 Just please note the session has been recorded and you know that'll be coming down the path a little bit later on. So, welcome to everybody who's made the time to come to this session today, as you can see already in the chat we have a really strong turn out a great mix of locations from right across Ireland UK and even beyond. So you're very welcome to this session. And for those of you who don't know us at this session will be facilitated by myself, Claire Gormley, and my two DCU TEU colleagues, Rob Launey and Suzanne Stone, who will be co facilitating these this session, as indeed we have been doing with multiple online and indeed face to face ABC workshops at DCU. So just a small bit of housekeeping to say you're very much warmly invited to post comments and questions as we're going along in the public chat please. We will be keeping a close eye on that and we'll check in on the chat as well to air any of those points every now and then. So we have a particular welcome to our guest speakers I'd like to say here today to Clive Young and Natasha Perovich all the way from UCL, who are the original creators of the ABC learning design method that we're also interested in. And I'm sure we're all looking forward to hearing much more from them on that particular topic. So just one other small piece of housekeeping to mention is that if you're interested in things tweeting, please do use the national forum hashtag that's hashtag NFS NF seminar. It's on the screen there. If it's okay, I'd like to take a moment to gratefully acknowledge the support of our funders the national forum for the enhancement of teaching and learning. So I'm going to play a very short video about how about their work so hopefully this will all run swimmingly. And very much national forum really kind of get motoring I suppose on the main meat of the session today. So, TCU as some of you will already know had the pleasure of working very closely with Natasha and live as part of an Erasmus plus funded ABC TV project in recent years. And throughout that project, we really got an insight into their vision for the ABC learning design framework and we learned so much from them, and indeed the 13 European partners involved in that. So, Clive and Natasha are here today to help set the scene for this session on online approaches to ABC, and indeed to give us an update on how this these approaches are evolving internationally. So, if it's okay at this point I'll hand the reins Clive and Natasha over to you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting us today. I really appreciate we work with DC as classes on the Erasmus project we just mentioned that in passing, but it's always delight to work with the DC. Full of energy they are we've learned as much from them probably a lot more than they ever learned from us so it's a delight to be here and participate and hello to everybody else here. So we're going to do a bit of a double act myself and Natasha I'll start off and pass over to handle to Natasha and I'm going to explain just a little bit about ABC where we are at the moment I'm going to share my screen and I'm kind of hoping you can see that. I guess you can. Not yet. Not yet. Yes. Yes. Okay, so that's me Clive and Natasha so we will take you through it so if you're not so familiar with ABC I know some will be but this is a collaborative workshop that myself and Natasha developed about five or six years ago. So it is an internal tool inside UCL. And the idea is to bring our teaching teams together a module program teams to work together in a very kind of concentrated fast focus way to design the students journey for their modules and the whole programs and it works so it worked really well with the new sales so we kind of like spread this around the word around through other institutions, where it's well there as well and other places have since taken it up. And the key of it is although, you know, learning design has become very kind of popular phrase, particularly post COVID when we realize that we do have to design learning in the kind of new world. So I think about ABC, we should remember is it's about the engagement of academic colleges about the socialization, if you like, of learning design that people come together and work on on the designs with the students and decide what students are going to be doing together. And this becomes a kind of what we're trying to do at UCL is trying to set a far more mainstream part of people's activities. So the conversation creativity, that sort of thing is very important. It's a very practical method you get these nice storyboards, you see them in a minute, action lists and so on. We found going beyond UCL and inside UCL it's it works in many media disciplines, most disciplines really. And of course now we've had to go from a face to face original into the online format. We designed it initially for for blended learning. That was what we wanted to do. We were kind of interested in that area, and primarily for new programs and new programs coming through the pipeline. How could we improve the blend of that short courses, MOOCs, all that sort of thing. What we actually ended up doing folks was to do a lot of program reviews. So these were programs that should maybe run for a few years or maybe many, many years. So we looked at their, how they've been performing and how we could perhaps change the blend. And that became a very major part of the activity with ABC. And now we're kind of moving not beyond that but also adding to that the idea of focusing on specific topics such as employability and and and any of these like that. If you've not seen ABC, many of you might have done so. The whole idea is the group comes together around a table. This would be a program or a module group or course group, and they work together and build up the student journey using these little cards and these can't represent different types of learning. And it's very conversational. It's people. I think there's a great buzz when people are doing it in the face to face format. It's behind it is a pedagogical model. Professor Diana Lawrence is also from UCL, her conversational framework again that's been well established in the field but it's some of the complex model folks and had to get head around. So what we've done myself and Natasha we kind of operationalized it, and I made it much easier to use and sort of boil it down to its kind of principles, these principles being these different types of of learning. But behind that if you're interested, there's a kind of a really rich model behind it but when we use this with academic colleagues we don't really go into that level of debt. So a lot of parts of the model became the cards, each card represents a different type of learning acquisition collaboration discussion, investigation practice and production. And they become a kind of a kind of Lego blocks if you like in order to build out the student experience. And one kind of important thing about here is that when you look at these cards, they're mostly around active learning. Okay, so we have them, I guess you have as well, a lot of our colleagues, they get a bit focused on content when they think about learning design. What's the content, of course, what we're going to recover what you know, this is like, so they built into ABC's this idea of active learning. And so five of the six learning types are based on activity. And but we don't kind of force that within the workshop, it just kind of naturally comes out. And I think the designs become much richer from that. I'm not saying content isn't important content learning outcomes are very, very important, but it does shift the emphasis towards active, active learning by the students. So the cards, we've got two sides being cards. One side is the type of learning. And the other, and this is something that people adapt an awful lot will come back by the second, and for the local institutions but for the original one we did at UCL, which we were looking at conventional, you know, face to face classroom based learning and digital, which was the other part of the blend. And on the other side of the cards, the suggestions some pedagogical, some technical suggestions that people might want to use with the students. And it was again, these were kind of services, yes, prompts for discussion and and worked, worked very well. The workshop is the main part of this kind of backbone if you like the ABC, but there's other things that go along alongside it all this kind of support documents. So for example, we have a kind of tool wheel, which I'll explain in a minute, but also supported documents in the sense of we use Moodle as DCU does and some of you will do as well. And so we kind of map the Moodle tools against the pedagogical model so that when people come out with the designs and the nationalists, they can see exactly what kind of tools they can use in order to implement those activities. And then we've got kind of larger kind of sheets and support tools so they can go into more detailed guides and so on. So it's not the workshop doesn't quite stand alone. There are other things that people do afterwards and before the tool wheel is a bit of an iconic part of ABC, although it's not part of the workshop actually, and it's a way that people before you get to ABC, not necessarily participants but the supportive colleagues look at the kind of environment, the digital environment that people have available in the institution and map it against the, against these pedagogical components and this kind of works a quite nice way to make that link between the pedagogy and of course the technology that we have to use. And as Claire mentioned, we, we've done an awful lot of work this over the last five years. The most recent one was this large Erasmus project. So we did that over a large part of the user, including DC, DCU. That's the various partners. And the main outcome of that was toolkit. So you can go online now and see this toolkits all the lots and lots in it. No, it's just not one of the things you should emphasize about ABC it's not about myself and Natasha can say this is the only way to do it. I kind of try to keep people on the kind of backbone of the, the storyboard we feel that's the most important part of it, but people have adapted ABC including DCU and you'll see that later on today in a variety of ways, and, and this is all good. The point about this is that there is no one way to do this it's what's appropriate for you and your institution, and your, your, your priorities your technologies that you know what your staff are like the disciplines and so on. So in this particular tool kit there's lots of variation and different things that people can do, which