 I was talking to a labour whip a couple of weeks ago who I bumped into and I was like all right come on mate, level with me what's going on with Brexit, we're going back and forth and I was like well here's my sense of what you would have to do in terms of general election which is offer to renegotiate and put it to a confirmatory referendum that's all you could do to please both sides of your electoral coalition. And that would be a very sensible outcome of the election that I think would provide us to be able to again talk about material issues of people's lives. But one of the things that he said was look if we come out and back a second referendum in full throat we're going to get killed in the north and I was like oh come on I've had a look at the data it's not that bad and he went no no no that's not what I mean. I mean that labour MPs in leave seats are receiving even now death threats harassment and abuse on a scale which has got lots of them genuinely afraid for their lives and what they're worried about is in the event of a second referendum they will become targets for far right extremist terrorists the way that Joe Cox was for Thomas Mayer. And there is a real a real danger in that and it's something that was raised actually at the PRP this week. So every Monday all the MPs meet and it was a joyous meeting today because this week because we had a new MP joining us so that was it started off well and then of course as always we end up arguing over many things so you know there was a heated discussion on many issues but Brexit was one of them and it boils down to we understand all of the facts that labour MPs will be targeted and there's real danger so do you as a party change your position because of that do you effectively allow terrorism to win you know the message of Ken Livingstone after the 7-7 bombings was London is going to get out and we're going to open up our shops and we're going to keep on our business the day after and do you then allow the threat of right-wing terrorism suddenly to provoke a different response from you but my question is but but so then the party's response shouldn't be a policy change the party's response should say we understand that things are now very different difficult so maybe actually we do need to employ more security maybe we do need to employ bodyguards and support for those people and it is a difficult moment that you get through but do you allow that and that resentment exists though it's not just being invented by brexit it exists there in those communities but there comes a point where it has got do you just paper over the cracks and hope that it will go away or do you actually need to confront it and you need to say we think that there is a majority in this country that are decent people that are not going to be fooled by this real minority of loons right-wing terrorists who are going to try and hijack this issue and we're going to be able to pursue a policy or do you change your policy because you're worried about it and i would prefer the other one i mean i'm inclined to agree but having first hand experienced some of the racist abuse and harassment after the referendum result and since then having kept a fairly close eye on how far right organizing tactics have changed how they've been able to grow how they've been able to see their talking points repeated back to them by Tory MPs people in power people who are considered part of you know the legitimate discourse has me very concerned for how that referendum would play out and one of the things that concerns me especially is that any polarization between no deal and no brexit would benefit the argument for no deal because it has the side of well we already have a democratic mandate and that was given in 2016 and what you're doing is you're gifting the far right who have been fringe for so long a mainstream talking point to build on rather than saying well you know what the mandate in 2016 and 2017 was for a soft brexit compromise here you are that's your referendum that's where there wasn't really a we don't know what the mandate was after the last referendum it was a big fudge because it was so close I think that's why most people who want to kind of confirmatory vote is they're talking about a confirmatory vote on the deal they're saying there is a soft brexit here Theresa May's deal and if you are a real Brexiteer I mean the reality is if you're a Brexiteer you should be voting I'm not going to say this I shouldn't say this because I don't want them to vote for it because you're voting for a bloody deal because in five years time you can tear up a lot of the things it's only the Northern Ireland backstop that's getting them all agitated and when they're not in coalition with the DUP they can just leave Northern Ireland in a customs union and we can leave it exactly so so I don't actually understand so what you do is you put that back to the people and you say look there is a form of Brexit here that probably fulfills most of what you wanted versus remaining is this actually what you wanted now so would no deal be on the ballot well my preference now and I've changed my mind and I am liable to change again because I think it's a moveable feast is that you wouldn't if it was a May deal or a version of May deal no deal wouldn't be on the ballot paper if it was a customs union or a kind of EEA Norway plus I think then you increase the danger of having to put no deal on the ballot because those aren't really leave options they are giving up all control options but following all the rules and what many of us said on the campaign trail in the referendum was the very worse would be would be a kind of Norway because my analysis of what you happen with Norway is actually that helps the far right far more because what happens is the far right come away saying we won that vote we've left but we're still following all the rules and so you still get all the anger you still get all the frustration because they feel like the liberal elite as it were you know we have stitched it up they've stitched it up and they haven't even kind of gone back you can't even say you've gone back to the people because we have actually stitched up because a Norway option is a stitch up Norway is let's accept all the rules let's accept all the free movement let's accept