 When you tell a story and you actually see members of the audience says you do when you've told a story Well with tears in their eyes. That's what you should get with a good story Hello intelligent beings of this marvelous planet Welcome to learn from the brands our podcast made with love for you from 42 courses.com Today, you'll hear about how to get over the fear of public speaking how to write a book and how to write incredible speeches Simon Lancaster is one of the world's top speech writers He first became a speech writer in the 1990s working with members of Tony Blair's cabinet today He writes speeches for the CEOs of some of the biggest companies in the world Simon is a TEDx speaker his most popular speech on YouTube having been seen over three and a half million times He is a visiting lecturer at Cambridge University He regularly appears on BBC and Sky News and writes guest columns for the Guardian and Total Politics He's the author of three best-selling books speech writing the expert guide Winning minds secrets from the language of leadership and you are not human how words kill all highly recommended I'm really excited to speak to him because I've been a longtime fan. So welcome Simon Lancaster. It's great to be here with you Brent, thank you so much for inviting me on wonderful wonderful really great to have you here So Simon for people that are not aware of you, can you explain like what do you get up to for your clients right now? What do I get up to for my clients? So I'm a speech writer So that's one of these classic jobs where you do do what it says on the tin actually I write speeches for them people have a funny idea about speech writers and what we do There's this Wonderful image of us which has perpetuated in programs like Yes, minister in the West Wing of this sinister people operating like puppeteers in the background It's not really like that at all. You know the basic rule of speech writing is when it goes Well, it's all because of the client because they're wonderful. I mean when it goes badly. It's definitely all my fault So what I do I work with them and use My knowledge experience To help them give the very best speech that they can give and so, you know Sometimes using techniques that I've pulled from ancient rhetoric or communications theory and sometimes just helping them with jokes or Stories, but really working very much one to one to help them be the best they can be And that's different for everyone that I work with, you know, sometimes So some of my clients are boring, you know, and they would concede that they're boring And so for them I just help them give the least boring speech that they can possibly Give and just maybe, you know, if they're dead boring just give them a little Story or a joke or a metaphor or something at the beginning of The speech just enough to hook the audience in and then touch back to it at the end and that can make it far less Of a murderous experience for the audience That's interesting, isn't it? If someone is Not the most charismatic person You can't write an Obama esque type speech for them Can you because it's like it doesn't fit their, you know, everyday personality that the people already the audience will already know So you have to Fit their speaker Absolutely, you'd make an idiot of them. I mean, and you do see it sometimes you do see Sometimes people giving speeches that they're so clearly uncomfortable with Sometimes it's just a little manifestation in their body language. You can see it's not their words or they're they're You know, reading out a joke and they don't know how to land The punchline it doesn't come naturally to them and that ruins the whole whole thing The whole thing about a speech is about forming a connection between the speaker And the audience and to do that the speaker needs to be being Open they look like they're being phony. They're putting on an act So growing up as a little boy in England, you know, people have like, oh, I want to be a policeman or a teacher Speech writer is not one of those things that really is in the in the consideration set is it's a how did you become a speech writer? What was the journey? the journey for me started when I was 11 years old actually and I remember being taught by my music teacher Bernie Newman at school and he taught me the basic one four five chords And from that moment on I actually wanted to be a songwriter I desperately wanted to be a songwriter all the time when I was at school I was writing songs and then when I left school my very first job Was playing piano in a restaurant just off Leicester square french restaurant called chef salon You know playing in a restaurant I'll I'll slip in some of my own tunes in the evening and they're going to discover me Give me a huge publishing contract or whatever as it was But that didn't happen funnily enough And the restaurant ended up closing down So I then needed to get a proper job basically and so In I'm fast forwarded in a few years. I wound up in the civil service And I then became a private secretary work in Frowland Johnson when he's the minister He was a guy I admired hugely. I still admire him hugely. He was someone who Who who changed my perspective completely on leadership and communication because he had left school when he was 15 He was orphaned his first job was stacking shelves in Tesco He then became a postman and yet he rose to become a leader He became leader first of the communication workers union and then he got very close to becoming leader Of the Labour Party. He could have done it. I swear if he'd have wanted it He didn't have the ruthless ambition Um And so then it was working for him and I watched him giving speeches he had humor empathy stories wonderful gift for sound bites and At the time I was in my mid 20s and I just watched him with all And I thought this is amazing and he was really he was a failed songwriter as well So he used to talk about this a lot and then I worked for him as his private secretary for about two years My next job after that was a full-time speechwriter when I was I don't know maybe 28 or something um And I've I've not looked back. It's been my it's been my only job ever since I couldn't do anything else now I couldn't do a real job But um, you spoke about uh rhetoric just a moment ago and uh, so you you jumped from job to job But you must have done some self learning and in all the books actually You speak about you know, Aristotle's Cicero and the Greeks and everything. So how did you pick that information up? Yeah, so I like Alan Johnson and like I guess, you know, the the The the great guy we were talking about earlier, but behind 42 courses, you know All of us had disastrous experiences of education actually or formal education So I ducked out of the education system when I was 16 years old when I say I ducked out. I was kicked out of school. I had a big boot up my ass. I was expelled when I was 16 years old from by by the teacher Who actually he'd say he said I I was going to fail all of my a levels I just needed to get out. I've still got all of the My old school report as well as the letters to my mum saying he's not working hard enough He's going to fail all of his a levels and I was like, I then laboured under this In fact, I left left school. I thought I swear I can I can pass these a levels So I took them and I did pass them both. I ended up getting a b Um in English and an e in music. I got an e in music So I did it without even having the set tapes Um, and it was only later when I became speechwriter at the department for education And I started understanding far more about who succeeds in education Who succeeds it in the education system and why they succeed? And I grew up in a very poor background I was brought up by a single mum on benefits in a council flat in london people like me We don't go to university. We just don't You know, and so it was really no surprise and it was and also as well when you come from a poor background like that Your teachers constantly underestimate your potential constantly under So when they threw me out and said you're not going to pass your a levels and then I went and passed them That's actually quite typical and it was only when I then Um was at the department for education when I would have been about 32 maybe I thought so dear I don't need to live with this anymore. I can change this. I'm in charge of my own life now And my wife had long been saying to me you should go to university You're easily bright enough to go to university And so I did I went I did a masters in mass comms Whilst I was working as a speechwriter at the department for education Um, I passed it and now I lecture at Cambridge University And so, you know, my my my message here There were many many people who I've met particularly in business, you know Not so much in the professions in the professions. Most people do come from posh homes But in business in particular There's a lot of people who had similar experiences to me and Alan Johnson where the system basically failed you And you did all of your education as an adult And so, you know, one of my my key messages that I'm always pushing out and this what I talked about in my TEDx talk is you can speak like a leader You know, and don't let anyone tell you that you can't don't let anyone put you in a little box And say you're going to fail all your a levels if they do just Tell them to rip off Um, it's interesting that you you speak about socioeconomic The results of socioeconomic status there and there's one thing that jumps out of me from From winning minds the language of leadership is you talk about that posh people use short sentences with like 12 words and people from other strata Do not can you expand on that a bit? Yeah, I mean it was just it was something Random that popped out of some research I did into senior politicians the language of senior politicians It was 2009 and I just Took all of the I think the top five Figures in each of the three main parties and I analyzed their use of rhetorical devices Their use of metaphor their average length of word and their average length of sentence And it was striking that all of your David Cameron's And nick leg George Osborne all people who went to expensive public schools eaten respectively eaten Westminster College and some some polls All of them spoke in very short sentences 12 word sentences and all those who came from poorer backgrounds Comprehensives people like Alan Johnson Gordon Brown William Hague. They all spoke in much longer sentences And I mean, I don't this was a matter of fact It was like the top five Speakers all went to public schools in terms of their short sentences And then at the other end all of the bottom five in terms of long sentences went to comprehensive So I can't say for sure why but my theory Is that you know, there's a