you can kind of look through and decide which is best for you or you might have some one of your, a better idea for yourself and again, part of the thing we do with is try to share all these ideas if we can, we can act as a bit of a hub there to try to disseminate good ideas because as I said at the very beginning, we learn as much from this as you might have learned a lot more. One of the early stage things we did was work with research based universities because you see I'll be doing research based university, and we did a lot of business so running workshops with them and this kind of really road tested the method and very kind of quite harsh and harsh environment. So it was, was Trinity, but the, we kind of proved it before we actually even got to the project, we kind of knew it was going to work quite well. And since then it's been taken up over, you know, quite large parts of the world it's mostly been Europe because we do it's only part of our job during the full time so it's been limited to the time that Natasha and I can places we can visit the way I've been. So a few places further feel and we know people are using it further feel as well. Of course, the most important places Ireland as you know, and we have we power from quite close to us. We've done quite a lot of great work working with you guys. So I just put a diagram up and when it looked at it looks a bit like a kind of a board game where you kind of going around the various stages of it because the starting point was actually I'll see universities had a political viewpoint way way back. And that started off our thinking about using storyboards so we've got great debt of gratitude to that work that was done there we always acknowledge that. And since then we've kind of gone around the, gone around the coast if you like, we jumped over Queens for no particular reason, but DC of course have been a very key partners with us and, and as I said they've been so creative and I think developed ABC an awful lot. So that's really the areas that we were working. As I said, we visited Trinity, UCD, a few workshops there. And the last time we did before lockdown was UCC or Incorq, and that was with a couple of workshops there as well. So in every one of those ones, we've had a great, great fun. I was a great place to work and, you know, great, great crack really has to be said. And we've, you know, we really kind of enjoyed that. One of the things we recommend is when we do the kind of live workshop is we have, you know, big cakes and stuff like that. An enormous pot of tea in an Incorq case. And, and just have a kind of fun with it. And, and I think that's part of why ABC's work quite well is that it has this kind of kind of fun engaging element in it. Some of the other universes have been to the workshops by the way, just because we're not quite got there. And of course colleges and schools as well, or take an interest in Ireland. That's absolutely where we've got to come back in a wee second, but we're going to pass over to Natasha and take you through the online versions because that's a focus for today. Okay, thank you, Clive. Are you going to hold the slides? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yes, so at the beginning of the first lockdown, we're thinking, what do we do now? We will miss our workshops and particularly many people had to go quickly online. We talk a little bit longer than we thought we would and many other people actually made their online versions before us. So we shared them all on our ABCLD website, a link will be on the slides that you will receive. Can we go on to the next one, please? And some, there are some additional translations as well. So this is about this international part and this international community actually helped a lot in promoting it and sharing and adapting. And the next one, please. And if you are still wondering whether it works, there is a nice evaluation from our Erasmus Plus project. It's on the website too, so you could have a look. We had some excellent results in these 13 countries where we evaluated it. Can we go on to the next one, please? Okay, so what did we do? We wanted to replicate actually what we do in face to face into the online environment and our particular difficulty was with the storyboarding. We settled on a jumpboard at the end and you can, links are the end of presentation, you can actually make a copy of it and use it for yourself. Next one, please. So the schedule is the same, treat your module, we now ask people to either treat them or share in one of the jumpboard panels. Next one, please. We ask them to do the little graph of distribution of types of learning using a little Excel sheet and do the screenshot and share in another jumpboard panel. Next one, please. This is how we used to do the workshop, everybody in the room. Now, next one, please. We do them online, we put people in groups and everybody has one panel on jumpboard where they go and do storyboarding. Next one, please. After they done the storyboarding, we can do this between the select activities and identify feedback and assessment. Next one, please. What we do now is we go into the learning designer, which is another tool hosted at UCL, where actually people can break down these activities in details and indicate whether these are synchronous asynchronous, whether the teacher was there, whether it's online or offline going to a lot of details. And now these designs can be actually exported and imported into Moodle, just as a placeholder. So it will turn it into linear output into Moodle. Next one, please. It can also export into Word. So the new ways that we are looking now is adding the layers. Once people done the mapping and done the storyboards, they have these jumpboards forever. And they can actually come back and now we are looking into employability layer to add to it because at UCL there are these six pillars of employability recently identified. So people can actually identify the areas and add layer of employability. Next one, please. That's one of the ways. And also what we are looking at at UCL is to have this framework that would actually help people to tie everything in from the idea of a program or a module through the design validation then going to ABC and to the support. So we are trying to align all these things at UCL. Thank you, Clive, do you want to. Yeah, so, so where we are now is we have, we still do, we do a lot of new programs and reviews we did before. But we're trying to align some of the kind of strong years of interest universe around, as I say, around employability is a strong theme. So we're kind of emphasizing that type of thing as people go through it. So we can look at, maybe look at the storyboard then we could add in things around assessment and feedback, employability other kind of areas of there are quite a few kind of areas that we're looking at in UCL. And it's trying in our case is trying to align it against some of the kind of main kind of needs of the university because we're trying to get us into a free corner. And it's partly as I said at the very beginning, it's about people understand the learning design is something you can do as a group, you can do as a social exercise. And if you do it in this kind of way, it can be very creative and add to the students experience. So we're trying a number of different methods if you like to try and get it all corners, all corners of the university. And that's out of the confidence that we have that it does work. It does work pretty well for everybody. We've got Natasha. I just wanted to say it works as well as the face to face we miss the past or face to face the buzz in the room. However, we end up with a digital output here so in some ways it actually goes further than the face to face. You kind of you kind of win some and lose some really. As I say the socialization is not quite secured online, but the productivity is about the same. I didn't say you've got these kind of digital outputs. One of the things that we look at and I'll be listening to you today actually is that we will go back to face to face stuff when we can. But we want to try and also take advantage of the digitalization as well. So what can we, what can we bring from the digital back into the into the face to face. We haven't quite worked out how to do that yet, but we will, we'll be thinking about it and we will listen to you guys as well. Just one of the things that, you know, we're very happy to work with other people and just while we do together. And, you know, if you're interested in doing any further evaluations and thinking of this or look at different methods, we're always really happy to hear what you're doing and maybe even work together with you. I'll do something as per their time. Yeah, I think so. Okay, Clems, okay. Excellent. That's brilliant. Thanks a million and perfectly timed. Thank you so much. Thanks for the slides and links and stuff like that. We'll send everything afterwards. Good stuff. So look, we can see some very positive comments coming through in the chat. They're very interesting to hear. I suppose, from a Moodle perspective that transition into Moodle is an interesting new development. But look, I'd like to at this point just check in with Rob and Suzanne to see if there was anything that came up in the chat. I know there were some comments coming in, but feel free to put in questions guys for a Clive and Natasha at this point. And Rob and Suzanne, did you have anything you'd like to add? Not so far clear, but thanks for checking in there. And this is an interesting comments to just coming in now actually if you, we might pick up on this comment from Jill there on assessment. There on assessment design as crucial part of the whole I guess just echoing what Clive is saying there about aligning to other systems and processes across the university. But this question from Lucy interested to know if and how students are involved in the ABC process. We will be speaking about that. Perhaps later, but Claire, I don't know if you want to pick up on that at this point. Yeah, I wonder if that maybe would put that to Clive and Natasha first if that's okay about about because I know, I know that you've definitely done some work in this area. Yes, yes. Shall I click off Natasha? Yes, yes. So we had students involved in several ways you can invite them actually to design a module that they're going to embark on. We had these examples with one lecturer in particular. So students would come in design eight weeks that they will be doing and then do them. They understand this workshop very well and actually they don't need any additional preparation. They do get into it rather quickly. We had also students who came