 Hello, and welcome to Mina, Marco, and me. I am Raya Salter, energy attorney, subbing in for J. Fidel today. And today we're going to have a conversation with Mina Morita, former chair of the Hawaii Public Utilities Commission, about perspectives on reaching 100% renewable energy. Of course, Mina really requires no introduction. Hello, Mina. Say hello to everyone. Hi, Raya. Good to talk to you. Very good to talk to you as well. So we all know that Hawaii has a very ambitious 100% renewable energy by 2045 goal. It's exciting. I think folks across the country are excited about what that could potentially mean. But I think there's some real practical issues now as we move into trying to see that vision realized of how are we going to do that? How are we going to figure this out? So I'm so glad, Mina, that you're here to speak with us today about these important issues. Thank you for having me, and it's an important discussion that's going on. It's really easy to come up with a sound bite to support a clean energy future. But the devil's in the details as we move forward. And so we really have to have this discussion on the practical considerations. I couldn't agree. I'm sorry, please finish your point, Mina. No, no, I just, you know, we have to have this discussion moving forward to, you know, to educate people on this is not an easy task. And it's a task where we have to stay on track for several decades. You know, I wouldn't agree. I mean, I absolutely agree. So how about we, we just go ahead and start talking about it. I always think it's really exciting for me to be able to talk to, you know, some of really the key people who know the most about the most about the state and the most about sort of what needs to be done in this context. So I'm certainly doing that here and now. So why don't I just open up, Mina, what do you think are some of the real practical issues that need to be addressed and looked at in order to achieve Hawaii's energy goals? Well, I think, you know, one of the most important things is, first of all, it's not just about renewable energy. It's not just about generation. We're talking about the transformation of a whole system and taking a systems of approach. And when we take that approach, you know, we really have to be aware of the cost impact, equity issues, system stability, and even moving towards more of a focus on the resiliency of the electric grid and really being aware that this grid is a critical public infrastructure. We're so reliant, especially in this digital age and age of information on electricity. So stability and resiliency are really key issues. Actually, let me go ahead and follow up and ask you to dig in a little deeper on the stability and resiliency in particular. I know that we've just learned that the Honolulu, I think, has staffed its office, has now has a chief resiliency officer. I think Josh Standbro, formerly the Hawaii Community Foundation, and I know that that's been funded by the Rockefeller Foundation or potentially funded by Rockefeller. There seems, do you think that there is an emphasis on resiliency and maybe you could help people understand what climate change and resiliency in the grid, how those things kind of come together and why they're important? In my view, as we move forward in, during a time where we face a changing climate, but there's so much uncertainty out there, and in a way to deal with this uncertainty is to look at resiliency issues, you know, how quickly are we able to innovate, adapt and flexible to ensure that these critical services come back online. So basically, you know, adaptability, flexibility, and innovation as we move forward to be as resilient as possible. What are some of the ways that utility can become more resilient or say a commission can help guide a utility towards being resilient? Is it sort of looking at certain questions or what are some of your thoughts and ideas there? Well, you know, in a way, this is where Michael Grid might play a role. You know, how can you isolate different parts of the grid, especially for critical services, to operate independently from the grid when the grid is being stressed or threatened and then be able to come back on. So, micro-gridding is important. This is where distributed energy resources may play an important role. All right, I think that's, I think that's very interesting. I know folks know that I moved here from the New York City area not that long ago, and Hurricane Sandy that, you know, created this blackout in New York City really kind of put people on alert to start thinking about, you know, more resilient infrastructure broadly. And it's just, and these conversations continue. However, hopefully we don't need catastrophe to keep us on track. And it sounds like Hawaii is taking some affirmative steps, and I think that's great. So, what do you think is the best way for Hawaii to move towards, you know, to achieve some of these goals? I know, I mean, you talked about resiliency and you've broken it down in terms of other important issues, equity, reliability, et cetera. But what do you think, you know, how does, what are some of the ways for the state to tackle some of this stuff going forward? Well, I think, you know, this is why the PSIP and several key documents in the, in the PDC are really important, because it's really about the utility planning and, and how do we move forward? And my personal feeling is that we really need a no-regret strategy and understand why we need a no-regret strategy, because we need some foundational things to be done to move forward. And while everybody may have, well, not everybody, but where many people might have their ideas set on the sexy technologies out there, what we really need are some foundational stuff to modernize the grid. And, you know, to me, that's all part of a no-regret strategy as we build this infrastructure. So, you know, there are a lot of uncertainties out there, you know, given advancing technology, changing customer preferences. So, how do we take, you know, our limited sources of funding, you know, public funds or rate-payer funds, and look at the minimum investment needed at this time to give us the biggest bang for a buck to achieve efficiency and productivity? And I think there's three objectives that we have to accomplish. One is to manage and even lower customer bills, achieve lower CO2 emissions, and maintain the grid's reliability, and actually there's four issues to the fourth one being equity again. Don't worry, you don't have any li- this is your show. You can talk about as many issues as you want. But you know what, you know, and as some