 Hello, welcome, everyone, to the latest depadaptation Q&A with me, Professor Jem Bandel. And I'm really pleased to be joined this month by Elsie Luna and her mother, Heather. And also wonderful to see people joining us from around the world, including parents with their children too. So, yeah, so I just want to say a few words about Elsie before I introduce her. Elsie was one of the very first UK child strikers for climate and she co-founded Extinction Rebellion Kids. And she was an organizer and spokesperson for Extinction Rebellion and Extinction Rebellion Youth in the past. She's British, Colombian and American, so it brings that global perspective to these issues. And so I was delighted to meet her mum when her mum was working for XR and learn about Elsie and I was so impressed. I thought that it would be wonderful to have the chance to talk about climate in general, but also some of the worst-case scenarios, depadaptation in particular, and the implications for young people, but also very importantly, what young people think we need to be paying attention to. So, Elsie, I believe you're 12 now, is that right? I'm 11. You're still 11. When's your birthday? October. Okay, okay, is that when you were a Libran? Me too, I think. So, super, thanks for joining. So, I think, so my first thing when I saw your speech recorded on YouTube, I think a speech you gave in Bristol, and then when I saw some of the things you've said and also even in an academic article, I'm going, this is unreal. So, can you tell me something about how you got into this? What got you started on being a climate activist and an advocate and indeed sort of thinker on these issues? Yeah, so ever since I was little, I knew that the planet had a fever, but only a few years ago, did I realize that it was bitter than I expected. And so, my mum told me about Greta Thunberg and yeah, so she'd also had a movement, a small movement then called Institution Rebellion. So, I wanted to get involved very much with to become a striker. I was home educated, so technically I couldn't strike, but I could still support the movement. And so, my mum got in touch with some ETSR people and we went down to London and they organized a protest for us. It was just more like maybe five or 10 people. And then, so that was like one of the first strikes in the UK. I'm a little striking, but yeah. And so, from then on, I sort of got involved in ETSR and in, yeah, I didn't really get involved in Fridays for the future much, but yeah, ETSR a lot more. So, they had a bridges action where they occupied the bridges in... That's right, I remember, yeah. And I wanted to... Well, my mum had earlier told me about some of the worst polluters, the factories which polluted the most. And I, well, she suggested that I would go to the headquarters and tell them to keep their fossil fuels in the ground. And so, I definitely wanted to go to that action. I mean, to do that action, because no one else was doing it. And we realised then that we were about to move to Germany. So, my mum was like, well, should we not do it? And I said, no, I still want to do it. And then, doing that bridges action, we found time to go and do some of the companies. And we got some people together to do it with me. And those were like some of the poor people in its central rebellion, the people who are now like some of the most well-known people in there. And so, I went up to Shell, MVP, and other such companies. And that's kind of where it all started. And then on, I got involved in XR in other ways and branded it such as... So, that's interesting. The initial focus was to challenge the fossil fuel companies directly ahead of then the broader sort of trying to disrupt society to bring attention to this. That's interesting. Did you see much response from those companies or indeed any response? No, so when I went up to some of the first companies that would either like, you're not allowed to film in here so we didn't get publicity or all those sorts of things and nothing really happened. And then before lunchtime on the first day, we went up to Shell. And they had some construction works going on and the guards outside said, no, you're not allowed to even go into the building. So with my small group of a few people, we stood out there for almost two hours trying to get them to let us in. And it was really cold. It was raining, I think. And we stood out there and we chanted songs. And yeah, that was really fun. And eventually someone came out and they brought me in to introduce me to the county chair, the country chairwoman of Shell. So that was a big one to get to meet her, but then it didn't go too well and obviously Shell was still going. So yeah, that was any of the last steps and the thing which I did. And the next day I went to BP and I said, well, basically it was like, it's always fun to talk to the guards outside because they often agree with you and stuff. And basically you stand out there. I stood out there with my small group of people and said, will you let me in? And then the guard said, nope, you can't come in. Will you take someone else to me, to speak to me? No, no one's coming. We can't do that. Shell did it. Oh, wait, someone's coming. Oh, wow. You know how to play them against each other. Yeah, basically. So yeah, I got to talk to just a reporter, someone who talked to people, but obviously BP is also still going, so. Yeah, so I'm interested in that. Given how bad things are, how bad they're becoming, how little is changing despite such activism in the past, but also this new wave of activism, including young people, famously young people. What do you think we should focus on? What do you think is, what are the lessons that you've learned and you think people should pay attention to about how we should go about trying to create change now? Yeah, so not too long ago after the October rebellion, which was held by Extinction Rebellion, I left ETSR, and ETSR did an amazing job raising awareness and stuff, but it turned out that they did have some problems. I think it was definitely an amazing learning experience and stuff. So I think definitely, what to learn from all these movements is definitely, they've all raised awareness amazingly. And yeah, I think that was just like absolutely amazing, making people just