 Good day internet. Good day internet. Good day internet. Oh My friends, it's Monday and I was about to despair. I was about to say no. I can't do it It's a Monday, and then I remember Chris Ashley was on the show today, and it just got me back up and pumped That's right. I stepped in the house and I looked around. I was like man, this place looks familiar Yeah, yeah, man, you've been you've been running this town. This is great. It's all good. I'm happy to be here Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad that you've been able to help us out so much lately. It's awesome man, if it wasn't so fun, I'd be like My toe I can't talk All right, we ready to go yeah, let's do it. Yes, let's get rolling in three two This 10th year of Daily Tech news show is made possible by its listeners. Thanks to all of you that includes Reed Fishler You know who you are Larry Bailey you too, Michelle Serju. You're the best and new patrons welcome Osama and TS Bob on this episode of DTNS Getty Images plays it safe with AI I fix it tears down the new iPhone will tell you what they found inside and you can now talk to chat GPT with your voice And it'll talk right back to you This is the Daily Tech news for Monday, September 25th 2023 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt and somewhere around your nation's capital right to your backyard your boy Chris Ashley and This shows produce sir Roger J Chris you said your nation's capital below someone's in like Belgium. Well, you know what? Christmas pretend you're right Your favorite nation, no I can't even say that either. Yeah, I have to fix it. I forget No, it's good to have you Chris Ashley. Welcome back again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you It is it's free preview week. Yeah, this is awesome. It's a perfect week So everybody can see what kind of foolishness goes on in here now. I was telling you earlier I wish people could see more people should see the foolishness that goes on in the background So, you know, you guys got to see this awesomeness that is this show Well, thank you, man. I appreciate that. Let's get right on to the quick hits If you're wondering, hey, who's providing the AI for those Amazon upgrades to the smart assistant that we mentioned last week Well, sounds like it's at least in part anthropic makers of the Claude chatbot Amazon is gonna take a $1.25 billion minority stake in Anthropic with an option to increase that to four billion if they want Google also has an investment in anthropic So it's not like Amazon's slowly gonna take it over at least not without Google cooperating Anthropic will use AWS as its cloud provider including AWS Tranium and inferential chips for running its models and AWS customers will get access to Anthropics models and while those guys are in investing outside Who always decided to invest inside and created its own 5g chip in response to restrictions on 5g Equipment and technology by the US but a launch event Monday The company did not mention the 5g chip on the Mate 60 pro phone in which it ships While we did announce a sedan a high-end SUV electric cars new wireless earbuds a smartwatch a tablet and more Yeah, it was a big old announcement for them, but no mention of that 5g man. I won't talk about it I Sorry They just blew my mind that they those are some really cool things to announce and they're everybody's upset didn't announce Yeah, yeah, yeah electric cars whatever Metis connect conference has come in this Wednesday and the Wall Street Journal says it has seen some internal chats indicating that one of the announcements will be Gen AI personas like generation AI like Gen Z but AI Anyway, their chatbots geared toward engaging the youths one of them is apparently a sassy robot Inspired by Bender from the TV show Futurama Does this sound cringy I don't know we'll find out Wednesday, I guess Well, hopefully Pegatron has the same resilience as Meadow because they've announced that they've cancelled all three shifts That is plants in Tamil Nadu due to a fire Pegatron makes iPhones for Apple and told routers. It did not expect any significant financial or operational impact. That's good It's good that it said that but yeah, if there's a little delay in shipping Yeah, I wonder how they pull that off. Maybe it's insurance Yeah, or maybe it wasn't as bad as it looked and they're just being over cautious. Who knows Speaking of India Bloomberg sources say India will loosen planned restrictions on imports of laptops Tablets and other hardware to give companies time to prepare for those restrictions Remember, they were going to require you to make most of your laptops in India And then have to get a license if you're going to import them They're they're loosening that up companies now just need to register with an import management system starting November 1st But they won't have to limit the imports yet as companies begin manufacturing more devices inside India Then India says the limits will slowly kick in again according to these sources. Yeah All right, so we talked a while back on DTS about Getty images saying it would not use AI in any of its products until it understood the legal risks apparently they have finished figuring out the legal risks and Getty images worked out the details for Generative AI by Getty images they're partnering with NVIDIA on this it is trained Exclusively on Getty's library of licensed photos That's meant to prevent questions of copyright that exist on models trained on data taken from the open internet Get he's like we have the rights to all this stuff. So there's no question that we have the rights We're not training it on anything else, but that also means the Getty model was trained on a more limited data set Now Understand that photos created with the tool will not be included in stock content libraries from Getty images or iStock and Getty Will pay creators if it uses their images to train its model Sharing revenue generated from the tool the tool also actively prevents you from naming actual people in its prompts Later this year Getty will add the ability for customers to add their own data to the model to generate images in their brand style This is this is similar to what adobe's been doing with firefly where they they trained it on their own licensed images from creative suite and creative cloud Microsoft Recently announced it's going to foot any copyright legal bills for its clients Even though they're using open AI's products, which were trained on the open internet everybody's taking a different approach to this but Getty's taken one of the more conservative ones and I wonder what you think of the trade-off here Chris because on the one hand It sounds like they're leaning towards being ethical saying, you know, we're not we're not ethical but also avoiding lawsuits We're not going to risk, you know violating someone's copyright And and have to test fair use in this totally new arena of legal questions But it also means that you won't be able to do as much with this tool because it's limited to that data set I think this is one of the best examples in tech at least of threading the needle i've seen in a while