 Thank you for joining me as I sit down with Pastor David and Marie Rosales from Calvary Chapel, Chino Valley, as we discuss marriage, raising children, and managing difficulties that arise in the family. We're ready to begin so let's talk marriage. One of the things I'd like to talk about is lack of vulnerability. No among Christian circles there can be a lack of vulnerability which can be a major culprit in marriage challenges. What do I mean by this? Well, there seems to be a hesitancy to share when we're struggling in our marriage or a fear of being judged by others. In some circles, it's common for men and women to openly complain about their spouse which is not exactly healthy. But at least they're not pretending things are great when they're not. But within Christianity more often I see a trend towards the opposite, acting like things are totally great when actually when things are really falling apart. Sometimes we are unwilling to be vulnerable with others in our circle, even good friends, because we may not know what their reaction could be. We also sometimes think that since we're believers we should have this marriage thing all figured out. We believe that we shouldn't be struggling, therefore we don't ask for help when we need it. And this is a major mistake and a big reason why Christian marriages struggle. So my question to you both would, what are your thoughts on should we be vulnerable to others or do we keep these things that are problematic within the confines of our marriages? I think that when it comes to when I'll restart, you have to be wise who you disclose anything to. Exactly. I don't want to deposit my treasures in somebody else's treasure chest. You have to be careful who you open up to. Even Jesus did not disclose himself to all men because John tells us before he knew what was in men. So there is a wisdom in knowing who to speak to and what to say and how to go about doing that. There's a wisdom in that. Much of the problems that I've seen in marriages has been that people are making bad choices when it comes to who do I share with or if I share at all. And so they may share with people who are not really gifted and qualified or experienced with the Lord enough to see this as a spiritual challenge. And I've seen that many times over the years where they have disclosed things to people that really shouldn't have known these things and it's come back to their own hurt. So for me, I'll be honest with you and I know I should probably expand on this, but there are some things that belong to Jess Marie and me that nobody else needs to know. Nobody else needs to know just us and God. That's us. So there's that one level. And then there are things that maybe I could share with one of my buddy friends and say, you know, man, I've been having a little difficulty with this. Well, what do you do? But that person would have to be a mature person, a deeply spiritually mature person. And so when I was a newlywed growing older, I didn't have a lot of people to go to that I trusted in you. I didn't have a personal deep fellowship yet with my pastor. And so it was just me, Marie and God. And I discovered that if we're real with God and real with each other, if we're real, we can work these things out. And we did. And we did. So the friendships that we have are friendships that are not counseling friendships, right? You know, they're they're they're friendships. They're let's get some coffee. Let's go out for dinner or how you guys do. And hey, let's take a vacation together. And that's what we do. Because we worked out all of those things together. Marie and I never got to the place John not to say that others have haven't because they do and we minister to them. You do all the time. It's not that that we were perfect. God knows. You know, I hope I don't come off like that. It's that for me, my marriage meant so much plus. I'm very protective with Marie, very. There are things that are in our marriage between us that is for us. So this church knows that that my wife is like a person running for office. And I'm her campaign manager. And I'll I'll they'll ever know about my wife is the good. Because that's pretty much all I see in her. But they would never know anything. If somebody said, well, what is it about Marie that irritates you? My personal response would be, well, it's really none of your business. Now, I might I might say it in a friendly way. But I'm making you know this, I'm just saying, you know, that's we're not going to go there, you know, because I protect her, you know, I'm her covering. And I want everybody to love her. And so I'm not that guy. Neither is Marie. She's not that woman who would sit down with or with a couple and she'll say, you know, David always this and he bothers me when he does that. She's never done that. Now, that's the danger of doing. I mean, and not making fun of him, right? The slander that can come across. Yes. Where people think it's a lack of vulnerability or being vulnerable. They're really it's turned into a trashing place for their significant or their spouse. And and so that's that's good wisdom because even with my wife and I'm very careful, it would probably be you guys that would go to if something serious came down. But other than that, it's between the Lord, Livy and myself. And I've seen and you I'm sure you guys have seen all the dangers of there's nothing worse than to hear a woman disrespect her husband among other women. And to me, it's it's it's exactly right. That's something that she should keep to herself and and and pray about who she should speak to and also pray about allowing the Lord to give her love for her husband. How can she do to encourage him? Oftentimes, they're not encouraged. And they need our