little bit of people from poorer homes thinking I've got to show my vocabulary. I've got to show my knowledge I've got to show that I can think well, which often requires Long sentences, you know, good thought and long sentences do often go together Whereas for the other guys those who went to the better schools I think there's probably more of a motivation for them to speak plainly And to sound like, you know, the average Average man or woman on the street. So hence they're just cutting their sentences right down But a really interesting thing and of course when you travel, you know, and you go to countries like Well, India or or Africa Southeast Asia And they're given speeches in English there their sentences are You know, like really long And again, so the same kind of theory, you know Would fit with that but I can't say for sure but it's just it's a definite phenomenon that I've noticed as a speech And another super interesting Excerpt from the book is like that the the UK political parties Their use of metaphors are like links to their history And logos which is just astonishing if you can tell us about that as well Yeah, absolutely. So that's right in this same study what I found was that Conservatives are far more likely. I can't remember exactly I think it might be five times more likely to use nature and personification metaphors than Labour politicians and Labour politicians were much more likely to use war metaphors Than Tory politicians then then you had the Lib Dems in the middle who were far more journey metaphors and again, this was just something that came out of the research. I had commissioned this research With no kind of expectations for what would come out of there And when I saw this, I was like, oh my goodness. And then, you know, so nature personification the Tory logo was the tree um Lib Dems metaphor was the journey and you had the dove You know, so motion and journey within the dove and then Labour was was war And of course, you know, when the Labour Party were actively mimicking Tory language, they went The red flag revolution, but you this is kind of thing you have to do as a speech writer You need to analyze people's metaphors so that you can write in their style So in short, if you're writing for a Labour minister, you'll be talking about the the NHS is under attack And we've got a fight for our rights and we've got to defend them, you know From these savage cuts that have been inflicted. That's classic Labour war language Whereas the Tories are more likely to talk about the heart of our communities, the DNA of our communities and allowing people to blossom and flourish You know, far more of that kind of language not saying either one is better or worse, but just Recognizing this is how my client speaks and therefore that's the style that I've got to write for And do you think that it would be possible for members of let's say just as an example, Labour politicians Speaking in the metaphors of the Conservative Party in an effort to win votes or sound more Parliamentarian or more electable That would you think that would work to change the language that's suited to their audience or would that that would just fall flat Well, I mean the thing is is that it's not a there's not an iron wall between these The language of both parties. Do you know what I mean on both sides their tendencies? So the Tories tend to speak more like that, but they will still use war metaphors You know Boris during Covid has been using war metaphors all over the place constantly So there are exceptions to that but to to your precise question. Could the The parties actively seek to use other metaphors and achieve change No doubt at all. Yes, they could You know, and I mean that's something where I think they actually are being smarter now they are being smarter and So I think in the last couple of years I'd be quite curious to do the analysis to repeat the study I did now based on what the parties are doing because A couple of things I think There is now much more knowledge about metaphor now than there was when I did the study I did the study in 2009 Since then there's been so much research on metaphor and it's been far more high profile So I know the people at number 10 and people at the top of the Labour Party They know about the power of metaphor. They know about some of these studies So they will be actively changing the language in particular areas But I think there are areas like, you know Keir Starmer is very clearly using the liberal democrat language about journeys at the moment So he's talking about we're climbing a mountain and you know, he's saying actively we're on a journey So it's very much saying we're getting away from socialism revolution And we're back to some of that safer Centrist language, which is far more reassuring now Boris Johnson's He's a genius when it comes to metaphor, you know, and I say this as someone he's his politics So not my politics, but he's he's a genius when it comes to metaphor So his use of food metaphors around brexit Was a work of art So to start off with You had the whole thing about brexit Sounds a bit like breakfast How many times were you Bren in conversations with people when people would inverse Virtually say breakfast when they meant to say brexit You had that suggestion all the way along Boris straight away was talking about having our cake and eating it If you do, I do remember when he did that and so this then led And everyone was then talking about cake. Even his opponents were talking about bread cake Brexit then became cake to the extent that we now actually have in the English dictionary The words cake ism and cake is to talk about thinking, you know, you can have everything and a negotiation on Europe So he made brexit food. It speaks to our instinctive brain It says be hungry be greed greedy, you know, come this way come this way We're giving you food and then during the election campaign. We had all of the talk about oven ready deals And through the whole election campaign pretty much every day of the election campaign Boris was pictured with food. He went either to A baker's a patisserie went to a crisp factory. He delivered food to people's houses He was shown putting a pie in an oven and all the time talking about our oven ready deal, you know And so this is really powerful Subliminal communication if you said to people and I do say to people what was Boris's metaphor on on food They wouldn't have a have a clue that sorry. What was his metaphor on brexit? They wouldn't have a clue most of the time. They wouldn't even be able to answer the question But as soon as you say you remember the oven ready deal you remember have our cake and eat it these ideas were firmly Firmly landed and indeed one of my one of my gurus professor Jonathan Chartres black He's a main man on metaphor probably in the whole of europe And he's a university of west of england and he did a count of all the articles about brexits that mentioned cake 1283 articles The two-year periods Mentioned cake and so all now for us. This is like linking together. You have brexit boring trade negotiation You have cake yum yum yum. You keep making the connection together This is like the biggest national hypnosis program we've ever seen You know, I mean it makes paul mckenna's stuff look lightweight You know here you've got the prime minister and the whole of the national media Saying brexit is it is a slice cake or brexit is a pie going in the oven, you know And it makes us hungry then for that particular outcome Yeah, and hunger is a you know a very um, it's a good emotion Everyone can feel it can't they but do you think it's in do you think that's intuitive from boris? Or is it because because when he was the the european correspondent for the daily telegraph He was writing about, you know, they're going to stop us having our shaped bananas that we like They're going to stop us having the prawn cocktail crisps You know, this is the most british thing ever So do you think it's intuitive and he went from that or is it or was it, you know, it's thought out and this is the It's really thought out. I've known i've known Five or six people who have written for boris over the years Nothing he says is by accident. It's all deliberate the man is a writer He's a writer before anything else with an incredible gift The language and he thinks very carefully and you can see sometimes when he's being interviewed That he pauses and he's really he's struggling to find the right phrase. He's a perfectionist We're with language and so i'm absolutely convinced that he's deliberate It's deliberate and that stuff. I mean on bendy bananas and on kippers and prawn cocktail crisps I mean, you know, it was genius. He's no one for years brand. No one gave a shit about the european union I remember going to weekly meetings at Downing streets about european communication specifically about european communications We used to get together. It was monday afternoon and we'd go through the grid We'd talk about messages and we'd look at the recent polls Now the problem year after year was no one gave a shit about europe While the prime minister was trying to convince people of the benefits Of of of europe and it was boris who got people caring by giving us it by speaking to our stomachs Genius i'm really sorry having started brand by talking about long sentences and people who use long sentences I'm conscious now that some of my sentences are running into like the thousands of of words Well, I i'm delighted that you are speaking and i'm not one of those podcasters who is going to talk all over I want to let you hear what you've got to say now. I'm just going back to You know politicians and the possibility of changing their language I just wanted to touch on something that was really really emotional in in the book About changing the language for your daughter's insulin injection And I think that's really massively important for parents around around the world actually To hear this because it's really really important. Can you can you expand on what you did there with your with your daughter? Yeah, so my my eldest daughter lotty. She's 12 now. She was diagnosed with type on diabetes when she was four years old and we we went to the hospital and Received the diagnosis. We we knew what it what it was that she had because my wife is a type on diabetic as well. So as soon as She was exhibiting the symptoms like she was very very thirsty. She kept needing to go to the loo. We were like Oh god, you know, we knew what it was We went to the hospital and they checked her sugars and we could see that Her sugars were through the roof which basically meant she was diabetic And they then explained into my daughter. So my daughter's four years old. So she's she's you know communicative and receptive and the nurses and doctors we were