to review modules, programs with their lecturers or there will be a few students in the room working with the lecturers and they would reconstruct what they went through previous year, and give some feedback on things that work that didn't work. Another interesting example was that one of the programs wanted to do interrelated BSE for medical students, and they wanted to make sure that it's actually relevant to the clinical side of teaching. They had one that concentrated on research similar type of program, but they wanted to make it clinical. So we invited student rep from medical MBBS who actually sat with these four core modules and made sure that designed with them all these four modules and made sure that this is actually relevant to the medical students. So these are some of the examples that we had. We had also academic development where students were lecturers and academic developers are teachers. So they actually looked at what they did in the academic development program that year and redesigned particular module and people had different experiences on that one. So students can be involved and they really get to use it very easily and very quickly. I mean, several universities come across have policies now where students are to be involved in the learning design. And that's quite tricky one actually to implement in any kind of meaningful way. But if you bring them into a particular kind of review, it's obviously slightly different with new programs you have to think about carefully about who would represent that. In review is actually a little bit more straightforward. Bring students in and they are really good contributors because they will, you know, they'll be quite the nice thing about ABC has this kind of flat democratic feel about it. You know, we're all learners in this area. And, you know, this really we're non judgmental anyway, whatever people do is what they do, you know, and we're just trying to think get people to think further. And students can contribute to that really well and be quite critical in a kind of nice way, a positive way, and say, Oh, you thought we were doing that with the students. Yeah, no, that didn't work, you know, that's something. And that's very, very useful. And it's a nice, it's a good way to have that communication with the with students as well because you get their experience, direct experience in there. So, yeah, I mean, if you can do that, it really adds an awful lot to it. I can see a couple of more questions feedback from students. Yes, we presented with one group of students at the conference about this I can put the PDF sent to PDF of that presentation I can send to clear later to distribute. And jumbo storyboarding straight into learning designer. Yes, we realize that storyboarding part is actually very important to take a level up we start with a tweet, which is kind of zoomed out view of the module what is the essence of it. Then we go into storyboard, trying to move away from thinking about the content. People who know exactly what they want to do they can go straight into learning designer we found the storyboarding removes that level where people actually concentrate on the content straight away. So they have a the view in between this high view of births view, and then they're going to storyboard concentrating on patterns for learning, and then they go into activities because activities can change if we go into learning designer we find sometimes people go straight into activities and lose that layer of actually what type of learning, although it's indicated and going too much details too soon. That was our experience. Of course if they're train teachers and familiar with it. Yeah. Yeah, they. Yeah, students should quite enjoy it and actually I think they appreciate a little bit more what goes into the design of their learning, which is kind of curious, you know, and they think we just turn up and teach them but that's really kind of work like that. There's a couple of things that assessment and feedback very important parts of the house that was embedded in the, in the original ABC and I'm still use that a lot trying to identify where assessment feedback takes place again. And where you want to a particular focus and that that's something can drill down in. And again using the storyboard as a starting point, we can look back and things like learning outcomes as well, or policies, as I say like graduate attributes that sort of thing. You can also be, can also be used since he's any else we've got there. I think shout out to just by the way, yes, because they, they funded the original projects on which, you know, eventually came out of that was the university also stuff. And, yeah, we're following their assessment initiatives as well because it's so important for all of us. Good stuff. Listen, thanks. Thanks very much for those responses so far what I'm going to do, if it's okay, because I can see there's more questions and comments coming through in the chat and please do keep them coming. But maybe we're going to move away, take a slight change in direction at this point if that's okay but please do keep adding to the chat and they'll be responded to over the course the session if that's okay. So look, thank you very much for that really nice scene setting piece of the session today and that was really helpful and I think it's inspired lots of questions and ideas from the group here. But now, as they say, we are going to move over to something a little bit different at this point. And I'm going to share my screen and hopefully you're all seeing that okay. Okay, again, you're seeing that fine. Great stuff. So, at this point, we are going to move specifically to the DC you online ABC approach. I wanted to three of us wanted to highlight at the outset that really this is a pared down version of ABC that we have developed and modified for the online environment. Obviously, like so many of us in response to call it originally but we've been working on it and adopting it for some time time now. As you can see, and as Clive and Natasha highlighted, there are multiple other versions of online ABC out there. So, you know, we want to acknowledge that we are one of many trying to come up with effective replacements if that's the right word for the in person ABC workshops that we, we, as many of us know and enjoy. But our focus for this particular session for the remainder of it really is and how we are approaching this at DCU. In the next hour or so we are going to talk you through the typical approach that we apply but with shorter timings. And the idea of the session today is to really give you a flavor of how we approach ABC online. Everything that you're going to see on the slides, the following slides is available in that toolkit that the URL for which is is on the slide there. It's openly available and like the original CC licensed, and you know you can use it in full or use elements of it, or adapted for use in your own particular context. I would like to emphasize that this seminar is very much about giving you the tools to do this yourself. And you hope that it will give you the confidence to start using ABC in your setting where appropriate. So, that's, that's where we're going with it. So without further ado, my slides actually move here. There we go. We're going to talk you through the process now. So starting at the very beginning when somebody comes to us and it's usually somebody like a program lead or a program chair when somebody comes to us looking for an ABC workshop for their team, they might have heard about it they might have actually heard about it through word of mouth they might have come across it, perhaps at a conference or something. So that person is a program lead or program chair and usually they're coming of course with a specific purpose that they're leading a team for a program which needs either to be developed from scratch or to a redesign in most cases. So one of the first things that we do is to get their team to engage with what we call a pre ABC activity in advance of the workshop. And this particular resource and you can see, actually, maybe I have moved on a little bit too fast for you here. Oh, no, I've moved on to the wrong slide I just realized as I'm talking through. Yes, this is the one I have been meaning to show you so this is all about that the pre ABC. So we asked people to, to look at this resource and you can see the screenshots from it there on the slide. And this particular resource includes guidance and questions that are aimed at thinking through potential learning outcomes, and indeed other aspects to help them through the ABC workshop itself. And the idea of this is to, is to save time at the online workshop, but also very importantly to ensure that those coming to the workshop have talked about and discussed their intended learning outcomes in advance of the session. You know, we have found based on experience that the more time people have spent thinking about those things in advance, the more productive the ABC session and in particular the storyboarding piece will be. So really what we do is typically we ask the, we send them this this resource we ask the program lead then to share the learning outcomes that are generated as a result of this resource back with us so that we can revisit those at the very top of the workshop. So we asked them to share the draft learning outcomes and indeed the, the tweets that they come up with, and which is intended to capture the essence of their proposed course redesign. So this particular activity was developed in a technology called h5p and it has the really nice interactive feature of enabling users to write responses to particular questions as they work their way through the activity. And by engaging with it participants can very easily generate a word document that can be easily shared around afterwards and then use as a basis for team discussions. So we've been using this this pre ABC activity for some now, some time now and we feel it's saving time and helping us to, as I said lead to more fruitful discussions later on. And it's so far working quite well. You'll see a link to that in the toolkit I should add. But then, you know, the work on that resource is usually happening in the week running up to the workshop itself usually about a week or 10 days or so. And it's happening mainly behind the scenes. Obviously, once people have done done that pre work and ideally met and kind of had a discussion maybe even amongst themselves beforehand that doesn't always happen but it sometimes does. Once that has been done. The next step really is to run a synchronous online workshop, where we provide a space, just like the original for staff to collaboratively