encouragement. Yes. And so you guys have heard these throughout the years. Yes, we've been together for many years and in ministry. You know, can you imagine the many conversations we've had over the years, John? We've had quite a number. You know, and and we're here for that. I mean, we're here to minister to help and everything. But you know what, when God speaks in and gives qualifications for the bishop used to be the husband of one wife. He used to have a solid home life. He's supposed to have eyes for one woman and his children are to be an obedience. You know, he does the best he can to raise them in the fear and knowledge of God. You sincerely do that. You're in the place where you can counsel. But if you don't, if you're putting on like you're, you know, got it together and our marriage is solid, our kids are solid. If you're putting on like that, it shows. And so for us, you know, if there's anything anybody who knows me and Marie, anybody who really knows us. I mean, I have a church that doesn't really know us. They only know what I do on a Sunday. But I have those who do know us. Anybody who knows David and Marie, where we're casual and conversing or having coffee or getting a meal, going on vacation, Randy and Jeanette Walls, Dan and Debbie Renshaw, we have friends like that. They can tell you that my number one priority as a man is this woman. They can tell you that. They know that they've seen it. They've seen it in in the times where we're just being ourselves. You know, we were walking down the street, Marie and I, and she told me, and I guess I can say this, I mentioned it the other day on Sunday in our mentoring class. But she knows that this man here, even at my age, still has an instinct, if you will, to be her shield. She knows that in a physical way, if necessary, she knows that. And we were together in a city. And I saw across the street, I saw a man who, to be honest with you, either he either he was just mentally unstable, or he was he was under the influence of some drug or something. But he really, really was I watched him as he was screaming at somebody walking a door. I saw him and he was right across the street. I saw him. And I and I so I picked that up because I'm the guy in the crowd who's walking watching everybody. That's what I do. And so later on, it's night, and Marie and I and Randy and Jeanette are walking and the girls are in front of us who call these old women girls in that bunny. Old people call each other boys and girls. But our ladies were in front of us. And I but I've got my eye out. I've always got my eyes out. I'm always I'm scanning the street to see. And it's just me. And I see this guy coming across the street in our direction. And the first thing I did is I turned to Marine or actually said to Marie, get behind me. Get behind me, girls. And they stopped and got behind Randy and me. That's what we do. Marie knows that because I think this guy I saw him he was he's he's and I'll use the word we don't use it anymore. It's probably not proper. But we used to say he's acting crazy. He was acting irrationally. He could be carrying a knife. He could he could he could he could turn on us. So who's who's supposed to protect who. And so my natural instinct has always been that get behind me, you know, and I'm just a little guy, you know, I but I'll die for this woman, right? I will, you know, she knows that. And and and Randy, Randy didn't notice what was going on. Because Randy's not me. Randy doesn't look around like I do. So Randy gets right next to me, our girls are behind us and all the guy goes in a different direction. That's what makes her know that she can safely trust me because I'm always watching out for her always. And so I know her. I respect her. And she knows that she's loved and a woman like Marie who knows how deeply she's treasured. She responds to that and treasures me so she doesn't show me disrespect. She doesn't speak ill of me to anybody. She would never do that. And if we have a problem, we work it out together. And we have over the years. And who doesn't have difficulties and problems and arguments and and feelings of whatever who doesn't. We had four babies and a miscarriage. Marie's moods would go up and down to the pregnancies, you know, and me, I've got ministry job and I've got pressures I'm living under and then to raise kids and to try and care for a church, you know, there's pressure that people don't imagine unless they're part of a ministry as a pastor and pastor's wife. We knew that we had to concentrate on who we are together. Because she I told her this, I said, you know, years ago, I said this to the church before, but I said, one day I'm not going to be going to that pulpit, I'll be retired from full time pastoral ministry. And when that happens, I don't want to have to get to know the woman I'm married to. Because there's a lot of guys who spend 35 years on the job 40 years on the job, they retire, and now they're living with a woman who doesn't know him. He doesn't know his kids. He doesn't know her because his life was occupied with his job and responsibilities and hers was occupied with being a mom or whatever things she did. And now these two strangers in the same house are trying to get along because they didn't invest in each other. They don't know each other. So I've already told Maria, I've said, you know, you're going to be driven crazy when I'm home. You know that she knows it. Because I'll say it in the morning, I'll be doing something and I'll, I'll see something and I'll throw it away or put it away. She'll go, where is this such and such? And I go, I'm your helper. I'll tell her, I'll say like that, I'm your helper. And she goes, well, helper, stop helping me because I need to know where these