talking to her and that they they were talking about About how she needed to have a jab and a shot of insulin You know in the language of jabs And and shots is obviously the this kind of war Imagery which is prevalence in in medicine. I was featured with the department for health And I've written a lot about health and everyone talks about fighting disease combat in disease now Of course, we do get it in covet. We're battling covet and a key weapon is The vaccine and This is it it does come instinctively and intuitively this kind of language Particularly to people who have been trained people who have been to medical school We all understand you fight disease you battle disease But of course to someone who's just four years old and it's just being introduced to this whole idea It's not very good and they gave her I I remember they gave her a magazine Which was prepared by the american medical association called what's up with ella That had a little cartoon to explain to children what diabetes is And it showed that when you eat anything with sugar or carbohydrate in you have these nasty little green monsters In your bloodstream aliens who are attacking you and who are threatening to attack your kidneys and all of your Vital organs So what you need to do is then inject the insulin and this is a superhero goes in with guns to shoot down the little green monsters Now for someone who's not got diabetes like I I didn't see in this cartoon was like that's a really good explanation Of what diabetes is actually and what you have to do your responsibility To to to treat it um However, of course for a four year old child to tell them they've got little green aliens Like crawling around their bloodstream and you then need to shoot it Inject yourself with shoulders soldiers shoot it down just like completely wrong So we were like we're not going to use this sort of language. We're not going to use this sort of language So instead we still to this day. I mean I wrote that book I think in 2013 2014 and I I wrote it in the book about how we calls Her bag db and it was and it became it's a person You know that um goes everywhere with her and we still call it db to this day She'll still court. She'll still have a db For the rest of her life. I have no doubt whatsoever. So we changed the language changed the way that it felt So it was no longer war imagery that instead like this is what keeps you in charge You know and puts you in control. So that's the kind of way that metaphors can Be changed you change the metaphor. It's key to changing people's the way people think and see the world and therefore of course how they behave Really important stuff. Yeah um another piece that jumped up from the book for me was uh about leaders because it's I mean The whole book is about the language of leadership, of course, but actually I think it's it's very important for people Around the world who are interested in people If you've got a job and a manager or you've ever listened to what a politician has to say you should read this book Anyway, but in the book you describe that there's there's almost like a template for Leaders and they must be strong since they're and sexy Right, and so I wanted to think I wanted to ask you how how many of those Characteristics do you think donald trump has or basically the question is do you think that trump is sexy? Well, I mean when I say sexy I mean the trouble is with me because i'm a bloody speech writer everything has to be in the world of three And everything has to be with him so health hence the strong sin fair and and sexy I mean the the thing is is that he's um here he's Let me just I before Answering the question directly. Let me just go back a little bit. You think back to the historic role of leaders through The course of history, you know You become leader of a tribe or a group of people By showing that you can look after that tribe that group and ensure their continuous Their continuance thereafter, and so that's kind of my starting point, you know that we're still primarily Instinctive creatures despite all of our training all of our education when we're looking for leaders It's very very instinctive Very instinctive the way that we do it And of course one of the ways that you ensure the continuance of the tribe or the group Is is through mating You know And I don't think anyone can doubt that you know, donald trump Is is very active or has been very active through the course of his life in that area And so he he does he ticks he ticks that kind of box But I think that's it is something which which goes on just at an instinctive level and people will deny it people will say I vote, you know when I'm deciding who to vote for I do it based on their policies and it's really really rational And it's a load of it's a load of hogwash. It really is. I mean, there's this wonderful guy What's his name alexander toddle off? I want to say At princeton university who did this famous brilliant study About 15 years ago where he showed people pictures of politicians And he asked them to say who they thought was the more competent Of the two pictures that he was showing them And I think it was with 70 accuracy. They were able to predict who'd gone on to win that election Based on nothing more than a quick first impression of someone's face That's how instinctive these kind of judgments are and his study has now been replicated All around the world, you know in about 20 countries including in the uk So it was a face was it because uh, also I've read that, um, if The size the height That of the president talking about america for a moment that since something like 18 whatever The tallest candidate has won Every time apart from two instances It's incredible. Yeah, I think that might be right and and another one is about it's ever since the introduction of televised debates every single one Bar one. I think it's been the one with the deeper voice. Oh, yeah. Yeah Is that is that right as well? So yeah, I mean, it's really um, it's quite disturbing actually once you look into Some of this stuff you realize Thoughts are it doesn't matter what the speech writer wrote. It's whether they've got a deep voice Exactly just put him on stilts and make him smile and you know, we'll be fine. Forget about the speech Now you spoke about the magic of threes and you know Lots of people know this they probably don't realize it when it's happening But you know, you hear about the marzadeh work should work rest and play and veni vidivici and all this stuff um, and that the power of rhymes, uh Does it does it is it only in western society? Or does it go across cultures because you work with CEOs in in asia and Africa and does it work across cultures as well this rhyming? Totally. Yeah. So there's a wonderful study That was done on the phrase, you know red sky at night shepherds delight. Yeah And the study that was done on that showed that I think there's a variation on that rhyme In about 70 or 80 different languages We all learn things. You know, we all have these kind of aphorisms That are rhyming and it's just it suggests a stronger connection Between the ideas. It just creates the illusion. This is right the thing about the rule of three You know, my theory on this is that our thoughts and our body language are fundamentally interconnected And so hence, I think the kind of, you know, when we say on the one hand this on the other we do that very naturally In conversation. We think we're weighing Uh subjects or ideas up and so for people to then say something which sounds well thought through you do a rhetorical Contrast so ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country And I think that the rule of three kind of builds on that so you have this idea of doom, doom To doom, you know So it's like on the one hand this or given point a given point b we can conclude point c You know, so it's that's that's my theory to it, but different people have other theories But what we can say for certain is that putting it in a three Makes it more credible than it come in in a four it works. We don't know why Is it known where it comes from? Is it the greeks or maybe christianity the father the holy spirit and the holy ghost? Is it something to do with that? Is there an origin? I I think I think the origin is that embodiment and so it's actually it's it's kind of hardwired in our brain Our comprehension of the world is seen through the we conceptualize So it kind of comes from that and then in actual fact with religion religion uses rhetoric all All over the place, you know all the testament new testament. I mean the use of rhetorical devices In in both not, you know rule of three like you say father son holy ghost, but also the rhetorical Contrast wonderful frances of Assisi You know where there is discord may we bring harmony as famously quoted by Margaret Thatcher so I I think it's all about embodied Language actually that and embodied cognition. That's what it dates back to which would explain why it works in All sorts of different cultures across the world because there's something about the way our brains programs to think through our bodies okay, um I'm just wondering like with rhyming because you in in the book you explain about the the power of rhyme and it's very innate and I'm wondering if like the like the world domination of rap and hip-hop if it's because the high frequency the The occurrence of the rhymes is much quicker than in let's say the Beatles songs I wonder if it's got anything to do with that that, you know, the rhyme is just so instinctive that people just Easily get into that energy or something Yeah, yeah, I well, I mean There's a few things going on. I think first you have the kind of the connection with What you've heard as a kid when you're taught things as children we're often taught things through rhymes So you have that but then also as well you have the satisfaction. I think of recognizing Oh, we've got a rap song and There's a pattern emerging here How long can they keep how long can the rapper keep this pattern going for because of course like you say the Beatles You know, um, it was they were doing well In their early songs their rhymes were kind of like you do True through and you know really basic whereas you listen to more up-to-date Rappers and I mean, it's incredible. They'll have like kind of seven or eight Rhymes in a in a go and sometimes their words you barely even know yourself, you know, higher complexity of words as well much higher complexity so Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know the Beatles language is probably like four-year-old or five-year-olds You know, whereas yeah, you you you you look to like your dizzy rascals or your m&ms or or whatever and it's probably much more like, I don't know You know 13 years old something it's something like that. It's not