discuss and design a specific module or program. Just like the original just like the original in the sense that we're asking a team of people to come together. And as you can see in the graphic on screen to to plan out their proposed new module or program. And our online workshop sessions are designed to be two hours in duration and one in zoom, just like the session today. So at the start of each workshop we run an introductory presentation where we do a number of things I'm not going to run through everything we do in that, but essentially, we explain what ABC learning design is as as you can see in the slide and Natasha did where it's come from and outline how it's very firmly rooted in the work of, and the theory of Diana Lauren ours conversational framework. So we're highlighting there that it's a well established pedagogically informed framework. It's not something that we as a unit have come up with ourselves, it's, it's got a solid tradition to support it. We also do spend some time at the, when we're interested at the beginning of that online workshop. We do spend a little bit of time on setting online workshop expectations, including the fact that you know follow up conversations are very likely to be required. We also though as well emphasize that this is quite different from other, what we call training oriented workshops and might some aspects of it will be challenging for people. There are some people to engage with that certain points is quite different. So what we do is we really ask them to run with the process, even if some parts seem a little bit uncomfortable for them at first and we've learned that over the over the past while that by being upfront about that it seems to be more appreciated by people. And as I mentioned, we just very briefly and we don't spend much time on the store we show the learning outcomes that have been sent to us by the program chair, and we talk about the tweet there's an example of the tweet on screen that people have been asked to discuss to discuss the workshop so it's just to make sure we're going getting into the, into the meter of the session with a good chance of understanding the general direction of travel for the group. So once those two pieces have been done really for people it's time to focus on design, and to give you a sense of how it works. It's going to be your turn to engage in a little bit of the ABC yourselves. So we are going to ask you to design a very short course in less than an hour well less than an hour using the tools from our toolcast. So explain what those are we're giving you a couple of options so to give you a head start we're going to give you two short course options with some learning and background for two different types of courses. And just for now, we want you to select one of those to think about one of this when I've shown you both you'll be able to select which one is more interesting and relevant to you. So the first one is a short course for first year undergrads and round about three to four hours of blended and we're just for now calling it ace your academic integrity. And it's based on the learning outcomes that you're seeing on screen so it's a very, if you like introductory academic writing awareness of integrity academic integrity type of short course. So if you have absolutely no interest in that area or you don't feel comfortable with that you can go for something entirely non academic to try your hand at ABC. And what we're saying is basically we might ask you to design a very short course around about three to four hours again for visitors from outer space, shall we say, people who never come across. T before so we're going to ask you to write a short course called a Martian's guide to T making. And these are just a few, you know, just give you an idea. These are the kind of learning outcomes that we might ask you to work with in that case. So make it easy for you as well easier for you I should say, we've given you some sample tweets as well for each of those for each of those scenarios so have a think, pick one of those have a look at those. And that will be useful for the next activity that we're going to ask you to work with. Oh, not quite there yet. Sorry, jumping ahead not quite ready for the break I'm afraid. Okay. So with that in mind what the, the first thing we're going to do is to move on to the stage where we're going to focus on exploring the six learning types. Now, for those of you who are already familiar with the ABC method, you might be expecting the cards, like those that are you're seeing in the upper left hand corner. However, those look quite a bit different in our adaptation of ABC in this case it's just visually that they look different, because in moving this online we've taken quite a different tack and converted those physical cards into polls. And this is because we want to ensure that participants get a chance to carefully read each card, front and back the front of the card being the description of the six learning types in the back of the card being in the old scenario being the suggested learning activities relating to each of the learning types. But we want people to get a little bit of time to digest those and, and think about those. We also though as well wanted you when we started using the polls, we liked the way that they provide an opportunity for maybe the quieter people at ABC workshops to contribute to sessions. And that's something particular that we needed to be conscious of and aware of online. Because, you know, obviously it's a different scenario when when people are, you know, joining a conversation like this online and there can be other more human aspects out that we need to keep in mind. And, you know, the other benefits of the polls as well is that we feel that by asking the group to think about the most promising learning activities they see, we're going to get a sense, sort of a pulse check from the room of the most and least popular learning activities, but really the most popular and get the ball rolling in some way before, before the actual storyboarding process commence. But look, enough of me talking about the polls for net my next step really is to launch the polls so that you can see these for yourself. Okay, just give me a minute. Right, so we're ready, ready to go with the polls so you're going to start seeing those coming through now so you should, in fact, be seeing one called acquisition on your screen right now so maybe give me a nod, Rob, if that's coming up. Okay, so what we typically do here is that we explain obviously what each of the learning types are beginning with the one called acquisition. So this is really any type of activity where you're asking your learners to read or watch or listen to something. And what we've done here there's a description of what acquisition is at the top, and the there are suggestions for various ways in which acquisition can be enacted in the list below. So I want you to thinking about the short course that you've chosen there. And think about which, which of the activities would make more sense in that particular context. So you can pick up to three, shall we say but no more than that. Okay, if we could get a few more people responding there, right. Excellent. Okay, I'm going to share the results with you now. Now, and you should be seeing those on your screen at the moment. Okay, very good. So as you can see, probably no surprise that readings is still being from this group. We're seeing a lot of books and journal articles coming up there from a number of people. And we're seeing, you know, a nice mix of activities there we're seeing fairly close behind that the idea of interactive learning objects. And we're seeing as no surprise at all, a very high percentage of you thinking that videos are going to be, you know, a likely way of, if you like putting the acquisition learning type into practice within your course. Okay, right. So usually we, you know, it's slightly unusual here because there's kind of two possibilities going on but if you can imagine if you're using this for one, one course. And it's even there of which ones were coming through most most obviously so I'm going to move on to the next one. And to explain that the next learning type is called discussion and as the name says on the tin this one is very much about conversation and dialogue and it's really saying that any kind of intentional discussion activity is going to ask the question to articulate their ideas and questions and challenge and respond to ideas and questions from both the teacher and indeed from their peers. So, any number of ways in which discussion can be enacted so if I could ask you to quickly take a look at the list there and let us know which ones are jumping out to you. When I get a critical mass. I'll share the results there. And then some of the poll options we're using a lot of terminology that's specific to DCU and like loop is the name of our virtual learning environment for, for example. But in the tool kit you'll find a spreadsheet of all of these polls so if you want to run this yourself you can just amend amend some of the questions and replace the likes of loop and zoom, etc. And Vvox with with your own tools that you use in your own institution. Very good and just quickly to mention, obviously you can see there from this group, you know, almost 70% of you are saying there's a strong possibility of using online discussion forums. But as you can see there are other ones that are coming up somebody very high percentage of 20, sorry, 57% considering audience engagement tools such as Vvox, or Google Forms or Kahoot and things like that. So that's quite interesting to see and you can usually have a bit of a discussion about those that are popping up. Okay, as you can see as well we have an option there for other. And what I would say is, you know, I always ask people when we're running these to ideally take note of the things that they're coming up with themselves. There's something on the list that isn't, isn't, isn't appearing because it's not a truly exhaustive list, then add that something we can come back to in later discussion so please do I'd encourage you all at this point do take a note of which ones are resonating more strongly with you because it'll be useful for the storyboarding exercise later. There you go on discussion. I'm going to quickly move to another learning type called practice. And this is really anywhere you're giving the learner an opportunity to apply and practice their skills. It's always in connection with feedback as you can see in this description there so it's not about somebody practicing a way on their own you do when you're thinking about, you know, attributing