 Awesome. Tara, thank you very much for joining me. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I'm doing well. Good. Good. Where are you exactly? So I am in Richmond, Virginia. So Mark Hill headquarters here in Richmond, Virginia. And to be more specific, I am in the Ventures conference room here at our headquarters. Nice. And do you live in Richmond, Virginia? So I live north of the city in a town called Hanover. Pretty quiet. You know, not a lot going on in Hanover and an easy drive here to our headquarters out in Glen Allen. And is this a new experience, faced COVID? Like, do you often go into the office now? Has there been? Yeah. So before COVID, of course, we were here 100% of the time. And, you know, once COVID hit, I mean, it was almost like a thief in the night. It just sort of abruptly kind of suddenly happened. And we were home for over a year. Recently we started what we call a pilot over the summer to sort of welcome folks back slowly, surely. So we are officially right now still in our pilot, which is a three by 10, three days out of 10, some in office time and some exposure to folks we hadn't seen in a while. So, you know, right now it's a Friday. I'm here in the office. It's pretty quiet, as I assume most folks are taking advantage and working them all. Yeah. It's strange, isn't it, when you start to venture back? It is. You actually have to learn to speak to people again face to face. Absolutely. There was a lot of leaders that behaved like so well over COVID. I remember a lot were, you know, I know you were saying to them, I know you're a parent. I know you've got kids at home. I know your partner's working. I don't expect you to work the same hours that you were doing before. Like it's okay if, you know, you look after the kids in the morning and your husband, wife, partner, whatever looks after them in the evening. So a lot of people were really understanding, which is really nice to hear. Yeah, absolutely. I have several cases, I would say, on my team where, you know, they had to figure it out. So, you know, our style here at Markel is flexibility and altering a course quickly. So we actually, we had to do a lot of that. But it's, I mean, I think it all goes back to hiring the right people, the folks that you trust to get the job done, right? And we trust and give them that flexibility and space to handle, you know, personal obligations. Yeah, my big thing of the year is kindness. You know, if you focus on hiring kind people, you can't go too wrong. You know, people are nice to each other, nice to their customers and understanding and it's a really nice thing to do. So that's been my big focus. It's also, I think, been a really big test for inclusion, right? You've got, as you alluded to, people in, I mean, you don't know, like no one wants to share their home scenario. Right. And for companies to make sure that everyone feels included when a lot of the time you're not really sure what people are going through. Super tough. Yeah, I agree. I agree. You know, when I think about it, I think one of the things that Markel used to get better insight was weekly well-being surveys. So, you know, I think it's to your point, it's really important to have an understanding or do sort of a check or health check on your folks. I think leveraging that allowed us to make the appropriate changes and back to alter a course quickly. You know, there are some decisions that were made and if we got feedback in that well-being survey, that those decisions weren't the best for the associates. We altered the course. So, yeah, I agree. It's interesting. When we had lockdown in England, it was April, because I was swearing to everyone that it had been finished by May. You know, it's never going to last more than two, three weeks. Never. Right. Absolutely never. Suddenly May came around and I'm like, okay, this might be going on a little bit longer. Because, you know, you'll start, for me anyway, because running a firm, you just, I don't know, I thought process evolved. It was only going to be a few weeks and suddenly it's a few months and then suddenly you could see and hear people like struggling with being at home and how to operate at home. How did you find it? Because it sounds like you were the same as me. You were in the office five days and suddenly you're not at all for a year. I mean, did it take you a while? It did. It took some adjusting. I tell you, I don't have sort of a standalone office at home. So I had to get creative and my wife doesn't either. So two of us working from home, that was the first task to figure out, hey, where are we going to, where are we going to set up? And where will we find some quiet time for our one year old at the time? But yeah, it did take some adjusting prior to COVID or the pandemic. I was not a big fan personally of working from home. I liked the collaboration in the office. It was my norm. You got everything you need there. Your phone is plugged up. But I found through this transition that I actually like working from home. It's not bad. But if I were to pick the best case, it'd be hybrid just as we are now. You've got face time and then you have more quiet time within your full walls. So it was an adjustment. But looking back, I can't imagine a full five days in the office without the flexibility to have some head-down time at home. Interesting. So you can never see yourself going back to commuting five days? Yeah, it would feel odd. Yeah, it would feel odd. At this point, I've adjusted my calendar to have more, we call one-on-one chats while we're in the office and maybe more project-based meetings when home that don't require the one-on-one collaboration. So I'd hate to say never because things could change, but I definitely like the hybrid. I don't think it's going to go back to how it was before. I mean, it's interesting for you there. My perspective is London and it's very similar. I'm in EC3 now, which is like the heart of the London insurance market and Lloyd's there and stuff. I mean, it's Friday today and there's no one on the streets, like no one. And before COVID, I don't know if you've been to London and stuff. If you stood still, you'd get knocked over. Yeah. So it's going to be interesting. I think it's people, there's been 18 months or so now and you get used to it. You found your feet, you get into your rhythm a bit and yeah, if you live in a decent commute away from the office, I guess it's quite tough to think about going back in five days. Yeah, absolutely. So I think on the inclusivity vibe, it's thinking about how can we make it work for everyone? Because it's so easy. You speak to people and I really like working at home. I'm going to work at home