quite college level Okay, so look you you've written, uh, let me let me show you the Let me show everyone the the books because it's always good to show the digital versions as well There's uh, you're not human how words kill and and the audiobook of Winnie Minds I mean, I wanted to speak to you about this because The the narrator Is fantastic. I consume An enormous amount of audiobooks and it's glimmer creedy who I've never experienced before Did you did you choose him or what happens in the process? No, I I the publisher chose him it was all I was um, they they said We're gonna do an audiobook Um, and I said oh brilliant, you know, I'd love to do that and and they just replied saying yeah We've got someone lined up and I was like no I could do it and they were like no, we've got someone lined up and I was Okay It was like I didn't know they were saying something about my my voice or something like that Well, I shouldn't be so sensitive. I shouldn't be so sensitive, but glimmer creedy He's got the most amazing voice and he did like all of uh, ben elton's Books I think and he's got yeah, he's got a wonderful tone. It's a bit weird though. I've not listened to the whole Thing you don't listen, you know, once you've written a book the last thing you want to do is look Again to be honest with you Because you find you're like, oh god, I could have written that better. It just bugs you um But it was so weird listening to him do it because you'll remember the first paragraph the first paragraph describes me and my wife Going to see a concert in Hyde Park where a speech is given by Boris Johnson And that's how it starts and so it starts off with this wonderful voice going It was a hot summer stay and me and my wife lucy And it was like It's another man talking about my wife No, but he is really really good because he he gives the emphasis he gives the emotion and not all narrators do that I mean normally when it's not the author who's narrating I always think like because I feel there's something missing But he really really adds to it. So highly recommended You know, if you're thinking or audiobook it was not narrated by Simon, you know But he's really really good But I wanted to speak about the process of book writing because so many people out there have you know dreams of getting down and writing a book and um How long does it take you how how what a chunk of your life do you have to give to writing a book? It's um It's a slow process and a careful process and a considered process It you can't do it quickly. I think each of my books has taken probably about four years Wow from start from start to finish And it takes a lot of time just to get the concept Right actually and to think what's your what's your thing? How are you going to pitch this? So just to take um I've still got all of it, you know with somewhere on my computer I've still got all of the early working drafts of all of my books and you just see the way It evolves that it starts off with this concept then it bends to that concept then that You know and then finally the publisher will say we want this concept and you're like, okay That's what I'll write to then, you know um So it it's really it's it's really slow, but you've just got to keep going with it now. I I I will tend to do it in kind of short bursts And so and I'll do it during my work is very seasonal speech writing work is very seasonal basically all of the big speeches In the year are given between September and March And so then the rest of the year You'll get the odd thing come in speeches to employees stuff like that But the conference season is September to March And so I'll do little on my books between then it's something that keeps me buzzing over during those You know during the summer months basically where I'll do a lot of reading a lot of reading Each book that I've written has probably Taken about 250 books that I've read Wow to then To then produce, you know, and so all the time I'm kind of considering the issue and just getting more stuff in It's like that wonderful Peggy Noonan quote about reading is collecting wisdom and writing is spending it, you know But it's I enjoy it a lot You know, I I I love writing books love it and and obviously they're nonfiction Do you plan out like you would the plot of a fiction book? Do you plan it the whole way and then start to write it or do you just go for it first chapter and then do a linear Here it comes like what's your planning style? well I mean, I mean, let me talk you through just briefly like two of the books that I've written actually So the first the first one speech writing the expert guide Which came out in 2010 I think and It was back in 2005 that I had the first germ of an idea For that and I was like I thought maybe let's do a One-hour Speech writer like, you know the one-minute manager that kind of thing You've got an hour to write a speech Let me write a book that just walks you through that process how to do it in in an hour And I was playing with that and then I had a more pompous lofty idea about a book on the art of oratory And then I kind of changed the idea and started writing it that way And then it got to 2008 and I was like I need to really start working I need to take this to completion now and I remember I always set myself annual targets like personal targets professional targets And I sent me the set myself the target I'm going to get a book deal by the end of this year for my speeches book And it got to literally end of November. I had no book deal and I was like right I've got to get this done. So I put wrote a proposal out then literally I got an email randomly From hail publishers Saying we're looking for someone to write a book about speech writing. Would you be interested? And I was like, well it just so happens And I then sent them the proposal we signed the contract before Christmas And so that was and they were like that they had a series the expert guide series the expert guide screenwriting the expert guides poetry writing And they said with we want your book to be part of that series So they gave me the title they gave me the premise my own ideas were then Out the window and I just wrote okay the expert guide speech writing brilliant, you know, there we go. That's my theme So that was pretty much directed by the publisher my more recent books. You are not human that was my I think unique idea, you know, I don't think anyone else really got that about political Dehumanization and the way it was systemic and there was a pattern to it Strategic and and it had been in place for thousands of years and that was my unique idea So then I had to pitch it to publishers That was much more flipping difficult. My god. That was a process It's much easier when you have a publisher come to you and say will you write this book? Then trying to pitch it to publishers and it was I mean it wasn't it really wasn't easy Actually, so with winning minds my second book winning minds was the same McMillan the head of McMillan CEO of McMillan saw me gave a speech and he said you should write a book on that And we'd publish it for you. So again, that was similar to number one Then number three was my own idea. I had an agent. She punted it out to all of the publishers all the big publishers And all of them were like, you know, it's good idea, but you know, we're It's a bit negative It's a bit down be, you know If he was to write something like this we'd like it and I was like, no, this really matters It's the age of trump the age of brexit And I was like someone needs to expose the language of dehumanization None of the big publishers wanted to know at all. They were like people come into Waterstones and they're seeking a book that will make them a better person They will buy a book that will make them a better person. They don't want to buy a book that will make them miserable Your book is going to make them miserable and I was like, but it's important And and they didn't want to they didn't they were they so I didn't get a deal from Penguin Random House, Harp Collins, not any of those and instead it was Byteback Who's a brilliant publisher. They're brilliant publisher And they're the best political publisher In in the country and they published from the whole breadth of political Opinion and I was so delighted when they picked it up and they were just let's straight away They got it They could see this was a political argument that needed to be pushed for they changed the title of it So I think hard called it language That kills was my title and they were like language is a negative word people don't want to know about language They say and I then proposed them. You are not human and we went like your personal Yeah, yeah, yeah Well They people go in to the bookshop to be a better person What gives you a complete understanding of what's going on? So Was it was it in draft form or proposal? How do you how do you approach the publishers? Do you have to get a chunk of it done or it's just a synopsis or how is it? So I've got an agent who who guides who guided me through with you are not human and who got me the deal with By back and who's now Punting out book number four Actually, it's publishers. Um, so that's going out in the moment So that there's a proposal which is going around publishers at the moment To people who are wondering what's a proposal look like? I mean, I can tell you what a proposal looks like it looks like a book It's effectively a book. So so what the publishers have from me now is 25 000 words Bearing in mind the final draft is 70 000 words. So it's already pretty well completely written in outline So that So you've got the whole narrative So you can read that proposal and you're like, I've got the essence of the book You know, so anything else that will go in there will go into more detail We'll elaborate on the stories will provide more color You know, all of these sorts of things but they basically have the book and it's my agent who You know taught me to do that flicity brian literary associates. They're the brilliant agents And yeah, so So for budding writers out there You either have to put in three years of work and then wait for the the lucky email Or you put in loads of work 25 000 words and then start bunting it around the work has to be put in Yeah, and my main advice to budding writers who are listening to this Today is really concentrate on getting your pitch right In actual fact the the thing that sells it to publishers and to agents Is the title of the book and the back cover You know, you've got to get those 250 words right You know and like as I was saying to you about oh, shall it be the one hour speech writer or shall it be the art of oratory? Shall it be speech writing the expert guide? They're fundamentally different books Those three books are fundamentally different books and it's