 Hello Atlanta hello Atlanta. I have a mic. I'm good Welcome welcome welcome to you from infrastructure administrator to cloud architects My name is Nikki Acosta. I'm a cloud evangelista at Rackspace, and we're thrilled you guys are here today So everyone having a good time at the summit How many of you is this your first time at the summit? Wow? awesome so for the past few summits I've given talks just kind of tracking historically the Jobs that are open for open stack and started doing this a few years ago And we so we've seen this just a huge explosion and tremendous amount of growth in terms of open-stack careers and the types of companies that are hiring for open-stack admins and Engineers and infrastructure folks and developers. So we're gonna talk about that today I'm really excited to be joined by four awesome panelists. These are Who's who of open stack really? You don't know about that So I'm gonna give these guys an opportunity to introduce themselves. We also have a hashtag that is set up it is Pound open-stack jobs And so if you are too shy to answer or to ask a question on a microphone Feel free to tweet it to us, and we will be happy to get to your questions Before we get started There's a there's us. I'll come back to this But many of you may have noticed this job board and this this picture was actually taken Early yesterday, and so I think now there's more stuff stacked on top of more stuff stacked on top of more stuff But just kind of a good kind of indication of the demand that is out there for open-stack expertise and so if we look this is something that I started tracking a few years ago when we were kind of In that mode of complete competing along the lines of a cloud stack in eucalyptus If we look at sort of the job trends For demand in open-stack. It is just blown up completely I talked to nick bar sets of in advance this morning great guy, and I said hey, Nick I'm doing a talk on Kind of jobs in open-stack where you guys at in terms of hiring and he said well right now We have ten open positions. Some of those are in France. Some of those are the in the US He's like by the end of this In the next few months really we're gonna have probably 50 openings that we're gonna need to fill So you're starting to see kind of seen the trend and moving away from people who are just working on open-stack To the entire ecosystem if you saw Troy toman's keynote. He had the ecosystem slide and defining depth core It's not just people who are working to build open-stack But now this whole rich ecosystem that covers everything from hardware to software to tools to appliances to Storage and network and compute and beyond so huge demand I think that's my earrings that's making this noise. It's not my earrings. That's really annoying. I'm gonna have to take those off So I'm gonna let these guys introduce themselves. We don't have that problem. I know that's really frustrating Why don't we start with you Aaron down there on the end sure absolutely so hello everybody My name is Aaron Delp. I am a cloud solutions architect for solid fire by day The nights and weekends job is I also run a podcast on cloud computing in a YouTube channel the cloudcast net and To kind of echo some of those sentiments very quickly of we talk to a lot of guests in this space And the number one thing we always talk about either on the podcast or after the podcast is How can people really get started and where are the demands and the number one thing we hear over and over is? they're just you can't find enough people in this space and so Whether it's we're talking open stack whether we're talking DevOps whether we're talking continuous integration this this trend in this movement They're simply the supply and demand is very very skewed right now and with that I'll hand it over to Eric. I Feel bad for Jason who's gonna have nothing left because we're just gonna use up the same topics over and over again My name is Eric right by day. I'm a mild mannered systems architect for a large financial services firm And again, we all have evening jobs and mine is I'm an independent blogger at disco posse calm and I've been involved in heavily in the VMware community moved over to open stack Work and and the blogging side as well over the course of the last year working with some fellow rackers We actually run the brown bag community and that's we did a couch to open stack series And my real focus has been on taking folks and kind of getting them into the one oh one two oh one level stuff And bringing them on board and understanding what open stack isn't how it's gonna relate against what they're already doing and where they think They're gonna be or whether they'd think it or not where they're going to be over the course of the next couple of years I mean you folks have probably got the same, you know feeling right now as you may be here with I've already I'm just reinforcing my learning or I'm going to start my learning process or I have my boss sent me here And I'm not sure why there's a lot of different levels But the cool thing is we all are gonna walk away with the same idea that we know this as Aaron said as a movement It's a change in the way that things are going I won't say paradigm shift in all that good market texture stuff But it really is a change in the way we do things and and it's gonna change the way that you do your job And the way that you act in your business day today, so I'm excited to be here. Thank you very much My name is Kenneth. I'm a technology evangelist at rackspace prior to that. I was on the cloud architect team basically Help assisting the sales team of talking about open stack of customers and then designing actual deployments and implementation. So I've been in the IT industry now for 20 some odd years and The closest I've closely I seem to this kind of rush to try to find people It's probably during the early days at a dot-com error You all remember that and also when NT when those NT started breaking into the enterprise and Basically anyone could spell NT would likely to get a job interview That's probably that's the closest An object can come to of what things I like right now in the job market today