and then I speak to them a bit more and I find out they're leading a large team and then you start to think, well, look, I mean, actually your team members will want to see you. They want to hear you, listen and learn. Certainly the younger ones who haven't learned how to work yet and are still finding their feet. So hopefully we find this balance of, you know, like personal, yeah, I like working at home, but also, okay, I'm servicing my team as my kind of job as a leader and okay, I want to get in. Yeah, you know, I think that that's a really good point and when I think about it, I can appreciate the path of the route that we took here at Markell by implementing the pilot over the summer and just sort of having discussions about key learnings during the pilot before implementing something more permanent. So, yeah, agreed. I think the hybrid model is the way of the future. Yes, definitely. I remember having discussions about that or on similar topics before, you know, we really got deep into working from home and I think a lot of folks were saying if we come out of this the way we went in, we've lost. So, I'm hopeful to your point that we don't go back and that we continue to apply the learnings from the pandemic in future years. I got asked the other day whether I thought work from home was the great leveler for DNI. Tough question, hey. How'd you answer it? So, there's two bits to it. On the one side, you feel like, yeah, it could be, right? Like a lot of mums, dads as well, you know, who want to be with their kids but want to do well in their careers as well. It will enable them to construct a life where you can drop your kids at school, you can work, and your employer's like, do you know what Tara? You're an adult, you pick where you work, you know? And so that will give people the opportunity that they might not have had otherwise. So, I quite like that, you know? I think that's really cool. The other thing though is there's a big digital divide, isn't there, in many countries? Like those that can afford to have good internet, they can afford to have technology and stuff. And if you can't afford it, you might fall through the gap a bit. Like you might not even be able to even apply for a job like that. I mean, you can't do the video interviews. So, I think there's a lot to work through. Right, yeah. You know, you make a great point about the digital divide. And you know, bringing this back to the DNI space, one of the most important things, I think, as folks continue to lean in and learn more, is recognizing privilege. And I think one of the things that we didn't have a full understanding or appreciation for was the privilege around digital connection, Wi-Fi, technology. So, you know, I think continuing to learn and continuing to educate ourselves is going to be important, you know, so that we don't continue to divide, you know, based on background, based on socioeconomic status, et cetera. We do a 2 p.m. call with my team every day, half an hour, unstructured, just a general chat, COVID free. So we'd come on the call and be like, what's going on? How are you doing? And just like stuff, you know, what you're watching on Netflix. You know, like what's going on? What have you done? Go for a walk today? Or coffee? What kind of coffee are you drinking? You know, just like kind of random stuff. And everyone really appreciated it. And then I'd call everyone. Every morning I'd call everyone just for five minutes to be like, hey, how are you doing? What's going on? And that's it. That's what I did like the whole way through. And I'm still doing it now actually. It was working. I tried to get it. I sent it to the company just cause you shared what you're company doing. We're actually mostly now we've gone fully remote almost. Like almost fully remote. I have people all over the world, U.S. and Europe. And pre-Covid, you kind of really had to be in London, like when I was hiring people, it was pretty much being in London. you know, we're hiring in New York. And then everything changed. And now we have people all over Europe. And one of my colleagues wanted to move to Berlin. I'm like, great, no problem. We're hiring some more. I mean, literally, I mean, when we're hiring for ourselves now, I don't mind where they're based, as long as they are kind and considerate and a team player and a few of the other things that we might look for for different roles that we hire for ourselves. And it's been super cool that the talent pool is wider. I've got more choice. It's more diverse with all of that stuff, right? If you're sourcing from the whole planet, so to speak, you're going to get a really big selection of people. So that's been really interesting. It's like complete transformation. Yeah, it's been an interesting one. I'm I'm still going into the office because I like it. But I've said to everyone, they can choose how they want to operate. That's wonderful. And, you know, it's the way of the future, Lewis. You know, I would say our position has also changed. All the world global company in my area within operations, we were, I would say, prior to the pandemic, looking to hire roles locally. And to your point, you know, a greater talent pool and the ability to manage, you know, outside of the office gives us that greater flexibility to bring in top talent. So we've actually got folks that are that we've recently hired outside of the Richmond area. And you know, I think everything is working well. That's my original point. If you hire the right people, you trust that they're never getting work done and, you know, you know, they're good partners. So that's where it is. I want to ask you about, you know, a lot of people talk about bringing your authentic self to work, you know, it's such a talked about thing. And I was just interesting, you know, being in the UK and watching, you know, the US elections and all of the, it just felt, I mean, this is just coming from London reading my phone. So I don't know if it's really the case, but it felt quite divisive, you know, a very polarised moment in time in the US. It was quite interesting thinking like, do people mean bring their authentic self to work? Or do they mean bring your authentic self to work as long as you believe what I believe? Because it's, what did you experience? Because it must have been quite hard for people that, you know, if they were talking about politics and if they knew what people were voting and it was different to whatever they were voting for, it's like, must be hard to actually like work effectively in a team with someone that you know has opposing views. I just found a really fascinating and a case study to think through it. Right. Yeah, that is