things are. And you put them away or you throw them away. You know, but those are the things, you know, I don't know anything. I don't know anything more valuable to a man than his wife and his kids and his grandchildren. I don't get that, you know, hobbies and things that are good. If you have one, that's great. But you know what? I just wanted to know her. And, and I'm a one woman man. My dad was and I am, you know, and she's a one man woman. And, and I'm a one woman man. My dad was and I am, you know, and she's a one man woman. So it works for us, but I think that's biblical. It's supposed to, it's supposed to. And it works when it's biblical. It'll work for those who put that effort and investment into one another. Amen. I believe pride is one of these other significant reasons why marriage is struggle. Why do we fear what other people think? Because we're proud. Why don't we want to be looked at as weak or unable to keep our marriage together? Going to get help for a medical issue? Easily done. But going for biblical guidance and counseling or marriage counseling? Oh, that's a whole different level of humility. Reaching out towards others means recognizing, no, we can't do this thing on our own. We may need help. We're not perfect. Someone once said humility is God's favorite attribute. So my question would be to you both, does pride keep many marriages, excuse me, does pride keep many from having a great marriage? Because I see this underlying thing that says we refuse to seek help either from God or from others, because we feel like we should have it all together as Christians. You know, it's pride that caused Satan to fall. And pride is a chief sin. And yeah, I would say that when somebody knows within their own heart that I need help and refuses to find it because they're not willing to be honest and to seek out those who are qualified and capable of helping them, that they're basically digging their own grave for their marriage. And so yes, pride is a chief sin. It's a disqualifying sin in ministry. And it most certainly is a chief sin in relationships. And so humility is something that the Lord, He produces in us. And it is something that He, by His Spirit, gives to us. And it is something that keeps our marriages strong. You know, the ability to say I was wrong, I'm sorry, is a very important ingredient. It really is. If you can't say that, your wife or your husband is going to suffer. And as a result, your family will suffer, your children will suffer, and your marriage will. You know, Marie can tell you that in our relationship, I had to learn to say, I'm sorry, I was wrong. Because I didn't know how to form those words at first, you know, I was a blamer. I said, well, you know, if you'd have done this, and you could have done that. But it didn't take long at all. Live with another human being you love. It doesn't take long for you to realize now if there's a problem. Well, I probably am part of it, or maybe the entire problem myself. That's why I, that's why, and I have guys in my church who have told me that they resent the way I speak to the men, like it's all them. But you know what, you know, Paul said that the glory of the man is his woman, is his wife. The glory of the man is his wife. I believe a man's real ministry is revealed by his marriage. I've always said that. Take a look at someone's marriage, you can tell. You see the ministry. You see the ministry. Yeah. That's what Paul said. You said the man is to be a lover of one woman, his children are to be under their authority. That's his ministry. And so your church is really your home. So a man who thinks he can navigate the church of God, the house of God, and to teach people when he himself is unteachable. That's why I don't trust any pastor who's always the hero in his own stories. I just do not trust him. This person's not being real. Because I don't need a hero. I have one. His name is Jesus. And I don't need a model for a husband because I had one, my dad. You know, so I never needed those things, you know, emotionally. What I need is reality. But I need his honesty. And I don't need to hear all the dirty laundry. I think it's foolish for a minister to come up and start whining about how bad things are and this and that. I think that he's not trusting God and he's not really walking in the spirit when he does that. But at the same time, don't tell me how successful you are every time I hear you. Because I'm old enough to know that you're not what you're saying you are. And so I'll lose respect for that person. So there has to be a wisdom in disclosure. But I think that if there's anything that the church world needs today, it is in terms of just the church, it is a pastor that's real. So the pastor needs to have that authenticity. But at the same time, he needs to work on the things he gives to other people. You know, my own pastor taught us, Chuck Smith taught us that the message ought to go first through your own heart before it goes to the people's hearts. And then that is true. So the Word of God sifts you as you're going through it, because anybody can give up a thrilling speech if they learn how to do it. Excuse me, but the vessels that are broken, you can hear the tear in the voice and the sorrow of the lesson. And you can see them as coming through. And this is what God will do. And I'll be sharing that, that kind of thing, even tomorrow night. Not what I'm saying exactly, but the principle where Job is being counseled by Bildad and Eliphaz. And I'm going to share with them, this is a man who hadn't done anything. God had already proclaimed him to be a man who hates evil and a righteous man. And it was all a spiritual war that got allowed to be unleashed in the life of Job. And so when you've got Eliphaz