 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by my friend Kurt Ekstrom, who is a collector player and an expert on WFL drums. Kurt, welcome to the podcast Hi, how's it going? Good. Glad to have you here I've heard your name around the the community for a while of really being a kind of an authority on this stuff and WFL is really an interesting topic because it's sort of like a It's just a it's kind of a confusing thing sometimes when people look at well, is it Ludwig? Is it is it not Ludwig was Ludwig going on while WFL existed, which we'll talk about So maybe we just start a little bit with what got you into these this specific brand to study and collect so I I'll try not to be too long-winded with it, but I started playing drums when I was around 12 years old and Everybody that I liked or everybody that I at least Discovered was playing a Ludwig set. I didn't really know anything else It was like the early 80s and all I remember seeing with those blow all the badges and that was a big Van Halen fan All that stuff and my teacher everybody played Ludwigs And so when it came time to get a first set I just was all I could think was I wonder what that Ludwig sets gonna look like and my teacher of course was like What does get a U-set so I was like, uh, what does that mean? And so of course, I I want to put the Grecs, which I still own but I always wanted that Ludwig and so I Ordered a brand new set around 1990 and it was it was a nice set but I started really getting into like the whole vintage thing just caught my ear like buddy rich and all that other stuff and John Denz more and and so I started researching like a little bit on my own about old You know like 60s Ludwigs and then made me start going, okay Well, what what came before that because there was no internet and there was no none of this stuff and so What really got me onto the WFL stuff was I was reading modern drummer And I saw an article by Harry Kangini about the twin strainer WFL and I was like wow That is a really cool-looking drum like I just never seen anything like it. I was really drawn towards it and Basically what happened was is I just kind of said to myself I'd like to see one of those just so I could see what one looks like and My mom at the time had been like, you know, if you're gonna start collecting drums You probably should like start looking at auctions and looking at the newspaper and blah blah So I did and I started, you know, I saw an auction It just said Ludwig drum set with symbols and it didn't say anything And so I went to this auction and looked around and I was like, I don't see a drum set Eventually in the back corner. There was an old bass drum that was really old And there was some like rusted old hardware And I saw the top head of a drum in this case and I pulled it out and I was dropped it because it was a Mint like original 1937 WFL twin strainer like nicer than the one Henry had put and I was like Are you kidding me right now? And so I saw of course I had to wait and through this auction and the port the other the poor guys You know belongings and stuff from his whole life was all over the lawn while they auctioned away as you know His Lionel trains and all this stuff. And yeah, and so long story short I battled out the drum and won it for like 55 bucks. And so Yeah, so that was back in 1993. So that was that started by whole like, okay I'm a WFL guy like well, what is this stuff and what how do I and so Basically, I started going to drum shows around that and I started, you know, looking for catalogs and so every time I would go to a drum show I would hunt around the parts bins and all that and Eventually like, you know, I'd scour anything that said WFL on it And so I created my own little horde of pieces and parts for over the years like a little squirrel collecting nuts You know, like so, yeah, I just gotta work out that way long story short. Yeah answer your your earlier question I'm a definitely a proponent of the so many that you know says WFLs are actually the Ludwigs So William F. Ludwig started those and you know, that's you know, I pay, you know I have a lot of respect for William F. Ludwig and the way they started and all that and so the the Ludwig and Ludwigs are the imposters That's which we're gonna talk about that because Ludwig does have like the the iterations of Ludwig and Ludwig Ledy and Ludwig Ludwig and there's WFL. Yeah, and I also find it funny how the actual Kurt Ludwig company a lot of times It's just and nobody else cares. This is me for geeky on this stuff But they they mix and match stuff that would have been, you know cons Ludwig versus modern year WFLs Ludwig And so so it's kind of funny like when I see classic lugs in a top at cane finish that are from two different, you know Yeah. Yeah. So I think There's been some some, you know, we've had a lot of Ludwig episodes on the show and actually like a couple weeks ago Uli Salazar was on doing a supersonic episode, which normally I like to kind of like, you know Have a lot of variety, but it just lined up where we were doing a WFL one pretty soon to that. So Just take us through What happened and not the whole 1909 history of that's kind of been covered people can find that I'll put links in the description for previous Ludwig episodes, but Maybe let's pick it up because I mean if I'm not mistaken WFL was 1937 to 1955. Is that right? Yeah, 54 maybe, you know, well, the batches ran longer like like one common theme that'll run throughout Ludwig throughout history All together is that William F. Ludwig Lived through a depression and he just never liked to waste anything. So they used up like literally everything until it was gone Yeah, and it didn't really matter what the, you know, the little the monochrome or the logo on it was it was just We're using this because it works and we still have some left. Yeah. Yeah. So, um That being said, let's kind of get into the history of this and figure out what happened. So, uh, because like I mean It's it's Ludwig and Ludwig in that point. Um The fia bold Correct was the brother and yes, he had passed away Like influenza or something pretty early on in the history of okay, which is uh, it's interesting It's kind of like the almond brothers how dwayne almond died pretty early on but they remained the almond brothers, um for until today, but um All right, so what happened? Why did it become a separate company? so So basically in the end of the 20s Ludwig and Ludwig got into the banjo business and plus the uh, the The advent of the talkies came out. So it sort of put the pit drummers on to work a little bit And so those two things like they got really heavily into the banjos and been geared up for it And then like the depression hit and it just everything just kind of fell Fell apart and so Ulysses Lady was actually the first one to like to sell the con So they got, you know Lady con pick them up and then Ludwig followed suit probably, you know 1929 1830 or somewhere around there and so but from what I understand William if Ludwig senior was a promise that you know, you could still run things It's your company blah blah blah will will still keep things going the way they had been It's just you know now they're going to be run by con Well, uh, apparently not shortly after that They moved all their operations and processes down to indianapolis where Lady was So the only way I can think of it is they had like a big huge factory And on one side of the building there are the makings, you know, the Ludwig and Ludwig's and on the other side They're making the Lady stuff. Yeah, and according to mr. Ludwig He got frustrated just because more attention and funds were being put into Lady Versus the Ludwig and then whenever he had ideas or things that he wanted to do They just just didn't really get a listen to him and he kind of get shut down and and I think he just got frustrated And after about six years He decided to you know, I I just can't do this anymore I'd rather rather have my own company and he