everything this is what common market 2.0 basically is it's Norway plus you know we accept all the rules and that leaves a really awful anti-democratic taste in the mouth I mean people who are saying look we think this is a tragic mistake in democracy you allow minority voices to continue to be heard in democracy you do put tests back to the people at regular intervals and my view is that the referendum was a mandate to negotiate honestly and truly and offer a brexit that could work that is what may has effectively got I think it is a disaster and so does a lot of remainers think it's a disaster for the country the democratic thing is putting it back to the people the undemocratic thing is doing some smoke filled room kind of stitch up and what you see in Norway now is this bizarre situation where the leader of every single mainstream party in Norway is favor of joining Europe every single trade union is in favor of joining Europe every single business is in favor of joining Europe but they can't garner the popular support of the people and slowly in Scandinavian countries you see that now rise of the far right and we of course see it in an awful way in some of our sister parties in Scandinavia as well does that connection work that because I mean you see the rise of the far right in Norway and in Sweden Sweden's in the EU Norway's in a non-EU relationship I don't see that I don't see that relationship I think that's got less to the rise of the far right in Norway and Sweden has less to do with institutional arrangements between those countries and the EU and has much more to do with issues around national identity around the idea of the presence of Muslims being an existential threat to the nation to the people to the culture and and that's the thing which I kind of want to loop into this discussion but is that not the basis of the far right rise really here is that not we're talking about Brexit but really we should be talking about the fact that these other things are causing the rise of the far right and that's the thing that I wanted to move on to actually is that you know and saying that well actually I think that Norway is the worst of all worlds is that I worry that you are validating the far right far too much because actually I don't think very many people care about the precise institutional arrangements between the UK and the EU I think the reason why Brexit went from being a fringe to a mainstream issue in the course of a relatively short period of time is because Britain has you know enjoyed by virtue of its former imperial status a half in half out relationship to the EU it was one foot in one one foot out you have all these opt-outs and you also have a political class and this was the thing which you know Boris Johnson was the master at concocting and wielding and firing up which is happy to blame the EU for anything that you don't like in this country and do it in a way which is like look at these people they're so unreasonable and all the good things the requirement to introduce a national minimum wage disability discrimination all of those stuff you never hear us going on about how fantastic the EU was in fact what you hear is us saying in 97 when labour came in we introduced the national minimum wage we introduced the disability discrimination act yet all required by EU law but we never say that second part do we pretend that we take the glory and so when it's good we pretend it's British and when it's bad I'm agreeing with you and we pretend it's European and at the same time there has been and this was the thing which I was in a very roundabout way looping back to is use migrants as a very convenient figure and embodiment of all those changes that you're experiencing that you don't like they're an embodiment of your loss of control of the political landscape the social landscape your immediate surroundings as well and that's something which new labour played like an absolute fiddle David Blunkett was you know an artist at that it was something which David Cameron did very well and then suddenly you've got all these figures saying no no no stay in the EU my concern with brushing off Norway is that you're saying oh look it's the worst of all worlds you don't get your control back you don't get this back you don't get that back well actually it gives you the space to say we fulfilled the result of your referendum which is you know severing ties with this political institution that you don't like as much as we can but what we're going to do is build consent and make the argument for something like freedom of movement and I feel that that was a wasted opportunity you I think that we tried to do that I think that Labour generally I mean I was not a proponent I spoke against pushing for a people's vote early on in the PLP I spoke up about that and numerous of us did so I agree with a lot of your political analysis of where we've come from but the question is where are we now what are the solutions out of this madness how do we get out of it if we could without an awful backlash just a revoke article 50 and end this madness I would do it I suspect that will be accusations of a greater democratic outrage actually now I think there is a case to be made about saying and it might well be it has to be after a referendum so after a general election not before you know kind of Labour's manifesto pledge becomes we will try and negotiate a new deal and put it back but somewhere along that process I think we probably now need a complementary vote one because time has lapsed by the way I don't buy the argument that so many people have died and so many new people have gone to the referendum because actually over 80 year olds voted predominantly remain it was kind of a hump in if you it was the boomer hump the baby boomer hump psychology is the 80s the people in their 80s still remember the wall yeah but I don't know if that's well it is interesting my grandma can't remember much of anything my grandmother came over German came over to Britain and all barring my dad of her children voted leave I went to visit her she's bedridden now but I went to visit her a few months ago and she pulled me over to the bed and she said don't tell the others Lloyd but I voted remain because I can remember what it was like so maybe the pop maybe it's true I don't know enough