something under the practice heading. It's, it's usually something like. Oh, sorry. It's usually something that will, shall we say prompt feedback from either the lecture or the peers. So, again, there's a huge variety in the ways in which practice learning can occur. So just have a look at those options there and see if any of those might relate to your course. Okay, interesting, very high interest. One sec. Very high interest as we can see there in. And are you seeing the results on screen Rob sorry I'm just. Yep, you seen the results. Yeah. Okay. You know, obviously very high 70% of you saying that online quizzes and that's probably no surprising. Certainly quizzes have had a moment in the past 18 months or so. So I'm not terribly surprised to see so many of those there, but obviously, you know, a huge variety of other possibilities including practice or drafting exercise and obviously in a science environment things like lab practicals. Okay. Let's stop sharing that now and move on to the next one. And this one is called investigation. And this is where you're asking the learner to go out and explore, compare and critique materials related to the concepts and ideas being taught. So it's any kind of it's usually very common and things like problem based learning or case based learning or challenge based learning indeed. So, yeah, giving the learner an opportunity to explore and investigate for themselves, sometimes in response to specific questions. Or challenges, as I said, but there's lots of ideas. I hope you'll see on screen for how investigation can be integrated into the learning experience so there are those coming up there. And we can see that obviously investigation key to it is this concept of searching for and evaluating and comparing contrasting information ideas, nearly 70% of you seen that and you know there's there's lots of other ways in which investigation can happen. Okay. In that poll. Thank you for that thanks everyone. I'm now going to move on to one called collaboration. And for a lot of people we find they sometimes get a little bit confused about the distinction between discussion and collaboration. And really is where you're asking the learners to work together to produce a collective output of some kind. So if you think about it you can be having a discussion but you're not necessarily engaging in the process of negotiating with other students about it you're not making decisions on what's in and out your own like, you know, so in a discussion, there's necessarily working towards a specific end, if you know what I mean, whereas in collaboration, that's definitely, you know, a strong inference to be made from it. That the, if you're asking your students to collaborate this, you know, there's a group project of some kind going on that requires them to build a joint output together. And that could be something technological, like a website or video, but it's also very common to have things like presentations. And as we can see here, lots of potential in this idea of crowdsourcing resources as well. So, great. Thank you. And we shall move on to the next one, which is a stop sharing. And the next one and last of the six learning types is called production. And this is really the point at which you're asking your students to produce or create something that they will ultimately be assessed on. So, as we've all learned, particularly over the past 18 months, there's a huge variety of assessment modes. In addition to, you know, fairly standard approaches like essays, there's been a whole focus really on the potential for alternative forms of assessment. So what we're trying to do here is just give some triggers some ideas for how somebody could potentially assess a piece of learning. So you can see that what's coming up so far, I can see things are changing actually very quickly, which is interesting. And yeah, really nice mix three are three are very similar, I can see definitely a place for still the written word there. That's going around 52% obviously presentations as well as I mentioned that's a very common form of production and learning portfolios also hold a lot of potential in this area. So, as you can see, if you look scroll down through the list there's there's various other ideas suggested there and hopefully that will have triggered some thinking for you there. So what I would say at this point, you've had a sense now of how the polls will work I'm going to stop sharing. Hopefully you've taken some notes and hopefully it's given you some ideas. What I'm actually going to do since we're just at the five to 11 point going to encourage you to take a short break really short break because we'll be back at 11. But you know if you want to switch off your cameras and stretch your legs or something for a few minutes. We'll continue in five minutes time we'll start bang at 11 again. Okay, so just take a little stretch. At this point, I'm actually going to call on Rob Launay to lead the next piece of the session. If that's okay. Where we're going to lead into the storyboarding process so Rob if you'd like to talk through that at this point. Yeah. Sure thing thanks a million Claire. And let me just share my screen with you all. Most of you will know and I know Clive and Natasha spoke about this earlier is that the storyboarding is a key part of ABC to help with that visualization of the module design. And usually the way that the storyboard works is that it's broken into maybe weeks or topics for the module, and people take the learning type cards and lay them out in a particular order and choose the different learning types related to each learning types and it's a very engaged hands on sort of an approach in the online world obviously we have to do things a bit differently. And the way we do it at DCU is that we use either a simple Google Doc template, or a simple Google Slides template, and we ask our participants to collaborate on those documents and populate the storyboard. And that's what we're going to ask you folks to do now as well so in a moment Claire is going to add you all invite you all to a breakout room. And I think there'll be about four people in each breakout room so we might have about between 15 and 18 breakout rooms in total I would imagine. And it's very important when when when Claire activates the breakout rooms to to take note of what number breakout room you're going into. And the reason for that is we have prepared a, we have prepared a Google slide doc here very simple with a table on it. And that mimics the original ABC storyboard. And there's a number of different slides and as you see slide one is breakout room one slide two is breakout room two etc. So when you arrive into your breakout room, what you need to do is say hello to your colleagues in the breakout room, spend no more than a minute deciding on what course you would like to design either the academic writing course or the team making course. And then what you can do is you can access the sample learning outcomes from that course as well to help get you started. You can also access a reference list of the different learning types and the learning activities from the top of the of the slide. And then having that conversation because again as Clive said earlier, ABC is about socializing learning design and having conversations and making decisions around learning design. So in your breakout room, talk with your colleagues and decide for the learning outcomes for your particular course, what are the best types of learning, what are the best learning types and learning activities that should be chosen. So let's populate on the table here on the slide. And as I said there's one slide per breakout rooms to just go down the Google slide stock here, find your particular breakout room and and start working. Is that clear enough for folks so do we have any questions on that. Good stuff. So if that's okay then with everyone I'm going to create the breakout rooms just to reiterate do take a note of the room number that you see. What will happen is also just folks just click the link I just put in the in the in the chat there as well to open the slides before you go into the breakout room. You have to see that now we have to see the template okay. So if that's okay I'm going to create create the rooms then and we will pop in and out of the sessions. No pressure we're just there there to answer questions and see how you're getting on with it. And we'll give you a till about 1115 Rob is that correct. And then we'll then we'll reconvene we'll see we go and see about 10 minutes or so to have a think about where you would start with this and if you get, if you get the two. You know, if you get the full thing don't great but if you don't don't worry too much about it either where there's no test involved here we just want to give you a sense of how it might work. Okay. All right, so we'll see you in a bit. So one thanks a million for whatever however far you got in that session. We're just going to have a quick recap. Rob is just going to have a quick recap on, you know, what's a marriage shall we say from from this so far, and hope hope hope it was useful to you so far but Rob, any comments on it. Very interesting. Obviously, you know, this is somewhat of an artificial storyboarding scenario in a real situation to have much more time and to work through it. But again, you know, we've chosen our tools to be very simple and very accessible to people something like a shared Google Doc I know there are others out there I think Sean mentioned in the chat earlier that he has a pad let that he uses for I know other people use tools like Trello et cetera we decided to keep things kind of quite simple using Google Slides or Google Docs just so people can can access it quickly and easily. And I can see from the the different slides there's some good activity coming on through here which is good. So, we have for example here, you know, acquisition here under introduction to academic conduct. We have introductory video a glossary of terms acquisition. We can see a mix here if we look at breakout room for a mix here of different learning types acquisition discussion investigation, sampling different tea comparing experiences of drinking tea investigating the forms and different types of tea, demonstrating tea, blending tea so go good, good mix of different learning types and activities there in in breakout room for so well done you're very invested in your team making. Again, break it in five around academic integrity, different types of activities and different learning types being blended together here are things like quizzes things like live chats, reading and watching videos reflection, and producing a mind