and his wife talked it out and had long talks over it and they just decided you know, I'm going to try this And sadly what they say is that when he his stock that was worth a million dollars in 1929 Dwindled down to like a hundred thousand dollars In 1937 and so, you know, he opened or he bought the building on north david av 1728 and started a factory and Uh, according according to william f. Ludwig the second spoke they opened for business on april 1st in 1937 But they didn't you know, they didn't have a lot of footing. They didn't have a lot of you know ground because Um, people just didn't know who they were but but they also on the very first early badges They had a badge. They had a little lyre design at the top of it And then they used um, you know said william f. Ludwig drum company at the bottom And they had a badge was a keystone badge because uh, william f. Ludwig wanted to Differentiate himself completely from everybody else that had oval badges or square badges and and he liked You know the keystone for the uh, the pen the oil motor logo and stuff like that and the sure and stuff So he went with a keystone design But it was probably within By so if they opened in april it was probably by like the fall where con pointed out like, you know Hey, he can't be using the Ludwig name. We own that and and so it was decided that they should switch And so after many thoughts of what should we name this? They decided they would call it the wfl drum company shortly after that like it's really kind of bizarre because I've had a lot of uh, pre-war wfl stuff and it blows my mind how many different badges i've come across With you know, like some of them will say, you know, wfl drum company They'll put the address at the bottom someone will just say, you know wfl drum company and then it says william f. Ludwig president Or you know, they're still putting you know, it's his name. So there's still some of them say william f. Ludwig around the air hole You know, so they're still trying to get that on there somehow because it's obvious But i'll say it because the name recognition is what they want to keep because right Ludwig has built I mean they're they're at that point are still already a very well established company I mean they've been around since 1909. So it was like Pretty important. I guess they were doing everything possible to yes And it's also going to be tough if you thought about, you know, you're doing the company and it's your name, you know, like You know, like I mean, it's got to be I don't know It's gonna be tricky. So Yeah, yeah, that must that's that's a hard thing That must be emotionally kind of like draining to be like, I just want to use my own name But yeah, so if you find a drum that says william f. Ludwig in some capacity with you know, some arrangement That means it's likely a 1937 ish before it so basically the The 1937 ish ones will say Not a william f. Ludwig drum company on it doesn't say wfl drum company anywhere and have the lower up top Yes, and so after that they'll say at the top of the badge and block the letters like wfl drum company Um, okay, and they'll something like that and then they'll have a variation maybe at the bottom You know so president or whatever and that's the air hole. Yeah, that's what we I think traditionally see is that block Kind of art deco ish wfl, which is which is really cool But god you you think too about 1937 and just this it's like pre-war. It's like great depression era I mean, it's really a rough time to be starting a business. But what else is he gonna do? I mean, this is this is his life Exactly, and I think those are the kind of things that he talked about with his wife where he was just like, you know I think in uh, again, there's a great book that william f. Ludwig the second wrote and it's got a lot of history in it As far as like stuff that you would never find anywhere else and he talks about how You know, his father had conversations With his mother about like well, maybe we should buy this apartment building and I'll manage the building You know, but it's like, you don't want to do that. Yeah, he's a he's a drum guy You know, he loves drums and and I think after some hard talks, they just like, you know, this is what we want to do and It was hard because uh, it was real rough in the beginning They just didn't have anything and they even went so far as to like Ironically because the building they bought was around the corner from the Ludwig and Ludwig's You know original factory and so they were by Like pieces and parts from Ludwig and Ludwig Like like leg rests and things like that for like marching drums Oh, wow, just because they needed them and they didn't have the tools to machine them yet And so it was it was just kind of weird for them to like buy them Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm sure a lot of like the Ludwig and Ludwig employees or even then we're like, you know, like, um Hey bill Yeah, I mean, they're they're not like enemies. I mean, it's just something that happened on a On a corporate business level and I've heard you that they actually um, you know It was kind of humiliating for William if love the second because every now and then you'd have to walk over to Ludwig and Ludwig factory Um and pick up bail they got misdirected And uh, and I think the what the Ludwig and Ludwig factory wasn't where they really built stuff anymore I think it was more of a corporate office But I say like on wallcott avenue or whatever it was But I think you know mail would come there and you know He'd have to go over there and retrieve it or something like silly like that. Yeah, that's that's just kind of awkward But all right, so so let's talk early on 37 because Sooner than later we're going to get into like the war era stuff because that's kind of a mid That's like the the middle chunk of all of this but yeah, let's talk about maybe initial offerings Like where they where they like traditionally, I mean some companies I feel like even nowadays they start off making snare drums or something like that Did did he go full bore drum sets right off the bat or what was the production like? It looks like they really did go full bore drum sets Like it just if there's so many questions that I would just love to ask William of Ludwig like for people for guys that basically had no tools and no money and and they it sounds like they had a staff of about You know, like maybe two dozen people and and and they were making drum sets. I mean They actually had an engineer named Cecil Strug who came up with a log design I believe they had the spring loaded inserts in it and that was if they were Ludwig WFL was the first company that offered a log with a spring loaded insert in it because prior to that, you know People would just tap directly into a log which could Potentially with especially with the calf heads constantly going in and out of tune You know constituting, you know people could tend to strip a log but Of course, you know that that was their high-end log and then they offered another log which was called the zephyr log which was Modeled after the zephyr train and and as far as history goes I guess the zephyr train came you know was a thing in the 30s And so I've heard that everything was streamlined like you know because people loved the look so much They even toasters and stuff could look you know have a screen line look to them like as you know So they created these zephyr lugs which I've heard a lot of people complain and say they don't like them I I love they're they're like tanks I mean if you're careful and you thread them in because they don't have any spring inserts and they tap directly in But you're just going to be careful when you put them in you know, and you're just going to make sure you don't crank down on them Like carelessly and and they're great. But and they have a really cool art deco look to them and a 40s look to them Yeah, they do. I'm looking at them now and and that's so neat. I mean, it's just such a