Because I think this is like a really good position to put themselves in they really kind of short up themselves from being sued They also announced before anybody had questions about it that they will take care of anybody whose images Are leveraged in this endeavor And they provide a service that a lot of people could benefit from I mean I don't see any wrong in this and even if they limited Uh Nature or data points the reality is this is still pretty limited in general You know, I mean is as far as how good the images work Or look and so far it seems like these images are haven't proved over the previous time So I think this is actually a really good start Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way because it's limited. It actually might be better at what it does Uh, I know the the verge Took it for a test run and said it did seem really good at creating stock photo like images Uh, they did one with a ballerina in there and they said, yeah Didn't have six arms and six legs It looked like a stock image ballerina. They said the illustrations weren't as good Uh, the photo the photo realistic stuff was good The the the illustration stuff didn't didn't work as well for them But maybe that's why getty wants to let you add your own data to the model So you could you could say hey, we own this logo Please train on that and then we can manipulate that and we're going to illustrations and stuff But yeah, maybe this will be better for its purpose. Yeah, and the thing is I have to admit I never really appreciated this this service to begin with I never thought it was a big deal like who cares, but I tell you what's made me Um, kind of come around on this is just playing starfield. You know, this game is massive massive massive game And um, what I'm noticing is quite a few characters NPCs look alike And I'm like how awesome would they have benefited? From being able to use this just to give us some more variation now I'm not blaming them. It's a massive game. You have a lot of characters But I could just see the potential on something like this man We've always talked about movies and stuff like this But yeah, um, but yeah, I would have really loved to see some I'll let a little bit more variation and a lot of the character images in this game Yeah, and I think you're right that getty is smart here to say look what people use this for stock images Uh, and even if our data set is limited to stock images. Well, that's what our tool is for We don't need our ai to be able to make other things to come up with other uses We're not trying to be open ai. We're not trying to be an innovative edge case Uh, we're just trying to make our stock image thing better And so if we can train it on stock images so it makes great stock images Well, it may be better at that than chat gpt or not chat gpt dolly Because it's it's more specifically trained and it exposes them to less legal risk and You know, we'll we'll see what the checks look like but they're paying the artists whose images were used to train this So theoretically everybody wins here. Yeah, and uh, we should not understate the fact that they said they're not going to use Generated images to train on because somebody has the same parent I have a computer taken over. Yeah, uh, we still don't know how much this is going to cost You will get a perpetual worldwide unlimited right to the image just like you you would if you do a royalty free image So that's nice. You you get the maximal rights out of this And they're going to have an api so you can integrate it in the workflow So yeah, uh once once we know how much it is and it won't be cheap because it's getty But hopefully it's reasonable. Yeah Yeah, I think it'll be good All right, folks with every new apple iphone comes a new iFixit teardown Where we find out a little bit about what's inside that iphone get an assessment of repairability Here are some of the findings the 15 pro has the qualcomm snapdragon x 75 g modem in it Uh, we we had heard that apple was not using its own modem tech yet and this confirms that Uh, the snapdragon x 70 uses a little ai to improve speed and latency and and apparently this this modem Delivers a lot of people have already done speed tests and found that it is faster on the same 5g network as a 14 because of the modem Uh, also a tiny bit bigger battery 4,422 milliamp hour battery confirmed by iFixit and It keeps something called the mid frame From the iphone 14 the mid frame is a frame inside the phone That allows you to open the phone from either side front or back And access the components basically the components are mounted to the mid frame You could also think of it as a central chassis iFixit refers refers to it that way as well The only downside here is the 15 pro has it But the components are all on the display side So if you remove the screen to replace the battery, which you would have to do with the 15 pro Don't have to do that with the regular 15 just the 15 pro You're it's a trick your operation if you screw up a little when you're removing the glass You're less likely to make any kind of permanent damage than if you mess with the screen Uh, but iFixit still gives him credit like the fact that you can come at it from either side is still an improvement The big ding on this is parts pairing Parts pairing is something that's not new they did this with the 14 as well But it means you need to buy your parts from apple Or they will not have all the functionality that a part should have You not only have to buy the part from apple You also have to verify your repair through apple technical support and because of that some repairs Just don't work some do But some don't unless you're getting that part from apple iFixit took the lidar sensor out of an iphone 15 pro So this wasn't like some weird third-party cheap part They took it out of an iphone 15 pro put it in another iphone 15 pro And the camera app kept crashing because that lidar sensor was not properly paired It was all the software problem not a hardware problem So the upshot is the iphone is easier to repair than it used to be but software makes that ease contingent on involving apple In your repairs for parts and verification So iFixit says we would give it a 7 out of 10, which is a really high repairability score It's much more modular even the microphone is now modular But because you have to go through apple for so many things to make stuff work They're giving it a 4 out of 10 chris. Yeah The one thing I wanted to do is make sure people pay attention to why these type of breakdowns are important Because you really want to understand a Can you get your phone fixed or are you stuck, you know turning it in and getting another phone Be are you getting what you pay for? You know, so I think sometimes Uh people may hear these type of iFixit articles, but never really actually appreciate why it's important that what these guys do So I just wanted to take a second and put that out of there Yeah, if if you have apple care and you're never going to take your phone to be fixed anywhere But an apple store none of this matters to you this matters to the people Who either want to fix