fascinating. And back to the comment around, do they truly mean it? I think when we say bring your authentic self to work, we mean it. But I question whether folks truly understand how difficult it could be for people that are, I would say, attached to minority groups that are not considered the majority. I mean, it's tough, you know, when we talk about something simple as taste and music, right? And the majority group, it's usually pop, rock, maybe country and minority groups. Let's just say, for example, it's gospel. And you're saying bring your authentic self to work and we're talking about taste and music. How does that feel to someone that, you know, doesn't have anyone across the table that they can relate to? So, you know, I think it goes back to, yeah, I think it goes back to just continuing to educate ourselves, educate ourselves, recognize that there are differences and those differences are great. I mean, I think that that's what makes us, you know, a better world. Having those differences and not making folks feel left out because you aren't aware of their interests. I love that. That example of the music is great because it got me thinking, I'm really going to not pronounce her name right. There's amazing Nigerian author and I've just Googled her name, Chimamanda Adichie. I don't know if you've, she's written some really great, oh, she's made amazing books, a Nigerian author. And I watched it, she did a TED talk recently for the one I'm referring to is probably a while ago and it's about the story that you have in your head about people, right? And so when you mention gospel, I've got one story in my head about people that like gospel music and I, you know, images of like people in church and religious and like happy clapping and stuff, it put a smile on my face actually. But maybe that is in the case, you know, so I think, you know, her point and my point is that, you know, whether it's, you know, they like gospel music or they voted for a different party than you believe in or they're from a different country or religion or whatever, you know, you've got to appreciate this, there's different perspectives and different stories, you know, not everyone's the same as the story that you have in your head. And so just being open to finding out what their story is rather than thinking, you know, because it happened to like gospel music. Absolutely. Yeah. I agree. It's, you know, there are many examples I can think of, but actually a colleague of mine was telling me actually a story about discussing taste in music and it made me think, wow, authentic self, true, bring your authentic self, but how does that make one feel? So I mean, I, I listen to music in my headphones. I don't know anyone to hear what I'm listening to. They'll be like, what are you listening to? What are you listening to? What are you listening to on your headphones, Lewis, nowadays? So my, my favorite music is hip hop and house music. I listen to hip hop, I listen to house music. So I grew up listening to like hip hop and stuff like that. And then, and then I really got into like dance music, like a university. And then so I flip, I want to like remember my youth. I'll flick on the old music that I used to listen to back in the day. I've got now, like, I've got like music that reminds me of different periods of my life. Yeah. Yeah. I used to listen to that album when I was like 12 and I listened to that album. Yeah. What about you? Same. You know, it pretty eclectic taste. I mean, I could go from you know, soft rock to R&B to hip hop. You know, I could do a John Mayer. I could do a John Legend or I could do a Kanye West. So I think it's, it's across the board. And he ran for president, didn't he Kanye West? I think so. I want politics, but I don't think I was voting for Kanye West. But it's interesting. Yeah, music. It's something that's funny you mentioned music because it's yeah, I don't know. It's something that I don't often haven't really talked about with people at work. But it's not very, but it's a funny topic because it's others are quite divisive. You know, like it's people find it really difficult to speak about something like politics without becoming like argumentative and angry and combative. You know, like it's really difficult to have just a relaxed debate about politics with someone, you know, people find it almost impossible. But music, though, it's great. Like everyone's kind of like, like it's not very emotive, you know, it's like, yeah, that's cool. You like a bit of that and some jazz and some blues and that's really cool. Yeah, maybe we should be doing more of that. Yeah. And you know, it's funny that we were talking about bringing your authentic self and inclusion. And I think of a couple of examples where we've spoken about music and I quite frankly have felt left out. You know, maybe someone's, you know, having a discussion with a couple of others around a concert they're attending. And there are many names that I've never heard of. And you just chuckle and, you know, nod. So we're on the topic of music. But, you know, I could think about many cases where I felt that way, you know, outside of, you know, hip hop versus rock or country. So I think it just kind of goes back to education and even on my part, right? Educating myself on other cultures and other genres, even though they may not blast through my speakers as I'm coming in in the morning. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I remember like, we have karaoke bars, you know, like, and you've got the thing. I mean, I know nothing. I know very little words of a lot of the popular songs and stuff. And a lot of the time, you know, during my career, like you'd go for team events, the karaoke, and I wouldn't be the guy on the mic knowing all the words that we're like, Lewis, come on, you must know this one. I don't know it. But it just brings it brings us nicely full circle to, you know, the authenticity and stuff is like, you know, we're still in our homes. And and the zooms and the video and everything I think is kind of bought things a bit more like personal, you know, like, you can see someone's fridge, what the magnets on their fridge or the artwork in their house. I think there's been really a really nice thing in the barriers have come down. You know, a lot of the time you see the facade of the suit and the tie or the smart dress or whatever you wear at work. Suddenly it's like, oh, that's really nice piece of art in the background. You know, what's the story behind that. And so that, you know, there's some nice good aspects to it now. I like that. Yeah, yeah, agreed. We've opened our homes. Yes. What a lovely place to end. Thank you so much. Thank you.