 Thank you, David. Thank you for having me Let's see great moving up So in terms of scale I'll start with a familiar chart something I think we're perhaps numb to seeing this this kind of accelerating trajectory looking at the last hundred plus years of energy consumption and There are similar trajectories that we can find for global material extraction And another accelerating trajectory over that time period being population growth. These are all normalized to the most recent figures of 2010 from zero to a hundred percent in that time period so Growth is exciting in many ways It has costs it has limits obviously if we look at the ecological footprint in the last or since 61 to 2011 it it would appear to be somewhat flat. Of course, this is land area per capita a footprint equivalent But with a with a dramatically increasing population during that time period Of course, the biocopacity is dropping pretty significantly And we're familiar with with this overshoot that happened Somewhere in this time period as well as the this other interesting Fact or measurement, let's say has to do with the amount of remaining wilderness What what's considered wild lands wilderness in the world? Which is now at about a quarter of its original land area moving to the proportions of resource consumption I think we can see Pretty clearly the type of shift that happened with industrialization. And so normally we're used to seeing these parabolic types of trajectories related to your quantity here. We're looking at proportion obviously and We can see two very unequal phases of resource consumption between renewable Sources versus non-renewable obviously renewable this this phase goes back for millennia Where we were primarily using wood as a fuel source What's interesting is in the development rapid development as you can see and Shift towards non-renewable resources that we began to diversify So coal was clearly the what we might call the disruptive technology energy-wise compared with wood, but quickly our hunger continued to Be unsatisfied let's say and look at other sources of energy primarily fossil fuel based and We see we see some diversification also happening in materials So this is a more recent look the last few decades of materials. I think it's worth noting though that where In mid-century, we were we were sort of metal dominant and very interested in alloy technology little bit in polymers and Ceramics, etc. That now we can see with more and more advanced materials kind of evening of the playing field more diversification if you will of resource development Now looking forward this this is where things get pretty interesting. This is a projection obviously But there are a couple things to note here one is that this diversification is only predicted to increase and so Just remember we were primarily a wood based Society if you will for millennia shifted the fossil fuels, but now we have We're sort of looking everywhere and anywhere for the resources for the next for the future for Siebel future and Many of these are now Renewable so a couple of shifts here intensified diversification of sources But also a shift back towards renewable energy not necessarily just wood now, right? and So this this leads me to pose a question are we in the midst of a third phase based on these two Phenomenon and we we see something similar happening with materials as well and that can lead to some interesting results as Tom Gradle has pointed out as we Mind the periodic table We we can find ourselves in some interesting predicaments with Critical elements geopolitically insecure elements for example Do we really need to use and find Applications for every single element Rare earth elements, etc. This is a question That's not typically associated with the notion of embodied energy is is something like geopolitical and security but perhaps should be and Just thinking in terms of scale of embodiment also David mentioned this Earlier is that the average building over 50 years We have to think about the the amount of energy that goes into all of the adaptations and changes which is roughly three times the cost of the original building so from from one point of view, and I'm reiterating what David said the whole notion of embodied energy being defined as cradle to project opening day, let's say for for architecture is Is is severely limited and we think about Life-cycle and process And as Stuart Brand has reminded us thinking of the various layers That are constantly in flux in buildings that a building is always telling tearing itself apart so What does this mean for architecture? I'll share some Examples of projects that that I find to have some interesting approaches related to these various issues of Of an architecture which is looking to looking at more diverse resources looking at process more than final product So here's some questions Could architecture Began to engage not just embodiment disembodiment but questions of re-embodiment. This is already happening In projects like this which is celebrating to some extent the reuse of salvage building materials in new ways or adaptive reuse when I was a young student in architecture in early days greenfield sites in my experience were kind of the normal beginning to a project Brief, but I think increasingly we see based on the realities that adaptive reuse will actually become the norm these were some Brutalist towers that were reclad in Polycarbonate panels that slide That we won't just reuse or repurpose existing building materials, but remake them company like stone cycling that reconstitutes new forms of masonry out of pulverized demolished building materials That