your overall proposition the concept of the book That's what says whether it will sell or not. And so in the first instance Instead of it, don't write your two on 25 000 words. Don't bother writing the first chapter Get that right get your concepts and your pitch right and really visualize it Could you really see this in a bookshelf? You know in a bookshop, you know Is your back blurb Really really is it brilliant? You know and it doesn't have to be a lot of words And that's the thing you get that right and you've then I mean not only will it sell the book, but it'll give you your marching orders as a writer This is now what i'm writing to And and do you have to as a proposal? You said you have to get the the title right and the black in the back cover Do you have to get the the title page the front cover the visual or that's much later in the process? I I do For me I do But i'm a very visual kind of person and visual thinker and all of that but for me I I want to see it and literally what i've done With the last two books I've mocked up A pdf of the overall cover that i've then kept at the side of my desk Which again gives me my marching orders. This is what i'm writing to don't lose track This is your overall message because I think it's so easy when you're a writer And particularly when you're writing a book and it's over such a long period of time three four years or whatever Your your mind can wander your focus can wander And you end up writing several different books Whereas of course the publisher just wants one coherent Line of argument through the whole of the book and so light with you know The the big non-fiction books like nudge Tipping point whatever. I mean it's nudge. It's tipping point You know, they're the ideas of those the rules of influence, you know chaldeany, you know the the title tells you Exactly what the contents of the book is are going to be So interesting. I'm I'm sure that so many Budding authors out there. I've never heard about this about getting the back cover right. That's really really valuable stuff. Yeah um, just one more question about the the writing process that the The book winning minds. It's really funny Like, you know, the the jokes are in there Uh to you know peppered throughout to really, uh, you know liven it up and you know, it's I'm just wondering like did you put them in because you you've got the natural Comedy that comes out in your sentences. You want to push the the comedy at every stage Or did you write the serious stuff and then go back and put the jokes in like I need a joke here to get the rhythm going and How do you work with the humor? I I'm a big believer in the power of humor for getting messages across Um, I I know for myself. I have the attention span of the nats You know, so I need so I need that promise of a joke to keep me going As well. So I know I enjoy it and I think um a lot of the stuff that you've got in winning minds It's actually stuff that I have said before in speeches or on workshops or in one-to-one Sessions and so jokes that just kind of come out naturally, you know, or spontaneously. I'm like, oh, I've got to store that You know, this is like my my This is what I sell basically. It's you know, the ability to you know, um to to to explain how good communication works and so I always kind of Lob them in there, but I'm glad you enjoyed them because a lot of them are actually quite purile It's like I've never once missed the cheap innuendo But do you put them in as you go or you know in a like the I don't know version three draft eight You know, do you go back and you go oh I needed I need something here God, I don't know. I think I think they kind of it's more like my line of argument my patter On an issue will develop over time And I'll just I'll see the opportunity for a gag normally later once I've worked out what my point is So I'm like so for instance if I'm talking about um the power of pronouns So, you know, whether or not you're saying you've got to do this or we've all got to do this Well, that was um something that I'd read about in an academic study james penny baker professor of linguistics university of austin texas He's written a brilliant book the secret life of pronouns, which I really enjoyed And I thought there's an important lesson there for speech writers About how if you want your text to feel less combative more conciliatory than you should just take your speech And we all over it, you know, and so it's like it starts off with the Message the piece of advice and then I'm like oh, I can see there's an opportunity for a little cheap pun here Let's I can't and I can't resist it. I throw my hands up, you know Sometimes when I'm presenting this stuff, you'll get three quarts of people Like we'll have a little chuckle and the rest would just go oh god So last question about book writing How difficult is it to say okay? It's finished. That's it. It's gone. I'm letting it go It's really satisfying actually. I think for the for the last That last run of the process So basically after you get your book deal you got got your book deal and then I think from then it's normally about six to nine months to actually finalize the text And when you get to the end of it, you you're just like, yeah I'm done with this now. You know, you're just like there's there's no more I can do of this I think as well you can hit a point Where you actually realize that your amendments are making it worse not better So you can get to like the thing that a lot of you know, particularly with the speech writing discipline You you learn that good writing is always about cutting Stuff out. That's always that always makes a speech better You know, so someone gives you a 40 minute speech. You're like, I can make this much better Make it a 20 minute speech Just up all of that stuff out and when you get to that position with a with a book, obviously you're then in Difficulty you can say things in whatever length of time you like, you know You start off with an 80,000 word book and then it turns into a TED talk, which is 15 minutes And then you do something for TikTok, which is like 57 seconds or Or whatever and it's the same kind of message but just to to suit the reader and a book You know, it needs to be more considered. You need to you know, not be Like kind of, you know, banging the reader over the heads But rather instead like walking them on a bit for journey and being a bit more nuanced and being like well on the one hand this on the other hand that and maybe maybe and just kind of like Planting thoughts in the reader's mind and letting them draw their own conclusions being far more kind of accommodating I think to the reader's own impressions, then you are in a speech where I think in a speech you can With charisma energy pace You can just whiz people along a lot more quickly and be a lot more forceful. I think Okay Let's move on to speechwriting your super expertise. So, um, I just wanted to delve in by saying like what do you think of the old business adage that I I was in corporate for quite a while And I heard this many times with about a speech Tell the audience tell them what you're going to tell them Then tell them then tell them what you just told them. What do you think of that approach? Yeah, well, I think that is like, you know But um stamp on your audience's head and then tell tell them your audience They tell your audience you're going to stamp on their head then stamp on their head and then tell them their head's just been Stamped on it's not it's not the best. It's really not the best advice. I I think you know rather instead Good communication Whether it's a presentation or a speech or a book or a film or or whatever We'll take people on a bit of a journey. You start in one place You end in another so you start with a problem. You wind up with a solution You start in the past and you end up in the future You start with fear you end up with hope, you know, and it's far more doing that kind of That sort of journey. I think is pleasing for audiences And and for the for the people listening There's some very useful content that you've got on youtube and even tiktok now on the ways to start a speech So check out simon on those channels um Now when you accept a job Maybe with a new person that you haven't worked with before What is the first step that you go through? Well, um Yeah, I mean It depends it depends what they're looking for really if they're looking for long-term support Or if they're just looking for a one-off they have one speech that's coming up after which they want to do If they're looking for long-term support, then generally I'll go and meet them And pre-covid now we'll do over zoom, you know, we'll just have a chat and just feel The the chemistry, you know, um, and I've got to feel it too, you know There've been a couple of people that I've met. I've just been like, oh, I'm not quite feeling the magic here You know and and then I've just sent a polite, you know in actual fact looking at my schedule for the next few months and a little bit busy Um, and now I've not I've not gone ahead with it But if it's someone, um, if it's someone who just wants a one-off speech, then what I will do with them I have a kind of a really quick fire speech writing surface that I will offer Which is what most of my clients want actually they just want to get that first draft that's been Professionally produced and then they want to own it and it's great. They do want to own it. They must own it They're the ones that've got deliver it their career lasts on it So what I will generally do when I'm working with clients. I will meet with them first thing in the morning 7am 8am however early they want to start it's how early I will start and then we'll have a briefing Meeting and I have all of these Super questions that I asked to get the very best Out of them just to get right to the core of their Soul, you know, which I will do really very quickly You know, it's got to be very very efficient because for these people time is not just money time is a lot of money You know, your CEO of a big company your time is like 250 Grants An hour by one calculation, you know, so you've got to be really really efficient But is that random stuff like, you know, what was the last thing you listen to on Spotify? If you're trying to get to the soul of the person Sometimes there's a bit of just the kind of serendipitous like just let's just Wander around and see what falls out But I have my systematic questions that I'll ask as well, you know So like who would come to your dream dinner party? This takes people like, you know Five six minutes to do And the answers you get to that. I'm like, I'm really beginning to know you now You know, when were the times of your life when you felt warmest and when were the times when you felt most cold, you know using the metaphor