it themselves and there's a lot of you out there who want to do that Or you want to be have the option to go to a third party because it's it's more convenient Maybe you don't have an apple store close to you Or it's cheaper because you just need a display swapped out or something. Yeah out of warranty all of those things come into play there So, um, so now let's talk about the substance of this. I I you know I don't want I don't think people should write out of the gate beat apple up for some of the design decisions here because Unfortunately, I fix it doesn't know And I wish they would kind of be up more just kind of make that a little bit more obvious is like, you know Why they might have went this way why they didn't you know, did they ask why they guys went this way versus not that way? um, you know On the on the face of it. Yeah, it definitely sounds like maybe an added Step to put in there to kind of corner the repair market Um, that would be an obvious and you'd be naive not to think at least have that in your mind but who knows maybe there's a You know apple has a reputation to protect, you know And so if there are people out there fixing these phones or and then you know Putting in janky parts and then selling them people aren't going to say hey janky part dealer You broke my phone. They're going to go blame apple for that So it's kind of a catch 22 when it comes to some of this stuff Especially when you have a brand as big as theirs to protect at this point. So I just yeah Yeah, go ahead. No. No, I was just gonna say I I fix it does refer to the fact that they think what apple's doing with the parts pairing is saying well, you won't possibly Make your repair to the precision we require If you don't use our parts and go through our validation system and I fix it's like You know what not every repair needs to be as precise as the factory, right? Yeah, it's very apple to be like Yeah, but it won't be perfect. We need to keep it make make it perfect And you know, it doesn't always have to be it just needs to work, right? Yeah, and you know, a lot of us have that same threshold It's like building a cutting board and building a house. This is like, yeah big difference. They're two different things Talking from experience right there. Yeah Yeah, I I feel like I feel like I fix it does a pretty good job of of giving apple the benefit of the doubt here And and giving them kudos and saying like hey look That men frame on the 15 pro may put a lot of the components on the display side But it could be because that camera is so thick and we get right there just nine trade-offs and stuff Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to yeah, I like their reviews. I I tend to peak at them a lot and uh, you know, but I I guess I just get paranoid in today's world where everything gets hyperbolic and once it's Written and redone then all of a sudden it's like, you know gets blown out of proportion Sometimes and many people may pick this up second hand as opposed to looking at the original right up from them in the first place Yeah, for sure because I fix it's very uh calm in its assessment, but somebody Exactly they'll pick the piece for the headline. So yeah Well, folks, uh, if you got something to tell us about if you're like, hey Here's something that could help you understand a little more about this topic or that topic Because you happen to work in that area you got experience in that area. We love to hear from you You can get in touch with us on so many platforms We are at dtns show on x also on mastodon We're at the mstdn.social platform at daily tech news show on tiktok and dtns picks on instagram and threads Look us up wherever find social media is exchanged Open ai launched a new version of chat gpt that you can prompt by speaking And it'll talk back to you in a good way Open ai is rolling out a new text to speech model in its ios and android apps that created Human-like audio from just text and a few seconds of sample speech and it's actually very natural sounding They give you five different voices Another new feature lets everyone upload a picture and ask chat gpt questions related to it For instance, take a shot of a broken faucet and ask how do I fix this or some food ingredients and ask what can I make You can use a drawing a drawing tool to help make the query clear like circling a part of the image For example, the new features are coming to paying chat gpt users first You should see it over the next two weeks if you pay for the service Everybody else all you freeloaders like me We'll get it soon after according to the company Open ai is using the whisper model for this it provides text to speech and partnerships to In fact spotify is planning to make some use of this to translate podcasts into other languages So they'll be using a model to do the translation of a podcast and then using This text to speech to keep the unique sound of podcaster voices Now again, open ai is not letting just everybody do this, but they're working directly with spotify on particular podcasts to do this This this is uh, this is what everybody wanted when when they got tired of of chat gpt's You know when they got over the newness of chat gpt. It was like, why can't I just talk to it? Well, now you can right and I the one thing that stood out to me the most is Is this a precursor to all the phone manufacturers just saying, okay, we're done with our own assistant It this is going to be the next thing for us a la My my baby girl cortana is gone now. So it just it just makes sense to me to to you know expand this Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people were wondering if this would replace Amazon ever would replace google voice would replace siri When you think about it though amazon's partnering with anthropic, right? We heard about that in the quick hit So amazon's you going to do this, but they're going to do it with a different company Google has its own right they have barred and and all of their own large language models So they're also doing it with google assistant just on their own apple being apple Secretly Reportedly has their own large language models being developed. It doesn't sound like they've bought anyone specific But they they have bought smaller companies in the past. So they've cobbled something together That leaves microsoft, which is the one using open ai's products And it and it makes me think that the reason you lost cortana chris Is because they knew this was in the pipeline and they're like, well, we don't need to do that anymore We're going to have this right which would make perfect sense If they rename it to cortana extra points for you But uh, you know the use cases they presented here also makes sense and I I think uh, I find it be pretty good For you know for cooks in the kitchen that uh, maybe you're feeling uninspired Why not, you know grab a bunch of stuff and say what can I make with this? On the flip side, I hope it's you know, it's an honest thing and saying no your ingredients are trash But uh, yeah, no that use case is awesome I've used image search. I've definitely seen something that looked like the most killer