 Back to Think Tech, I'm Jay Fiedel. This is Hawaii, if you didn't know it, the state of clean energy. Who are we? Well, the handsome young man at the bottom of the screen is Mitch Ewan. He's my co-host on the show. And the pretty lady is Nina Wu. She is a reporter for the Star Advertiser. And, you know, I was telling her before the show is we all should really appreciate our reporters, especially our local reporters, so important to us. Welcome both of you guys to the show. Thank you. Hello, hot Jay, thanks. So we have a two-part show. Nina, one part is energy and especially electric vehicles, which you wrote about recently, and because that's part of your beat. And can you summarize your article? It was a little bit of a dismay because it sounds like, although we talk the talk, we don't walk the walk. What do you think? Right, right. Well, for a lot of the EV owners out there, you know, it's unfortunately the perks that they used to have, the free parking at the airport, free parking at meters and municipal and state lots. That all came to the end on June 30. But, you know, even though the number of EV vehicles are growing in the islands, actually surprisingly they grew during the time of the pandemic. From March until now, the numbers are on the rise. But even then, it's only about 1% of all the vehicles here. So I think those incentives were really important. Well, you know, we don't have a state tax credit. I'm not sure how long the federal credit has lasted or it will last. And I love dogs, by the way, I want to be a little bit clearer about that. I guess you do too. I love dogs. And so, you know, what are we doing to incentivize them? I mean, I think this is like, it's one of those cars where you turn off the gas and it keeps on going. But how long is it gonna go? It's not gonna go that long. So yeah, we may have some increase in electric vehicles on the road, but still, as you say, it's 1%. Is the state doing what it can do? I mean, we seem to be diminishing our incentives, not increasing them. What message are we sending by having zero incentives now? Yeah, I think, you know, we did kind of have a informal reader poll and it did seem as if most of the people felt that those perks should end. So there's always sort of this, maybe this sort of a resentment, oh, you've got an EV and you get to park for free, you know, and but, you know, maybe there needs to be a better understanding and there needs to be more accessibility as well as more incentives for people to invest in the EVs because we're all trying to reach our goal, right? Of 100% renewables by 2045. So, I mean, yeah, I myself was on the market for an EV, although, you know, of course right now, most people were not driving a whole lot and that's the other side of this. So, you know, maybe there, you know, those incentives should be looked at again. And, you know, they could have been in a different form, maybe, you know. Well, so it's about leadership, isn't it? You know, I have to say that I have to admit, I will admit that my wife and I watch more television now that we used to watch. And on television, you know, on every channel on cable, which we pay for, we get ads, okay? We get tons of ads. And there are only two kinds of ads. I'll tell you what they are. One is for all the medicines. Get prescription drugs you never heard of, which are probably very expensive, which you're supposed to tell your doctor about. That's one kind. And the other kind is car ads. Tons and tons and tons of car ads. And guess what? No electric vehicle car ads, zero zip. And I, you know, what kind of message is that? We're not getting any strong signal, any signal at all from government or for that matter from the dealerships saying we should buy this. We're getting it from you. We're getting it from Mitch. He likes hydrogen cars. But we're not. Okay, thank you. I'll get one. How many hydrogen cars are there in the state? Not very many, probably about 10 or 15 or so through a Servco with a Marai, which is an awesome car. And they support it. They have their own hydrogen station there. And the least fee is pretty reasonable. And it includes all your hydrogen for 12,000 miles a year. So I don't want to give out any numbers in case I'm not giving you the right information. But speaking of Servco, there were two articles that came around on these Star Advertiser newsfeed today. One was, what's a Star Advertiser? I think so. One was that there was a rumor that Servco sold a substantial piece of property to Amazon. And the second was, yes, it actually did was not a rumor, it was serious, but the price was not disclosed. The takeaway, of course, is that we're gonna have Amazon right here and probably in a big warehouse processing facility right here in the middle of the city. That's news, that's important. Anyway, so you have any comment on that about the messaging? What can we do specifically? Shouldn't the governor be saying something? Well, I think that they could do a little bit more. I do understand that right now the pandemic and coronavirus seems to be at the forefront as well as travel. But it could be part of the conversation, especially about how we can rethink our economy, how tourism, it's a very tourism driven economy. And obviously that was hurt a lot of people here, more than 240,000 filing for unemployment. So it's not gonna happen overnight, but it might be part of the conversation about what can we do to reshape our revitalized economy and maybe the energy part of the puzzle could play a role in that. Oh, I totally agree. I mean, we're in a time of re-imagining our lives and COVID has affected everything. And when we come out the other side, like it or not, our lives are gonna be different. So we might as well think about all these things and bundle them together