technology like 3d printing won't just produce prefabricated things but fabricated things on Site that we now are getting to the scale of Technology where we can actually print onsite using onsite materials Something like going off-grid is is quite well known now But it's interesting to follow the projects that showcase this technology especially with dramatic lighting effects but looking looking more deeply at off-grid capacity and Internal cradle-to-cradle operations such as this microbial home project looking at waste to food processes within buildings and Thinking about ecosystem services more deeply I find this project especially intriguing because of the way in which it uses architecture as a platform for ecosystem services To the extent we can we can consider vertical algae farming To be a kind of ecosystem service Generating biomass that's in harvested and that energy is used to fuel Or power the building or the extent to which we can think of architecture as an ecosystem I was just talking to one of our landscape architecture faculty members at Minnesota about the different viewpoints that we have for our projects Talked about how For a landscape architect your view is typically 50 years out that opening day on a project isn't nearly as meaningful as The day a few decades later once everything matures And the constant process that that's entailed and cultivating that landscape Whereas an architecture we have the unfortunate adage that Maybe not everyone believes but some believe that the building will never look as good as the day. It was photographed I think there's some reconciliation that can happen between these two views of our work and Not that all of our buildings will be grown from living trees like this project But I think a more process based Perspective is required in architecture today So if the second material epic is We could say defined by all these perspectives, right? We had unlimited resources We're not really thinking about anthropogenic effects and things are centralized buildings or products We really focus on first life energy uniformity greenfield sites virgin material resources, etc. I Think it's worth asking the question if our new paradigm is shaped by these things What is that? What does that suggest for architecture today and in the future? because in in The classroom today in the office today a lot of the conversations contain these types of points of view, right? That we have limited resources That our fingerprint on this planet is is measurable We're moving towards more of a distributed process based model where we focus on life cycle and The the the imperative to be even more inventive Has to do with the way that we can look at diverse diverse sources Use them adaptively and repurpose them creatively So thank you very much. I look forward to hearing the rest of the sessions so what I want to share with you today is my views on biology and particularly my interest in how you can use biology to create better products and better processes and Today, I'm going to be telling you a little about the work. We do it equivative which is using a living organism essentially to grow polymers And one of the reasons I'm interested in biology is because it allows you to add a serious amount of complexity to a material with relatively little energetic Cost and I think that's important because the more complexity you can add to materials the more functions You can get them to do and the more efficient they can be I Want to start by sharing a picture of my tractor with you today? This is a Fordson major and The reason I want to share this is because it has a heat engine in it and if you look at heat engines Over time they really demonstrate How adding complexity to materials can increase efficiency. So you start in the 1850 with a Steam engine you move through railroad engines you move into the Fordson power major, right? But if you look at a biological system like this cheetah You'll find out you actually have a higher power to weight ratio than any of those engines I showed you over the last hundred and fifty years of heat engine Development and that's because by a lot biology inherently produces complexity This cheetah was self-assembled molecule by molecule by the cells in its body and A cheetah actually has a power to weight ratio about double of a Ford Focus Now it's likely as we continue to improve on heat engine technology We're at the end of the S curve will probably get to cheetah level technology But you still have a system that's pretty elegant right in terms of its embodied energy It bootstrapped itself by eating smaller animals at the end of its life cycle. It's completely recyclable It actually becomes nutrients for the environment. It's based on and it has all these incredible Emergent properties because of the way it's built molecule by molecule So I'm really interested in not how do we copy biology in architecture, which is often in design is often referred to as my mimicry I'm very interested in how do you actually apply biology directly to our existing? products and processes to produce better things and I think it's one of the key enabling technologies along with actually Synthetic biology and GMO, so I'm I run an environmentally oriented company, but I'm pro GMO That's gonna allow us to sustain humanity on our planet for the coming centuries And so I'm gonna get a little technical here and show you yeast cells because The way we use yeast in biology today is actually pretty bad So the cheetah is beautiful right the cheetah has a function right? The way we use yeast today ignores the entire complexity the cell We essentially feed the sugar we collect