wasp on earth So, you know, I would definitely like hey chat gpt. Am I in danger with this image? You know, if this thing gets me Am I you're my fittest? Yeah, yeah I I I was thinking search and and recognition and stuff like that And I was glad Joanna stern brought up these other examples that you mentioned, you know, like hey, this hose is is hosed How do I fix it? Right? Uh, you know again Uh, you do want to have a little more confidence in the veracity of the advice that the the large language model is giving you But if it can say like, oh, yeah, I know what that here's here's the part you need Here's a video that'll walk you through how to fix it or or I can just walk you through how to fix it here are the steps Yeah, I I think that's great And it is it is interesting that open ai is pitching this as Chat gpt can now hear talk and see because it can see the images. Yeah, and I could definitely see Opportunity even when the rod and I are doing some woodworking sometimes, you know, we've fully switched over to away from the Imperial and we went metric because it is that much it is just way simpler And I started too late in life to go figure out what five sixteenths and all of that foolishness looks like And we were building a table here a workbench and All and we needed specific specifications for because we were mimicking one that already existed and we asked a Siri and she struggled now to be fair bar did find the answer for the dimensions of the top but You know being able to You know take something like that and then go a little further and say okay now. What should my cuts be, you know Accounting for you know thickness and material. These are the things that kind of resonate to me as as far as something like this goes Well before before we wrap this up Joe did record a little bit of what Joanna Stern demonstrated in the wall street journal So let's let's listen to that because I think it is impressive how natural it sounds It was it was about how we can talk to each other now That's a compelling topic the evolution of ai and its ability to communicate in more conversational ways has changed how people interact with technology It's not just about getting information anymore. It's about engagement conversation and sometimes even companionship So that the first voice was Joanna's You didn't know She also sounds very natural because I've met her. She's a real human But that that second voice that's pretty natural. Yeah, that was pretty good A little something that that tips me off knowing but maybe if I didn't know I wouldn't recognize it. I don't know Yeah, I agree Well nasa's seven-year osiris rex mission has returned to earth that landed sunday Carrying a bunch of rocks and dust from a near-earth asteroid called ben new Uh, yeah for the first time we sent a robot out to an asteroid to scoop up some dirt and bring it back Capsule touchdown in the desert at the department of defense's utah test and training range with around 250 grams of material nasa says it contains some of the oldest rocks in our solar system And they're going to use that to help scientists understand Just what things look like in the solar system, you know, four and a half billion years ago Whether organic material necessary for life appears elsewhere. Is it common elsewhere in the solar system? and We also may be able to tell if the water on earth Originated on asteroids like ben new because that's one theory is that asteroids carrying water crashed into earth and created the oceans here And if the ions are the same uh in any water they find in this dirt on from ben new Then that would be a pointer towards that being true Yeah, I just got one question I need them to figure out all the materials that are on that planet because I want to know what I can craft What it comes if I land there and Farm some materials. Can I craft a nice spaceship or something out of it? Now? This is really really cool Where are you getting this idea from chris? I just I wonder Yeah Yeah, I'm at all joking aside The inspiration for the video games is the is the the real idea of going to an asteroid and mining it You know to help either bring materials back to earth or create things in space So that you don't have to spend the money to launch them into space Not to mention if they find some type of material that can benefit, you know cell phones or something like that and we don't have to You know go into some of these crazy areas and you know, just take up every Piece of resources in these areas. I'm you know, I'm all for these type of things. Yeah Yeah, and if they find some unobtainium out there, you know, I mean, why not? Yeah, do know All right, let's check out the mail bag on our bonus show for patrons, uh, which in free preview week you're all getting this week Last week, uh, we uh looked at old tech news lineups from 10 years ago We noticed a reference to text stops in new york Places for people to pull over and safely text now We wondered 10 years later whether those are still here and matt has a confirmation for us matt wrote in While I don't have a picture handy. I can assure you the text stop areas still do exist in new york It's an inside joke with my wife and I that whoever is driving the other one will say something like Huh, and can you pull over in two miles? I need the text Mike's gonna try to grab a picture of it the next time he goes by I don't know if you've ever been driving up in new york and seen these yourself, chris I have not driven up since these were created. I've had driven to new york many times, but of course Yeah, but I haven't seen Not not since these type of things have been created. It's been it's been some time since I've been up there It's all I wonder if it looks like a you know the Sitting weight at the airport Yeah, I think they were already like they were rest stops and pullouts and and things like that that they just kind of added a sign Like here's a place where you can pull out and text stop and text stop and text. Yeah We had a great discussion the other day about subtitles as well in our expanded show on friday And marianne, uh, dr. Marianne gary wrote in and said i've attached a paper here Showing that subtitles help most of us in a wide variety of situations My own experience is like tom's I feel as though subtitles are attention magnets And I miss some of what I would otherwise see or hear But i'm not sure if the actual data match up with what that with that feeling or if it's just a feeling subtitles have a dark side too My lab just submitted a paper in which we rapidly made people think they had learned some danish And could apply it to various situations Just by showing them subtitles So so the paper she did Showed people the the video in danish with english subtitles and then showed some people the video in danish without the subtitles And then compared whether people thought they were better at understanding danish and then tested them on it Turns out the people who saw the subtitles thought they were better at understanding danish, but they weren't Hilarious that is that is a great little quick study. Just to see see how arrogant people are. I read something