because at the other side of the tunnel, it's not gonna be just COVID, it'll be everything. All of those deferred issues we're gonna have to deal with them, including energy. So I wanna sort of get off the box for a minute and let Mitch ask you some questions about energy in the general context. He's probably gonna ask you about hydrogen too, yeah. Oh, maybe not that, I don't wanna be. Yeah, but Nina, so you're out and about, you're interviewing people on energy. What's the feeling you get about how important is energy to people or do they just accept it as like, oh yeah, a turn on the light is no big deal. It's not really front and center in their lives. How important is energy actually to our local citizens, do you think? I think it becomes important once it becomes personal, once it hits you in your pocketbook. So with everybody staying at home right now or staying at home a lot more, a lot of people working from home and soon learning from home, I think people are going to, people are gonna care once they see their electricity bills and once it hits their pocketbook. I think that does matter a lot. Fortunately, Hawaiian Electric is not, is suspending any disconnection for the time being so that nobody gets left in their home without electricity but I think that people will start to care once they see an electricity bill go up. For those who have solar, it's definitely going to help, especially right now because it's hot and everybody kind of needs the AC. Yeah, so just as a follow-up question on that. So how important is renewable energy? Like we have these goals to be totally decarbonized by 2045 and you're going around talking to people once again, is that an issue for them? Do they even care about, is that a driver for them? Or as long as they can turn on the lights and drive their car, whatever. How do they feel about renewable energy and decarbonizing our economy? Once again, I think it's something that becomes more personal once it affects you somehow. I think there's a small segment of the people who of course, they're really into getting off the fossil fuels. They're concerned about climate change and they're concerned for the future generations but that's only a very, very small percentage, I think, of the population. I think for most people, maybe sitting at the kitchen table, the conversation might be are the hurricane storms going to be worse this year? Is it something I need to worry about? Are the trade winds going to be impacted in the long term or over the long term? And those are the kinds of things that I think will matter to people. Or it might be like, oh, if you can afford a solar PV system and your own storage, you could really lower your electricity bill and it could really, really help you out. Things are, I think, more personal but I think as far as the overall conversation on climate change, it's really a really small percentage and I think even some of the folks that are buying electrical vehicles, it's because they wanna save money and they don't wanna have to keep on buying gas because even though gas prices are going down, we still have the highest prices here, I think, compared to other places on the mainland. So I think things like that that are more at a personal level could probably matter. And then maybe there's more of a conversation about what does this mean? What is renewable energy? And well, why does that matter over the long term? And why does it matter for a place like Hawaii where we have to import everything and where we have to rely so much on fuel imported here? So just raises a whole array of questions that go beyond energy and actually more into COVID, I wanna cover. And that is this, the people around the table who are waiting for lower gas prices, lower electric bills, they're in it for themselves. That's their personal issue. As you say, it touches them and their pocketbook personally. And the same thing with COVID, people are touched by wearing a mask may help them stay alive. Social distancing may keep them away from the infection. And so this is a dichotomy between what saves me, what is in my personal and my family's interest and what saves the community? Because in both of these cases, energy and COVID, there's this dichotomy. So I wanna move a little to that and ask you about how people are feeling about the community concerns over COVID. I'm not sure we've had good messaging on that one either. And I think people are only touched by it when they're scared of dying. But the question is, are they concerned about the community in general? Are they doing social distancing to protect themselves? Or are they doing social distancing to protect others? And how can we fix that? I think it's a great parallel, just like you said, it's a long-term problem and issue and it's not gonna go away all on its own. It's gonna be there and it's something that we need to address over a long-term because the governor often likes to say it's a marathon, not a sprint. So I think that there are a lot of parallels there. And like I said, I think on a large scale, of course everybody's gonna say yes, my spirit of aloha, I wanna wear that mask so that I can protect my community and everything. But it's maybe not gonna hit as close to home as your friend just got tested positive or somebody in your family tested positive and actually went through this whole scary experience. Of course, yes, everybody is concerned about it, but I think it doesn't really hit home until somebody you know. And I think though there was a survey recently and there is a pretty big percentage of folks that know someone or know someone that knows somebody who tested positive. And so maybe that's when it really hits home, but yes, you're right. I think the messaging should have been there in the beginning and it