ethanol right anyone ever brew beer at home anyone anyone do that Get a team audience. I guess I got one. All right, cool right, but That you do that you throw away the yeast right you throw away this beautiful cellular factory Right that that assembled this complex molecule and you collect the ethanol We do this when we turn corn into ethanol today as well for fuel, which is just totally crazy It's like that's the yeast drop-ins. It's like falling around the cheetah picking up the cheetah droppings and saying I'm really Optimizing the use of this cheetah Instead you should ask how can we turn this whole yeast cell into a material? How do we use the complexity of this living factory all this efficiency all this information that biology presents us to Create better products so at Ecavative we use a kind of filamentous yeast growing mycelium and The observation of the insight we've had an Ecavative is that this growing yeast which in nature essentially grows it It breaks down leaf matter. It breaks down wood matter Right and kind of recycles things in nature, but it also forms this tenacious polymer net network So we said well what if instead of trying to extract the polymer from mycelium? We just grew objects directly with mycelium and that insight has turned into saying well mycelium is really a resident It's like a programmable polymer So in our process We essentially combine mycelium which is this programmable polymer You can think of it as a yeast with a scaffolding material Which isn't sugar you know we target things like low-value ligno cellulosic waste streams That's like corn stover a wheat straw or or wood fiber and we mix them together It's a little like baking bread right we put them into a mold and then the complexity the organism starts figuring out What enzymes it needs to make right okay? I'm sitting next to a piece of wood fiber that means I need to break and make enzymes to break down the cellulose And I'm going to eat the cellulose I'm going to build another segment of my cell wall and as it does this it builds this polymer network So you can visualize this this is a time lapse of an actual part growing in our factory And you can see this is about four days accelerated how the material is actually transformed and The whole Complex becomes the final product in this case. It's a piece of packaging replacing some styrofoam packaging So instead of extracting something from the corn stover, right? Extracting something from the mercilium and then maybe using an extruder to put it back together The whole complex is being transformed and this is what biology does really well and By leveraging this both for disposable applications like packaging and in the built environment You can make materials with drastically better properties for the humans around them like lower emissions lower toxicity and drastically better economic efficiencies which mean they scale in our capitalist system We've created essentially three generations of this material now we've been working to commercialize them The first is this base composite you saw growing essentially a low density material We've used it for structural projects. It's home compostable It's sort of it's sort of meant to be a replacement for styrofoam and we're using it in that application the second thing we're working on is a Myco board which uses these same emergent properties where we grow a resin through a fibrous material but instead of Give letting that be its final form letting it be self-supporting We actually compress it under heat and pressure and take advantage of the chemistry So we're not anti chemistry you have sugars and other things have been synthesized if you press this under heat and pressure You get cross-linking so allows you to substitute for some of the nasties that are used in industry like urea from aldehyde You look at the cellular structure of mycelium Which is similar to yeast cell you basically have chitin and beta gluten blue cans which flow under heat and pressure So we've also used this to create beautiful objects And this is where I think design is really important to help pull some of these technologies into application So we helped create the gunlock saver chair about two years ago. We grew the chair back This was the first demonstration and it was one of the top ten green building products There's no formaldehyde emissions. It's got a low carbon footprint. It's got low embodied energy It's grown to shape and then it's set using the same presses that are an industry We've also grown and tested sip panels I think sip panels are a really beautiful form of construction even when they have styrofoam in them And when we grow a sip panel we're actually able to Glue ourselves to the sips through growth But what a lot of the stuff we do today is constrained by how we think about Buildings how we think about packaging today how we think about material goods So we have to create products that ultimately can be sold through the same distribution channels and Some of the things I'm most excited about though, or how do you use these? Biological processes to change the way we do things So one of my favorite projects I wanted to share here is that we actually grew a building in incubated And I actually I live off-grid at home, and I also grew a building and it works quite well This is something you really can't do because of building codes You know code code is very prescriptive So you're you're really funneled into certain ways of building right when we sell our insulation We dry it and we kill it and we get an ASTM tested to prove that it's dead But really our installation works better if it's sort of dehydrated and