Well chris my friend is great having you along i had to talk about the stuff to help people understand technology better What have you got going on? I know you you made some illusions to cutting boards and meat and again recipes earlier Tell us about barbeque and tech. Yes barbeque and tech season five is still going on real strong folks Come check us out if you want to learn how to become a backyard pit master We kind of walk you through like the basics of smoking and just how to your backyard Forget all the technical stuff that you hear like on these uh these big pit masters using if we're just telling you How to do it in your backyard and give your friend something good to eat Fantastic makes me hungry every time I hear an episode and I try never to miss an episode So you folks should check it as well bbq and tech dot com As I mentioned a couple of times it's free preview week all this week We're giving everyone access to the good day internet extended show. So stick around for gdi We're going to discuss the washington post guide to phone call etiquette It's more than just you should text before calling voicemails are dead people We're going to talk about that and more Not just for patrons though for everyone whether you're at patreon.com slash dts or not You can also catch the show live monday through friday 4 p.m. Eastern 200 utc find out more about that at daily tech news show dot com slash live Back tomorrow with john c. Dvorak as our guest talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network get more at frog pants dot com Department club hopes you have enjoyed this bro All right folks get those uh title suggestions in At showbot.tv slash dts too if you're watching or listening live Uh, we got some good ones in there and we're going to choose one Thanks to your submissions and votes again if you're in the discord or you're in the twitch chat So did you read this washington post article by heather kelly chris? Yeah, I did check it out and while I mostly agree with it Little pieces or nuances, but she did point out that you know depending on your age and Your you know your use cases that there are exceptions to the rule The article is called the new phone call etiquette So acknowledging this is new Text first and never leave a voicemail when is it okay to leave voicemails? Call multiple times in a row or take a call in public The answer to those last two is never according to heather kelly Let's let's go with a leave though. Don't leave a voicemail Kelly argues that people don't listen to voicemails anymore and if they Acknowledge them at all. They're probably reading some kind of voice to text transcription, which may or may not be accurate So i'm going to distance to my area of disagreement because most phones now do have visual voicemail And so you can leave a message the person doesn't have to call anybody They don't have to do anything they can literally just hit a play button And oftentimes i've found it to be super beneficial because somebody will call and leave an important message About my mother or my brother But my wife is the one who handles the medical side of our family stuff So I will forward that exact voicemail to her and I can forward it to her into whatsapp or email or You know within you know a text message and then that way I don't have to relay the data That is left in the voicemail. So this is my small thing is where Where people have visual voicemail I don't find this to be a problem at all So so kelly did to her you know to give fair credit say that exceptions exist Yes, she talked more about like oh if you just want to hear a loved one's voice because you're far away or whatever Um, I feel like what you're describing is another kind of exception of like Oh, this is important information and it's being communicated in this way And it's faster and easier to to pass it along. Yeah, her her exceptions were spot on, you know A daughter called my daughter calls me leave me voicemails all day long. I'm happy to hear her voice You know my wife stuff like that, you know, uh bill collectors. Yeah, not so much. So don't leave your voicemail I'm not trying to hear you. I think just just regular I think probably what she was talking about in the majority is you call somebody doesn't pick up And in in the olden days, we'd say like, uh, hey chris. It's tom. Just give me a call back Right, you know, you don't need to do that. Exactly. You could tell who it is You don't need to leave a voicemail to say that anymore 100 percent. That's why I said it's a slight area Yeah, I don't even want to say disagreement just a little turn there It was like, you know visual voicemail definitely an excellent exception But yeah, don't yeah, don't leave me a voicemail to tell they call you back I clearly even just looking at a missed call means I'm going to call you back Uh text before calling we've talked about this a bunch over the years the the new normal of Sending someone a text saying hey, are you free to talk? I want to give you a call and then and then folks You're negotiating that and how I I occasionally will just call someone and apologize like I'm sorry I'm just calling you but I'm generation ass. Please forgive me. So For me, I'm never doing that. I'm never I'm too lazy to text Somebody if I'm going to text you it's text all the way Um the only use case that where I will send a message is professionally, right? Because you never know somebody's in a meeting or wrapping up a meeting or something like that So definitely on teams I'll be like, hey, can I can I hit you up or something like that? Um because the conversation is longer than what what I want to type But so if it's a personal friend of mine And you're listening right now. You're never getting that courtesy ever I also like that she she made a point of saying don't just text call me like just the words call me because that sounds like there's an emergency And I definitely can be nerve wracking. Definitely can be nerve wracking. So and that one is context as well because you know My friends know that uh If you test me call me it's it's just that if there's an emergency behind it You're just gonna call me directly anyway. So but that but yeah 100% Now the flip side of texting before you call Is this one? Uh kelly says you don't need to answer the phone I think the reason a lot of people text before they call is they're like Well, I don't want the person to feel like they have to pick up and kelly's like you don't If there's a call comes through you don't have to answer it If you're in the middle of something or in an inconvenient situation or you're talking to someone else Let it let it go And then send a text To explain Hey, I couldn't pick up right then call me back in a little bit or I'll call you back in a little bit I've definitely had that play out where I called someone hung up because they didn't answer and then they text like Hey in the middle of something, but I'll call you in 10, right? And I I think this is important for people to understand is that The part of the reason that we didn't need to text before calling is there was no expectation that you'd pick up if you Couldn't