for open stack Hey everyone, I'm Jason Grimm That's a grim like fairy tales not like the reaper if you're if you want to email me It's Jason dot grim at rackspace So like can don't let the boyish charm and dash and good looks for you. I've been around for 20 or so years back naval intelligence long weird path through telecom and things like that, but the picture that Nikki showed that had the you know the flat line I'm not sure what that is. So that could say like Jason Grimm's career path So like, you know years of like not a lot and then when I when I found open stack Things I mean everything kind of changed. I mean everything became more exciting and more interesting and as I learned more About open stack There was just doors opening and I was running into people that you know We're we're interesting and we're doing really interesting things like for instance some PhD like astrophysicist doctors That were our customers. I can't mention their name, but I was at the open compute conference last week And he was saying that I had an intern come to me or a grad student that was applying and he got five other offers and We really wanted this guy because he was really hot and he accepted and when I when the doctor asked him You know, why did you accept and he said well you guys are gonna give me hands-on to open stack and That was just a confirmation of what I think, you know, we all know here is that you know It's the it's the hottest growing fastest growing technology most disruptive You know thing that we can be involved in right now, so So so some of you kind of have your roots in VMware and I imagine a lot of our audience members today also have their Roots in VMware. Can you're pretty active with the V mug user groups across the nation? It seems What is that transition like moving from something like VMware? How is it different? How's open stack different? so Aaron's actually been involved in VMware probably longer than I have but so I think that one big change is VMware is in fact a package product, right? So the the there's a lot of resources there to learn it But that you don't have to get into as much of the weeds with open stack the project Anyway, there is a lot of pulling pieces together So you have to be willing to be patient with yourself because it's not as simple as Now click if you know go walk through a wizard and you've got something open stack install There's a lot of hand editing of config files that you do With open stack that you didn't have to do a VMware So one one advice always give to people VMware people who want to learn open stack is brush up on your Linux skills There's no way around it. You're gonna have you're gonna get on the command line You're gonna be typing Linux commands. So you have to get used to that idea and the second thing is I Think in the VMware world was very easy to say Hey, you know app the business the developers or the lines of business said I want I want X so I'm just to give them X in the open stack world is a much more cool It has to be much of a collaborative process because we're exposing on these API's to the developers and they have much more control So it also means that you have to know the application layer much more than you ever than you had to do before So again, if you're at someone who used to who used to just giving out VMs with some storage and saying I don't even know what applications running on it. You're gonna have a problem with an open stack You need to know Web a little at least a little bit of the architecture behind a web application or a non-relational database Which is what's often run on open stack. Sure and completely agree and let me just expand on two points there From a day to day Admin standpoint, how do you actually operate this Ken is spot-on? And how do you get those skills up? Yeah in my mind? You know, it's kind of funny to say and kind of smart to say but Google is your friend, but I wouldn't even say that of slideshare YouTube blogs in this area of this community-driven project a lot of people are sharing a lot of great information of what is working for them and more importantly what isn't working for them at Times and so Ken has a great blog Cody bunch who is a racker has written some books on this I mean, it's there's a lot of great resources out there on the how to get low level and operate this now The second point though is you have to also think higher level when when we talk about virtualization and the shift that happened there you're thinking from an architecture standpoint didn't have to change All you were doing was taking something from a physical environment and moving it to a virtual environment The applications look the same ran the same you just took it from here and plopped it there what we're talking about here is a very different architecture of How things are really modeled the applications the way they look how they are deployed through You know the thoughts of DevOps and continuous integration There's actually much more to the architecture of the of cloud management than there was in the virtualization thing So there's really kind of two fundamental one very low level How do I get up to speed and secondly? How does the architecture change and what does that mean of matching an application to the management platform? When I do that all does the same sort of thing again coming out of the traditional VMware camp I was lucky I worked with Linux early mostly because nobody else wanted to and I thought that's Whenever I would see something that people were afraid of I thought that was a good place to try Because you've got to understand, you know what what it is that they're afraid of and luckily it worked out that It wasn't as difficult as most people thought and and my whole goal was to learn it so that I could share that journey and get other People down the road and make them more comfortable, you know again Ken says this isn't wizard driven This is not next next next deploy, you know, there's a lot more involvement The the general list is now a real win because you need to have an understanding of the broad base of the security Storage, you know network Application layers it's good to expand your