map So, some some breakout rooms really I think I think you know, getting into the spirit of things and choosing from the available learning types and learning activities to create a really nice mix in their in their particular courses. And I think, you know, oftentimes I think when when certainly my reflection is, you know when people do ABC, certainly for the first time they sometimes mean heavily towards acquisition activities and the acquisition learning type. But I'm seeing here a really really good mixed discussion collaboration practice etc. So some good choices there I think you're all, you've all been making. So, so well done, well done it can be difficult, particularly if you're new to learning types and learning activities it can be difficult to, you know, meaningfully choose the right ones for your particular context but you seem to have gotten into the, into the swing of things there So thanks very much and hopefully you, hopefully you enjoyed that you might let us know in the chat how you found using that slide document, how you found using that template and again that template is in the is in the is in the toolkit for you. You'll notice in the in the first three columns of the of the table here on the slides are very much your classic ABC, deciding on your learning types your own activities that the last three columns we added in ourselves, I suppose, just for our own context to get people to think about the practicalities of how they will design the activities and and how long they would last for etc so that's a little addition we made on top of the kind of the classic ABC storyboard elements. So I'll stop sharing there now. And I think I'll hand over to Suzanne now I think it is to show another way of storyboarding with you. Thanks very much Rob. And yeah, so I guess it this could be another way of storyboarding but it also could be and fleshing out the the storyboarding process that's been kickstarted in the breakout rooms and Natasha, I think, used a really nice phrase earlier taken from the birds eye view to the kind of the more detailed and the more detailed process and sorry just having a problem sharing here. Can you see my screen guys. Yeah. Okay brilliant excellent so the the storyboarding process is obviously creating a digital or a visual map of the learning experience and what we used in addition to what you the template that you just used in the breakout rooms I guess facilitates several groups working together in the breakout rooms to kickstart that process. This is another type of document that we've used which is a very simple Google document. And it does allow the group to kind of flesh out the learning activities in a little bit more detail. And you can see here, we've kind of tried to emulate the face to face process with the really nice cards, etc. You know, it's not, it's not exactly the same and, but it, we've decided to keep it very simple and other people have used different tools like Jamboard. I think I met somebody mentioned Padlet earlier, and we've certainly explored those options but we decided ourselves to keep it kind of simple in the Google Doc format. And, you know, you can see here that what we've done is this is a kind of a sample of all the storyboard and in this process that I suppose the tips that we would have for you in the online experiences. When you're in the face to face context, it's quite easy to explain the storyboard in process whereas when you're in the online context, you're really under pressure time wise to get through all the various steps. So what we did, and we've made the video available in the two cuts as well for you, it's Article 5B, is we created a video just to explain the process involved in storyboarding and the purpose of the storyboarding process. We found that has worked really well because it was just taking us too long in the online context to kind of go through the steps with people. So we would advise that you consider using that video just just to speed things up for yourselves. And then just as those other tips that we have in terms of explaining and making sure that the storyboarding process runs smoothly, keep in mind that the storyboarding process is likely to continue after the facilitated session. So people, the participants may be working on the storyboarding, advancing the storyboarding on their own, so you really need to check that they understand the process. It's quite a straightforward process, but just allow sometimes to answer questions around the process just in case, just to check and make sure that they understand what they're doing with the storyboard when they take it offline or out of the facilitated session. And then after the storyboarding process, what we've built into this document, actually just an important point as well, what we've done here is we've popped the learning type cards, the back of the card with the detail around the actual learning activity options or just some sample learning activity options into the document just by way of reference, just to keep everything, everything together for people so that they can use that as a reference point. At DCU, what we've also done is we've incorporated universal design for learning prompts. They weren't part of the original ABC process, but we've added those in. And again, they are available to you to adapt for your own context should you wish. The next step then after the storyboarding is to the action plan and just give me a moment to get the action plan up for you. Where are we now? And the action plan is essentially the next steps that the group, once they have storyboards, their learning experience. The next step is to have an action plan so that they can, here we go. Okay, so we built that into the actual, into the storyboarding document just because I guess one builds on the other. So the action plan is what are the next steps to advance the creation of the learning activities. And you'll see here again, very simple, we keep everything very simple here, action plan item, who is going to work on that action plan item and when is it due to be completed. Just I guess to give people a little bit of focus beyond the storyboard and items that would come up regularly on the action plan would be, you know, if people have decided that they want to use H5P interactive learning activity type, they may need some training around H5P or something that came up in this discussion earlier around discussion boards, the use of discussion boards. So, you know, setting up technically a discussion board on an online space is quite, you know, is reasonably easy to achieve. But people, participants may need some training or advice or consultation around how to maximize the effectiveness of a discussion board. So those kind of things come up regularly on the action plan. And I suppose the action plan allows us as well as facilities just kind of take a look at what the next steps are and maybe check in with the group later to kind of see if the action plan has been advanced in some way after we've completed the facilitation of the learning design process. So that's, that's I mean they're very straightforward documents they're all available in the toolkit and I'll just show you where you can find them what their artifacts 5A5B and that's it I think I'll just share the link with you to the bit list so that you have it to hand. And but that's it for me, guys. Yes, the UDL prompts more. They have, you know, they have gone down really well with people I guess just to kind of remind people of their kind of the UDL principles and framework and tie them into the design process. It worked really well for us so far. Great. Thanks. Thanks a million for that Suzanne and Robin did thanks a little for that. So, if it's okay, we'll move on to the to the next stages. And I suppose thinking about the process overall. I'm just going to share another few slides with you here to explain what happens, what happens next. So you're seeing my follow up slide on screen okay at the moment. You just need presentation of you. Yeah. Okay, sure. Okay. So, open to this point. We've talked about our pre ABC activity, then we've had quite a few stages of talking about what happens within the online ABC workshop on on zoom. So at this stage what I'm going to talk about now we're assuming the workshop has happened and people have gotten to a certain point with their storyboards. We don't always certainly get them completed, but you would hope that people are leaving the session with a, you know, a good much stronger sense of the general direction of travel. A sense of what their colleagues are thinking in relation to a particular module because that is just what's so important here and so fundamental to the process. Then there is the conundrum of what happens next, because what we don't want to happen really and that is it is a challenge indeed for any kind of workshop not not just ABC in that you one can spend a lot of time facilitating and putting a lot of time and energy into training and running sessions, but maybe sometimes great ideas are discussed inspiration happens but perhaps it stays at the workshop and not actually into the student learning experience as one would hope. So what we try to do to counteract that issue is a few different things. First of all, one of the things we found really useful is that we have a cement centralized hub for our ABC learning design resources so this is a page so as soon as, as soon as somebody is expressing interest or coming to a workshop. This is where we store for example the pre ABC activity we give them a sense of what the workshop is about, and we kind of use this as a central area for people to explore ABC learning design, both before and more importantly in our case indeed after the workshop itself. So, you can see that what what we do is we make some information available to everyone but one of the important things we do here is that we, after the workshop itself, what we do is we cure it we provide the teams with what we would call a curated set of videos and guidance around particular technologies that came up within the workshop. So we're trying to in some ways not overwhelm people with masses of information. But we do want to we're conscious that an ABC workshop, if it comes up for example that somebody's really interested in using H5P, well we're not going to be able to get into the how to have H5P at the workshop. We will probably need to give direction to staff in that afterwards. So we're trying to, you know, as much as possible of that online afterwards sometimes, you know, an extra workshop is needed to explain a new technology and, and that but in the we already have a huge bank of resources things like videos and and tech