 Dave you've got a background in designing infographics. How did that happen? Wow, I well I went to art school. That's was my original training and I got my first art job out of school was do an information graphics for a newspaper and so I learned on the on the job and I can't tell you I can't think of a more fascinating career really because information design and information graphics if you do them For a living you're it's like being paid to be a student for the rest for your own entire life because you're always learning things and You're taking new information and all the time simulating it visualizing it. It's a wonderful career if you have a Graph if you have comparison points and all that how do you take something like that? Which is usually dry and boring and turn it into something interesting like an infographic Well, I learned how to make infographics when I was probably, you know, maybe ten nine or ten years old in school and The way that I learned was my my tendency was in order to learn something I had to sort of visualize it for myself whether it was drawing a graph or or drawing a picture of some kind and What I learned was If I would just listen and try and draw something it was almost always who I was wrong however What I would do is I would sit and draw in the back of class and then at the end of the class I would go up to the teacher and show the teacher my picture what I learned was even if a teacher Even if someone is not a visual Person if you show them a picture as a starting point they can fix it. They can correct it So they everyone is visual we're all visual thinkers in a larger sense in this if we If we can walk if you can walk into a room and not fall down, you know, you're a visual thinker You're keeping your balance. There's a lot of things that your brain is doing. You're not even aware of and so And this is actually played out in my professional career, you know I make I listen and I try and understand something nice draw and or sketch it as best I can And then I show it to someone who is an expert who really understands the field and they will help and so I see the process of Visualizing information as a very collaborative participatory process the more complex the Issues the more people you have to you know run it by you might have sometimes you might in a technology solution for example, you might need to talk to Six or seven ten people before you have all the pieces and parts together and one of the things that We developed in the the company that I started which is called explain was We helped we developed a lot of tools and methodologies for groups to draw together in a kind of facilitated way and The result of that is actually out there. It's a book called game-starving which is sort of a bunch of like practices that you can do with sticking out some Simple line drawings to and to actually get information out of people that you can put into an infographic Thank you very much