knowledge So whereas we used to be told what you've got to become specialists and but a specialist is now a very broad thing You're a specialist in an ecosystem which ultimately means you're a generalist So it's a good time to you know get out there and experience different things and again The community is massive on this not just on writing and contributing to this project But to actually contributing to the training and sharing of information and getting other people involved to help them along and You know whether it's you know open stack as it is now or stuff that's come up to this point or what's coming next? It's it's out there and and everybody has that same level of access and that's a really phenomenal thing and I'll just add a couple of quick things regarding VMware that I Have conversations and they were uncomfortable for me for a while because a lot of times the answer was no or it doesn't exist And and someone would say this is how I do this today in VMware show me how you do it you know where's you know where's this function and where's this feature and You know it's so excited. I wanted to squeeze open stack into every you know square all I could make it fit and There's not and it there's not an easy answer a lot of times and those those things are philosophically and fundamentally different It took me a while to get my head around that You know you're it's built different. It's the use case is different. It's better. It's more utility based but as some some of these guys were saying You know transformatively and fundamentally and philosophically it's different. So you you kind of have to Understand that piece and then down under the hood from learning the bits I found early on that dev stack not only will give you an environment to play in but if you look down into one of the Folders, there's actually exercises to walk through and then it take the environment that was just built and do things with it and actually there's ways to Run and break the environment and force you randomly and force you to go and fix the environment So it's like it's not just your your sandbox There's actually some learning tools within dev stack, which if you haven't used it yet It's like two commands to get a whole open stack environment running if you want to get your hands dirty. That is the least Your quickest path to go So you guys mentioned a few things that I want to kind of dig into a little bit more as I kind of looked this morning I did a little bit of research was looking at the positions that were open within the open stack Community and ecosystem and I looked at the ones from a year ago. And so a year ago. It was very much Python developers It was infrastructure Specialist it was architects Now if I look today, we're starting to see that it's software engineer or DevOps engineer or software architects Are you all seeing that similar shift of expertise moving up the stack? And if so, how are you gaining the skills to move sort of at least be aware of familiar With the expertise needed to go above the infrastructure layer into the software layer Well, I think it's a good it's absolutely true You know just in the way that are the maturity the out of the whole ecosystem is pushing stuff up We don't need to be a hard core Python coder to to be able to get in there. It's not necessary anymore It's good to have an understanding of it like you're you have to have a comfort with the command line You know people always look at my my desktop at work and they say it looks like the matrix all the time everybody else is I'm supporting a lot of Windows systems. Why does it always look like that? Well, that's because I know there's different things that I'm looking at and that's that's the level that I go To but you I'm not a developer. I'm not a agile project manager I'm not a dev ops guru, but I understand what all of it is and how it interacts so that I can interact with the other teams That are actively doing that and that's the change in the roles that we're no longer Needing everybody to be a software developer that can carve off Python like it's a second language But these are people that can just understand that what Python is and how it's being used by the team of Larger communities of developers now and how it's going to come in dev ops Obviously is a big movement, you know number one read the phoenix projects, you know start there work your way up again You don't have to be actively deploying full dev ops infrastructure But understand what it is and that's that's the change that you know The role is now knowing the ecosystem instead of actively being a part of it Yeah, one of the interesting things I've been seeing is There was a time I think maybe a year ago even kind of you find out where when I talked to you Customers they were they thought of open stack as a free version of VMware And so they and along with that they thought they were thinking I would just take the same process and people that that I was using before with VMware and I'll pull it over and use it with open stack and We spent a lot of time trying to educate people on that how that's not the way things should be done And I'm starting to see that change this year where Almost every discussion I have about cloud computing and open stack It's generally paired with this concept so that I guess you call it dev ops But it's saying how we also want to change the way we Operate a cloud we want to change the way people work with developers We want to be more agile and use you know different tooling then you then they decisionally use So I think that's what that's what's driving those types of new job requests is that if you are a Traditional infrastructure. I'm in today. Maybe doing VMware or hyper V or windows There's a new set of skills now that you need to learn And it doesn't always has it's not all technology either It isn't just learning open stack and you can become a open stack Architect you have to actually learn skills like how to talk with developers and how to work collaboratively Yeah, if you guys don't know what Jenkins is you need to learn what Jenkins is because it's gonna come up in your As you make that transition to do cloud