I feel like wfl Was it a very special time in in history, you know with art? Absolutely. Yeah one of their one of their big Things that they faced very early on too, of course was getting like obviously endorsers that they could use to Sort of help promote the company and so their first big endorser was uh, rape a duke and so he was with bob crossby and And and so he was the one that you know, they modeled the twin strainer You know snare drum after and and it had the new, you know, those the spring loaded lugs and then Cecil strew came up with the you know, where they took a There's confusing stories that if it was either Cecil strew or William F. Ludwig But one of them, you know, took a pair of pliers to a pair of straight hoops and basically bent the edges back to create a triple flange tube And and so, you know, they were like one of the probably the first to offer something like that They had a lot of firsts and things like that and William F. Ludwig had a lot of great ideas and Cecil strew was a great engineer and blah blah And so um, yeah Didn't Cecil strew have involvement in something that was like a it might have been with ledie, but it was like Lady and strew drums. Yeah, lady strew. Yeah, because it was it was like the they were messing with the the single knob tension kind of Things like well, I think single knob tension was later like like late 40s into 50s But I think lady and strew was just a real short lived in the early 30s You know, they had something going where they were, you know making making something It may have been like when ulysses as lady left, you know, lady and sold the con I think it was like his little I think I think lady passed away early on I can't remember But I think it was one of his last, you know outings with trying to get a put a drum out there Yeah, so it may have been something to do with that But then sure it didn't last long obviously and Cecil ended up coming to work for wfl And created a lot of really cool designs. Yeah, but an unsung hero like many These names that come up where it's good to kind of actually shine some light on him But um, yeah, he probably could do a whole you probably, you know If there was more info on him, you could probably do a whole episode on him Yeah So the the twin strainer snare, is that what you call it correct? Yes. Can you explain that technology a little bit? So it is a snare drum that um, that has a left and a right side strainer to it And then they would have fixed at the bottom like maybe like a regular set of Normal snares that were like 10 strand and then maybe the other side would be like silk Or like gut snares or something like that like a sixth strand And so you'd have the option of putting them both on or one on or you know, you know either or so Um, so it was pretty unique design, you know, uh, which is you know later on you'll see like Uh, maybe the 90s or 2000. I can't remember when Dave Weckel had a yamaha double strainer drum That was kind of you know somewhat of a throwback to that Sure But I mean this was pretty you know, nobody nobody had anything like it in the 30s Everybody always had regular snares or even some companies had you know, the snare had the snares at the bottom of the top head Which was kind of a weird design. Yeah, but but WFL had the only double strainer snare drum But the tricky thing with those is that they offered um Two different versions of the strainer, which I I for this day I just honestly to have no idea why they did this But the whole patterns are different for each one So there's a right half a left half and then they came in nickel or chrome And so you know trying to replace those or find them Is next to impossible and then the later version like the one that was came out maybe a couple of years later With the different hole pattern the tips look thicker like like a pair oars on a boat And they tend to break and so you always find them with the tip broken off and it's like You know, good luck finding those you know, it's just impossible Yeah, so I have no idea why they you know, because the original version they had was awesome It worked great So it didn't make any sense to me why they would switch to a different design with a completely different hole pattern I Yeah cost seems to always be a factor and it's it's true And it's the other odd thing I've discovered too is like when I first found one like this I just thought maybe they made them for a left-handed drummer because you'll look at them Straight on and then some of them will have the strainers to the left side of the badge And some will have them on the right side of the badge and when I found my first one with them to the left side of the badge I was like, oh, maybe they made them for a left-hander or what but now I've got like I've seen probably like half a dozen of them in that position. I'm like, okay It's just like I don't I don't know why it keeps it interesting for collecting, you know It's it's just But one thing I've come to with a common theme with uh, wfl is that they Yes, you said they didn't have any money and they just did whatever they could to make stuff work And they just basically said, okay, April 1st is coming. That's another year in business Let's you know, how many more years can we keep this going and and it just grew and it got bigger and better You know, but they just literally lived Hand to mouth basically in those very early days and well, you you're like reading my mind because I was going to say so I mean How was business doing like financially and all that stuff? I mean, obviously you got drums going out, but like I mean were they doing okay So the first year they started they actually got an order from a marching band for some marching drums which really kind of helped them out And then things got like kind of bleak and that very first year of business at christmas They basically Told the employees that they got to close or they had to close up shop and you know, you if you could find work Do so, but if you come back after christmas We'll see what's going on and they basically they just limped along until they got through the next year And then and william f. Ludwig the second it basically was like, you know Never again never not going to let this happen again And he had basically was going to college and he quit schooling and everything to work for the company and so he started out as like an advertising manager and So basically it was his job to go out on the road and and try and you know Get dorsers and he would go around chicago and go to different gigs and try to get people to try the products So, you know, it's a much different world obviously not unlike um You know the internet, you know nowadays where people just put stuff out there I mean he had to literally go out and pound the sand It's actually kind of not to get off topic But uh the twin strainer I was telling you about for $55 I saw with him if Ludwig the second in a clinic do his history of percussion and it was around 1990 1997 and I brought the drum with me and he looked at it and I told him that I could you know I knew the drum came from brain tree masks because there was some info with it in the auction and all that And he said that back around 1937 he literally like one of his you know outings loaded up a station wagon and his father headed him East and he basically drove out to you know the the new england area or in all that direction with a Station wagon full of drums and he would have to haul them into these music stores And some of them were on like the second floor and you know He would haul them up there just to try and see if the music store would be interested in carrying the wfl line And and he was like that snare drum you have probably came out on one of my trips out here So yeah, I thought was really cool. So oh, that's that's the that's just the coolest kind of history Is that specific and especially with the the Ludwig? You know family tree and right so just to kind of clarify so everyone knows so Wfl One like