to kind of Suggest happiness Unhappiness distance, you know, and then you'll get some good stories out from you know So I have a few different questions that I'll I'll work through but we did so we do that First thing in the morning, then they'll check in with me I'll I'll so I'll spend an hour with them maybe 90 minutes And then on that will agree a concept for the speech An outline structure that we'll just talk back and forth So I'll pitch the idea to them then they'll pitch it back to me kind of go back and forth until we feel we've got something Good. Um, and then I'll get writing. They'll then check in with me normally around about 11 11 30 I'll ask them any questions. I have to ask. They'll give me some early feedback on how the draft is shaping up And then we'll be all done by lunchtime You know, and I'll get them a draft which they're then happy with Lunchtime can sometimes stretch to two or even two 30 Hence my my coming on late today But you know, generally that that's the way that will work and that works best for me You know because then I can just immerse myself in their worlds Writing a speech really does require that you pretend you're them. You're the client for A set period of time. So, you know, I can't carry that around all of the time, you know So, you know, like give me four weeks to write your speech That's not going to work for me because then I'm I'm I will because the kind of person I am I'll have that like Not in my stomach for four weeks Whereas for me just like right, I'll work for you for five hours six hours I'll give you my absolute all and I guarantee you will have a draft of your speech at the end of it It won't be perfect and you'll want to Make changes to it But that that for my clients is a is is a really great deal And they love it actually sometimes they come back to me afterwards and say would you just have another look at it? You know, I've changed it around a little bit. Would you not know? Absolutely, you know But that yeah that as a working model that works really really well and as I said, I've worked in corporate and I was actually making I did various things but I remember doing some power points for the CEO and The the problem is there's too much That they want to say and put in and it gets longer and longer and longer and longer Is that the case? Generally with people who are wanting to make a speech that they've got way too much stuff that they want to say and it's more about editing down Yeah, I mean Power points are flipping nightmare. I mean it really is a nightmare. It's a nightmare for the person producing it It's not enough people who are listening to it and I think here what you've got Sometimes not often but sometimes I do work with people who would do in PowerPoint presentations and I need to help them like You know and spruce it up. I have literally just been working on one literally just been working on one And and there the trouble with PowerPoint is it pushes you to mixed metaphors the software is actually You know designed to push you towards mixed metaphors So you don't have that clarity of idea one second It'll show you a seed being planted the next second It will show you a journey and the next second it will show you do you know what I mean? And it's like audiences and getting anything straight So one of the things that I will do when I'm working with a client who's doing a PowerPoint is I'll say You know, okay. We need a clear message Running through this a clear metaphorical image running through this and so let's go with motion You know Let's it feels to me like motion is the one we should be going to So let's make sure all of the images in our slides are saying motion You know and make sure that the language is motion Metaphors and then the audience will be able to understand it whereas if you've got a journey A seed and a plant, you know and then a picture of a family and then concentric circles and stuff like that It's bewildering absolutely bewildering for the audience But you know just a little thought like that can make a huge lot of difference But one of the things I think and I'm sure you'll have found this in corporate life So well, it's sometimes with PowerPoint The purpose of it is actually to give people Something that they can then refer to afterwards So that if it's like the quarterly results or whatever analysts will want to go away And go through them in slow Time so you you have to cater for that But also you need to cater for the just the the feel at the time And for that that's kind of more where I will Offer my expertise just on how on first impressions of language is this coherent What were the messages you're landing here? This is back to Boris, isn't it with his food metaphor with brexit It was not only on message. It was on metaphor That the string went throughout And do you find that when you've done when you've created a speech that you know, maybe a CEO Passes it through his leadership team perhaps and then it comes back as you say in winning minds You said like the HR guys into cars so that the car metaphor gets thrown in and Does it ever come back to you and like what you wrote has been mauled and mangled and there's like loads of different metaphors And you have to go back to the beginning. Is it difficult? No, no, I'm not not No, I mean CEOs are so powerful You know, I mean, it's much harder. I think being a government minister When if you're a secretary of state or even a prime minister and you want to say stuff You've got a million people who have every right and power to veto you say in that Whereas when you're a CEO you're master pretty much of all you purvey You know and CEOs can get away with a lot more It's trickier where it's tricky is actually where I've helped out writing the Board members like CTO CFO all of these kind of guys head of HR They're the ones where it's more tricky Because then the CEO may have ideas about what they're saying or their fellow board members might want to You know, that's trickier. That's then much trickier But CEOs can you know in my experience, they've got a lot of power and and they'll they they normally like What I do because my whole approach is basically what do you want to say? I'll help you say it Whereas they will regard people in their companies Generally as being a bar to them. So I'm I'm the CEO's best friends, you know, I'm their ally And it's the company who works is working against them sometimes So so what would you say is like the maximum number of points that you should try to get across in the speech because people are You often hear people saying that you should only try and do three things But I think in the book you said that maximum is seven or so what what would be your advice to people who are giving an important speech about the number of Things that they can say that their audience will retain Well, I think it's more about feelings, you know Rather than points that when you ask people, what did you think of that speech? They will always reply with a feeling, you know And oh, it was really inspiring, you know, oh, it was a bit much. Oh, it was a bit boring, you know Um, and so my my sense my thing is always how do you want to make them feel and then start with that? So you're you're making an inspirational speech Then do that you want to see people you want to see people Sitting there at the end with big smiles actually feeling positive and like really, you know on their feet like punching the air You know, that's what that's what you want to get to Um, that's the way I think rather than how many points can you get across in terms of maximum? But if you're going points getting across, of course, it's free But I'd never guarantee they would be retained. It's it's quite surprising whenever you see speeches being properly analysed and like, you know questionnaires to everyone afterwards and says what was the main message you took from brand speech You know, you get 700 responses. You get 700 different responses, you know And with the exception in my experience of where you do something a little bit edgy And you give them a single new metaphor Or something like that and then you might be able to get it You might be able to get it through, you know Like we've got smashed through the glass ceiling that could get through Three points. Not so much one metaphor one message you know That can get through and what's your advice on timing? Is it uh, you know in the You should go for like the Ted talk kind of timing 18 14 to 18 kind of minutes or you know, is that is the value in doing like Here's my message bang might drop one minute Yeah I mean, it's different strokes for different folk. I think isn't it and it's we like Receive an information in different ways, don't we so sometimes you do just want a Wham-Bam. Thank you man You know and and so so that tick tock You know the little tick tock video that I did which is like is one minute Six techniques to speak like a leader Um, and a lot of people have loved that. I mean, I put it I put it on tick tock almost as an experiment It was my first tick tock post and it had 100,000 views within two days. It was phenomenal You know, and I think people like that kind of thing But then you have other people Who who will like slow more careful deliberation? So you've downloaded the audio book of winning minds. That's what six hours or something is it or seven hours or something? You know, so that's a few different car journeys, isn't it where you've got it all whatever way you've got it on In the backgrounds Um, so I think never in the background. Come on Simon I'm Front of minds you're too kind friend. Yeah Um, but I think it's it's putting your content and your ideas out there I suppose in a range of formats so that people can go into whatever level of depth They want to go into the topic for but a lot of people now just want it in the most bite size Chunks, so this is the challenge now, isn't it? It's like how can you tweet this? How can you say this in less than a minute? And it's a good discipline For for all of us. I remember when I was asked to do my TEDx talk thinking how can I cram my 80 000 word book Into a 1500 words TEDx talk and you're like this is impossible But the next thing you know, you are you're doing a 60 seconds tiktok video and thinking that's That was it. That's the best way to put this across And in your opinion are the best speeches are they the ones that are created by a wordsmith like yourself, but then the speech giver Goes from that plan and maybe goes off-piste for a moment and really speaks passionately about something Is that the the feelings that you're talking about is is that when the the real magic happens? Well, they've got to own it. I mean they have absolutely got to own it They've got to they've got to be speaking from their heart and soul where they deliver it So the range