 Hey, Piatari, it's such a pleasure to be here with you on stage. I've been a big fan of Vino for a long time For those of you who might not know Vino very well, would you like to give a short introduction to yourself and the business? Yeah, sure My name is Piatari and and our company is called Vino. We're four years old and we are Focusing on company data. So we want to collect as much company data as possible Now we're around 200 people and our ARR is around 14 million at the moment That's great. I think From my point of view one of the most fascinating things with your business is how fast you've scaled in four years You've gone to 40 million ARR and you've done it completely bootstrapped. You've been incredibly capital efficient and I think One of the reasons you've been able to be so capital efficient is the way you build your customers Could you elaborate a little bit on that and potentially some other reasons to why you've been able to scale so quickly without an external capital? Yeah, I think our The first idea when we started off was was that the customers are a primary source of financing and I think the first 10 customers They trusted us so much that they were willing to sign up with us without without seeing the actual software So we had only promised that it will be alive on August and it actually was so that that was a cool thing and And and the other other coving what we have decided from the beginning is to that we bill one year in front Which which makes us get the get the payment one one year in advance and and that which we can invest further into the product and Yeah, that's really, you know Cash efficient cash efficient way of financing your own business with your customers. Yeah Why don't we start at the beginning? When was the first time you really realized that you had a product market fit? What was the first time you really realized that you know the customer really liked what you were building? I think that Really first moment was when three of us as founders Mikko Thomas and me when we when we understood that We're doing sales We're doing B2B sales and then we don't have a good tool for finding the best possible prospects And we when we saw the sketch slide that this is how it could be We realized immediately that this could be something and and and I remember the first calls. We made it was I think the first or the second when a person answered and I pitched my product He said this sounds excellent. We should definitely meet and I think it was the first five calls when we realized that Okay, this is gonna be something do you still have a Lot of the old customers that with you from the first days some of those old customers those really advocates for your products Yeah, actually I Think if I count the first 10, I would say maybe seven or eight of them are really our customers some of them Quit for a while, but then they came back Which is which really really cool And I always want to mention mention them and thank you for the trust because it's it's the as to say the Only source of our success is customers. That's interesting actually that you have a Sort of seems have a big part of customer resurrection of customers that turn that then actually come back and become customers again Yeah, could you maybe elaborate? How do you work with both upsell? Which is a great fueling a factor in your growth and also a customer resurrection. Yeah. Yeah We I think that's one learning from the very beginning is that we we've always had a full focus on customer customer success and and during during the days we've been in the four years. We've also realized that Customer customer happiness is not enough. We need to make customers Successful and and how we we we work that we work that with them in many many ways We like slice the customer journey into different phases where there is the onboarding We focus on making sure that they understand what data-driven sales and marketing means then there is the Retention phase where we make sure that we get delivering on the promises that they've made and and after that, of course There becomes a huge pool of opportunities where we have a specific a design team to make sure that they are The opportunities are seen and approached. So I think the whole combo works very well for also for the customer retention Retention in in in many ways and the other thing that we've when it comes to customer satisfaction It's a it's a funny thing and I guess that's that's the reason why why scaling up is also important to focus on the higher end of The customers is that the more the customer pays the happier they actually are and the more they pie from us as more So that's another other important aspect. We're focusing a lot going into the future and scaling up interesting So you've gone from basically, you know starting you three co-founders. I think it is to being almost 180 people right now Yeah, it's gonna be massive differences in how you scale your organization You have to build in mid levels of mid layers of management You have to build in processes and you've actually gone from being a startup to being a yeah decently sized business Yeah, what are the you know the biggest learning from having to recruit layers of management and you know Building up processes and structures internally. Yeah, I think we're where we've been very Very good at these actually two things we've understood and that's that's mainly thanks to Tuomas and and and Mikko is that there's a huge difference in building up the product and that organization and building a sales Organization and that's where we've been very very successful I I think in in understanding what kind of management It's required in sales and then what kind of management is required in tech and and product but as the company grows then we need to build sort of other other structures as well when it comes to the HR and Finance and and and these kinds of things and the first impression of those might be that This is really paying off right now But what we were we've been very good is I think to understanding that this is something that is required for us to Go beyond hundred and hundred and fifty and and that's that's important That will be done there seems like low the Early-stage businesses that we meet today or struggling or with hiring Yeah, you know engineers aren't everywhere is difficult to to hire and the competition for talent is massive Yeah, definitely. How did you spend your time hiring in the early stages? Did you get in some HR person early or how do you compete for talents? I think it's in the very beginning and that's actually a cool fact that We we just figured out we just counted out that out of the 25 first employees 21 are still on the in the company and I you know really need to thank the the early employees trusting Mikko me and Thomas with the with the message and with the vision vision we told And and I think in the