william f Ludwig. Yes the founder of wfl drums as we all can as we all know But like you said 19 and it's on the Ludwig website, which I'm looking at 1938 Is kind of when you said that too when when Be two The chief joined and did exactly what you were just saying with I mean, I think he he joined somewhere in the You know, I'm not sure exactly when he quit college But it was probably within that first year or so that he you know joined or at least because I think he had always Kind of done something from day one, but he was still going to school and at some point He just realized, you know, my grades aren't very good and and you know and the business needs help and and so I think he just finally made the full-on decision to you know And then he was saying at some point he was making like, you know, that's like $10 a week or something You know like working for the company as an advertising manager and he was living at home and yeah and so I think they would they just put themselves into it all the time and they and so William F Ludwig the second had a lot of schooling as well as far as precaution and all that So he started coming up with like Books and in some of the other, you know doing the ad copy for downbeat magazine things like that and um Like I have actually have a book about swing drumming that was put out by William F Ludwig the second It's got some great pictures of him in there for when he was like, you know, probably in his 20s and stuff and um But you'd have to remember like at the time when that swing drumming was coming out That'd be like today like somebody's saying, you know, um Like it's probably like the foo fighters of the day or or whatever, you know, think of anything that's popular now And like that that was, you know, all those big acts were the the rage of the day and so William F Ludwig one was probably a little old for that He probably came from more of a symphonic background at a You know a very uh, classically trained background Whereas in William F Ludwig the second was, you know, had a lot of that as well because growing up But I think he was also very attuned to the jazz and all that stuff that it was fairly new So he was a perfect person to go out and be an ambassador for trying to bring in new people Yeah, awesome door to door, you know, it's just totally different. Um All right, so then uh push forward there because I guess, you know, we're we're nearing a new decade Which turns out to be kind of a problematic time, but um, so what happens then? Well, so they you know, they they slowly were gaining some some successes here and there and um Uh and things, you know business would just like whatever they felt like all of a sudden You know everything's bleak and then somebody would send the water and it was just like at the 11th hour Or somebody would order a bunch of stuff and then they would be like, okay You know we're in business again, you know, and they would just they would just grow and build from there And uh, one of the challenges I know William F Ludwig the second phase is he would go into these music stores And everywhere he went there was a cardboard cut out of Jean Krupa They need to constantly have to battle with that and you know and fight the slinger lens and all that stuff Yeah, um, and then you know they uh, but they just plugged along and did their thing the other thing that's really weird and um I don't quite understand this they had a couple of lug designs They just never made it to a catalog or anything like that and um those are again questions I'd love to ask like what was this for but there's just a couple of weird Things that just show up Like in that swing book I was talking about with William F Ludwig the second Like he's playing a full set of drums with lungs on it that have they're never in a catalog Hmm. That's interesting. It's just bizarre And from what I've heard in other episodes it would typically be I mean you would know but like prototypes that They made some that just they didn't make enough to put in the catalog or they just tried it and then just released it And it took it took a year, but they didn't put a catalog out for a year So there was a whole year that went by, you know They're making this stuff until they had a catalog But the catalog certainly helped because they could mail those out and get people interested and and I think you know In their ad stuff too for like downbeat and stuff They would be like saying things like you know, this is the real Ludwig, you know Make sure you don't you know make sure you buy this product because this is the family and this is the real stuff Whereas in con would probably say, you know Ludwig and Ludwig drums or the real Ludwig, you know It's like they sort of battle back and forth with each other. Yeah, because that's that's marketing. That's brandy I mean, and of course you're gonna do that. I mean, it's his family. He's got to get a dig in here and there, you know to And I've heard and I I've heard that stores back in those days When carry multiple brands like a guitar center has, you know, all these different drums in there like usually like You know so-and-so's music store carried, you know Gresh drums or so-and-so carried Slingerland drums and so it was you know always a battle to try and get your product to be the feature You know the one product in that music store. Yeah, so they were always like beating each other out to try and do that Yeah, drums are big and they take up a lot of space And you can't have 30 drum sets in like a 20 by 20 room or something, you know, I'm sure you can we can squeeze Drums in but in a sales situation. Yeah, that's interesting So WFL, you know, they were they were moving along with sales and things like that and they were getting more into the school market things and um, but then Like right out of the blue that it brings us to around, you know, 1941 ish and um, you know, they had some cool finishes They were offering like you kind of see it around my shoulder there But it's a marble finished zephyr lug sat behind me. That's um, you know, it's a very unique finish They called it deluxe marble, but um, but in of course in december of 1941 when we hit, you know World war two started and it just brought everything down to, you know A halt because I want to say that by the next, you know, april of 42 is when the the metals restriction started to happen And so of course, you know, and just as wfl was feeling like okay, we're starting to get a footing here They basically got slammed with the whole, you know Metals restriction and the war and all that but I mean, it's kind of like, you know If you look at it like the pandemic where somebody might complain and say, you know, this is really kind of, you know Hampering my ability to do this, but it's not just you it's everybody So the war did the same thing to slingerland and in fraction All these other companies got the same problem So they all had to kind of scramble to see if they could come up with Something in the design or work about so that they could still produce drums somehow Do you know I've I've I've I've never actually thought about this um, the wooden era wartime drums all More or less all the brands kind of have a similar I mean, what what else could you do that's different, you know, really a wooden lug How how different could it look they obviously have their like minute differences But do you know who the first company who was like Let's make wooden lugs Let's make I mean rolling bomber gets a lot of the like name recognition But like, you know, I mean someone had to be first to create this I'm not exactly sure who is first and that's a very good question. And of course, uh, I can't you know, I know you've talked to Uh, Joe mechler. I'm sure you've talked to him and I mean, he's though He's the definitely the guy when it comes to the wartime stuff. Sure. Sure. Um And I would you know, it's just hard to find it. I mean, I mean, I uh, I've had some of it But I haven't seen a ton of it and a lot of