talk right? I'll say this if you're a friend of mine and I call you don't pick up You're immediately on my list. Okay answer the really okay, so you're the part of the problem I am the absolute problem I get totally annoyed when I call somebody don't answer the phone Certain people I would say not everybody in my life But certain people in my life you see my call you better answer the phone and it better What is they immediately text say? Oh, sorry. I'm driving or oh, I'm talking to my wife right now Couldn't pick up. Does that make you feel any better is I'm ashamed to say no Hey, I think you're honest chris I am slightly less annoyed I'm kind of with chris on that because Calling for me is like It's not because my wife will make like a friendly call to friends and family like long-term friends just to I don't do that So the only time I call you is something like your house is burning and you haven't picked up on your tag So i'm calling you and you can see the thing What I notice is a lot of what she wrote for me is contextual. It's based on sure who the recipient is Is it a? In the article but like also generational like if my parents call and leave a voicemail That's the only way they're not they're not going to text me right my my dad can barely type You know well on a computer keyboard let alone, you know, right? It is definitely situational. That's a good But you know with with You know, it's interesting because I do agree with her like on voicemails You don't leave important details and expect that as the only contact for all that information Unless it sounds like you're like Like for example with the school calls me about my kids. It's like hey, this is the school nurse blah, blah, blah Your daughter has blah, blah, blah Please call back. Uh, when you know, please call back and that's it and then I'll explain further. Yeah But like if you leave all this like intrigue because when I had to deal with real estate agents back in the 2010s that was like a huge thing they would leave On almost like a 60 second like Yeah Let me just call you and then we'll sort out because Five of these I probably don't want to be in Home but but since both of you are in the camp of if I'm calling you it's important Not everybody is like that. No, so obviously some people know that But what if I'm what if I know that I know that if Roger and Chris are calling me, it's important and I better pick up But I can't talk. Yeah, so The I think the addition of the automated response text messages that a lot of these phones have now fantastic feature because While I am still annoyed Uh It is at least I know you acknowledged that I called right which is part of not just ghosting on you Right. You didn't just ignore me because I was unimportant So at the moment for you so that that has made that process a lot easier I get you know all those all the time. Most of my friends are in meetings or stuff like that So it does it does make it easier to say hey, I'm in a meeting or can I call you right back or something like that for sure Um, I just you know, I just feel I'm too important to to my friend So let me ask the both of you do you find people tend to ghost you more on text or if you call Like I often find I people don't respond to my text as readily as if I almost never call anyone So I have almost zero data on on that side of it But but I do notice there is a generational she doesn't talk about it in this article There is a generational difference between acknowledging a text And not The younger a friend of mine is the more likely they are not to respond to a text that I send And if I asked them about it like oh, yeah, I saw it And like I didn't think I needed to respond. I read it My wife I am guilty of that exact thing with my wife as well. She definitely sent me something informational I'm like acknowledged in my head, but I'm just like Did you see a message? Yeah, I saw it already. Yeah. Oh, you needed a response That's why we use the letter k like you know k Another pet peeve. I hate the letter k It's disrespectful. Yeah, you know, just give me okay. It's not that hard to hit her as well You know, I understand all the short form text isn't all just give just give me a hole in front of it. Okay Yeah, I have a friend who It may or may not co-host a book podcast with me that I'm constantly like I said I sent you this important information. Did you get it? She's like, yeah, I got it I read it. I'm like, how did I know you read it? And the only reason it's important for you to know that they read it or not Is that there have been times when they missed the text, right? Right? And that's natural texts get lost, you know, people get a lot of text and gets marked at red and then they forget about it So I'm just making sure And everybody turns off read receipts. You can't tell it that way either Well, I love what's that because it does give you that double check to say it'll give you one to say it was Received and it colors it in when they've actually read it. So I'm like, okay, they read it But that is the double-edged sword, right? Because now you're on the clock I mean, if you if you need to get ahold of your attorney, I'm using every method of that man is made That's different. Yeah, that's a professional situation. I agreed. Yeah Uh, a few other things she mentions in this article emotions are for voice facts are for text so To explain a little bit and she does a good job of explaining it in her article She's saying look and this is to your point roger about the 62nd real estate voicemail Like if you just need to tell me a list of things Email it or text it. You don't need to read it to me. It's it's hard to access that on voice But if you need to tell me something or get across an emotion or you just want to hear my voice or whatever That voice is good for that. I would add to this voice is good for explanation Right if I'm if I'm texting back and forth with someone and it's starting to feel like this is too complicated to explain in text I will say hey, can we pick up the phone? Yeah, because sometimes you just need to talk in real time to work stuff out and it's faster that way For sure. Um, and for me, uh, you know, I have a bunch of chat groups on what's happened I use voice in Like I'll see something that happened and this though I need them to understand how funny What it is that I'm telling them and there's no way it's going to come across in text So that's one of the use cases for me when I'm sending a voice message because I need them to hear The complete joy that I'm having first whatever Foolishness that I just saw and then the other thing is when I'm driving, but I you know, I don't necessarily want to fool around with Uh text uh voice uh speech of text I just record my message and send it so that you can you know, just hear it and I'm you know, not going to crash my vehicle So yeah, those are my use cases, but I think she's spot on with what's she saying here as well Also, tell me what you think of this one Don't repeat messages unless it's an emergency So if you text someone and they don't respond you can be annoyed, but don't text them again Did you get it? Did you get it? Did