needed to be consistent and it needed to be really specific. I mean, maybe very specific in situations like what if you are gonna have a gathering of 10 at your house, you still wanna practice social distancing because you're 10 people representing maybe 10 different households and exposure to different places. Unfortunately, the CDC, they weren't consistent about the face masks from the very beginning. Initially they said we don't need to have that. And I think the key part of that was that, apparently now they say that there are a lot of people who are asymptomatic that are infected and now we've come out and that's very clear. But if they had said that from the beginning, maybe it would have helped. And like you said, that could be the same too with our initiative for clean energy as well. If from the very beginning we set out our goals and outlined exactly what the steps are to get them. I'll follow up question. Go ahead. Follow up question. So you see these stories of all the younger community going to beach parties and the bars and not giving two rats about any of this stuff. So my question is getting back to the basics. Are we teaching our children in our schools and at home but let's look at the school about personal responsibility and their personal ethics? Or is that a gap? And it applies to both the energy side and to the health side. So like, are we providing them with a fundamental education? Like they do in Japan, I understand. Like the first three years of their schooling, they learn about personal responsibility and taking care of each other rather than just me, me, me. So are we getting the right messages across? I think some are and some aren't. But of course, some people are just struggling right now and we do need to remember that. They're just struggling to get by doing their best or even trying to get food on the table. So some are and some aren't. I have seen some youth who've taken a lot of initiative and who do care a lot both about this pandemic as well as about climate change. So we've seen leaders, a lot of young leaders here in Hawaii as well who've spearheaded movements and some rallies. And so I think that some are and some aren't. And maybe we need to integrate that into our education system. I mean, I think there are some efforts to do that, but we have to remember too that we need to work harder for those that are disadvantaged and just struggling to get by right now. You've written about, I'm not sure the right word, the event most recently on Calico Avenue in Waikiki and other events where young people go, I guess it's mostly young people, but not only young people. And they go in a spirit of enthusiasm, but they don't wear masks and they're huddled together, which is nice for social engagement, but not so good for a pandemic. And actually it reminds me of Tulsa. It reminds me of some of those gatherings in Florida, Fort Lauderdale and other places. It reminds me of some of those other gatherings in the South which where people were influenced by Trump and they were trying to reopen it at an early time and everybody gets together and they all infect each other. I mean, we looked at this. I mean, I'm sure we all looked at this a month ago and said, whoa, we're gonna be in for it. All those people breathing in each other and sure enough, it's happened. And so the question is, the people on Kalakaua right here in Hawaii who should know better, why don't they wear masks? So I think maybe, so I think you're talking about the Kalakaua Open Street events in Waikiki where they just limited the street to let people stroll and bike on it. So on one hand, that's for climate change, that's a great thing because we're encouraging more people to walk and bike and to get away from the cars. And here during this pandemic, there's a great opportunity to do that. So yes, that on one hand is a great opportunity. On the other hand, maybe there should be more caution about wearing the mask when there are so many people. So I was, I have not actually been to one of those events. I love biking, but I just bike around my own neighborhood. So, you know, but I, it did sound like an innovative program. So maybe the messaging there should have been where if there is gonna be a crowd and you think you're going to be in close proximity to others that are outside of your household then you might wanna try to put on a mask. However, there's some confusion. There's a lot of confusion over the fast face mask mandate. Apparently you don't have to wear it when you're doing outdoor exercise activities. So if you're out jogging, running, hiking, walking the dog you don't have to wear one. And so I think, you know, in general because it's an outside activity that bike activity was, you know, is supposed to be safe. However, if too many people are in close proximity then they should be, you know, have the messaging and be wearing the mask just for safety as well. And maybe just for safety sake. And so at that, at that pace you probably will wanna just do a leisurely ride and, you know, you won't be going very fast. But I think with that many people there of people probably won't be going that fast. So maybe it would be a good idea for more of those people to just wear a mask, you know, to be on the safe side if they wanna participate in something like that. So, you know, and so it's been interesting because I've seen a couple of different stories out there about the protests for Black Lives Matter that occurred a while ago and there was a lot of criticism about that. But I think there have been some stories that have come out that said, you know what? Surprisingly, there were not a lot of positive cases that came out of that because people were wearing their masks. And so that was really one key part of it is how careful people