of exercises that I do with them, you know, it's it's to get them doing that kind of You know really speaking from their heart and soul So you really get the essence of who they are. So I'll get that from them. Hopefully in our Early morning session and it'll then be in their draft speech so that when they deliver it They can summon up all of those feelings that they have on on That issue later, you know, you want them to do it in a controlled Kind of way. You don't want them like wandering off Just doing something randomly because they might regret it. So if like This is an emotional moment and you're going to talk about, you know, you're you're You know a bereavement or something, you know some family tragedy or whatever you want them to have thought that through And be prepared and ready to disclose it in a way that is right For them. So you see Keir Starmer was on Piers Morgan life stories Yeah, I saw the I I'm actually living in Berlin. So I didn't see the tv show But I saw in the papers that he was on there. Yeah Yeah, and he went on and he talked about his mother dying and he cried on camera Now that's the kind of thing that would not have happened randomly He'll have thought very carefully On his own with his family almost certainly and with his inner team about whether or not he wanted to speak about that And he took a decision. I do want to speak about that. I think that's important for whatever reason You know and therefore I'm going to do it but on my terms You know and in a controlled manner and and that's the way it should be if if he went in there and that fell out randomly That that would be a mistake. You wouldn't necessarily want that because then he might have to deal with consequences. He hadn't anticipated Yeah, now you you've done what 10,000 20,000 30,000 hours of this now in your career God, yeah So you've developed this method and this relationship and rapport that you build with the with your clients Now people that wanted to get into speech writing obviously The first stop is read your books, right? But what what else would you recommend other some like Learned texts from back in the day that are essential reads Yeah, well, I mean I do training courses as well and I do coaching sessions and I've had I've now it's wonderful actually because I love passing on to the next generation. So to people who Are now in their 20s early 30s just starting out and you know inspiring them really because it is the most wonderful job in the world Writing speeches. I do genuinely believe it's the best job. I I feel blessed to have done this, you know, and and so I I do All sorts of training courses either online coaching or if not, we're back in the Groucho Club in London, which is what I do a wonderful free day speech writing extravaganza once a year Where we we we get together. Yeah It's fantastic and we go to the comedy store and study improvisation along the way and we get some academics in We get journalists in and so that teaches the art of speech writing really really brilliantly and you know speech writers from 10 Downing Street from FCO going all the way all of the government departments send their speech writers on my Training courses. I'm very pleased to say Which is great fun great and I love it. I love passing Passing on and you know, I am still a political junkie. I stopped working in Whitehall myself 15 years ago But I love hearing all the gossip from the center So it's great. It's the privilege Now nothing is ever perfect because that's totally subjective But when you craft what you consider to be a beautiful speech and it hits all the marks What is it that achieves perfection for you? Do you get to see or hear the audio or see the speeches on video? Maybe and then you go like That was the one that was absolute perfection What is it that creates that feeling for you as a speech writer? Is it that the words came out as you crafted them or was it That plus the delivery or what is it that creates that amazing feeling for you? For me like you say it's subjective and so I never count my own opinion actually My thing is watching the audience. That's where I get my thrill You know, but by the time the speech is actually being delivered And I do always go and see my clients deliver their speeches whenever I can You know, because it is it's that a sense That's the way to evaluate whether or not you've really really done a good job and you learn as well. You see them adapts You know a sentence like Mid-mid flow and you're like, oh That that hurts when you see them do that. You're like, oh, I could have done that one better You know, that was a that was a fail but black mark there But you know, it comes with watching the audience. That's what I love when you tell a story and you actually see Members of the audience says you do when you've told the story well with tears in their eyes That's what you should get with a good story when you you've got a gag And the audience are actually splitting their sides Or you've put in there some kind of You know activity something some random thing where you've got everyone up and then You know and and it works that's that for me is the real Yeah, you know and you can track on twitter now, of course as well when the speech is being delivered you can see, you know Certain lines being quoted and you're like, yeah, so that's the way I evaluate It's the audience response that that counts far more than my impression Or listening to the speaker. It's the audience effect. That's what it's all about for me. Nice And you spoke about tears in the eyes What's the greatest speech from a movie that you've ever heard? The most motivating I'm straight there Rocky Balboa Do you know the one I'm talking about Rocky six Balboa? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Balboa. Do you and you know the one I'm talking about? I remember how hard you get hit It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. Come on that That has put is put into my eyes. Just um thinking of that quote actually that is absolutely that is um That's gotta be Stallone has written that himself because he wrote the original Rocky all himself But I think he went back to like being the absolute the soul Script writer for that one for the sixth one I I'm a big Stallone fan It kind of upsets me because when people slag him off because he is seen as being Like kind of thick and Rambo and all of that sort of stuff here. I mean Rocky one. It's a work of art That's like the ultimate indie art movie. It's Absolutely, it was made for less than a million dollars. I think wasn't it? It's You know Yeah, that's sister. They wanted to cast someone else, but he insisted It's quite dark in places like Saturday night fever as well dark movie, but yeah That's another great people remember the set pieces My other favorite movie speech is the wolf of Wall Street, you know where he's uh, Leonardo DiCaprio is addressing all of the traders That that is a great one for use of rhetorical devices. So throughout that speech he uses rhymes He uses the rule of three uses repetition has metaphor Um, that's that's my second greatest. Yeah Okay, let's start wrapping it up by going to your TED talk. I mean you've done three TEDx talks now now That's it. Yeah, but um, let's let's speak about uh, how to how to speak like a leader Which has got like three gazillion views. I think now um So when you did that TED talk As a speech writer Rather than a speech giver, how long did it take you to prepare for that? Was it like writing a book? No, I mean I got pretty well thrown into it actually So it was my um, good friend the lovely caroline goyder. I don't know whether you've come across caroline She'd be a great interviewer for you actually look her up after after this She's she's she did a huge TEDx talk at Brixton Which said millions of views. She's written great books on gravitas. She's a body language expert And TEDx Verona had asked her to speak and I think she was either pregnant or had just had a baby and so she said at the time So she said I can't do it but ask Simon he'd be good And so I got the invite with like about I think about four weeks notice And so I didn't have an awful lot of notice, but I'd wanted to do a TEDx talk For ages and I was just like, oh, wow, this is my big big big opportunity You know, I've always wanted to do it and so it was very very exciting such a thrill You know, I've watched and enjoyed all the TED talks and TEDx talks For years and it was it was wonderful But it was a big big step for me because up until that time, you know, apart from doing the odd lecture at universities, I wasn't really a Keynote speaker. I wasn't being marketed as a keynote speaker. I did that TEDx talk Instantly the feedback from the room was incredible. You know, I mean I was being treated like a rock star afterwards It was so like such a head spin. It was like amazing and on the back as soon as it went on YouTube, I remember seeing it go up and I think on the first day it had a thousand views And I was like, oh, this is going well and then within a week it had 10,000 views And I was like blimey within a month it had 100,000 views and then it was a million within a year and it was On the back of that, I got invites to speak everywhere around the world literally everywhere around the world You know within a year I was I gave a speech in Johannesburg. I gave a speech in Washington I gave a speech in India in Delhi gave a speech in Manila Kuala Lumpur and right across Europe all on the back of the TEDx talk So it was the most amazing. I mean talk about how to market yourself as a keynote speaker Brilliant So have you turned into a TEDx like rock star? You know you have the eye line of the makeup and then you have all the brown M&Ms taken out of the tray I haven't got the eyeliner on am I you know my um, I don't know. Oh, you're giving me a good idea there. Thanks for the advice Maybe I can notch this up a couple of levels Okay, but this this is this is interesting for people who would like, you know, I want to do a TEDx talk How did you practice? Did you have Moments and this same for your clients actually I presume that you don't tell them to memorize every word So how did you approach that? Did you have Moment that's not an auto cue that you see is there? No, there's not it's all memorized So I do do encourage my clients to memorize the text if they possibly can I think it makes it so much better. It really then looks like you're speaking from the heart If you've got an auto cue, that's fine. You can do that But TEDx don't allow that unless you're Cheryl Sandberg or whatever in which case they'll do whatever you want But for most ordinary human beings, they they will insist you you memorize it So the way that I did that I walked and said it so it was the old Roman system of remembering things by place And so not yeah, not