supports around various technologies that we've been using. So what we try to do is point staff in the direction of those let them know exactly where, if they had expressed an interest in three or four, say, new technologies or things like that we point them in the direction of where they can learn how to actually implement those and we do all that through this kind of centralized ABC. So that's addressing the first two points there. We also developed as you'll see in the on the slide as well over on the right, we developed something called the ABC to VLE plus up wheel. And I'm not going to, we're not going to have time to go too much into that now, but there is a link to that in the slides and you can explore what that is. But again, it's about what that wheel is about is following up on the ideas that were expressed at the workshop, and then giving people the practical guidance of how to make those designs a reality afterwards when they're when they're back at base, so to speak. Another thing I'd like to do though really to kind of as as we head towards wrapping up this session is have a conversation and I'd really like to get your input on this as well. Over the next couple of slides is really to have a chat about essentially our top tips, based on our experiences for facilitating ABC online. And they're there on the screen I'll just briefly run through those to explain what I mean. And where possible work with a team lead a course or a program lead well in advance of the workshop because that person will give you the context that you may not understand in relation to these, this particular group so it is really important to work with and also even I'm talking about to help you organize some of the logistics as well. I think it's really important to have a central liaison, as I said usually the program lead, and that will be really helpful to make sure that the workshop is tailored to the group and as useful to the group as possible. It's always good and I'm sure some of you might be smiling, Riley at the second bullet point it's good to have participants invited into the process and it'd be a very voluntary thing. And that's something we want to ensure, but there can be occasions when there are people at ABC workshops who don't particularly want to be there, and we'll talk about some of those in a minute. The real top tip we found is very important for people to do the pre work, have the think about it beforehand. Not every, you know, speaking perfectly frankly not everybody does, we can can actually make people do that but we certainly do try to encourage and we're probably going to strengthen some of our feel like terms of reference around that to make that stronger to make sure that people come having done the advanced work because it's then it's more productive for everyone's time. Now we've broken our own rule as you can see here in the last in the in the next bullet of, we would say, keep to a max of 12 participants session we had far more than that today. And we're being a little bit experimental and seeing seeing how far we can push things there but ideally, and especially if you're starting out, keep your numbers small and learn from it as you go. Another thing that's been an interesting point is people do sometimes come to the workshops expecting what I would call training, and kind of like maybe not expect to do have to engage in which activity as as they are required to do in an ABC. There's not any picture that it's not training. It's a, it's a design workshop and I think that's an important principle for everyone to be clear on and to understand. You're very welcome to reuse absolutely everything we have here today. As you'll see there's there's creative commons licensing applied throughout your welcome to use them. You know, please try to use the licensing consistently. And we really do want to discuss and share experiences from you in the future. Now I have a link to a national forum seminar link which I'll come back to for feedback on the session but we'll come back to that in a minute because we're not quite finished yet. So I don't want you going off in a tangent just yet because still on the topic of facilitation. We thought it would be interesting to explore this idea of getting input from you all in terms of ways and approaches or tips for dealing with different types of challenging I would say challenging participants who might be coming to an ABC workshop, or indeed, in fact, this would apply probably to almost any workshop but it's particularly relevant. I think in ABC, because it's a very tightly timed and very highly structured nature of it. So, just to get the ball rolling. So many of you have come across this type of personality would call them would call them Tony, the talker, and Tony might be the kind of person who's very comfortable shall we say with the sound of their own voice. There might be a little bit inclined to dominate sessions and actually can be quite tricky to interrupt when, when they, when they, when they get very, shall we say mid flow. Well, if somebody does talk excessively and that's what I'm talking about here at a session your timings are going to get seriously derailed, and more importantly really, you're only going to hear one person's perspective, which can be very frustrating for for everybody else there. So what I'd like you to do is in the chat now, and please give us your thoughts and suggestions for how one might overcome this issue of such such such, shall we say such a presence within your workshop. Okay. Great, I can see Marie is starting to to come in. Great, great ideas coming through there use round table rules everyone speaks one very nice. Somebody is admitting they are Tony the talker, but maybe this workshop could be a very reflective exercise there for you Mary if that's if that's the case. Muse Tony that is that is that is a possibility. Yes, that is a possibility. And perhaps that's an advantage of the online version. That's an advantage of the online version rather than the, rather than the shall we say the face to face so that's something interesting. What else use the chat please Tony. Yes, definitely. That kind of thing. Ask all to limit times to a minute each very good thank you Katrina for that. And that she uses a car park to park ideas that are interesting but relevant to the discussion. Absolutely. That's a really, really good thought and I've seen that happen. And remembered a bit late to do that myself, I have to say in the past where you're saying. Good point. Can we come back to that later after we've gone, we've gone through the session itself so very good. It's great. Limiting time very good layout expectations it is part of expectation setting you're absolutely right Brian and relevant to the conversation Olivia saying yeah, yeah. Oh, sorry, I meant not relevant to the conversation that's fine. And then Thomas is saying have a quick word with Tony during a breakout room per chat that's very good. Yes. That's very good ideas brilliant ideas coming in through here. What's this image. It's got something interesting here. One person was always talking. Oh, very good I'm just reading that now so this is just if Tony says we need to talk to department X that the facility would get Tony to leave the room. Well, that's a very, that's one way of doing it ever. That's that's good. Thank you for that. That's definitely one way. So, yes, a couple of people admitting this has made them realize that they are Tony the talker, but look, sharing is good. You don't want to have you know there's other scenarios I'm going to stop for it stop now. Let us consider some other scenarios. You know, and if you think of any more in relation to Tony the talker put them in, put them in the chat and embers finishing there saying that the real progress was made once, once Tony was gone. But look what I want you to do is keep keep thinking about giving us your suggestions for ways of shall we say mitigating that Tony the talker type of scenario. Tony isn't the only problem. So now we have Senna Sulkar. Yes, I think we all know Senna we've all encountered a Senna in in in our lives and I think, at least Tony at least, at least per Tony might be dominant and might be might be taking up all the time in the space but at least Tony is energetic and invested and is is out there putting what do you do with the likes of Senna. So Senna is this person who's just a ball of negativity, just sitting in the corner, sitting silently, not engaging. And it's just like that elephant in the room everyone else is trying to get engaged with Senna is there in the corner, just sulk and just with a pus on their face altogether they don't want to be there. Their arms folded their puffing and puffing, they're playing on their phone they're looking around them they just don't want to be there they don't want to be there maybe they don't buy into the process maybe they don't like the people they're in the room with, you know, or maybe they maybe they made an attempt to get involved maybe at the start they started making some suggestions around learning activities and learning types but the group discussion the group consensus moved elsewhere. And they're unhappy they're sulking that their suggestions weren't weren't incorporated into the overall group decision. So for whatever reason they're just sulking a big ball of negativity. What can you do to try and mitigate that problem online. Any suggestions from people. My friend says they're not always sulking silently as well yeah they can be there openly openly being negative about the process Katrina saying give Senna chocolate. Okay, bribe them. It's kind of like when you're when you're dealing with a toddler or something try to bribe them with some sweets to get them to get them to behave. And the owner saying related to their personal experience expertise and positively seek contribution. So with a person like that you might have to maybe just be a little bit more conscious and sort of call them out and be like okay well send over what do you think and in your experience and so on in a very supportive way I imagine to try to try coax them a little bit Lorraine great suggestion there have some direct questions to ask Senna so directing something to send related to their particular field or their particular area of interest and as Marie says their inclusion is better than exclusion and that's what you want in the ABC workshop is to have everyone feel feel engaged and feel feel feel a part of the process. It gives them tasks to do summarise the group's thoughts yeah that's another good idea. Another good idea give them something practical to do. Tell Senna you can see they probably have something else they need to be