and you've got Bildad giving advice and telling them things, I point out that he sits and listens patiently. And the thing that I believe very important, I'll be saying this tomorrow in our Wednesday night study, but I believe very strongly is you need to listen to what's being said, because you may be wrong. And a lot of men aren't willing to admit that, not every man, but a lot of men aren't willing. There are others who say, oh, poor me like martyrs. I am so, I'm always wrong. No, I'm not saying that either. Don't run around crying to your wife saying how bad you are. She already knows that anyway, right? No, it's just the honest balance that you need to have. And so Marie knows the warts as well as the trophies in my life. She knows that. She knows that. And yeah, I'm not a perfect man. And I don't say that lightly. I would like to be better than I am. She knows that. And sometimes I'm harder on myself than I should be. She knows that. And I'm not a perfect woman. We work together. We work together. She's to me. Yes, you guys are shewied to me. As you're sharing this, if you were to think back to all the experiences that you've had speaking with other couples, and from a woman's perspective and from a male's perspective, have you seen pride in both sides? Or is it typically just, and if so, how does it, how have you seen it manifest with the woman and the man? You want to answer that baby? Well, not really. Well, I think, well, complain, complain after complaint from the woman. He doesn't do this. He doesn't do that. He doesn't kind of a tearing down of her husband. I've heard that constantly, constantly. And you can ask, well, what are you doing to help this? How are you doing? I mean, you keep complaining about him. And that's not getting you anywhere. What can you do to encourage your husband? And one of the things I think is a real solution, John, I really do, is choosing to have healthy relationships with friends and outsiders. Because fellowship helps you, especially when you're going through struggles and stuff. One, you don't need to go out for coffee with people and always tell them, she doesn't this and she doesn't that. And he hasn't this and he won't do that. Because who wants to go out with you a second time? He has draining. Yeah, he wants to go a second time. But for me, I think for me, I've always used men as models in a sense of saying, Oh, I admire that. I like the way they did that. So as even as a young man, I was the guy who had looked and see who could be the best influence to help me be a better man. You know, I had a great model, my father, he really was very patient. And he became a loving, very loving man. He wasn't at first. After he got saved, his whole life changed. And my dad became a warm, loving man. And everybody in this church, who knew my dad, knew my dad was that way. Everyone knew my dad that way, because that's what he became. He wasn't that way when I was young. He became that. So my dad was a model to me of transformation. And I used to tell him, Marie, I'd say, you see how he caters to my mom, because my mom was ill with such terrible illnesses. And, and, and daddy would take care of her. And, and, and I saw that. I saw that very, very, my dad literally laid his life down for that woman, literally laid his life down for her. He died caring for my mother. That was my dad. And so that's my model. I mean, you can improve on that. And so I have looked at other men that I admire. And now, and I see the tenderness that they may show or their willingness to hear or whatever quality I am lacking in. And I say to myself, I want that. I want to be that man. And, and so you learn from others. So I didn't have, I didn't have to say to someone, could you mentor me to be a good husband? I didn't do that. I just chose who I hung around with and who influenced me. And, and then I said to myself, I want to be that man. I want to be that man. When Marie and I married John, this is such, this is a very, it's a key. When Marie and I married, we did not say we will not make it. We did not say that. When we married, it is for life. It is one marriage for one lifetime together. Until death. That was our vow. I'm not going to lie to God. I'm going to stay faithful to this woman. And if I really loved her the day I married her, why wouldn't I love her now? If I really loved her, and I learned what love was over the years of, of the disappointments and the hurts and, and the struggles and everything that, that, that young marrieds go through, we went through everything. I mean, to having no, no money, you know, to have nothing material, it feel like you're a failure because you can't provide to having small children, you know, and we say with Christ, we can do it and we will because we loved each other. But it was through the struggles for me that brought encouragement. And I am, I'm thankful for those struggles, John. I really am. We needed those struggles to be encouraged and, and to see what the Lord had in store for our lives. We did. It was, those were good times. They were good. They were tough, but there were good times because we meet struggles in our, we do need those struggles to, so God can show us what he's all about and how he can use us to, for his glory. And there's a story that we all know about the young, young guy who was walking by a plant and he saw a caterpillar struggling and, and he noticed that, that butterfly was coming out. And so as he was watching it, it was emerging from, from that state. And so he took some, some scissors and he, he clipped it and made it easier for the butterfly to come out. And, and when it came out, it's, its body was filled with fluid and the wings were very small and it died. And so he told somebody, what he had done, he