semi-alive That way if it gets wet it doesn't mold it reanimates and fights off the competitor, right? That's a better process But that's way outside the scope of how architects designers and especially the building inspector Expects materials to behave to make this Grown building though. We essentially took a structure this pine boards on the outside instead of putting studs down the walls We just filled it up with our growing material And you can work with this material. It looks sort of like wet sawdust, but it's inoculated with cells And you can fill it in these cavities and they actually glued the whole building together. We put this on a trailer Mostly for the building code reasons I mentioned That's what the car not a house sure you're familiar with the tiny house technology and how it relates to building code And we've taken it all over the place. We've subjected it to 80 mile winds by pulling it down the interstate to New York City And this was a big experiment, but it's worked out great. It's been outside of incubated for three years now It's a popular conference space in the summer and winter and these are the kind of innovations. I'm really excited about Just So, you know, I do eat my own dog food So this is our my solar shed And I did actually insulate it using our own material and that's worked out pretty well But I did use scraps from the office. So they weren't all consistent And I also I couldn't I couldn't come and present today without talking about some of the really cool projects Other folks have done David made this amazing structure, which is probably the largest micro It is the largest micro structure ever created 40 feet tall and used about 10,000 micro bricks And this is was such an amazing embodiment of what's possible using these sorts of materials And it was it was really cool and we're more ambitious than anything. We ever would have undertaken ourselves And I want to end with just sharing how this relates to industrial scale Because all this stuff is kind of cool, right sounds cool Looks cool, but if people don't use these products and processes It's it won't have the impact and so the other half of what we do at Ecovative is how do you insert biology? into existing industrial processes Such that you can actually upgrade capital assets that are already present because if you go out and say, okay We want to replace all the particle board plants in the United States with a healthier greener particle board here It's not going to happen. They've been there for 50 years. The capital assets are fully depreciated. No one's buying new capital So we're working at scale on making particle board by going into plants like this That basically combine wood fiber with your reformel to hide and really nasty glue gives off bad emissions And we're saying look we'll insert biology into the front of your plant Well instead of putting glue on your wood chips You'll put mycelium on your wood chips let it grow through your wood chips And you can use the same plant and equipment and these are the sorts of angles You have to take I think to really move the needle in terms of how we we make and produce things So, you know our vision is mycelium and some of these old captive assets And then I just I couldn't resist its Earth Day It's it's the morning. I wanted to put up some pictures some cute kids These are one of our scientists children Damon is actually in and just mentioned that if you're interested in this We actually provide what's called a grow it yourself version of this We're really interested in seeing what other people create using this platform And so, you know, it's it's Earth Day If you could think of a cool thing to make I highly recommend you get some of this material and come up with a cool product So grow it yourself. It's all I got. Thank you I'm happy to start because I've appreciated your work for for some time now and when I've when I've introduced a covative products and to students and other audiences in the past and especially architects And particularly when this was quite new, yeah, I used to ask architects or students Bound to be architects in practice what they would think about putting a fungus in their wall cavity Which I know it's not quite quite that but the whole but the whole notion of growing something Rather than kind of typical industrial process is always intrigued me and I'm I'm especially intrigued now By your grow grow your own building project because it I also wondered I Mean we have this really interesting heritage of sod building construction for example primarily in the in the Midwest and I was fascinated to it when I first learned about how sod buildings Work how they actually become stronger over time because you still have the root system of the of the grass that's so kind of growing through One sod module to the next and so I'm wondering if if in addition to kind of Resilient or regenerative capacity of Modules that are still alive if there's if there are other capacities too, maybe it's not just I mean I think that's fascinating right if the modules are Somewhat self-regenerative, but maybe maybe over time to actually change Yeah, I think that's I think that's the ultimate brand promise of biology is is the ability to have Living functions in bed in the products and I would say for us personally We're not there today, but that my dream would be to have a building with not just miscellaneous elation But other bio components that the change and adapt and I do think a component to that is gaining control over biological systems Everything I showed today was done with a native type organism, which is cool, right? It's non-gmo, but if we had even