doing and suggest they leave and catch up. Okay yeah that's that's that's a thing as well I mean if someone doesn't want to be there maybe maybe you let them know it's okay it's okay for them not to be there. If they're not if they're not invested in the process. Yeah, Katrina sir I like that idea by giving Senna tasks I haven't thought about that before that's a very good suggestion Lorraine yeah okay we have a couple of strategies there for dealing with Senna the sulker and hopefully getting that getting that sour pus off their face but again Senna is just one type of person there's another type of person that might come to our ABC workshop and that's Sharon the shy. Okay so Sharon the shy and just I guess you know it's all about balance isn't it at Tony the talker Sharon the shot shy and Senna the sulker. Yeah so Sharon the shy any advice on trying to engage somebody who just isn't you can tell that I suppose that the difference is from Senna the sulker that Sharon the shy is not obstructive I guess or doesn't have that body language that but Rob mentioned the folded arms I'm not engaging I just don't want to be here. You can see that perhaps they have something to offer butter but too shy to speak up and any kind of strategies for that I guess we could adapt some of the strategies to manage Tony in this context but one thing that we've tried and it's worked quite well is is to have in advance of a session to create a space where people can comment anonymously so that everybody can use their voice but they don't have to put their name to it because sometimes just that's Sharon the shy they genuinely are too shy to put their their thoughts forward and chat box and anonymous post yet perfect exactly the same. Paired discussions like that small breakout rooms actually comes back that works really well as and as a strategy for the shy people within the group. I asked Sharon to chair the meeting we might scare for sure with that one. What interesting Mary Ann and meant meter yes absolutely and what we've used in the past is a jam board, which also works really well I guess just the anonymity is nice there. I just want to pick up on something else there. Center for Center or that was related to center there yeah excellent. Yeah and I think you know I mean sometimes and taking turn taking can work in some context sometimes you might run out of time, but that's another really effective strategy. Sometimes you know, and actually asking somebody if they if they're if there's a reluctance there and if you've got a couple of Tony the talkers just calling on people to to speak up with can make them a little bit uncomfortable but as somebody mentioned in the chat earlier inclusion is better than exclusions so sometimes you just have to put Sharon out of her comfort zone, safe environment, yes. And I think a little, you know, a little kind of encouragement at the start of a discussion that you know everybody's voice is important, you know, kind of calling it out at the start can work really well to. Katrina agree given people confidence and recognizing inputs from everybody I think that's really important. Excellent thanks for those strategies guys and I think we're going to collate all those ideas together because I think that's quite a useful. Addition to our kind of tips and tricks. Thanks very much guys back to you Claire then. Thanks very much really great ideas there everyone and please do keep them coming that's that's really interesting to hear your thoughts on those and I sense some personal experiences are definitely behind many of those suggestions and I feel your pain that's that's all I can say so. Thank you for sharing those. Actually, is there any other kind of personality or I should maybe call them personality maybe maybe you call them a persona of someone any other kinds that maybe we haven't thought of yet in this conversation. Anybody think of anybody else might be a challenging workshop participant. I leave you to think on that the overall very thank you. Thanks very much. The overwhelming participant that's a great point Katrina and isn't that just so hard to spot. And that's a really great point because you know certainly one of the criticisms. I think about certainly in the initial response to put to covert the pandemic was so many people were overwhelmed with resources I think I think that really brought home to me how how easy it is for what one is trying to be helpful that sometimes giving too much or asking people to do too much is is problematic obviously and yeah I can I can see how. I can picture in my head that kind of person and they maybe step back a little bit from the workshop and it's okay to have that mixes as we've said here, we can't have all of everyone but gentle encouragement and seeing what other people are doing and maybe the next time they come to a workshop they'll be, they'll be more able to participate that's another other thing to keep in mind. And, and yeah, and just lastly on that that that's not the way we do things around here person amateur absolutely right, you know, and that sometimes is the, I would say that's sometimes at the root of Senate the soul. Maybe who is, you know to put it diplomatically very resistant to change of any kind, and really just wants to stick with the status quo. And obviously, when you're trying to do something different that is really challenging so thank you for that suggestion as well. So, look. There is. Yeah, we can see lots of nudging techniques Rob suggests to get the traditionalist to try something new that's that's very good. Very good. And just my last comment on that before we wrap up or last question that I see from Lorraine in the chat there she's got a good question about how do you get buy in from lectures to engage. And you mean come to a workshop, maybe Lorraine feel free to kind of take the mic on that one actually for a minute. And just to tell us what what you mean there. I suppose it comes back to lectures being silos and moving into that world where we do sit down. And that you know so so often your you go off at your module and your and your left people that are on devices. So this is quite a radical change process for our lectures so I suppose the incentives maybe and rewards do you find that they work. It, well essentially I'd like to hear Suzanne and Rob say as well but I suppose, I mean the incentive is wanting to change the team you know recognising that there's an issue with the current situation and the currently current way things are being taught on a module and program so certainly there's no we wouldn't offer any specific incentives now or anything like that for people people to come to workshops, you know people usually are coming to us they hear about the approach, the word about this positive. A key aspect of it is the duration. I think the fact that we can say you can get an awful lot done within two hours if you follow a very structured framework. That's a huge encouragement, I think for people to engage rather than full day, two day, three day, you know workshop or events, which is just so difficult for people to get the time to attend so I think the duration is definitely an attractive very attractive element to it. I think as well on that point Claire I know we are at the moment are putting together some case studies around ABC that we'll have on our on our website soon enough from from different discipline groups that we worked with and had a positive experience. So I think Lorraine if you're trying to encourage somebody to redesign the module and engage in ABC I think if you can find examples of where it has worked in their same discipline in another institution or elsewhere. It's a long way to open their eyes and I know we'll, we'll have some case studies up on our website at some point in the near future. And I'm sure there's plenty more out there in available as well but I think that's really really good is not just very BC for any type of enhancement activity is finding examples for your lecture from their particular discipline I think that opens up their eyes a bit. Thanks Lorraine and thanks, thanks Rob and I see Natasha echoing what Rob is saying there as well on that point. And let's see now because we're almost up to the hour. And I see if we haven't gotten to all of the questions. We will get back to those later or you could you can, I think it's probably best at this point to say that, you know, we do want to give give our details if there's a question or a comment that you have that hasn't been sufficiently addressed for you today. You can see our emails there. Certainly if you want to contact, contact specifically in relation to the DCU approach. But as, as Clive and Natasha said you're going to find so much case studies, resources, interesting examples, toolkits by the new time, some of which have been localized in different languages. So much material and background in relation to ABC at this site ABC dash LD dot org. So it's certainly encourage you to check that out if you're, if you're interested in learning more about the approach. So thank you all I think at this point thank you all very much for coming along today. I hope you've gotten a sense of where you can find further useful resources in relation to ABC. I hope you found the activities themselves in some way helpful, as I said a taster. And I hope that maybe it's giving you a sense of something that you might work further on or try again maybe in a slightly different way. You do have, I hope all the tools, you might need to run the workshops now as I said they're all made available in that toolkit and would suggest starting small I was just going to close and the fact that, you know, we did a big session here today. Certainly some pros but there's some disadvantages to that. If you're going yourself early definitely starts more low stakes if at all possible. And that would be certainly a course of action would recommend. So, just on that note, thank you all. Thanks a million to my co facilitators and also to Clive and Natasha of course for for being here today was brilliant I'm delighted you were both here really interested to hear what you thought. And just everyone you know that we will be sharing the recording of this session in due course give us a little bit of time for that we might submit it might be needed. And you will it will be shared with you in due course so it's really nice to see those positive comments coming through there from so many of you. If it, if it does anything further you want to talk about you know where we are. So I think, I think we'll leave it at that and if you need to head off please do and enjoy the rest of your day and indeed have a good weekend everyone. Thank you. Thank you.