you get it? Or do the thing where you text and then you call and then you send an email like Again, unless unless there's a the reason for it unless it's important and it's like no your house is on fire I need you to to get back I would agree with that. Um, you know, again me and my friends that that goes a bit differently The the message is the message you'll never get the message again But what you will get is some of the worst words You've ever seen the message if you don't respond to the original message and you're like what what scroll up That's what you get in my group. So You never get the message again. So I agree with it I think this is an in her article. One of my pet peeves is did you get my email? Did you get my text message? Hmm? Why why does that bother you? It bothers me because I'm like, well You need a response from me to that message So either I didn't get it and didn't respond or I did get it and didn't think I needed to respond Or I got it and I meant and I need to respond, but I haven't responded yet And I get a lot of emails From a lot of people and so a lot of times it'll be like, well, I got an email from you But is it the one you're talking about? Maybe you sent me another one because I I didn't think I needed to respond to that one I hear you. I feel like it's better to say like, hey, I emailed you about x Yeah, you know, I wanted to see if if you know if you had an answer yet or Etc. That is 100 fair. I never thought about it in that context because that's common Common word play even work for me is like, yeah, you get my I get the call Hey, did you get my email about, you know, this particular customer if it's a gun in a mouth? That's fine. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, plenty of time. It's about 50 50. I would say but I've never had it like That's not that never made it to my pet peeve or I'm like, yeah, I got your email full all six of them When you're talking about which one I can totally understand where you're coming from on that though I'm probably overreacting out that one. I'll admit Stay still on video calls This one feels more like a family thing. I don't run into this in work situations But you know the sort of like you're making a video calling people walking around and as either swaying in and out I don't know that this one bothers me though. This does not bother me not one bit. I and in fact I prefer The walking around because it feels way more conversational to me Um, if I'm walking around doing things like oh spot on here. Let me show you this thing that I'm working on real quick Okay, flip back to my face and you know It's expressions. It just doesn't bother me at all I mean, especially if it's phone to phone more often than not. I'm not looking at the screen anyway Like I just kind of have it up and then I'm talking but I'm not like, uh Let me let me look into your eyes as we converse over Are you but are you the person who's got only half their face on the screen? No, I'll usually have my chin or I'll have like something that I'm like Doing like that. It depends on like the condition of my personal being like if I just woke up But you frame you frame it on purpose is what yeah is what you're saying Roger says he has a great chin and he's going to lead with this. Yeah, he's gonna show it Lead with that chin I I think this makes all the difference on the context to me like if it's a work thing or a class or something Then yes, everyone's day is still I do agree with it there. Yeah, this one I feel like it doesn't bother me as much as I think it should Which is people using speaker phones in public I am 50 50 on this one because it it really depends on the conversation, right? You know if you pull up and you hear you know the the argument with the family members like, you know Put your window up definitely not trying to hear that I've also pulled up kind of interesting I definitely pulled up and heard the the spicy conversation like oh do tell you know me So yeah, so it that's not something that overly bothers me unless it's the conversation is just like And I don't get uncomfortable very often, but it's just like I don't want to hear your business. Come on, you know So I so this is definitely context driven I I it doesn't bother me But I've always wondered for the other person like doesn't it feel kind of odd to be airing out? Whatever personal matter you have to a bunch of strangers It to me that's to me it's no more It's no different than someone having a conversation with another person in person on the street, right? Like it depends on what they're talking about if they're talking about it in a in a loud way about personal stuff It's like oh, that's kind of weird that you're talking about that out loud So the speakerphone is the same if it's just someone going like yeah, okay I'll be there at five o'clock or whatever that doesn't bother me at all If it's a spicier conversation I don't know. It might be entertaining, right? But to me it's if you're if it's out on the street It's no different than people talking on the street with all the same caveats around talking on the street It bothers me if it's like, oh, we're in a quiet. We're you know, we're in a situation where like in a cafe where everybody's working On a train again It's no difference than a loud conversation with a real with a person In front of you that way I will tell you the place that it does actually get to me and that's in the airport at waiting to get on the plane those Those speakerphone conversations because i'm normally like In a completely day state because as soon as I hit the chair i'm going to sleep and if somebody's got some crazy You know conference call going on and they think everybody needs to know the numbers of their company Yeah, so that's probably the only location that bugs me, but I think i'm the next time I hear a conversation. I want a speakerphone that bugs me. I'm just going to pull out a paper and a pencil and start taking notes and see what they do Or just start recording them with your phone, right like keep going keep going. This is great data You adobe you work for adobe, is that right? I mean it's weird because like I've always been sort of discreet in public conversations to begin with Unless it's something about yeah, I don't want to eat there like everyone's discussing where to eat You know if it's like a personal matter I don't know but you but usually like drag someone aside and you kind of bring down your voices if it's like You know a serious personal matter Right, you know because it just feels weird for everyone to be listening to it for me It's funny. Uh, we were in a an airport lounge On our way out on our trip Uh, and a woman took an interview in the lounge Now she wore headphones. So we weren't hearing the other end of the conversation But we were definitely hearing her, you know make her pitch for herself at everything and I appreciate the hustle Yeah, yeah, it was I I was like it should be quieter in here. This really isn't the place for you to do this But I don't know it it didn't bother me again. It didn't bother me as much as I thought I would have thought it would have Before