folks out there might know, I host a show called Power Up Hawaii, which is about a clean and renewable and just energy future. So, you hit upon the stuff that I definitely care about, and may as well talk a little about what do you, about the importance or the need or the possibility of having bill reductions for folks who pay the highest rates in the country. And what equity means when you mention that, if you could speak to those two things? Okay, so I think, you know, well first of all, even though Hawaii has made great strides in incorporating just through the generation, mainly roofed out solar into the system, you know, that we're only benefiting about 25% of the white electric customer base. On Oahu, you know, at least 75% of the customers still rely on the utility for all of its power needs. And with the amount of roofed out solar coming into the system, you know, what you have is a cost shift going on with most of the costs being borne by the non-roofed up customers. So that's what I mean by equity issues, that, you know, you really should pay for the services that you receive from the grid and be paid fairly for services that you give back to the grid. And we're net nearing, you know, started off really as an early adoption policy. And now that, you know, we're moving forward, we really should look at how the cost of operating, maintaining the grid is equally borne by all customers. Go ahead. Sorry. No, no, I didn't mean to cut you off. I was going to say, you know, I wanted to thank you for your thoughts. And I know as someone who's been an environmental advocate that this has been controversial issues, sometimes pitting utilities against energy industry, against consumer advocates, and it's nothing new. However, I think exactly what you stated is an act of sort of a post-net metering conversation is a conversation ablaze across the entire country, including Hawaii. Exactly. And, you know, when I talk about the ability to manage or even lower customer bills, as we move forward, we have to make huge investments in modernizing the grid. And the only way to moderate that impact on the customer is looking at how can we also lower bills at the same time as we make this new investment into the grid. And if you look at a customer's bill, a big portion of that bill deals with fuel costs. And while there's a lot of focus on renewable energy, and, you know, granted, renewable sources are many times on par and sometimes even below par of fossil resources. But rather than just focusing on renewable generation, it has to be a broader perspective as to what kinds of fuels can move us towards a no carbon future. But cost-wise, it's very, it will be a high cost just to jump to a no carbon future. So what are the intermediate steps and investments that need to be done to help lower costs, lower emissions, carbon emissions, and, again, give that grid stability and reliability? All right. Well, thank you, Mina. That is going to take us into our break. So we are going to be right back with you with Raias Halter sitting in for Jay Fidel on Mina, Marco, and me. Aloha, Kako. I'm Marcia Joyner, inviting you to navigate the journey with us. We are here every Wednesday morning at 11 a.m., and we really want you to be with us where we look at the options and choices of end of life care. Aloha. Aloha. This is Gordell the Texer here at Iwachi Talk. I want to thank you guys for joining us every week from one o'clock in the afternoon to 1.30 Hawaii time where we talk about tech. But this year we're kind of branching out and we're talking about all other interesting kinds of facts and figures. And Andrew, my security guy, will be joining us as he always is, giving us a weekly security tip. And we will also then have Angus giving us some gadgets and some things that's really starting to irritate his okole. So we're going to have him coming out as well. Anyway, Drew, do you have anything you want to say? Glad to be here, man. Happy to help. There we go. Thanks again. Iwachi Talk. We'll see you soon. Hello and welcome back to Mina, Marco, and me. This is Raya Salter, energy attorney sitting in for Jay Fidel, who will be back with you guys next week. So we are here with Mina Merida. We've been talking about issues and the sort of next steps for how we're going to get to 100% renewable energy and why it's important. So we were just talking about some of the key sort of implementation steps that need to happen next. So I wanted now to ask Mina, there's been a tremendous amount of talk about quote unquote new utility business models in terms of, and I think especially here in Hawaii, people kind of have a gut understanding. Like they understand that there's an incumbent utility. They understand that somehow, you know, when people put their own energy on their roofs, that that sort of is taking a potential customer away from the utility. So there's, you know, there's a lot of talk about it. There's a lot of people are trying to figure out what's going on. So I wanted to ask you, what is a utility business model, and what are some of the models in place in the state of Hawaii? Well, I think there's a little bit of confusion when discussing business model, because I think people tend to mix up business model with ownership model. And, especially in the last legislative session, when the next era eco merger was being discussed, there was a lot of talk about ownership model, who owns the utility? Is that an investor owned utility, a cooperative, or a municipal? What's the best model out there? And to me, that's up for GP. And then, go ahead. Go ahead, Grace. I think it's really helpful for you to sort of, to lay out sort of the, you know, this is a business model, and this is an ownership model. I think that's, that's excellent. So yeah, I think you laid out, you know, what, you know, is it a cooperative? Is it a investor owned? And then what, you know, I guess my question is, what then do you think is a business model? And I suspect that those things get intertwined a little bit, or perhaps not. I, you know, in my personal opinion, I don't think the ownership model is incumbent on the business model. I mean, whether, whether it's an IOU, a co-op, or a municipal, they probably have to operate the same, and, and they all face the same kinds of issues in trying to address transformation. Got it. I think that, I think that makes sense. And actually, and I think, and I think in talking about business model, you know, really it is about exactly what you're talking about is how will the utilities face transformation. What are some of your, what are some of your thoughts about that? Yeah. So, you