through my house though. I did it Well, I'm in the Breckenbeekons here and there's a beautiful country hotel Just over the valley from where I am And I me and my wife went for a walk around the grounds And I I said the text to her whilst we were going about And then that locks it in my head and I can still remember and so then Whenever I was working through the text, I could kind of see oh, we're now walking down towards the river And we're walking past that stone and now I'm walking up a little bit There's that tree on the right and all of the sentences had attached to places Along the journey meaning it was remembered. So as I was standing on that stage in Verona I was I was actually visualizing having a walk around a Welsh country garden Um, and that's the way that works for me with with memory I think you do just have to keep reading it over and over again as well So the so that your muscle memory kicks in You know Go on That that so that method this well-known method of like the the Romans going through the house or the palace or whatever and Attaching a moment to each room and everything It probably doesn't work for everybody right for your clients What what are the other kind of methods that people can use to? Keep keep the progression through the speech You can do it. Um, you you can do it through through your body as well. It's another place So like you can work around the parts of your body I know some people who have done that So the the start of the speech might be that finger And then they work their way up So again, it's the same principle you're connecting parts of the speech and you're now right I'm on the shoulder that means it's this point and so on like that Otherwise a good old-fashioned way to do it is just take one sheet of paper And kind of draw it out with lots of different colors different size You know writing and stuff like that relating to the importance of the point you're making like a mind map but with a lot more Colors and sometimes little pictures on it and that can work as well Because then again, they're kind of visually then working around whatever it is that they've Drawn that can work quite nicely Um, does it when you do the repeated practice like a musician that you are Uh Is it difficult to time it right to know that you've practiced it to the point of almost perfection or you've gone past that point I'm thinking also in my head that I've seen, you know, Dave Gilmore from pink floyd saying that He always took the first recording of the solo trying to replicate it on the third or fourth It's never there the same emotion. I think slash from guns and roses. I've heard him say the same as well So is there any, you know to say it the first time it's going to have more emotion You're not that's not what you're saying to your clients at all. You're you're you're going you must be practiced Yeah, and I think sometimes sometimes what you can do um Is it's like and the Beatles used to do this actually when they were practicing is you can do it deliberately In a different way. So you don't get so bored of it So you can like read it out through your teeth like that like I'm delighted to be here today and it's great to see, you know Like that and just so it feels different or do it all in a very high pitch all just on one note So read the whole speech like that and then when you're on so restrict yourself in some kind of way So that then when you're on stage and you're free To vary, you know your volume and your tone and all of that you feel really excited and liberated and you know Or do it very strictly like that. So That might work I don't I don't know whether you've seen the wonderful Image of Lenin and mcpartney when they're rehearsing two of us on the let it be album and they're singing through their teeth Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the Peter Jackson film that's coming out as well Oh, yeah Okay, so speaking of the Beatles You are a huge fan. It's clear from your books because you're referencing them, you know deservedly because they are the masters, of course um Just going away from speech writing for a moment on piano, which is your favorite Beatles track to play along to Is it the simplicity of something like hey jude or is it something far more complex? It's actually, um, I think it's something Um, George Harrison something not not even one of the Lenin and mcartney ones that one on the piano is Is just beautiful and it was uh my wife and my wedding song as well We did an argentine tango to to it and so it has beautiful Uh beautiful memories for me, but that's I love the chords in that So that's a very simple C chord and then with the descending chromatic descending bass In fact, so it's a chromatic descending bass on C first and then he goes to relative minor goes to a minor and then it's a chromatic Descending bass from a minor as well. So it's wonderfully simple, but just so um, so expressive Pulling at the heart strings like a good speech the descending bass Just a couple more questions. What advice I I was speaking to mark bowden and I asked him a very similar question What advice would you give to people who have a real fear or even a phobia of public speaking? positive visualization I I feel for you. I really feel for you if you if you're someone who gets really bad nerves before public speaking Um, I did I used to when I was in my 20s I used to get very very nervous before speaking and I don't mean giving speeches I mean just speaking at meetings, you know While you were doing a tour de tabla and you were waiting for it to come to your turn To speak and I my heart would race and all of this and I think you can develop in your head a negative Mantra that you just repeat. I can't public. I can't do speeches I can't do presentations. I'm rubbish. I get so nervous You say that to yourself over and over again And then and then you really can't because you keep telling yourself that same thing over and over again So change the story you tell yourself, you know Tell yourself you're brilliant. Tell yourself you can do this Visualize yourself doing it see you just imagine create a fantasy In your mind, you know, we can all do that we can all fantasize about going on holiday or being with people You know that when we're not with we all have the capacity to fantasize to imagine And so fantasize about giving an amazing speech where they are laughing at your jokes And they're waiting on your every word You're hanging on your every word and they are loving it and visualize yourself as as that person And just call on that memory before you're going to sleep You know Before you give your speech and and change your own narrative because you can do this There's heaps of people who who get nervous who have got nervous And then they've turned around the way they thought about it And they have then become very positive confidence speakers on the back of that And practice because there's so many times in in corporate and in business where people spend so long making the power point And then there's there was standing up on stage and that's the first time they ever heard the words come out of their mouth Yeah, and they will cotton wool tongues. Yeah. Yeah, okay last question because uh Winning minds and your speak like a leader ted talk is actually highly condensed version of the book, right And you have these the the six things that everyone it's it's a it's a template for giving a A quick speech, right and I've seen you do it on the Party trick is underselling it But it's a nice thing that you do where you can take any topic And you do the the magic of three you do the breathless sentences all this kind of stuff um, so can you just super quickly explain that That playbook and then I'll give you a question to finish Which I gave mark bowden as well and uh, let's see what you do with that So your system the highly condensed version is That three breathless sentences broken homes failing schools sinker states create urgency sounds like you're hyperventilating three repetitive Sentences is it right that half our children leave school with five less than five gtses? Is it right that people are waiting months for an operation? Is it right that people are scared to walk on the streets of our capital cities? repetition Creates a motion builds energy with the audience then free opposites We're bringing light not darkness giving people hope not fear look into the future Not the past makes it sound as if you're balanced not biased Then you have a metaphor where you plant an idea in people's minds that you hope will take root and blossom Then you don't want to get carried away with your metaphor if you can taste sick in your mouth while you're saying it You've gone too far. You need to save energy for step number five, which is exaggeration Because it's now or never and i'm giving my heart and soul to this interview with you brennan You know, I swear I could talk to you forever. It's it's wonderful Absolutely fantastic and then end with a rhyme because a rhyme is sublime and a rhyme works every time And that's the six techniques And so the question using this method It's a bit harder than I've seen you had in the past, but the question is Would you rather you have to fight between two options? So would you rather fight a horse sized duck? Or 100 duck sized horses? Have I got to answer that using my If you can Right, okay Okay, okay courage determination strength I've never been one to shy away from a challenge I've never been one to show Fear in the face of a great adversary I have never been one to take the easy option in life I think there's something for all of us that we must Look for the challenges in life, not the things which are easy showing our best and best better selves rather than our weak and timid selves and Accepting great opportunities rather than turning them down and for me There would be no greater opportunity for me to stand taller as a human being than to engage in the ultimate combat Of our times now here you have suggested to me the mightiest combat that makes Thave and Goliath look like something for children And I would not want to fight lots of little things whatsoever for me the only solution that I could come up with is to Fight the horse-sized duck And if you don't approve, I don't give a Oh, you had to end with the gag of course Well done, that's a lot more difficult question than I've seen you do it with before so that's really really good thank you so much And yeah people if you want to learn how to do this kind of stuff then check out simon on youtube on tiktok Check out his three books. I'll put links to them in the description. It's been an absolute pleasure simon fantastic Talking to you. Thank you so much I've really enjoyed it brand and that is the most surreal question. I have ever been asked in an interview before Thank you so much