it's usually doesn't you know, it's been pretty well Beed up over the years. So he's got some, you know, some of the nicest examples probably in the world of that stuff Absolutely But the thing the thing with wfl Which was I think may have been another Cecil's group designer of them up mistaken But they used an internal tensioning design Which is basically what you know, later on the lady knob tension lady and lovely knob tension But they tried to make a drum that basically used like a spring and or or it had like a A mechanism inside and when you turn the sides of the drum It would push against the head causing tension And being it was really not the greatest design Especially when you're talking about calf heads and all that and and then after a while when you over tension them They you know, they just the design would break and and so wfl eventually Came up with a lug design similar to the rolling bombers, you know Where I just had an insert in the lug and then you would you know, use a tension rod like a normal Drum, but their early offerings were you know, they were called, you know the wartime Um victorious drums. Okay. So they were victorious was there like, you know, patriotic type name Yeah, and they were they were there big, you know, they were all all these companies were trying to sort of Like wfl and slingerling were always trying to one-up each other and Yeah mess with each other somewhere down the line and Yeah, which that that's neat there too because like that that feud did not stop when it went to wfl Yeah, the hatred continued Yeah, but slingerling or whatever in the way of it flood with the second always Battled it out They would always race to the stockyards to get the calf heads first and pick the best ones because I guess, you know some of the The the calf heads from the you know, the real fresh the younger ones or whatever were better for the underside snare heads and Sure, it's like so they were always trying to fight, you know, like who can get up earlier and drive across town faster and You know, yeah, that's awesome. I'd love that is yeah Yeah, it's pretty neat those guys you need some you need an arch enemy if you're in business You know to keep to keep pushing you forward to make more Innovations, you know, yeah, so they they basically that's what's going on in the war and so they had you know And fortunately for them they got some Even because military, you know Was a lot of the military uses of drums They got a lot of military contracts for stuff where they would have these big orders of Of marching drums with us logos on them. I have a you know, I have a marching drum here That's got the us logo on it You know and I've seen a picture like with that same drum and there's probably like, you know 300 of them in the picture, you know, and so they made a lot of them But even still it the business wasn't, you know, great because it was tough without having all the metal and all that And I believe they went down to a skeleton crew and and really just, you know, the shop wasn't Crank in the way they were even though, you know, they were still selling stuff Yeah, yeah, and people probably weren't buying as much because it kind of puts things into perspective and a lot of young Guys who would be buying drums were probably over and In the war, you know, yeah The thing that I think that I find interesting like after the war Like I think people just when they see a zephyr log or anything like that They just automatically gravitate and say this is pretty war drum But what they don't realize is that when uh, William F. Ludwig invented the classic log Like they didn't just like end the war and all of a sudden like, okay, let's throw classic lugs on these like they didn't There wasn't a classic log So basically when the war ended they just they had to ramp up regular metal production again, which meant Okay, we're gonna start putting zephyr's back on and and some of the You know the P90 or whatever the spring loaded lugs and and and put those designs back out again But it was really probably no more than a year or maybe even less than a year Where I just think both William F. Ludwig and William F. Ludwig the second were just like this design is just It's all we just can't you know, it's just not not a good design We got to figure something out and that's when they basically came up with The classic lug which you know appeared around I'd say 1947 ish and so So there are a lot of sets because they there's a famous picture that floats around The black and white picture of William F. Ludwig And William F. Ludwig the second where they're standing next to a pile of base rubs And they're holding a tom-tom and you look at that picture The toms have offset zephyr lugs and that should be probably from around 1946 And so for whatever reason they just they offset the single, you know The single each separate tension zephyr lugs So they have that kind of a weird look to them. Yeah, but it's cool I mean that's that offset thing which is you almost think of it as a modern Design, but it's really not. I mean it goes way back and that that picture is so cool. It's kind of uh I don't know you look at it now and you're like it's a father and son. There's so much like history to all of it It's really neat to see and I always find it funny too because I see the picture of William F. Ludwig He always always had a suit on and I could remember like my my dad's father my grandfather I didn't really know him that well because he passed away when I was like 16, but He always had a suit on and I think it was just like, you know, like nobody does that now, you know, like No, like that'd be like us sitting here doing this interview both wearing suits and ties And like maybe a hat or something. Yeah, like nobody wears a suit anymore And it's just like I got a picture of my grandfather somewhere He's planting a tree and he's gotta get a full suit on, you know, and it's like, okay Like what are you doing? Whatever they more style more stylish than we are today. I guess But William F. Ludwig always see him in his in a suit. I don't know if I've ever seen a picture of him without a suit on so So it's just you know, it's just the generation the way it was in that those days and so I find that interesting. The other thing that's interesting before I move out of the out of the pre-war WFL stuff real quick is that I've got some letterhead and That where maybe somebody got a catalog from and the stamp on it Actually is like a like the postal stamp is William F. Ludwig's head And I'm like, what the heck that's like a collector's dream is to have the William F. Ludwig head Stamp. I mean boy, that's pretty cool And it's and I actually have a uh Because they used to give away these Nard National Association of rudimental drummers And uh, the the national, you know, the champion or the guy whatever was james burns more And so he was like the rudimental champion for marching stuff And so when people completed, you know at the course or whatever they would get You know like a a little card and it was signed by james burn more and William F. Ludwig senior and I have one of those Cool, kind of cool. So it's got to go both of their autographs Yeah, that's the next level of collecting beyond just drums is like is memorabilia, which you're not alone I mean, and I think it's everyone. You know, it's awesome. But yeah, it's it's it's kind of yeah Definitely, it's a definitely its own thing. Yeah, but um to propel forward out though like um So one of the one of the things I think William F. Ludwig senior and uh, the second decided was like We need to get more endorsers and we need like a really big name And so I think the the trick for them was to say, you know, we we need to get buddy rich And so the trick was to talk to buddy rich who was a slingerling guy And I think buddy, you know, I mean, it's pretty known that he loved his slingerlings, but um, I think William F. Ludwig in They basically told him like, you know, if you come to WFL you'll be