 Hello and welcome to the second part of news clicks interview with Ambassador M.K. Bhadrakumar on the raging issue that is Afghanistan. In the first part, we looked at the situation of the Taliban, the position of the Ashraf Ghani government. And in this part, we're going to be taking a look at the role of regional players like India and Pakistan, as well as the United States, which will continue to have a key role in the future. That's another question would of course be for many of your viewers would really be regarding India's position on this issue, because India has been in some various ways a stakeholder for a very long time. But we do now see that it seems to be caught in a bit of a bind regarding who to engage and how to engage, especially when it comes to the Taliban. So could you maybe quickly take us through what are the options before India right now and what has been its approach. See, India's mistake fundamentally was this that you know that for the last I can tell you not this was not the case when I was getting the Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran division in the early 1990s. But from mid 1990s onward, there has been a drift toward Afghanistan policy being a subplot of the Pakistan policy. This is unfortunate. This is largely in the case of the security establishment coming to the fore and entering the driving seat of the Afghan policy. And the temptation might have been there that to use Afghanistan to leverage the Pakistani policies with regard to cross border terrorism. You know, it's very logical that, you know, people in their naivete would have done it, you know, but you know, the point is the India Pakistan melting pot Albin is already so flowing that it was crass stupidity to have introduced another complicating factor in it. Now, if we have to therefore, first of all, we have to distance ourselves from this, and we have to take a view of Pakistan as a responsible regional power, and then begin to think in terms of intrinsically that the country's security and stability, because everything emanates out of that, and how we can then bring ourselves into a positive frame of mind, how we can contribute to that as a responsible regional power, and in our own self respect. So if you can do that, I think it will be a huge, of course, it will be a clean break from the past, but then many doors will open. I think Pakistan will welcome it, Taliban will welcome it and international community will give a sigh of relief. What happened, why it looks gloomy today is because India was transfixed in this paradigm for which, you know, the compass is set by the security establishment. So the fellow travelers of the security establishment in the Indian strategic community, and unfortunately even responsible sections of the Indian media had a black and white picture, a one dimensional view of the Afghan situation. And from that, from that corner, there was no way that India could explore, you know, tantalizing possibilities to move towards the center stage of the Afghan chessboard, you know, and that is what happened. And much time was lost. I think an opening to Taliban is laid by almost one year at least, because the Taliban is today got international recognition all around. And the biggest example is a report by the voice of America commenting on this, that the regional states are dealing more with the Taliban, you know, than with the government in Kabul, you know, that everyone is recognizing the Taliban, accepting it as, you know, the as a genuine Afghan force. And here, you know, we have our innocence abroad in India, you know, are cubling over it, how legitimate are the Taliban, a footage has come from the CNN, that the Taliban is executing prisoners. Is it like making an omelet, fighting an insurgency, who will kill your adversaries, the whole name, the game here is to stop it. And when you cannot stop it, when you're not contributing to stopping it, you are only, you know, creating reasons by, you know, highlighting it. So, you know, the picture of the Taliban has been presented in such a grotesque fashion. And this is where an understanding is also lacking is very, very unfortunate that a country like India, which has had centuries of interaction with Islam. And cannot understand politically Islam. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it narrows down to that it is a, it is a huge cultural deficiency on the part of India today, that it has lost its eclectic mind, you know, because I know this, because, you know, this is part of the problem all the time. In the early 1990s, how difficult it was for us to convince the security establishment that we should open in line to the Afghan Mujahideen. And I can tell you this, if we didn't have a Prime Minister like Narsim Rao, with such a level of erudition, we would not have been able to push that policy through single-handedly. Every one in North Block, South Block and in other parts of the, of Delhi, you know, involved in security or foreign policy concerns, opposed us. And it was, you know, the, it was the powerful will of someone like Jane Dixit as foreign secretary, that, you know, that we put this across to Mr. Rao Nandalas. And it goes to his credit that he held an inter-ministerial meeting because he felt troubled himself and he had an inter-ministerial meeting to discuss this. The same situation is happening today, in my opinion. And here, you know, the political leadership has a big role to play. And that comes only if they are erudite. Erudite enough to understand the Afghan history and the flow of Afghan history, their culture and the kind of people we are dealing with. And then we will get a perspective on the Taliban, which will be completely at variance with these wrong notions that most of our people in the media and think tanks are carrying. Absolutely. So in this context, of course, also wanted to ask you about another question, which you had hinted at earlier, which was the role of Pakistan itself. You talked about how Pakistan also has an interest in regional stability for its own internal reasons. So could you maybe elaborate a bit on that, because the question of, say, suppose the Taliban gaining more influence, what kind of impact it will have on Pakistan's internal situation has been something that isn't very key. Prashant, they know the real tragedy comes when we start believing in our own propaganda. You know, and I can see that in the last five to 10 years, an interesting transformation has been going on in Pakistan. And I give full credit to China. Ultimately, they have been