computing I'll just add something real quick because you guys actually took all the good answers So the only other thing I would add is is absolutely in this this shift in Open stack as a project over time we spend a lot of time I would say you know in Portland last year of there was a really a lot of how do you get? The underlying components to actually functionally work And it was almost like a red light green light kind of thing of does it work doesn't not work Is it functional? Yes or no? And I think we've moved beyond that to the point where it isn't does it work or not because it does It's more of is it a car that goes 20 miles an hour or is it a NASCAR that does 200 miles an hour, right? I mean Atlanta, so I got to pull in a NASCAR analogy at some point and and so it's really how Fast can you go and how how well can you tweak and tune? And I think that's where the jobs are really starting to be more of how do I operate this and how do I operate this? Efficiently as opposed to how do I just get this working and out of the garage in the look? I mean you look outside there are a ton of vendors here I mean I think one of the things that I hear more than anything else is like People who go and it start to explore open stack again It is not a product and people want to think of it that way But now you have plugins for everything you have optimized hardware for things you have the option to go DIY or you can use a vendor How do you wrap your head around all the various plugins and everything that's going on with every project? And how do you make the decision to either go DIY or outsource it to a vendor or leverage some expertise elsewhere? That just kind of blew my mind because I'm thinking about the response to the last question, but I guess they kind of tie in together So looking at open stack it's funny because it's going up the stack and to your last question It's also going down the stack if you look at projects like LBAS and L3 and firewalls of service and VPN as a service going up and Open stack controlling more of that and from the from the downside ironic and more bare metal and more vendor drivers Giving open stack yet more control over the infrastructure and over that hardware It's almost like a you know pinky in the brain You know open stack is going to take over the world and your whole data center, but it's From a project selection standpoint. I think the dividing factor is if there's a vendor a Bundled distribution or supported release of open stack will say and that meets all of your needs Then it might be something to consider more strongly if you have Things that you know other projects that may be an incubation or integration or you have some very specific Needs and the way you need to deploy that a lot of times, you know, you're in a in an area where I do it yourself You know solution might work better now that the DIY is Tough because you've got to ramp up your technical bench to support that and as we've been saying it's not It's not just Linux, you know, it's not just network. It's not just this or that It's a whole philosophy and you got to know the apps as well. So To me that the the break point on you know, which do you do it yourself or do you look at a vendor solution comes to? understanding your technical requirements very closely and then Deciding what you can or cannot live with in a in a prescriptive solution And I'll just add to again I For me the some of those routes Actually, it's the bigger architecture kind of thing of of again Assessing the workloads that you have in your environment both today and in the future and figuring out Which of these potential architectures can fit to that our projects or products and It's really about where you are coming from in a background, right? So I did I did bare metal hardware so you know servers and storage and then I moved on to virtualization and then eventually into converged infrastructure and then from converged infrastructure to to really cloud management and What I did though is in this transition You always want to be outside of your comfort zone so that you're always moving and learning and embracing these new technologies That are moving our industry forward but at the same time you don't want to be so far out of your comfort zone that you're completely lost and that can absolutely happen and Especially in the do-it-yourself route You know, I completely admit there's no way I should be anywhere near neutron at this point Right there are certain projects that are good for me and there are certain projects that are bad for me, right? And so that is an area where again you have to assess your bench staff You have to assess the products that are out there as well as your architectures and kind of wrap it all together And there is no right answer. There is no silver bullet It is going to be whatever is unique for your situation Based off of your workloads your staff and and what you have available I saw a t-shirt actually many of you may have seen this during the conference But someone has a t-shirt and it says Nova Network and then it says quantum And then it is neutron and then it says Nova Network and all the other three are crossed out so it just kind of goes to show there's some There's some competing thoughts there when it comes to networking just as a whole and I think it's one of those projects that People are really struggling with because it's so fundamentally different than the way that People have been operating for so long So to get a question you had earlier I'll take it a little slightly different direction is I think Because the OpenStack project is evolving so quickly. I think the skill sets That you need that people are looking for evolving just as quickly. So I think There was a time where there was a value in someone being able to configure a rabid MQ and set up my sequel Database I think now though we're moving starting to move into a point where Your ability although you still need to know Linux skills because you still need to know kind of at the core how things work I think we're starting to get to the point where there's a lot more value as they're more project coming into Into OpenStack someone there