very beginning to get the right team. It's about the founders be able to Able to convince with the message and deliver on what is what is what is told when it goes in the further I think it's it's a lot about that The founders message don't matter that much It's it's more of what the company can provide and there comes in a very good and efficient and Like a good HR organization that can build a very clear structure and when you enter the company What does it mean for you and then third thing is definitely brand not not in terms of brand in terms of like Customers that's a whole different thing, but it brand in terms of employees So what what can we provide for for tech and product and engineering department? What can we provide for business oriented persons? And that's the third very important aspect of it interesting One other thing we actually discussed backstage recently is the impact on churn in the business Yeah, if you're a small company churn doesn't matter that much in the beginning But once you get to scale it's very difficult to replace If you have a high terms, how do you fight churn? We fight churns in churn in very very many level it actually it all starts from from marketing Well, actually to be very honest it all starts from the first new beast approach to a to a possible customer where our Where our sales pitch? It's not like it's it's very concrete and it doesn't overpromise. That's that's the first thing And then it goes all over as I described from the onboarding to the retention and to the to the renewals And and in customer success I think one very crucial thing is also because you can do a lot of things in customer success It's about with data to find the right points where to attack and what to do there And that's we've we've done that and we're doing it more and more in the future You mentioned customer success there and we talked about upsell before as well and The way the sus businesses do upsell very a lot from companies or companies Yeah, one school of thought this that you should separate the upsell from the customer success people to maintain that really Relationship with the client that you're there to serve them. Yeah, and the others businesses try to Essentially have the customer success people upsell them. Yeah, how do you do and how do you think about? drawing that Chinese wall between doing what's best for the customer and also Taking opportunity to sell more to existing customers Yeah, I think it differs a lot in terms of what is the size of the customer when it's in in an enterprise level where the Subscribes and prizes are are very significant. Then there is very much a room for specific roles when it comes to Technological when it comes technological implementation where it comes to the you know understanding the substance of the business and when it comes to upsells and the law the lower end we go the more you can Actually unite all these roles into one and and yeah, that's actually also what we are building right up right now interesting In terms of culture as well, you know, we talked a bit about hiring but It's gonna be very difficult to maintain a culture within a company When you grow as quickly as you do, you know, there are new levels of management your new people in all the time How do you make sure that you sort of? Stay that the culture stays the same if that is even, you know, something is strived for yeah Yeah, I think we are yeah the culture might change when we grow But I think the DNA has always remained the same and I hope it really Really will and and I think one very crucial aspect of building a team Team and the culture the same is that the employee Turnover is not high and and that's if the employee turnover is high then the culture really it's hard to maintain it And and for a reason or another I don't know what why why? but but we've been very good at Keeping people and we've been able to get very good people on board and and I think we have a great team achieving what we want and Also sticking on the point of the organization you're now have office s in is it four or five different countries a six I mean six different countries amazing. How did you think about you know opening in the third the fourth country? How did you choose the characters to go to? How did you you know? operationally structure yourself in a way to so that the satellite offices could have Accountability and still feel that they're a part of the overall vinyl Yeah, yeah, I think the satellite office is a it's a challenge when when opening another office There needs to be a culture that the office Office is feels united with the with the main main office But how we did is is that in this case? It was me with with Joel and another employee we just flew into Sweden Of course, that's the first place where you want to go outside Finland to set up a set up an office And then the second second after that was a Netherlands where we flew in with with the oil and and made sure that the with with the oil and tail. I'm sorry to make sure that the Culture remains the same than it is has been in in Finland and then gradually sort of the New people that came on board in in in Sweden and in in Netherlands like adopted the vine way as we want to call it and and there it went on so We're having a bit of a conversational procure here, but just jumping back into the you know initial phase of the business Yeah, how did you get your first customers to really trust you where you didn't have a lot of reference cases? You know your product was maybe an early MVP Yeah, how did you build that trust from your first to say 10 15 customers to really, you know Use your product when you didn't have a lot of references to start with You know, I think that's a good question. I really You know You're just I guess it's only about Being able to convince and and and build a trust across the table That that the customer gets a belief that this guy is not fooling around that they they are Serious here and I guess that's just the feeling we were able to achieve not only in Finland But I we did we were many we managed to do the same thing in in in in in other countries as well And frankly, I cannot tell you the exact answer how that that happened. I think it's just yeah tough to say So where do you think vinyl will be in three years? We've discussed a little bit before backstage to well of you know Your position in in the sales process and the possibility of taking a larger part of that value chain Yeah, how do you see? The vinyl product and the vinyl organization and business as a whole develop in the upcoming years. Yeah Yeah, I think the we're focusing a lot in in Making sure that The our data is is plugged in in in of course in other solutions as well In in in in the further up in the value chains in in enterprise level Then also on the lower end of the self-serve model So I believe I believe what will happen that our our