instrumental in it by offering to Pakistan a different future. And, you know, we are unable to understand this. We refuse to understand it rather, because it is not in consonance with the narrative that we have created, both with regard to China and about Pakistan. Now, therefore, you know, the whole logic of this is too much of geopolitics in the air. And I think it's not good for you. It's making India fall sick. It's preventing India from thinking straight. Pakistan has got the point that geo-economics is the crux of the matter today in the 21st century in world politics. And a country with such abandoned intellectual resources in India fails to understand it. We are dabbling in the great game in the international, you know, in the geopolitical plane. So when Pakistan has got this opportunity on a platter from China, it has got every prospect to follow a different path and become a prosperous country, a middle-income country in the near future and a prosperous country. You know, it's a country with abandoned resources. It was led astray by General Zia Urhaq. But, you know, a comeback is always possible and is necessary and a lot of responsible people, including, I think, the military leadership, recognize it. So an adjustment was necessary from our point of view. Therefore, in our mental framework towards it, because then we would have understood the potentials of the situation for us, we fail to do that. But from Pakistani point of view, they are with India or without India going to go forward. You know, you look at the science, the cross-border terrorism has virtually ended in JNK. And if at all we have a problem, it is the problem which is of our own making, which is the alienation of the people. And we are unable to, you know, increasingly we are unable to pillory Pakistan as a state-sponsoring terrorism. That is one thing. Secondly, we all speak about multipolarity, but you find that Pakistan has exploited one of the few countries other than Turkey or Iran in our neighborhood or Vietnam, which is able to operate in this multipolar milieu to extract maximum advantage out of it for its own national interests. So, you know, it has diversified its relationships. It is no longer a puppet of Saudi Arabia. It has a lifeline to Pakistan to Iran. Its strong relationship with Turkey has transformed. It is no longer a relationship between fascists. It is a different kind of a relationship. Now, as I can see, they have gone the extra league to forge a relationship with Russia. The relationship with China has transformed. But as they have enriched the relationship and it still remains the mainstay of Pakistan's foreign policy. And therefore, you know, even in the Central Asian region, you know, they have spread the network widely. And they do not look at Pakistan as a nuisance anymore. And they headache for the regional stability of the Central Asian states. And from that point of view, you can see that Pakistan's interest clearly lying in stabilizing the situation in Afghanistan. But now, of course, if Pakistan stabilizes, succeeds on that path with the other regional states, then India will have a bigger problem. Because what would be the excuse for India, the LMI for India, for not to discuss Kashmir issue. So you see Pakistan's path is actually very logical also. It is very logical. And I think it is going to be extremely dangerous for India. If this path succeeds, this path of peace, because then it comes to a situation where India really looks like a an Israel and South Asia. You know, so you see this is this is this is the this is the specter that is funding India. So therefore, you know, the Pakistani shift, the transformation in Pakistan, the new thinking there must be taken very, very seriously, because then the game will slip out of our hands. Otherwise, even those countries in the West, which are quite about it because of their warm feelings towards India, we'll have to take a stance and say, please talk, you know, you cannot go on this path. So I have a feeling that that is the problem. But then, how do we talk? Because if you talk, it goes, it grates against so many templates of the domestic politics of the ruling elites. So, you know, Pakistan is also part of India's domestic politics. So is and is and then it comes to the question of opening the Pandora's box in terms of relations with China. And this entire narrative, which we have created will have to be redone. You know, so I don't think the Indian leadership is either willing or capable of addressing it. And this is actually the predicament of regional security in South Asia today. Right. And Ambassador, finally, the last question, which is regarding the role of the United States, as you have written, the departure from the Bagram air base is likely to go into folklore, considering how it was carried out, you know, at the dead of the night, leaving so many resources, many people also commenting on how it resembled be it. But do we actually see the United States continue to be a player on the ground in Afghanistan, because they are leaving some forces, the Pentagon contractors are going to be there. There are US bases in the region. You mentioned how they're used at least in West Asia that are US based. So do we see them still trying to maybe influence developments in the region or are they cut out for the near future? You know, Prashan, the past is past and I do not want to get so much into it as to why the war failed and all that kind of thing. And why this sort of a departure from Bagram base became necessary for very some reasons, because who will want to withdraw troops in full daylight with people throwing road and except them lining the streets. So you know, Taliban wouldn't have troubled them on this withdrawal because withdrawal is useful for the Taliban. But the people, the popular feeling would have been within one hour they ransacked the Bagram base. They looted, took away laptops and cosmetics and everything. So you know, Americans have a vital role to play and it will be wrong on our part to think in terms of in black and white, because both China and Russia and to some extent even Iran, depending on the progress of the Iran deal, which is you know, brewing there in the background. And I think it is going to work because Biden is keen on it. And if it works and the lifting of sanctions from Iran is a different Iran that we are dealing with. So even to some extent Iran and certainly Pakistan will want a continued American role in Afghanistan. The coral, the big coral has been only about the war and the senselessness