the guy Like if you stay at slingerling, you're always going to be behind gene krupa. Yeah Oh, and you know, there's no way they're ever going to like You know take gene. I mean he was on a catalog all the way up until you know He passed away, you know, they had him on the catalogs and he was you know He remained a loyal slingerling guy all of his years But you know, buddy, you know, was notoriously hopped around later on but um, But of course they you know, they enticed him and they they brought him along and they got WFL got him So the the 1948 catalog featuring all the new classic logs and all that had buddy rich on the cover So that'll do it. I mean that's that'll do it. Uh, if you I mean, if you're a branding person and you get buddy, I'm sure they probably had to pay to get buddy Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't I I'm I don't really understand the endorsement thing as well And I know you talked to like john de christopher and of course you will say that nobody, you know From the companies don't give away drums these days or or less. I don't know There's the stipulations with it and all that and My buddy rich was probably an exception where it was just like, you know what, you know, I'm gonna play a soup pan If they'll pay me enough money. I'll play on a, you know, a soup pan or something Yeah, exactly. I'm I'm pretty sure that um, I think tommy peoric he did an episode about buddy snares And I think he talked about a great guy. Yeah, tommy's awesome. And I'm I can't remember the details But like buddy was the one who kind of like, uh How do you put it like kind of tainted the waters a little bit of now money's being handed out to play drums? So Uh, whatever it's classic buddy. I mean, it's it but so how did it do? Did it really did it start to boost? Yeah, you know, he was uh widely, you know, considered the best drummer in the world and and uh And it definitely helped for sales and it definitely, you know, they were But I guess they the problem they had with him like over the years is that um, he would literally um before he met his wife He literally would like play these clubs or whatever and he would like leave with a drill or just like Whatever it was he would just leave and then he'd like literally call up with him If Ludwig II because William if Ludwig II really kind of had to deal with him and he'd be like, you know I need no set and he'd be like what what do you mean? You know the set and he was like just do it birdbrain like, you know He was that's what you call him like birdbrain And he would say just just do it, you know, and so it was frustrating But I think William if Ludwig Finally got second got to the point where he was just like, you know what? Let's make like two or three of these things up in advance And so when he calls now, we just have one ready to go because apparently buddy had special places He wanted the mouse drilled and this and that and and so But he was he was just leaving his like he would get done with a gig. Yeah. Goodbye. I'm leaving I'd love to find one of those It's being interesting to know what happened to that stuff and it's almost it'd be almost next to impossible Although, you know, if they if he really did have the mouse in special places It probably wouldn't be that too difficult to figure out to verify the yeah Yeah, and I don't who and I'm not sure like um Not to discredit William if Ludwig the second but sometimes, you know, he would Talk about some things that I've discovered that he was maybe a little off on Or, you know, I mean, you know a rich history and that's a lot of stuff to remember and this and that and so I wouldn't blame him one bit if he was No, think things become tall tails a little bit. Absolutely. Yeah, you know every club He went he'd leave a drum set where it might have maybe it happened a couple times or something Probably was more likely the case Because I don't I don't think it would you know, and there's there's ways you can tell like when you look at early Classic lug WFL drums like the very very early ones For some reason on a nine by 13. They used a mini classic lug Only for like a year and then like basically by the next year. They were using like a large classic lug And so they were using like large classic lugs on 12s and 13s. It was kind of bizarre and it wasn't in You know and then later on of course, you know, it went to using a small classic lug for a 12 And then everything above that was a getting a large one Where and so it's just just kind of weird stuff like that and then they didn't really have Like the early floor toms sat in a cradle and then they invented the spring loaded legs And then some of the bass drums didn't have like actual mounts on them And so they would use a um, you know, they would use a clamp on mount leg mount for the bass drum and then of course some of the um The tom holders were clip on to the hoop, you know before they invented the banana the rail and all that stuff It's uh Fun to look at it and see all the different iterations. I guess as a collector you see I'm sure you never uh run out of interesting things to see as you're finding these You know, and I and I see them all the time like I you know When I see something that I know is like I think I saw a picture of a WFL set once That I saved where it had classic lugs on it But the bottom lugs were offset like a zephyr log and I could just tell that like This is probably a whole lower from a zephyr log Drum that they you know outfitted with classic lugs and just the way it was all set up was all Completely like they would have been a zephyr lug set, but it had classic lugs So it had to have been probably like a super early, you know, classic lug set Yeah And I mean because it's just hard to know like, you know, like I don't think they all of a sudden one day Would just say okay, here's the stopping point for a zephyr log and here's the starting point for And I know like later they also and it just I didn't realize this until much later on in my collecting But they actually kept some of not the zephyr's Per se but the the spring loaded early, you know WFL lug they used them on marching just stuff all the way through the fifties So sometimes you'll come across a marching drum thinking. Oh, this is pre-war and it's not it's could you know It's probably like mid fifties or something. Yeah, I mean, but like you said, it's like world We have it. We're not going to get rid of it or we have even if we're making new new ones of it We have all this tooling like yeah, why not? So all right, we're we're we're entering close to we're close to the fifties, right things are We're sort of winding down in the in the In the in the world of in in this timeline of WFL, but I wanted to ask kind of while we're while we're talking here, so Ludwig and Ludwig was still in existence and creating drums under the name Or did it become leading Ludwig at this point during the war? I think uh, Ludwig and Ludwig and Lady were you know, Lady was making like a dreadnought And I forget what the Ludwig and Ludwig version was called But they were still doing their thing and I think after the war ended. I think at some point I don't know the exact date they just kind of said, you know, this is silly We're making you know, we're spending all this money to make two different drums And let's just make one and they combined the two names together where you get Lady and Ludwig And so that's you know, where you see that happening But it really was like I want to say up into the very early fifties and then I think con corporation all together was just like, you know what? I mean, we're just We're done and we're we're not going to make drums anymore. We're sick of this or we're going to concentrate more on other stuff and so they decided that they were going to sell the name and so that's when William F. Ludwig II was really he was the one that said, you know We need to get the name back because he was adamant that they wanted the name and I think Senior was just like, you