are in when they participate in a group activity like that. How well they practice physical distancing, how well they practice the mask wearing. But the mask wearing apparently is one of the real keys to helping to reduce the spread of this respiratory disease. So. Yeah. Mitch, you had something? I just had on me, I've got helicopters and planes flying overhead here. Yeah, I wanna talk a little bit more about the fossil fuel industry. So we've talked about renewables and clean energy and electric vehicles. You know, what's your view of the fossil fuel industry here in Hawaii, particularly our refineries and also Hawaii gas. Hawaii gas has been mandated to decarbonize. That's not gonna be a very easy thing to do for them. So because they sell SNG, so apparently the only alternative really is either renewable gas, which still has carbon in it or hydrogen over my right shoulder there. So and aircraft are still gonna be using avgas for quite a long time. I mean, they all run on gas turbines. So what are your thoughts or have you had any stories on what's going on with our fossil fuel industry here in Hawaii? I mean, the gas question, it's gonna be, it's a difficult conversation, but it's probably a conversation that needs to be had. And it's not easy. As far as fossil fuels, yes. I mean, if we are going to, if we are going to aim towards our 100% renewable goals, then we do need to look at renewables. And I think if you saw recently, we had a story about a major project of some solar farm proposals. I believe it was, oh, it was about, it was 12 different projects that would cover more than 3000 acres on three different islands here. So that's huge. That's a significant generation. But however, it's not that simple because you need to have community engagement. You need to have a public input on where those sites are. And as if you've seen, some of our wind farms ended up being really controversial and those ended up being scrapped. So, I mean, I think that we've already set our goal for renewable energy, but it's gonna take a while to get there and we need to look at some of these alternatives. This is all very, it comes together. I'll tell you why I think that is we're in a crisis and we're remaking ourselves and we'd better do that because in every day we have 29, 30, 40 cases and our numbers are going up as they are on the mainland. Our supply lines are being stretched. I think people right now, they have the comfort of going down a safe way and being able to buy food or lungs and buy medicine that may not last forever. You know that if you follow the economy, it's declining in the state. We spoke with Allison Schaffers. It's not great in tourism right now and nobody knows when we come out the other side and so it's a time to be introspective as a community. It's a time to think about how we can do better on COVID and follow the rules and get good standards in place but it's also a time to think about all those other issues. I mean, for example, we need to reduce the cost of energy and in effect, my information is we are. There are things in the pipeline now that will reduce the cost of energy in the state, including hydrogen. And so, the thing about it is that this is a time when you want the government to look at policy. You're ready for new ideas, new re-imaginations but the legislature didn't, may I say this? I maybe have a different view, I'd like to hear it. Legislature really didn't do anything this year on any of the issues that we follow. Maybe they did something on issues you follow but I think the legislature really left it in the road and we need to get our act together in terms of re-imagining things, of handling climate change, all other environmental issues, energy issues and of course COVID and public health. Are we doing what we can do to get through the tunnel here? We could always do more, we could always do more. We could always try harder, of course. But I point out, I just got an email today at the Blue Planet Foundation just came out with a waypoints report and it was outlining all the ways that we could rethink our economy, the ways we could find new sources of revenue while addressing climate change. I think the University of Hawaii also has some projects and initiatives in the works. So, there are some efforts underway and I think this year's legislative session of course happened really quickly and of course once again, probably had to focus mostly on the pandemic and just showing up. But I think that they did pass a bill that was looking at the energy efficiency of state buildings. So, that's a good start. That's really a good start. I mean, if anything, we can start with the state buildings, the government buildings and then we can look at the electrification of government fleet, which is in the works. And then after that, of course, then it becomes a personal decision. And then I think just like with the pandemic, you need to get buy-in from the public, buy-in from the community. I'd be curious, are you guys, have you guys invested in solar yourselves? Myself? No, except my time on trying to cover it. What about you, Mitch? No, I'm a renter. But my landlord, my current landlord has invested heavily in solar and hot, solar hot water heating, which is awesome because it's like almost instant on solar. I like it so. And you know that solar is up 40% this year. We had a show about that a couple of days ago. So, I don't fully understand it if you want to know, but people are, finding the money or they're finding financing arrangements that allow them to do it and they're doing it. And the solar industry is actually going great guns. Don't ask me why, but that's what's happening. So maybe there's hope in Mudville on that one. I guess the other thing that bothers me is that I would like to see