of this war and what the war has done to the alchemy of regional security and stability in this region. And it's a spillover effect, lightly spillover effect for other countries, Russia, China, Iran and so on. Now you see Iran has issued a statement that the level of the IRGC expressing comfort over the border security with Afghanistan, following the takeover of border crossings by the Taliban. So you know, we must notice things very seriously. What does it imply? So you know, everyone knows that the war is not good or must end and Taliban must be accommodated and a new future must be choreographed. In that, this country's peace essentially depends on the international community's engagement on humanitarian side, on reconstruction side, on economic cooperation. China will help, but China alone cannot do that. This is an intolerable burden for any country to assume. And Russia doesn't have the wherewithal. Iran, India, Pakistan, they don't have the wherewithal. It's not a matter of building a few bridges and culverts. It's rebuilding an entire economy which is completely shattered. And therefore a big engagement, international engagement is necessary. And there the Americans will have to take the lead and everyone understands it. And it would be wrong on our part to imagine that Russia, China and Iran and all are ganging up together and taking a whip and driving out the Americans from the region. No part from it. The fact of the matter is that the Western countries also, responsible countries in the West like Germany and so on, would also realize that a replay like in the 1990s shouldn't happen. Because, you know, refugee flow and all that it entailed for Europe is very much there for us to see. So they would also be telling Afghanistan is a major topic tomorrow when Angela Merkel goes to the White House, you know, to meet Biden. It has been listed as a major topic there. And therefore, you know, I think the American rule will continue. The American rule is considered necessary. Now I'll come to a certain point here, which is extremely important and listen carefully. I see a shift in the American attitude toward Russia. And I see also, I sense also the incipient science of an engagement beginning on a different plane with China. Last night I was listening to a video recording of a one hour presentation between a with Kurt Campbell, the most pivotal man in the Biden administration on China. I put it on the Facebook, you know, there is absolutely no trace of any interest on the part of the Americans to take Taiwan to a flashpoint. There is no discussion about a war with China. And he brushed aside the notions of a new Cold War. And he was talking about trade and the engagement and so on. And of course, China's as a main challenge still figures in the American matrix, but how to tackle that matrix that is the point. And when it comes to Russia, you find the similar trends already, but a little further ahead after Geneva's summit. The opening of the humanitarian corridor into Syria. And then Lavrentiev, the Kremlin's envoy on Syria, announcing acknowledging that talks are going on between Moscow and Washington with regard to the withdrawal of American troops from Syria. And the Russians are getting into the pocket of the political process in a more energetic way in the post pandemic scenario. All this suggests that an understanding is being worked out on Syria. Similarly, you know, you find also that when a big ship turns around, it has to be over a big arc, you know, and unless you're very, very discernible, you may not notice the movement. I feel that that is what it is because Biden is quite clear about his priorities, you know, his number one priorities today definitely are not not only number one or overwhelmingly internal matters. There was a statement from Moscow yesterday, clearly indicating that Russia is not looking for a fight with the US over Cuba. And that is because I'm planning to write about it today, and that is because the Russians do not think that Americans are into any dirty games in Cuba. And that this confusion is genuinely out of social economic problems brought by the pandemic and others, which have become acute, but it is not something connected with the regime change at all. In other words, the human government will handle this situation. But the important point is about not blaming the Americans. So you see, and we find on the other side also the discussion in America going on about how to go back to the default position of the Obama era, you know, and rolling back the things that Trump did. So, you know, all these things are actually we cannot in the international plane, we cannot isolate one topic and discuss, you know, a topic like Afghanistan, where all the major protagonists big powers and most small powers are converging, you know, because they are stakeholders there. Without taking into account the bigger signs around. So I think the Indian discourse must, must change. This is not a battlefield. This is not going to be a battlefield now between the big powers. The Afghan situation, it is going to be a place where there will be an attempt to harmonize. And it's very important for India to understand because India must shouldn't also miss this train, this train on the diplomatic track, because then we'll be left back in the railway station, all by ourselves, with no one to carry even our luggage, you know, no port of sight, nobody around, you know, this is what it can come to. So I wrote in fact on Afghanistan also that we must try to harmonize very quickly, because this is taking place and in the context of all that they explain Hamid Khazai, Abdullah, and all that and the bigger picture that I see emerging. Biden has established that America is back. The question is, now what does America do with this return journey? That is the point. And there is an extremely experienced politician. And I don't think that he wants to create a legacy where he's locking Hans with China, locking Hans with Russia, stalemates all over the place, for our wars in other places and so on and so forth. And you know, he's that is not this. So there are churnings that we put it like that. Succinctly put there are churnings in the international situation, which will be a full-form consequence. And even with regard to our relations with China, Russia, Pakistan, this is going to be important. And we will see this playing out to some extent in Afghanistan also. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Ambassador, for talking to us. That's all we have time for today. Keep watching.