know, I don't care whatever we're WFL drums now like who cares and it was really William F. Ludwig II I got a lot of respect for him the choices he made and you know, he was I think because you know The father lived through a depression and all that he was very cautionary as far as spending money and doing things and it was you know It's going to cost a lot of money to get the name back But William F. Ludwig II had a lot of foresight and saying, you know, we need to get our name back Like this is our name and we need to have it and so basically from what I understand I think senior went on a vacation to like Florida or something like that and while he was gone William F. Ludwig II went ahead and purchased, you know, the Ludwig name back Which included a lot of the tools and the you know, the dyes and the tooling and all that stuff But conversely Bud Slingerland, you know went ahead and decided to purchase the the leading name Because they are their thought process at the time was if we have Slingerland in Lady Then we have more of a chance of boxing out Ludwig in a store Whereas in like one store will have Slingerland then we can put Lady in another one and And you know kind of like Kind of you know, yeah, it's probably a lifelong dream of theirs to screw each other over, you know Like he's they they sit up at night dreaming of ways that they can completely screw each other over I mean, that's just it's interesting to think of WFL One going the senior going like now I'm WFL now I don't care because like we have such hindsight now where we can look back and WFL If you look at the big Ludwig history, it almost feels like a little blip of like time, but it's not I mean, that's a relatively substantial amount of time That's 18 years that WFL existed, which that's a substantial amount of time So there's actually and I have it somewhere. I have to dig for it But there's actually a a clip at or something I've seen where I want to say it's 1954 where they officially announced that they bought their name back However, they as I said earlier when they didn't like to waste or use anything You really don't see uh the change occur until about 1950 58 maybe 57 with a transition batch So so there's a there's still a lot of years where they're using a WFL badge Even though they technically bought the name back Which it seems kind of weird to me that they used them for that long because the badges also changed So when you get after you know post war, there are some badges that are aluminum badges And they and usually by this point the badges say at the top They'll say will they'll say WFL drum company like co And then at the bottom, they'll have like 17 28 North Damon as the address And then you'll see some of them that are like um, as I said, they're aluminum looking badges But then they mostly, you know after about 1950 or so, they're all like brass badges. But um by 1955 56 maybe The badge all of a sudden changed. So it says WFL drums DR UMS at the top And then they'll, you know, put the address at the bottom or the or you know, Ludwig, it'll say Ludwig drum company at the bottom or something, you know And it's just kind of kind of a weird thing and also it's good to note that I think Around maybe either 55 or maybe 56 is when they first started date stamp drums So prior to that they were never date stamping drums and so um So that's kind of cool and sometimes the the dates are hard to read because uh, first of all, they're old And uh, they used a red ink stamp back in the you know, starting off And so the insides of those drums were like a dark african mahogany So when you put a red stamp ink, you know It's sometimes can be hard to read it if your eyes aren't really catching it And then they also would stamp ironically they would stamp the stamp on the inside of the shell Close to like if you're looking in where the badge is it was right next to the badge hole So later on like, you know, when you're looking at like 60s drums But most of the time you can look through the air hole and see the date And I don't know if like I mean obviously the stuff isn't food But I don't know if they were like trying to like keep track of like dates on some of them Just for like getting them out the door versus, you know, I don't know that's a good point No, that's a great point of like how long has this one been sitting here because otherwise like how do you I mean you got we're talking warehouses. We're talking. Yeah, that must have been such a relief To get the name back. I kind of like though that they weren't that after it happened They were like, yeah, we'll just run. We'll just we'll burn through all the wfl stuff Before having like a hard switch over Yeah Yeah, and I and I think william f. Ludwig senior was was pretty furious with with, you know The second for doing that but I mean, you know, obviously like later on he he probably much, you know Rightfully so discovered that he was really right about doing that Yeah, a couple years later with the whole 60s, you know, you know Beatles and all that Yeah, and I mean they could never have predicted that Do you know, I mean, you know, I you know, it's one of those things where it happened so long ago I feel like Money can be kind of a weird thing to like I'm not sure if it's released But like do people know what dub what the the Ludwigs paid to buy their name back Is that public record at all? It may be it actually may be in William F. Ludwig's book because he he talks about Like his book is way more like detailed than the stuff that I'm talking about like he talks about sales figures Things like that and things that I wouldn't you know necessarily memorize But um, but you know, he has like the quarterly figures It sounds like a lot of people in those days, too We're pretty good about keeping records like they just saved a lot of stuff record-wise Like I've heard from some people that I know that have like basically like the file contents of William F. Ludwig The seconds all of his stuff from his desk and his boxes and stuff That goes back to like patents and all things like that which I would have to look at Because it would certainly fill in some holes as to when something specifically came out Yeah, but it makes sense because it's like now we have our computer files completely full of stuff on hard drives I mean, it's like his His office where he has a filing cabinet. Of course, you would want to keep that stuff. Um, but well, um How would you wrap up kind of this this wfl? Nice, uh, like journey. I mean, it's really just a big detour for the family like Senior was angry At first But then it must have been like uh in the 60s. It had to just be like, okay, I get it I get why you did this. Well, and I think you know, exactly. I think um I think I just I can't give enough credit to William F. Ludwig II for his Just insight and just you know, I think he just really had a good head for For just knowing like how to move forwards and whereas and I think he was more willing to take chances where I think you know senior took well certainly took a lot of chances back in the day But he also got burned back in the day quite a bit where he was a lot less reluctant to Make an unnecessary move just for the sake of you know, taking that chance But I think uh, William F. Ludwig had certainly had a good pulse Finger on what was happening and I think he was able to really kind of see how to proceed and move forwards and And and he made some great choices because There's you know, I think they were People say that they know that they weren't using a Ludwig logo prior to the Beatles being on and selling them But that's really not true as you know, you there's there's copy ads of Joe Morello in the 50s playing, you know, his wfl drums that have a Ludwig logo on the on the head But I don't think it was common practice for them to regularly like just you know, put a logo on everything And of course there was no wfl logo like if you ever you know People have sort of created them over the years from maybe