more control over that organism You could have your building synthesizing the the compounds it needs for What kind of facade you have that day, you know different facades for the summer in the winter, right? These are the things that that living organisms do that are that are so incredible and make them so versatile And so we're sort of on this curve of Substitution through bio complexity when it's dead, but I'm most interested I think the most potential for all biological innovations will come. How do you keep it alive? How do you make biological organisms into products or buildings, right? What I'm curious too if you could talk about some of your Run-ins with building code officials or you know some some of the or maybe working with traditional industries Yeah, there's been it's getting better. I would say definitely when we started with an insulation product And when we went and said we want to put fungus in your walls. That was that was not a good pitch So we evolve that and the the truth is you go through all your compliance testing and your code testing and You just have to figure out what that is and you meet spec and then people get get comfortable And that's totally rational. I mean you're building things most people are building them to last a long time Or they hope but it does mean you lose, you know You say if we're gonna kill this product at the end of its life because that way we know we'll have code compliance If you go through the ASTM mold test where you put something in a hundred percent humidity, you know It should grow mold right now if your anti mold strategy is to have the organism overgrow any mold That was in the chamber and seal it up. That's a fail Yeah, so that's that's kind of where you get I think code can be very restrictive and then you know Personally, I've living off-grid code. It's been very challenging because there's all sorts of regulations around how big your house should be You know, and so I would prefer to I think that Finding creative ways around those rules are important for innovations and actually what just in general I like the tiny house movement right There any questions from the Live, oh sure so Fantastic presentations both of you things the I think maybe in the context of understanding these broad energy issues right at this huge national scale, but then thinking of the context of shifting from non-living sort of but now Base materials to things that then have life cycles that actually embody the word life, right What does it mean when your material dies like this thing you're just talking about it's kind of maybe start to think right away Okay, so do you have to now design for when the culture dies because it gets attacked by a virus or something all of a sudden All these other ones you do fix the code problem. What is the future design challenge to really? Because maybe the mold wins right? How do you design for that part? That's a great question. I mean we have today we have buildings have huge self-support systems, right? They've got waste removal each generation heat removal electricity People who service the building and repair and I can imagine Biological support systems for system, you know for these sims as well With the benefit of you take care of that system you get something that potentially is self-repairing self-healing right Self-reactive to the environment, but I do think it opens up a whole other series of questions down that vein I mean, I think there's a tremendous opportunity This sounds like past tremendous opportunities for architecture. I mean this could easily run the Perhaps more predictable route of opening up new territory for biological consulting or environmental consulting on projects as a kind of ongoing Process and I think to the extent that architects want to be involved in that which I think they should be That's that's something that we should you know really look at any other questions. Yeah I'm curious to Think a little bit more about risk. I mean so Blaine you you brought up among other things this kind of idea that there are geopolitically insecure elements and I thought that was interesting because that's actually kind of non-biological more chemical Right about materials and you know what it's made of you know, and I think You know ebb and there's building codes all about risk I guess and you know, there's risk of mold There's risk of structural performance as you and I talked about before with our collaboration You know, and I think Michael Specter you are also Talking about risk in a way. I mean the the numerator denominator thing is really a question of risk so I'm curious if You guys or anyone has any Examples that you think are Kind of stories where risk was kind of properly considered Addressed and you know or arguments about risk that were somehow successful I mean and and maybe there are examples. I don't know these offhand but in the in the switch from like wood to You know fossil fuels that you talked about Blaine. I mean, I'm not sure if there are stories there about You know people arguing for the benefits of this new technology for burning things And maybe not properly understanding some of the risk But but I think I'm just interested if design could could start having risk as part of an intelligent discussion You know the way that we try to think we have intelligent discussions about Other other topics related to architecture, but are we properly discussing risks or are there good models for that or good examples of that? And that's a that's a great question I think I think we're already in a better time than we were a decade or two ago with regard to this question. I Mean I can just