody can have an idea on how to go about it. I believe every normal human being at one point or another has thought of doing something. In reality though, you have to consider the possibility of you going through with that business to the very end and whether you can be able to withstand the challenges that will come, because I promise you there will be challenges. Of course. I think the secret lies in being able to be knocked down because you will be, but standing up and moving forward. Again and again. So every time you're drawn down, you stand up, sit on the table and rethink through and come up with new strategies. Probably if you can come up with counter-strategies. Go back to the drawing board. Think through from point A to point Z and then up. This is the thing. What works for me, I think, is I look at the end picture. The very end of where I want to be. And then what I need to do to get to that very end that I want and then now the starting stage. Of course, in between the challenges that you might face and how you might mitigate those challenges for those that are mitigatable. And then there is the capability of starting. Okay? Once you have thought through, if your thought process is clear and vivid and you're convinced that you can go through this. Or if there will be challenges that might pop up, there will be minuscule, then go with it. And they say it's not really about money, it's about the idea. Think through very well. Think through very well. Sit down, assess your capability of actually going through with this business. And if it doesn't work, get up and do it again. Go back to the drawing board and do it again and again. And also I think maybe trying to find something that you might connect with your interest. Because then again, waking up every morning to do something you have no interest in at all. It's really difficult. And you might do it with a lot of anger. And just... And do it easily at the first knock. Right. Find that kind of thing and follow Ms. Don Kale's advice. I think it was perfect advice. And unfortunately we do have to wind up our show. Did you find that we discussed everything or was there something you'd like to throw in? Pretty much covered. But for those who might be having any other questions in that regard so get me on Twitter at Don Kale. Okay. Oh, that's your camera. Please look into it and say all your social media handles. Well, not many, but you can get me at Don Kale. Okay. That is it. It's okay. I'm at join.com on Twitter only. But this is Y254 channel. You can find them absolutely everywhere. Social media handles are down there. Coming up next is another interview by our new presenter, Alex. I hope that you guys do enjoy. And thank you so much for tuning in. And I hope you've had a good time and enjoyed and learned something from the discussion that we have had. Do stay tuned in. My name is Joanne Muchache. Find me on Joanne underscore Muchache on Twitter alone.