evidence for me on that level kind of maybe it's it's it's kind of right but so actually the aging demographic may actually hurt the remain course so let's not let's not pretend just because of but time allow space for new thinking time allow space for different approaches and I think it is dangerous to set a precedent that says you can never come back to an issue now so then you get to an argument of do you have to fully implemented the referendum decision before you can ever put this back to the people and my analysis is we'll never fully implement this referendum decision for even if you have kind of a no-deal Brexit you're going to be then in negotiations with the EU discussions around how things happen for as I say five ten years and so you're saying that you've got to wait five ten twenty thirty years before you can ever even gauging this issue after seventy five the people who wanted to leave immediately organized and started to to make their case and and so I don't think that we should be ruling out a period of time to be able to make that case and saying oh no you need to have a truce in that period I think if there is a groundswell of feeling that is a way of putting this issue to bed and of course it won't put it issue to bed in the public it won't put it issue to bed in the kind of general politic but it will put the issue to bed in parliament and allow parliament to then deal with the material issues that affect people and if parliament doesn't deal with the material issues that affect people and continues to focus on brexit that is I think actually the bigger danger for democracy people start to say hang on a second you can pass all this emergency legislation when it comes to brexit in one day the cooper bill but what the sweet f a are you doing about universal credit you can pass all this emergency indicative votes on our future relationship but what are you doing about my local school or my local hospital or housing that is in disarray and there's a real problem that if we don't start getting parliament talking about serious issues we undermine fundamentally the very basis of British democracy and what if remain losers what if no deal one on a three-way ballot well if it was a three-way ballot and no deal one we would be in an extremely difficult situation and I would be incredibly depressed but it would be life wouldn't it and you would have to pick yourself up I would of course then make assuming that this is a ballot that is an automatism so it's not a ballot that says parliament goes back and negotiates a deal so we have kind of three option deals that already worked out it automatically happens to some extent I don't get a choice I can continue a campaign and I probably would continue a campaign just like comrades in Norway just like other people to say we want to go back in the European Union eventually and probably I would be on a long journey to get there to get the public on my on my wavelength but it would be my democratic right as a politician and as a citizen to continue that fight just like when women lost the vote twice in Ireland for abortion the next day they got out there and they started organizing to have another referendum very quickly so they could get their right for abortion in Taiwan last year when they lost the vote for gay marriage what we actually said to people in Taiwan who are campaigning on this we said find any way possible legally to stop it stop it in the courts stop it in parliament yes it's a referendum but this is your right to try and stop what you think is a is a moral outrage now I think we've got to be careful about just saying Europe is some moral outrage of that level but I think we also have to recognize that a lot of this discussion isn't really about trade anymore it's about how we see ourselves it's about whether we see ourselves as European and I know from the southeast I visited France and I have family in Germany and far more than I the first time I went to Scotland was when I was you know 20 you know kind of in terms of what binds the union together feeling European isn't a human right because I mean then you'd say so so say if Scotland one one independence referendum and then the British people in Scotland say but it's my I feel British I have a connection to London and therefore I'm not going to respect the result of the referendum because it's my identity they would continue to campaign wouldn't they you can continue to campaign yeah but I'm trying to stop it in a court the word somewhat different right well well they would wouldn't they the word respecting result is a funny word but I think there is an interesting crux here about citizenship and our understanding of citizenship is still based on this Westphalian kind of model of a kind of geographic territory that is drawn and that turned into the kind of the the understanding that we have in the Montevideo Convention where if you have a unit a sub-unit within another country you could declare independence and you could have nationality the European Union started to move nationality in a very different way it started to destroy the importance of nationality at the nation-state level and started to allow people to actually maybe a minority but some people to be able to see themselves beyond British and actually in my view it cleansed Britishness Britishness that had a really negative history and a really negative connotation and the same is in my view it's happened in France and in Germany and Belgium it allowed these post-colonial countries that the reason that the colonies had existed is because they were in competition with each other Britain was in competition with France and so it was a race to see who could conquer the rest of the world more Britain was in the race against Spain and it was a conquer who could conquer the rest of the world if you stop these countries fighting each other you bring them together you create a post-colonial world but also you create a post-nationalistic world and that was the direction of travel that I think some of us not all a minority maybe were trying to push the European Union in. Lloyd you had me and then you lost me and this is exactly where you lost me because tell me it is interesting simple question do you think as many black and Asian minority ethnic people who voted remain consider