imagine in an architecture office Previously trying to suggest using This kind of my logical insulation in a building at a client meeting and just and just you know having management horrified and So I think the fact that it can become part of the conversation Is I think we should recognize that you know that that there's still a tremendous amount of risk and unknown Moving forward There's a lot of experimentation happening now But I think we should recognize the fact that the conversation is opened up and that the door is is open and that especially young architects and students have I Think a perspective that shape much more by asking questions Including those that pertain to risk that they might not have previously We were just talking about my first materials in methods class for example undergrad It was very I mean my perspective at that time was okay. How our buildings made. Let me just learn that And maybe looking at some innovative examples case studies, but but now there's there's I think the field is is pretty pretty open And it allows us to ask the informed questions about I mean do we do we really need To use the entire periodic table I mean life is based on relatively few elements used very wisely over and over in different combinations So but I think I don't know the full answer to your question, but I think that's Beginning I would just comment on you know, how we evaluate risk in general society is a really important topic and You heard some examples earlier about this and like human brains really bad at it Like we're so bad at it like handicapping risk and then making decisions around it and I would have two observations One I think we should become more risk tolerant in general. We're safer healthier live longer at less risk than we've ever been in all of time Whether it's transportation getting shot getting stabbed getting sick not having food not having shelter And yet people are more fearful than they've ever been about these things which which leads to regulation which Which leads to constraints and I think We are going to have a big shift in this this next epoch materials and One of the things that will help that shift occur is if we can somehow Increase the societal tolerance for risk and and part of that is cultural Part of that is a media narrative, right? You know, you only see bad things on the news every night, right? So you assume bad things are happening And part of that is really changing the regulatory process to allow experimentation whether it's in architecture and design Whether it's in the engineering of organisms whether it's in the construction of transportation devices and so I would say that really Teaching and even teaching like people that you don't understand risk. Well, isn't is an important part of that process And I also say on the elements that I think it is really look at lithium, right? That's a that's you know, the best technology we have for energy storage requires this kind of rare earth Mineral but if you look at a fat, right the fats are in your own body They've got the same energy days of density as diesel, right? Diesel's like the best thing to store energy on in the planet So there's a biological analog that's available if we could figure out how to make a rechargeable bio battery Like suddenly that that element isn't is important, but then there may be other trace elements you need for biology So it's always the balance is always shifting. Yeah, I mean, I think those are both really interesting answers and I just want to add one more thing that The the kind of technology of biology I think is interesting here and it you know, it's I think it's not a coincidence that You know in some ways all of the talks so far today have dealt with biology and some of the new potential in some way or another and You know, I didn't know about your new book Michael, but it seems fitting, you know that you're writing about that topic And some of my own thinking about risk is I mean one that maybe Something like climate change and the topic of embodied energy can can make us finally realize that like the default approach The do-nothing approach also has risks, right? I mean, so we need to do the calculus You know that the numerator and denominator, but also related to biology I've been thinking that just like you said Evan biology is so complex And that is a really, you know powerful and kind of mesmerizing possibility for us But it's also possible. I think that we would have to get familiar with Designing without fully understanding You know and designing with the kind of black box a so-called black box and could we get more familiar with that and more Comfortable with that it's its own kind of risk, but it's also just like a challenge to our way of thinking We may never know exactly what those cells are doing Inside, but if we can feed at the right inputs and get the desired output Maybe that's okay. Maybe that's a totally new approach to design in a way I think you must have to approach biology that way I mean that the smallest synthetic organism was just created right 500 and something genes and they still don't know I think 20% of them do you know and as an engineer works with biology drives kind of drives me bonkers But I think you're right like a design approach that says I don't fully understand the system and I accept it But if I if I if I put a and I get be out like with 90% repeatability is kind of like Gonna be a theme for a while and using biology as technology So I think these presentations were really unbelievably cool, but it seems to me that when you're Code Violations and in building inspect you should be thinking more in terms of