yeah happen. Yeah But what's our final one here screen your calls Screen call screening is back now that we have phones the iPhone does it now. Android's done it for a long time Where you can let the let the phone answer the call for you and see A transcript of what the person on the other end is saying And then you can decide whether to pick up or not Uh, yeah, I think uh any measure because of how bad, uh robo calls and stuff have I've gotten over the years You can take a do not disturb Do not call that gov Where you can register your phone number for telemarketers Certain ones don't count. Of course Call screening for at&t. It's a at&t Well used to be called at&t call protect But I think they changed it to something else all of these apps and things that you can use to like You know block numbers or just you know, send them to something else first That by all means take take advantage of that because what I'm hoping is that there becomes a shared database Where you know, everybody can just block everybody and put an end to you know, a lot of this foolishness So I would agree now me personally most of the calls I do block, but every once in a while I got time I always feel that if it's a call if it's a phone number. I don't recognize All I'm doing if I pick up the phone. It's confirming. This is a working number Yeah, and I want to I do not want to give them that so I know I hear you I have the same feeling To answer and waste their time and I've seen some people make make like a profession out of this Or even yes successful youtube channels and maybe that's a whole different thing But I would prefer to just not confirm that that number works. So just I hear you let it go Unfortunately for me, I don't have that luxury to let every call go because I have a you know, brother. I'm taking care of and I never know if the phone If the coming from something there I've been in those situations too where I'm like, well, I do need to answer this because I don't know who it is Right and it could be something. So but when I have time best believe We're gonna have some fun You might as well if you're gonna be answering it any way just in case then that makes then I guess that makes sense to me, right? I do tell about your uh, little plan here. Oh really and how did you come across that? Oh, my email is locked With can you send me the key? Can you send it in the mail like the regular mail? Oh, you want me to go physical? Right. Do you want me to go buy a gift card man? I'm broke as a joke I don't ask Can you send me $5 so I can get there? I don't have a phone But you're yeah Oh, man, it's it's funny how how fast a phone number. Well, it's not even how fast it's phone numbers are In all phone numbers are in the system now because these a lot of these these places that spam with texts They just create random numbers. They're not even polling numbers from a database They're just sending it to random numbers and knowing that some of them won't go anywhere But enough of them will so when I got my e-sim when I was traveling turned on that new International phone number right and within a day. I was getting I was getting spam text message nuts. Yeah One day we'll have to compare like the the most creative scam text message Or email that we've all ever gotten because there've been some good ones where I'm like, whoa, that's really good Yeah, yeah, yeah palo dlr the the the messages were in korean because that was a korean phone number So they were assuming because that was a korean phone number the person on the other end was korean So all in hunger um I think these are overall a pretty good Assessment of the current state What I don't know is because things have changed rapidly on phone etiquette in the past 10 to 15 years Whether this is going to last like how long is this going to be the etiquette or is it going to continue to evolve? Yeah, I I think she absolutely wrote a fantastic article here. So this this was a really fun conversation And in fact, I have a friend who I always have to cringe before I call because of much of the little nuances that I have He absolutely despises anybody calling him directly And so, you know what I call him for something something He immediately he's on guard like what do you want? Why are you asking me? And it's I just have to laugh sometimes because I know I'm annoying him by calling But I you know, this is the conversation that needs to be had over the phone. So I think she really laid it out perfectly here Yeah, I have a feeling in the future It'll just be some sort of virtual avatar assistant that will answer the call for you And it will be just at least 80 of you that can you know be like a chat That becomes an etiquette thing right like hey, why aren't I on your approved list to let me through the avatar? Why do I always have to touch your avatar? Why is your avatar dancing? Can you have an avatar that's more serious than the beginning? Oh, right. Is it yeah, which avatar do you show to your work colleagues versus your your friends? Um, I don't know. I I feel like the stuff's going to continue to evolve Uh, and it's and it's going to continue to change but this like you said, I think this is a uh This is a pretty good list As strange as it may sound for somebody who does a podcast where I talk for a living I hate talking on the phone. I really do if I can go away On the phone. I do I there's something about talking on the phone. I find So taxing compared to like talking even even a teleconference and call There's something about holding the phone to your head and having to talk that way And then concentrate on the conversation in a way that I normally don't Do headphones then, you know I There's something about not being able to see a face the other person. Yeah, yeah Yeah, so I'm a judge I don't mind at all. I uh talking on the phone Depending on the person, you know the one that drones on yeah, but for the most part I don't mind talking on the phone. I'm just a speakerphone guy at home So when my boys call me, we're you know chopping it up I'll just throw you on speakerphone. Um, unless I can't you know, so and It definitely matters who's calling me. There are people who call me where I'm like, oh, yeah I don't mind talking on the phone to them. Right, right, right But but like when it's like, oh, I got to call somebody to to get this done or ask about this That's the ones I hate Understandably so Yeah All right, folks, uh, we are glad to have you along. Thanks to everybody who supports the show at patreon.com Slash dts if you're enjoying the free preview week already By all means get in there and enjoy more We got lots of folks interacting with us over there and rike liked The post of the know a little more episode about the computer mouse faking nose grab just liked rogers column about heat and electronics We've got some comments from russell lots of good comments regarding last friday show in there as well Talking about subtitles and different ways that that people use them and enjoy them. Thank you to maria and riley Uh and raiment in there. Thank you for uh for all your comments. 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