more public conversation on these issues, the issues we've been talking about and you're a reporter, so you know about public conversation. You're engaged in it every day. In fact, I believe that a reporter is different than an ordinary human being in the sense that when you walk down the street, you're actually engaging with everything around you. You're watching and listening and trying to get the smell of the flowers or not all around you. And so I'm concerned about not only here, but elsewhere, decline of local print press, decline of local journalism. And that's why I'm so delighted to have you on the show because we're kind of related in a funny way. So how do you think about that? How do you think about journalism? As a career for young people, as a life experience, as an engagement with community and with democracy, how do you feel about that? I think that we still play a vital role, whether it's in print form online or through whatever medium there is going to be for the future. And I'm not kidding myself about it. The new generation, my 10-year-old, he probably is going to read the news online versus flipping through a paper. I still have a few neighbors here who tell me they still prefer to do that and that they want to flip through it and they wanna see the crossword and they wanna see the comics. But I think regardless of whatever medium it's in, journalists still play that role of engaging with the community, digging at the information and asking the questions that need to be asked. Of course, sometimes it's very challenging when you have so much going on and you can only do so much from day to day that you don't have time to dig into something as much as you would like to if you have more time. Well, let me ask you guys, what are some stories you guys would like to see relating to energy or the pandemic? What are some stories that you would like to see? If you're addressing it to me, Mitch can answer it also. I wanna know how government is working or not working. I see those young kids not fully understanding the need to feel that they are part of government and government is part of them. I wanna see the social fabric reconnected. I want everyone to vote, of course. I want everyone to have opinions about government and about how we have to live together and solve public policy issues together. And if you ask me what the most important thing is, it's covering government and it's calling out and making political officials accountable. Very critically important. Especially right now with what is going on in Washington. That'd be my priority. But of course, we like technology. We like science. We like progressive development of the community and the environment. And of course, we like global awareness because we think that Hawaii has to be connected to other places. Mitch, what's your answer to the question? Well, first of all, I love hydrogen because I think it's the ultimate alternative but it's gonna take a long time to transition out. But I'd also like to see, looking at the new format of the Hawaii State Energy Office, I think the legislature actually did a really good thing by carving them off as a separate entity with a really good leader in charge of it and with a clear mandate on what they have to do. And I'm very, very encouraged by Scott Glenn and how he's handling it. And I think there's lots of stories there for yourself, positive stories on what we're doing to change the energy system here in Hawaii because they're really helping making it happen. So those would be my two interests. I think a lot of what they do is sort of a mystery, right? I mean, maybe it's really not a household thing. Everybody says, oh, the State Energy Office, right? Nobody kind of knows what they're doing. So, all right. It's a whole new organization, a whole new mandate. And they really got a plan on how to get us transitioned over. So I think it's something that we need to get that out into the community to educate them on what we're actually doing. And positive way is just like you said, some amorphous group that nobody knows about. We have some real traction now in the energy industry. I'm really happy to see that. And as opposed to the legislators for getting that done, they really made a good informed decision on that. So that's it. I got my browning points, but... It really is a thrill to be asked by a reporter a question like that. And I just want to add that per our conversation before the show began, it would be great to have an article about the status of testing, the technology of testing, the reason it takes so long, the reason it takes so long in view of the fact that there are people all over the world working and successfully working on fast tests, five or 10 minute tests, we don't have them. And finally, as I mentioned before the show, I would really like an article talking about the software that makes testing work. You can have testing, but for a community solution on this, you really have to have to, you know, software. Where is the software? Where is the software that applies everywhere? How can we bring ourselves together in beating this with testing and tracing? So I don't think the public knows enough about that. Anyway, Nina, it's been wonderful to have you on here and to have this free-wheeling conversation with you. I sure enjoy that. It's like a great way to spend the day, honestly. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for inviting me. Thank you, Nina Wu, the star advertiser. Thank you, Mitch. Mitch, you really appreciate you coming around and we'll do this again soon. But next week, we'll do it next week. And Nina, we're gonna catch up with you later and we're gonna circle back and see what you're doing and writing about, okay? I follow Bonnie's, okay. Thank you so much. Aloha.