products and our data will be Served in in many many more channels than it is now and that's that's a significant focus for for us Do you eat your own dog food in sales? Oh Definitely definitely in every single place we can it starts from prospecting it goes into customer success It's plotting to marketing You name it and I hope we have the results to prove that it works. Yeah, I'm sure you do So in the sales data Space it seems to me like that you have an bit of an advantage actually in building a business out of the Nordics because of the Public availability to business data here. Yeah, has that affected you in any way? Are you able to maybe use that advantage to build models to predict other data points or yeah Has that been an advantage for you in competing? Yeah, I've been talking to quite a few people around the world and and and very many People say that if this kind of successful company comes from somewhere It comes definitely from Nordics because Nordic is in a very very fortunate position That we have so much good company data available in Which these data can be used as a training data set to uncover more data that is not Public that could be like revenue figures. For example, they are not public information in the vast majority of the world But with the huge data set that the Nordic provides it can be used. So it's a it's definitely an asset to be born in in the Nordics Looking back again into, you know, the the original days of vinyl. Yeah, what do you know now or what would you tell your? Founder self in the beginning that you know now whether that's just calming you down or you know giving you advice. Yeah That's a good good question. I don't know. I would just say if You know enjoy the moment I guess that's the most important more than the lesson that needs to be told and not that I haven't but But I think that's the number one foundation for for future growth is to be able to enjoy where you are Do you? How do you celebrate wins along the way? Oh in in in many ways it starts from It starts from ringing the bell in sales all the way to having mutual like kick-offs we flew we flew in People to at least born the whole team and then the product and tech just spent some Good week in in in Spain and and in very very many various ways and in a very Everyday situations as well. So we laugh a lot So we discussed a bit before on the you know on the broader sales of marketing technology space And it seemed to me from an investor point of view that a lot of Marketing and tech businesses have grown to a certain scale and then sort of flattened out, right? It's a very fragmented space in general We've seen a couple of large players like Marquette. There is good example too. That's that's become has become quite big Why do you think this is and is that something you've noticing as well? Yeah, it's actually something we've acknowledged there's a lot of like spaces that that are very hot or at least have been and then for some reason have have faded away and When it comes to the company data businesses, well, I mean there's a there's a lot of opportunities surrounding company data and and and how you really Put the company data into product. It's a it's it's not only a million dollar question I think it's a not even a billion dollar question I think it's a dozens of billions of dollars of question and and I Mean I hope we've cracked it, but nobody has yet yet been there If you I'm just imagining here, you know, you've gone from a small business to a hundred and eighty employees They're a short amount of time here How do you make sure that you know your employees are aligned? Not just culturally but also, you know in the way we're moving in the way you are Selling and in the way you're building things. Yeah, how do you keep that? You know alignment within a business when you're so quickly are growing. Yeah um it's Yeah, I think there is not the you know We focus on it and we don't see it really as an as an issue, but I guess it's It's on making sure that we speak with the same tone. We speak with the same message Nowadays lately we've of course slack is a very powerful tool for for communication And I'm making sure just that we are aligned with everything we do I think that is one important thing and the other other crucial Important thing for us is that we don't have that many roles like in sauce business general there's a Product and the engineering team then there is then there is the sales and this customer success and there's marketing and there's Finance and HR. That's that's about it. So it's only five or six different role types And it's when it's not that many then it's easy to make sure that the message flows through in its its part Interesting, what's your favorite tool that you use in vinyl except for your own tool, obviously Yeah, we use a lot of a lot of uh tools I think We use also a lot of uh, the sweetest sauce tool. So, uh, I think Get accept is a very cool small tool. Then of course We use a cs cs software called Plan hat, I think that's that's an excellent tool. Uh, then of course in the marketing We've been implemented. We've been taking a hotspot into full scale. So That's that's a great tool. Um, and then And then then of course Slack I mean you can't you think you can't ignore slack and that's a great tool as well So We started out with saying, you know, you're a bootstrap business Are you in any way, you know Scared that some of your competitors might be vc backed and we'll be able to Grow very quickly and you know, uh, spend a lot of money to outgrow you. Is that is that a fear or do you feel comfortable in your situation? I mean, of course we look around all the time if if there's something happening and then Giving giving that the business model is exactly what we do and then definitely We're very comfortable with the situation if there's somebody so we see ourselves Disrupting the existing business if there's somebody wanting to disrupt us in a totally new way And it would come, you know, just out of the blue Then of course we would be Afraid of that but up until now we haven't seen anything but we definitely keep our eyes open for that Last question. Yes What would be a 10x better product in your space? Have you ever imagined something that would Significantly improve vinyl or similar products Okay, come again What would be a you know a 10x better product? Do you have any crazy ideas of a product that you wanted to build? That's maybe impossible to build but that would be 10x better uh, yeah, I mean what we see in in general is that uh, you know B2b sales will be more and more performed by data And and and made by computer. So how we see it in the future some data on the road Companies will be doing a significant part of B2b sales Just as what has happened in stock markets and in programmatic sales at the moment Thank you, peter. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much russians