needs to be people who see the whole big picture Who can make that decision for that for their employers to say What pieces within OpenStack should I be using and how should I put it together? So I think someone did a study and they were like 500 Potential configurations for deploying OpenStack today, and that's only growing as we add more services to it So who is the person who can who can take the business and application requirements from their employees and say? This is the this is the configuration that will work out that's optimized for this particular Requirement, and I think if you can do that Then you become invaluable to your employer and invaluable to other potential employers How many of you have spare time? Nobody right so there's probably a lot of folks that are sitting around going okay This sounds great OpenStack learning it blogs trainings, which a lot of vendors host how do you make the case to your leadership teams To allow you to go and get those new skills or sponsor the idea to perhaps Send people to chef or puppet training or something like that How do you convince the people above you that it's the right thing to do for your business? There's a real change I find Personally in the way that a lot of this happens is that as architects whether it's systems architects Or you're moving towards cloud architect or whatever your role is no matter what level you're at We have to do a lot more to just show it's already happening It was the old classic thing. It's easier to get forgiveness than permission You've kind of got to be running the stuff, you know even on your own time a little bit And I know no one has free time But we have enough free time that this is your future You know we took five years out to go to university or six years or no years You know in some cases whatever it is we but we we took that time out to educate ourselves in a different way and employers have a different you know view on it because of course there's There's more and more training opportunities out there But they're also growing in cost and if you're going to train towards something that they aren't using already It's a tough justification so that's why we kind of have to be a little bit more self-directed and again because of the Depth and the width of this community. There's so many great resources you can get With a limited amount of time, you know like slide share YouTube's watch the open stack summit presentations from last year. You're gonna see these They're gonna be online soon after we do them, you know this week So there's quick ways that you can get at podcasts, you know, listening in your car You know you're walking your kids to the beach You can you know listen in one year while you're watching them play out in the sand There's we have to kind of take it unto ourselves to get ahead of it And at that point we can pitch the case better to what our management teams because they want to hear what's my What's my value prop? What am I going to get by sending you on? Either $5,000 of training or letting you go for four hours a day for three days and figure it out yourself We've we've got to create that value prop and show that we can prove it out So I've just what I've got a little secret for all of you in the audience Every one of your employers everyone whoever you're working for they are looking at an open stack So the question isn't really I think the question isn't hey It's my employer using thinking about open stack and how do I get them to do that so I can get training? It's I think it's up to you to find out which group in which Organization within your company is looking at open stack and then saying hey I've actually started learning this so I want to be involved because I can help I can help Let's deploy it more quickly And I was just going to add the number one thing I found is find a point project Find that one use case or that one application or that one project in your organization That looks new looks shiny and looks like it could be a good fit for this and then Get yourself attached to it and that is the value of learning as we go today is Completely necessary especially in this industry of everything moving so fast a Lot of the building the plane while we're flying it happens all the time and That is the biggest thing I've seen as a motivator for organizations of I need to get to that goal How are we gonna get there? We'll figure it out as we go So that that question of how to upsell it internally It's a conversation a couple of weeks ago, and it's been stuck in my head ever since and we We're at an impasse in the conversation where we were very passionately speaking with this other company about open stack and you know all the value Proposition and you know the you know the DevOps and the time to deployment and all this and we got it in the Got it in the conversation, and the response was well, that's great, but you know so what? So what I you know it takes me 90 days to deploy a Bare metal today in 30 days to do a VM and and it costs 10 times as much but you know so what and We're all you know Everyone around was kind of there's like a hundred answers But it becomes a religious debate at that point and one of the guys looked at him and said because if you don't you're gonna fail and He said Then there's another pregnant silence after that and and he went on to say your competitors are doing it and if you don't You know if you don't get into it or at least look at it or start going down that road Very honestly if everybody else is you know, you're gonna be selling encyclopedias before for too long so that So my response when I'm trying to upsell something is if you don't you're gonna fail So you know I would agree with Ken that if they're not deploying it they are earnestly looking at it It it's you know we've we're in this industry now, and we've everyone in this room has come up to something that has amazing groundswell I've heard the phrase more disruptive To the market than the mainframe You know to to wireless technology or to virtualization or any of those it truly is So that if you just go in to upsell that you just have that passion Well, just look them in the eyes and tell