at least think about these issues. And so one thing which I'm just going to continue using ETSR as an example, one thing which ETSR was doing was they were asking the government to do stuff, and the government has a huge history in not doing stuff. So basically, I personally don't think that it's done work very well. The government is doing to come up with lots of excuses. The government went so far as to declare a climate emergency, and that's not enough. That's just completely not enough, which means that I think that the government can only do so much in terms of actually creating some good change. And so I think ETSR only went so far. And I think one of its problems, possibly another, just like looking from another point of view is that, so basically think of it like this. So oppression is the cause of all these different things. Climate emergency, racism, sexism, adultism, when adults think they're better than young people, and disabilism, and all those things. So oppression is the cause of that. And what ETSR did is they said, we're going to look at the climate and ecological emergency. And just to say, as a point of view, why is this one the emergency? That's like a really big question. Oppression has been oppressing people in so many different ways. And now some white middle-class people come out and say, this one is the emergency now. We have to work on this one. So the growing tension started coming about in ETSR, whether it's better to, we must look at the climate and ecological emergency. This is an emergency, it's going to kill us all. It would be more not to just work on this one. And then the other people who say, we must look at the root cause of all these things. So we must look at oppression and look at it carefully. Otherwise we will get it wrong. And this growing tension turned into like some real problems within the movement and stuff. And then it started where it seemed like people who went into the movement and often were on the oppressed side, they thought that the movement wasn't right for them just because it seems like they were ignoring the fact that oppression had been going on for such a long time. It's really important that we don't ignore that obviously. And so that's another thing which went wrong. Can I just summarize just to see if I'm with you on this Elsie? So I think I'm hearing that you see the degradation, destruction of the environment and rapid climate change. This is really bad in themselves, but a symptom of systems of oppression which involve and exhibit racism, disabilism, sexism. And colonialism of course, and some people talk about patriarchy as being this big sort of bad thing that means that we kind of damage everybody and nature. This is the broader perspective that you have. And so then when you look at environment issues, environmental activism, you're wanting to see that general and holistic approach. And you felt that on occasion or maybe more than on occasion, it wasn't understood that way or it wasn't prioritized. And so that's fascinating to hear. So from that perspective, given that I'm white middle class and most of the people that I talk to through my professional work are white middle class in the West, what's important for us, people like me, you know, 47-year-old man speaking to a lot of those people that you've been talking about, what should we be thinking about? What should we be working on prioritizing? Who should we be listening to? Yes, so I think white middle class people definitely have what to do in terms of realizing that they're not always the right ones. So I think we definitely need to listen to people who are marginalized by society. So if you ask a rich person, like a really rich white man, what's wrong with society? They probably won't know compared to if you asked for example, a woman of color. So you've really brought to listen to these people and they've been going through struggles lots more than, so we're not the first struggle ever, definitely like at the present, like the first movement ever to do as they've done. And so definitely we need to listen to them and learn from them and their perspectives and stuff. And yeah, because they understand oppression more than we can ever understand. And I think that if we don't understand like the wider picture of stuff, it's true that we are probably going to get one. So yeah, I think we've definitely got a lot of work to do of like... Wow. So what you said there is really important, I think is that even if people like me try to understand, we just can't in the same way because we haven't got the life experience. And the implication there is that we need to support and certainly not get in the way. So it's a real, it's a question for people like me to keep thinking about how am I helping support plural, diverse voices on these issues, including when there are issues that I wouldn't prioritize because it's no good if white Western middle class people set the agenda and just try and open the door when it's convenient to us for people from different parts of the world at different ages to speak up. So that's really, thank you for that. Thank you very much. I was wondering also, then I think a big thing that's happened in climate recently. So I've worked on it since early 90s. And but what's happened in the last two years is that people are beginning to feel vulnerable in their own lives in the West, beginning to see that climate change is going to threaten them, disrupt their own lives. And but I was, I was wondering because some people say that that's really important to recognize that climate change is here. It's bad. It's dangerous. It's going to disrupt our own lives. And let's start working on that, including recognizing the emotions and so on. Other people say it's bad to talk like that. It's counterproductive. I was wondering how you look at, I mean, this is your future more than it is mine. I mean, so how do you look at the future when and when you see all these really, this really bad news and some people saying it's going to disrupt and even break down our way of life our societies. When I say our unconscious, I've still got this white, Western middle class hour in my head. So what do you say when you hear those sorts of debates? Yeah. So I think definitely, definitely like, you've got a