know, when you're looking at the business model, what you're really talking about is the structure of the business organization. And I think it's kind of across the board, you know, kind of a generic meaning, you know, what's its primary purpose? What are its operational goals to meet its primary purpose? You can break it down to their function, product services, who is their customer, and what's their sources of revenue and, and financing. And so when we're talking about transforming the electric utility, I think basically what you're talking about is electric, the electric utility is no longer a linear function. It's no longer about generating electricity and delivering it to the end user. And what you're really talking about is evolving into not a pipeline, but a platform. And how do you, how do you embrace all of these different functions of the utility to really be customer focus, where all the action is in the transaction of buying and selling electricity, rather just the generation and the delivery, and, and managing all these anticipated networks that are happening in on, on the grid. So basically moving from a linear function where you're just moving electrons in one direction to a platform where you're facilitating all of these different transactions where electrons move in multiple directions. Can I say that I have been involved in platform conversations for a long time, and that was one of the more simple and easy understand and succinct descriptions of it that I've ever heard. So thank you very, very much. The electrons really work for me. Or the one that I've used before is, you know, before it used to be a one-way road for the electric utility, you know, again, electrons just moving in one direction. Now you have a whole interstate highway system where, where the cars are moving in multiple directions for many different purposes. I think that one is also very good. And I have, anyway, I think it's great. I've tried to, I've tried pictures, I've done all kinds of stuff. So I'm gonna, I hope you don't mind, I'm gonna borrow that one in the future. So do you think that, Hawaii needs new business models? And if so, what kind? Yeah. You know, I, there was this quote, I think his name is Carl Shapiro, and I forget where he teaches that, but it really put it into perspective for me. He said the difference between the old economy and the new economy is the old economy was driven by economies of scale. And the new, and the new economy is driven by economies of network. And that is really profound because we, you know, I feel like traditionally those of us who, you know, been economic students and, you know, been thinking about the energy industry were very, very used to that discussion about the economy of scale, especially as it, as it, you know, affects, you know, energy and building big power plants and what that meant, you know, Tesla versus Edison and AC and DC and all that good stuff. But now you're talking about, when I hear you say the economy of networks, at first I'm like, hmm, but then I, I mean, gosh, you know, no one can, even though it's not the same industry, but no one can, can deny the power of, of LinkedIn, of Facebook, of, of networks. So gosh, what do you think that means? So I think, you know, basically it's like, if you're looking, I mean, all business models now need to be innovative, flexible, adaptive, very adaptive and resilient, doctor resiliency, you know, to face all this technical, technological advancement and uncertainty out there, you know, nothing is static anymore. And so, you know, the next part of this big transformation is, you know, really finding the right leadership that can handle this, this new environment that we, that we work in. Maybe you could, maybe you could speak a little bit to that because I think that's an incredible, that's sort of an incredible angle. And in general, it's, you know, as an advocate, it did not default anyone, but it's because, you know, we love technology, we love our machines, we love electricity, we love dealing with it and analyzing it and talking about it. But quite often, what's really the most important ingredient to all of this is people. So, yeah, you know, tell us what you mean by that a bit in terms of who are the leaders, who are the people. We know it's going to be young people in the young generation at some point, but, you know, why is that important? Well, I think right now, you know, with the amount of information that's being generated, you know, the age of big data now and how quickly information can be processed, you know, you have to be able to have leadership out there, first of all, to know what to do with this information. And once they get this information, you know, how do you act, you know, and then how do you measure your progress? So, to me, that's the critical element as we move forward in Hawaii, that, you know, you have leadership that can process information and move to decision making in a timely way. I think that's super interesting. I know that in Europe, as we've had these sort of new utility business model discussions, there's been a lot of attention to models in Europe, one of them is, you know, RIIO or Rio. And one of the hallmarks of that European discussion is very robust metrics that help evaluate, you know, that really sort of are intended to guide the decision making process and very rigorously evaluating plans and trying to provide some guidance. Of course, you can't plan everything, but certainly I think the Europeans are putting some emphasis on that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it's more of an emphasis on performance based, you know, that in order to be adaptable and flexible, you have to give a framework and you have to be clear about the outcomes that you want. And then, you know, you're pretty much relying on the utility to give you that outcome without being so prescriptive. Because I think once you get into prescription, you take away the flexibility and the ability to adapt. All right. Well, I think we've got just a few more seconds left, so I want to give you the last word, Mina. How do you think in that short period of time, how can the folks in Hawaii expect to benefit from more renewable energy if done correctly? Well, I think, yeah, I think if done correctly, hopefully what the customer will experience is more stable energy pricing. And then, again, we're taking positive steps towards a low or no carbon future. All right. Well, thank you. Oh, I think that's about it for our time. Thank you so much, Mina. Signing off, Raya Salter in for Jay Fidel and Mina Marco and me. Thank you so much, Aloha.