institutional review boards. I think like they have I'm serious Which is something you do with biological experiments because when you build something that's alive There are as you say I mean you say it as a good thing and I think it's a good thing too But I think you'll find people on the other side complexity is pretty intense and it I mean this is I Think it would be very difficult for a traditional Approval matrix to figure out how to say this is a good thing to do for society. I Think that you're absolutely right the systems are not even analogous and I'm incompatible with doing something like this Yeah, I mean I want just one point to back to David's presentation is that we've been doing we've been managing a process like this for for you know before History existed which is cooking right? Food food management food processing and I think I think we can learn a lot from those types of methods and traditions and I mean obviously buildings are it's a whole other type of sphere, but I Think I think the questions have been asked and and people are starting to be interested And I think that I mean how we manage risk with food You know cooking processing distribution, etc. We don't always do a great job and they're equal I You know Disasters, etc. And so we but we may find that in buildings. There's there's more of that, but it's I think that's a risk That's worth taking Versus the kind of ultra safe look where ultra safety got us so to speak in the in built environments with sick-building syndrome right we created our own sort of Hermetic boxes for disease So I don't so I think you're right. I think the the the riskiest thing is not to do anything I That's that's a great question. I think part of the future of education has I mean you showed it showing kids doing the work I think going going to See your farm and facilities that I mean I think some kind of more immersive hands-on experience is really important We're Since you mentioned it. We're starting an interdisciplinary graduate group at the University of Minnesota with biologists As well as artists and we're starting to ask somebody's questions And We're very happy to to host David next week who's coming to be a speaker at that at a symposium called biologically motivated So we're not we're not really sure yet what that looks like, but we're trying to to create interdisciplinary Curricular pathways working directly with biologists and we and we're bringing them into the studio. So right now it's it's a little hard to measure the outcomes, but I think just just trying to Craft Trying to create a space for that conversation to happen is a good start for us And I would say practically you should just be as broadly knowledgeable as possible take as many courses possible and More specifically, I think we should be changing our education system to be teaching people how to think So often we teach different subjects which all have the same underlying rules. This is true in engineering This is true in biology and you just teach them as separate things And you give people all these facts and like some people just naturally derive the fact that the same sets of equations and rules Governing these different disciplines and they become like really good at moving things between disciplines And I think we could just teach people that up front and with the internet with the access to information like the importance of teaching Facts to people is really is really less critical in my opinion and I think more time Proth disciplinary bringing different disciplines together and really then just explaining like how to solve and think would be valuable two quick questions One when you have a Education in general It's a little scary Yeah, it's a little scary about you know, how you deal with that Because it becomes a very political issue is as we're seeing now particularly the second question is a little more specific Do you do you haven't seen? the the general trend from Prescriptive codes to more performance-based codes as being an optimistic thing particularly the IBC I Think I mean I immediately start to see the political question immediately start to think about the current political climate of course and To the extent that we can create More opportunity for the diff disenfranchised in terms of new modes of production and industrial or post-industrial Type of growth and we began to see some of the reward on the risk that we're taking. I mean that's obviously There's a kind of naive side to that and a positive side to that, but I think I think a lot of what we're seeing a Lot of the cynicism is based on or related to disenfranchisement and and feeling like there aren't opportunities So that would that's my first thought to respond to that, but you're right. It is it's very quite difficult to convince Certainly more conservative people when it comes to the built environment and how we do things I would on the code question. Let's say I think performance based code is definitely the way to go with targets and then Yeah, the political question is a really hard one because it gets to beliefs and you know people believe things and you should let them You know and my my personal philosophy around that is I'm I would hope that we can have a regulation around carbon and carbon emissions and I think at the same time it's the the duty of people who create things who the designers The inventors the technologists to simply create better technologies that will produce those outcomes as best as possible within the current system So philosophically, that's where I am on that point. I'd love to see everyone embrace that and have regulation Great. Well, thank you guys very much