had said, I, I freed a butterfly from, you know, it's trap, you know, it was emerging and they said, you killed it. And he said, what do you mean I killed it? They said that it requires it to come out and that restricted chamber so that the fluids can be pressed into the wings so that the wings can form so it can fly. And by releasing it from that struggle, you caused it to die. You took away its ability to fly. That's what you did. So Marie and I for the longest time have known that we're emerging, that we go through pressures, but that God will use those to form us into what he wants us to be. And we know that. So instead of avoiding them and trying to clip it so we have no difficulty, it's the difficulties that have made me love this woman through thick and thin, for better or for worse, for sickness and in health. Those are the things we said until death do us part. That's, that's what our oath was, right? So why would I try and escape from the thing that God is using to form me into the man I pray to be? Why would I? And so my girl here has the same heart. So she's saying, I want to be this person. And I'm saying, I want to be this person. And so that's why Marie, and you've heard her say this more than once, she says the struggles because for her she values those things. She really does. I do. I'm thankful to God for I do. See, this is amazing to hear this because people may think it's a mindset. It's not, it's a heart set. It's something you guys from the out, from the out ghosts, from the get ghosts saying, we are going to make it. Absolutely. Because I think sometimes when people go through a struggle, they think it's the tell all and all. It's going to fall apart, not realizing that it's a heart set saying, we're going to get through these. And it's the struggle with the butterfly coming out of the cocoon. It's actually forming it to survive. And I think that's an amazing thing that people who are married need to hear this because a lot of times I think the struggle is, we're falling apart. Well, yeah, we may feel like it during that time. But when you hear your point of view of it, going through it, that it's been the greatest, some of the greatest times in your life is because you guys had the heart set to do it and to make it through. There's a place in Ireland that makes the best walking canes. Like I don't need one yet, but maybe one day I will, right? But in Ireland, there's this particular place that makes the best walking canes. And a fellow was buying one from the shopkeeper and he asked him, he said, where did you get this wood? This wood is amazing. It's so hard. It's so strong. So beautiful. He says, oh, on the coast, there's a bluff. And there are these kinds of trees will grow on that. And these trees suffer the harshest winters and the coldness. And it's just, it's just nothing can live there except these trees. And these trees are very hardy. And it's these trees, the ones that have suffered so much, have gone through so much to make the best walking sticks. And so I've often, I've heard that story many, many years ago. And the point obviously is this is you go through and you endure afflictions and tough, tough time struggles, but it hardens you, strengthens you. It makes you into what you want it to be. And that's what marriage struggles have done for us. Yeah. There's nothing like it, John, you know this, there's, there's nothing like wishing you could buy your wife a meal and you can't or wish you could buy some shoes for your children, but you don't have the money. There's nothing like it that makes you appreciate and love them even more. And that's, that's what happened with me. Wishing I could do but being content with what I am and have and learning what really matters. And so when I, when I got my feet on the ground planted firmly on what really does matter, everything else that the Lord has blessed me with over the years has found its place, the place it's supposed to be in. I can, I value those things because we know how to have plenty and how to have nothing, but we've always had him and each other. And that's in the end, in the end you take nothing with you, nothing. You always put it ahead, but you take nothing with you. And so I have decided that when my children give my eulogy, which they will someday, when my wife is there and I'm no longer here, she will not regret being married to me. She will not. You know, and that's my, that's my goal. She'll always have a heart for one man, which she does. And I have a heart for one woman. That's the way it works. And when you set your sights on those kinds of things, and with Jesus, how can we not, how can we not win? And we have, we are. We may never see the struggles that you guys endured early on as a couple. The church may never know those things, the things that were difficult, but the church can know from those struggles the beautiful marriage that has been blessed by keeping God centered in. My wife has held me in her arms as I've wept more than once, John, more than once. And it's tied us together. That hit me. Well, thank you guys. I mean, there's a couple more things we can probably get this next time, but thank you guys so much for your transparency and for sharing with us practical things to help us get through challenges in our marriages. And what an example you both have been to our church and to my, personally to my marriage. So I hope my wife's listening because you need to learn a lot. Just don't blame us for what you got. So thank you guys and God bless you. Thanks again for tuning in. Let's Talk Marriage is a ministry of Calvary Chapel, Chino Valley. If you've enjoyed this video, then please like and share it. We will see you again next week on another episode of Let's Talk Marriage.