themselves European as part of their identity as white people who voted remain probably probably not because identities are very multi-layered multi-faceted thing and it might well be in some BAME communities they do and in other BAME communities they don't because also BAME communities in that sense are very multi-faceted as well. It's not just about identity and the layering of identity it's also about the layering of history so this analysis of Europeanness allows Britain France you know Italy to cleanse itself of its colonial past well you know what say that to you know the people who have made the journey across land from sub-Saharan Africa through Libya been detained and then drowned in the Mediterranean you know you can't tell me that the European project and European identity which has been constructed institutionally by defining itself against the restriction of such freedoms to people from the global south cleanses itself of coloniality. No I think you make a good point there I think it's a bit unfair to blame the European Union on the migrants drowning in the Mediterranean I think that there are European Union states that are continuing to allow that to happen it is their waters the European Union doesn't per se support that in fact the European Union was supporting funding for vessels to continue going out until very recently despite the objections of those countries and it's only stopped because Italy has effectively invoked its powers to prevent the European Union continuing to go there was more ease of migration for people from North African countries for instance up until the 1980s when Schengen starts kicking in then you have a sort of parallel restriction of those there were more ease of migrants whatever your background and whatever your nationality pre 1900 and from 1900 onwards we have seen a ramping up of restrictions whether it be on the Mexican border and the US whether it be anywhere and in fact passports didn't exist as we know them now until the 20th century and so you've seen an arc of stronger and stronger restrictions and the only way that we've been able to reduce those restrictions is try and create units like the European Union and now that has been based on very flawed ideas around economic prosperity and probably people that look sound and seem the same as the majority in the respective countries the word white is just one syllable it's not it's not as simple as just saying white because there's also a discrimination between what Brits perceive as white French versus Brits perceive as white Bulgarian you know so that's what I was trying to avoid using that but levels of whiteness maybe is a way you could describe it in a very crude kind of way and yeah I get that there's a problem there but the question is how do you deal with it do you do you deal with it by trying to smash the whole thing down and my view is the danger is what you end up to is going back on the trajectory of toughening visa immigration requirements or do you start to build blocks and cooperate together so the what you see in between Kenya and Uganda and Tanzania now and other countries in that region is the developing of a free movement block where you can move work freely and they base it on the European model and now Europe negotiates with that block on wholesale we have complete free trade between that region between Kenya and the European Union there are no trade barriers at all on anything apart from arms which I personally would ban arms trades entirely so I've got nothing wrong with that and now there is discussions about how you can start to make visa liberalization between those trade blocks and so do you see that as a way of getting to a stage where we can right the wrongs of building these walls and fences which you're quite right have been built or do you see a way of kind of destroying the block and in a kind of in this kind of chaos and I say chaos rather than anarchy because anarchy is a system of governance and chaos is a system of nothingness you know kind of in that chaos you hope something to come out my view is the danger is in that case in this period in time the likelihood is likely to come out is the rise of really right-wing nationalism is very dangerous in a different period of time in 10 years time or if we managed to change the world quicker than that I actually think there is a really good case for breaking up the European Union my analogy and I don't mean this sometimes people bulk at this analogy my analogy is that I think there's a really good academic case to break up the United States really spot on it's too big it's too centralized the president has too much power etc etc if during the American civil war you were trying to make those kinds of academic arguments about why America was going to be a superpower not only were you a genius because you could see in the future but actually you just weren't seeing the time and the place the Confederates who were trying to break up the USA were doing it for the wrong reasons or the wrong motivations and no matter how much of a good socialist or anarchist or anarcho-syndicalist or whatever you would have been and there were anarcho-syndicalist around at that time who maybe wouldn't have used that tag but would have had those kinds of views of self-organization you would have been siding for the wrong people with the confederalists and you probably would have been not a racist yourself but you would have been enabling a system that was propagating racism that is my view of where we are in brexit now there are very good friends of mine in the PRP have presented to me very very good arguments for why lexit is a really potentially good argument of why actually we just need to respect the referendum result and maybe we do break up the EU and maybe in that break up you know kind of or you know us leaving the EU something grows in between that's amazing and we get kind of Corbynism my view is that actually that is less likely and my view is it's more likely to get a Labour government with Jeremy Corbyn if we fight a kind of remain corner and it's an analysis that I could be totally wrong on but I actually don't think there's going to be any winners or there's going to be no there's no solution where everyone's a winner and everyone's a loser there's going to be there's a bit of a grayness