using as you say that art deco look logo And they'll make you know stickers to put on a bass drum But there never were sets floating around and of course the advent of the classic head. Yeah 56 57. Yeah. Yeah. So that changed some things of course as far as putting logos on things and stuff like that and Yeah, and uh, yeah, that's interesting. So so you're saying that there was never a wfl Like what will you expect now with like, you know, dw or yamaha these brands? And one thing I think is interesting on that that I want to throw in there is I was reading, uh Brooks tagler's gene krupa gear guide book and it was Talking about how gene it was the same story. You always heard about ringo about over his shoulder or over George's or paul or john their shoulder You'd see the Ludwig logo and everyone loved it and I think It was the similar story with slingerland about how way earlier than that They saw that this was always appearing, you know, gene's bass drum. Let's put a slingerland logo on it So kind of an interesting side thing with that feud that we always hear about it's like, uh, you know, maybe slingerland did it earlier with It's yeah, it's Certainly possible and it's just there's just a lot of things like that And uh, you would think that, you know, like I think later when buddy rich was on tv They maybe had like a Ludwig logo on his head or something like that But of course, you know, buddy rich is awesome His buddy rich is it was and he just didn't, you know, have the impact like the way, you know Beatles on enceleven and so of course, uh, I think it was just more of like when when Ludwig did it or wfl Did it for buddy rich and all that it was just more of a Standard like promotional thing whereas and I don't think they necessarily thought like we're going to sell a billion drum sets Because buddy rich is playing, you know on tv on like the merv riff and show or whatever it was And you know people are going to watch that and buy tons of Ludwig drums But it was just a way for them to sort of get the name out there Especially when you're looking at black and white tv, it's probably real hard to Pick out, you know, they didn't have hd, you know tv's and all that but then of course, uh Ringo's logo of course was put on there You know by by, you know, the the sign painter and in the quest of, you know Brian Epstein and the in the store order iver arbiter and it was just nothing that Ludwig had a hand in So when wringo went on tv, I think it was more or less like Wow, what is what is that? You know, like these guys were on tv and the logo was actually kind of big It wasn't even a Ludwig like it didn't come from the factory to sign a painter like Eddie Stokes Painted the thing larger than like an actual Ludwig logo. So it's like, you know, it showed up really well on tv So yeah, I think it was quite the shock to the factory and yeah And then the rest I mean truly you can say the rest is history because it really is I mean, that's where I just love that it's like wfl is just this like sliver Of just it's a specific era and and it's just so much it's just really neat and I think they're very unique drums that are so embedded in the history of the drum set like the Ludwig family But it's like a it's like a little like side history, you know, like that that that is not Kind of on the main, you know, it almost just gets folded into oh, yeah, that was the wfl era But there's a lot to it, you know Yeah, and so one of the other cool things so about the wfl era especially like in the 50s And stuff is and I have no idea how they did this but they would wrap literally the wrap into the shells So like, you know, you'd see drums where like there'd be blue sparkle on the outside And then red sparkle was on the flip side of the wrap and so you could see a little section of it peeking through all the way to the inside of the shell Or like a little red sparkle would poke out of there and and they also used like a glass glitter finish in the 50s When they switched, you know around now 1959 60 to a more like There was a little transition finish and then they went to a regular sparkle in the 60s But all those glass glitters look really cool, but they were really prone to fading So some of them like unfortunately like the gold and the greens. They just turned some big putrid looking, you know You know, the green sparkle looked absolutely gorgeous back in the day back in but it just she gets yellowed and looks It's pretty bad. That's a shame now Uh, as we wrap up, I just got to ask like collectibility wise Like if you find like let's say a 1937 Wfl kit and I mean this is a whole I'm sure this is a lifetime worth of studying basically this all this stuff But and just wfl in general like, you know one to ten Where do you put collectibility of these drums because they're not everywhere. They're not popping up all over the place. I mean Honestly as much as I pains me to say this I would probably put the collectibility around maybe like a five or a six only because depending on what the set is or Like my set in particular behind me is a single headed toms and it came from the factory that way and it just the The hardware is like really minimalistic and it doesn't really resemble As much of a um, I mean, there are certainly places you could play one But I feel like you know classic lug 50s drums are something more likely to be taken out on on everyday gig You could be in a punk band and probably bring out, you know a 1955 set of Wfl drums and it they'd work fine Yeah, whereas in I think bringing out a 1937 say, you know Bass drum sizes were a lot larger and it's just It just yeah the single tension I mean, it's not practical. That's that's a good point of like how practicality they're super cool And they just but they just don't really fit more or less I mean because when you look at a wfl drum from the 50s and stuff, they you know, they're very much resemble Like a 60s drum and look, you know, they still have the same, you know basic dimensions classic lugs And they're built like tanks and and they're just you know, they're a lot more User-friendly, I mean some some people might say the hardware is not that that great But you know, they I'd totally get out like on a regular basis I would get a 50s wfl set whereas and I probably would be a lot reluctant to bring out like a zephyr lug set Yeah, but it's possible. It certainly is possible And I mean if you look at it blows my mind that bunny carlos toward was cheat trick with a radio king set Like he literally had a full-on 1930s 40s radio king set And he used it in jord budakon, you know, and oh my god. Wow. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah Yeah, it's it's amazing, you know, so yeah kurt. This has been awesome I got to say you have a just you are a wealth of information about this stuff And I can tell that you're you're passionate about it and and find a lot of fun in collecting And hopefully we'll meet at one of the drum shows that would be excellent Yeah, which I'll be I'll be starting to attend soon as I'm as I emerge from this insanity of Small babies and small children. Anyway, so kurt has been kind enough he's going to stick around and He's going to join me for a bonus episode where we've we kind of talked about a little bit We're going to talk about some collecting stories of finding some of these ultra rare wfl drums But then also, uh, kurt is a fan and collector of canister thrones, which That's a cool topic right there. Um, so I'm excited to learn more about that So if you want to hear that bonus episode with kurt Um, go to drumhistorypodcast.com click the patreon link and there's all kinds of episodes there From previous guests and kurt will be there as well. So kurt as we wrap up man. I mean, this has just been awesome I'm so glad to have had you on here. Um, I think maybe you could come back in the future You know a lot of stuff. I'd love to have you back sometime. That would be great I really appreciate you having me on here. Thank you kurt. All right