them they're gonna fail if they don't do what want them to do so You look like you had just had a light bulb go off. Yeah, just one thing and that's a great on what Jason said what all of us said it's It's gonna come and the difference is whether you get ahead of a new pitch it to your management team Or whether they come and they tell you that they've already hired a consultant That's going to do it and potentially put you aside in what you're doing You know you've got to take an active part in pushing this forward as Ken says it's already out there We think that we're ahead of it. It's like when they announce a merger. It doesn't didn't get figured out yesterday They've been working on it for 18 months. Open stack isn't gonna just lands tomorrow They've already been looking at it So you have a responsibility for yourself and for the growth of your organization to to get ahead of it and get involved So we talk a lot about the need for open stack But I think one one thing that might be hot on the minds of people or what are people actually using it for? You know obviously you guys work for different companies you have different perspectives What are the use cases where you're seeing that open stack is gaining the most traction you want to start with Aaron over there? Sure, so the the biggest use case. I'm seeing right now is Absolutely that that kind of test dev environment internally that QA testing of I need to spin something up And I need to spin it up in an orchestrated automated way where it is the same every single time I only use it for a short amount of time and I throw it back down I just you know that dynamic pools of resources. I need I check them out. I use them. I check them back in that is far And away the biggest one. I'm seeing right now Yeah, I mean that's the number one thing is if you don't have a use case for anything You're there's no point in even looking at it But the use case is number one if it's not answering a question of why then it's not gonna get you anywhere Like my use cases that I see is I'm because I'm in financial services And I work with a lot of folks that are in that space Private cloud is a number one reason why people are looking at OpenStack From my perspective because it's an option for them to completely grow their their insert internal data centers Turn them into private clouds potentially consume public services in the same Ecosystem so again, it's because you know that comfort it's it's inside. It's outside That's where it's gonna be. So that's a great use case that I found for it So again, I Rackspace what we see is test dev as the number one Current deployment use case but in terms of what's driving OpenStack adoption. It's I'm talking about it's usually one or two things one is My develop my developers is using AWS already or Rackspace public cloud And I've been told I have to give them the same experience in-house So that's a driver and then the second driver is I'm talking to more and more large companies where they're developing next-gen applications web scale Mobile type of applications and and what they're telling me is the way they were doing things the technology They used to use rather against windows or VMware can't scale fast enough To meet their needs and the only way they can do this is to use OpenStack with some hypervisor that can By the gram So use cases so I use OpenStack to mine Bitcoin mostly Now the the most successful use cases that I've seen and deployed and designed are Use cases where you can the guest operating system or the VM or the instance or the image Depending on on whatever you call it is is that agnostic as possible meaning you care is little about it as possible So you're horizontally scaled web and app tiers your engine X's and Apaches and Tom cats and things like that the best Use case It's kind of an overused word I guess but the best the best time the best way I see that deployed is when you can have those spin up and spin down dynamically And if they get sick, you know, you don't you don't you don't you don't care about DRS anymore at that point because It would take longer to figure out where the machine is and to move it here to back it up or restored versus just You know in in three minutes you can have one more 10 more or 50 more so the the entry point Into your company and into your apps and services are those then horizontally scaled Linux based apps right you can put you know a windows SQL clustered box on OpenStack, but you can also drive with your feet And I stole that from someone else too, but just because you can do it doesn't mean you should right so Short of it's good go for those web and app horizontal scaled workloads All right, we have like like a minute left. Does anyone have a question? Yes, sir I think we have time for one by the way, you can tweet us at pound Or hashtag OpenStack jobs, and if we don't get to your questions here, we'll answer them afterwards. Yes, sir Yes, could you Maybe give us a parallel We look at enterprise architect as a definition. We look at application architects as a definition Could you kind of give us a quick summary of how you perceive? the architect definition Between the business side and the application side, there's there's a I think there's a gap there, and I was curious what you thought I want to take that. It's a great question I'll take the first shot at it so I completely agree and the way I look at it is when it comes to because I have a background in consulting of that idea of Analyzing exactly what the business needs are first and then taking them enrolled they they determine the application Results and then that determines the infrastructure needs, etc You know it kind of all rolls downhill, but it always always always Starts with how do you serve the lines of business best whether it's to save money or move faster or get products to market faster Or prevent people from going rogue, right? Yes, exactly Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all for being here again if you want to tweet us all of us are active on Twitter You can also hashtag Open-stack jobs, and we will be happy to answer your questions. Enjoy the rest of your summit. Thank you