point, like you can be step for yourself, but definitely do not ignore the fact that this has already been happening to other people. People have already been through this. It's hit other people already. And like, that's just like really important to not ignore and to take into account. I think definitely, it's good to keep that in mind and to learn from what they did, see what happened to them, and then make sure that you guess it right whatever you're doing. And to always, yeah, just keep in your mind that like you're not always going to be correct and didn't like what you're doing and you've always got to like listen to other people and what they've been doing too. Yeah. So that's really interesting. So the idea of this, if we're talking about adaptation to climate change or deep adaptation, it's to recognize that incredible irrevocable, that word, disruption to society, to people's livelihoods, way of life has already been happening because of climate change, because of environmental destruction and even before the current issue, you know, through colonialism and trashing of people's environment, stealing of their land, it's been happening for a long time and we should learn from the people who've been experiencing this and responding to this in their own lives. Yeah, that's really, really, really clear. Do you feel that the people that you talk to in the environmental or climate movements get that? Do you think they get that? Or is there a lot of work for people like you to do to invite that awareness? Yeah, I think definitely, like, I don't know, like every single person in the world personally, but obviously, I know, in, from ETSAR, there's a wide variety of points of view and I think definitely sometimes we do get it wrong as a white middle class person. We do get it wrong. So, what I mean by getting it wrong is, so, like, to take an example, like, for example, conservation. So, take conservation. Indigenous peoples have been keeping the ecosystem running and they're really important in it and they belong to their land and they should be able to sustain their land. But often, what white middle class people have been doing is they've been saying, oh, we're going to conserve this land, which means that you're going to have to leave it because we think that you're messing up the ecosystem. Actually, white middle class rich person, actually, you need to realize that you're the one who's messing it up. They belong there and they can work it out and, you know, you shouldn't be able to take them away from their land and use conservation as an excuse to do so. So, bad things can definitely happen in these ways and, yeah, and I think it's really important that I believe that capitalism is not the best system at all and it really did it marginalizing people and making people feel excluded and oppressing people. Yeah, oppressing people. And so, like, basically, a lot of these white middle class movements which are popping up and stuff, they accidentally fall into asking for capitalist solutions. And so, even if it's our did get its demands, and even if it's our did get what wanted from the government, it would probably end up being a solution which doesn't actually provide a good solution for everyone in the world. It will only provide a good solution for, for example, the white middle class people in ATSAR and the white middle class people in government. So, we've got to make sure that we provide a solution for everyone and that it would have oppression instead of just getting rid of the problem Yeah, absolutely. If the cure is worse than, if the cure is from the same place as the disease, then all manner of problems. So, if we just say, okay, suddenly we're going to do as much as we can to solve or slow climate change, but it comes from that same oppressive colonialist dominator othering mindset and structures as well. As you've taught, you've mentioned capitalism. So, the same structures of power, then the policies that we'll come up with could cause a great deal of harm. So, yeah, that's really, really, really important message. And what I'm feeling a bit of shock Elsie at the moment because you say it so clearly and so easily, it's so damn obvious also. But we don't hear this all that much, certainly from what I'm hearing from climate leaders. So, yeah, I'm a bit like, wow, why are we not hearing more of this? I just want to mention to everyone who's on the call that please do send your message, your possible questions to Matthew, his thing, his questions here please, because I would like to throw it open to other people in a moment. I was going to ask though, Elsie, before we do that, how do you think adults might better support young people like you either on climate activism or just in preparing for this future that, you know, it's a difficult place to be an 11-year-old now with the awareness you have of the future, or at least it seems to me to be a difficult place, maybe I can learn otherwise. But yeah, how can we better support young people like you in general and on environment? Yeah, so just simply, like, it's not our fault that we were born into this crazy system and it's actually obviously the adult sport that they've let it happen, et cetera, et cetera, which means that I'm not saying that the climate strikes are wrong at all, like the fact that children did it, but I'm just going to say that as it's not our fault, how can we're the ones who have to strike and miss our education, you know, even if education is bad or whatever, like, have our lives, you know, have our lives have to be disrupt, more than adults do, because we're just willing to stand up and see the future clearly, more than adults are. It's their job to have to create a better future for us, really, you know, sure, we can lead, we can say, this is what you should be doing, how dare you not do it, whatever, but actually, definitely, it's the adults who are supposed to be doing it. So, yeah, I think definitely, I think, yeah, another thing for adults is definitely, like, children tend to have clear minds, to be honest, just because they haven't been influenced, literally have the time to be influenced by the system as much, which means that it's always important to include children in it, but not to make them do all the job and just say, like, yeah, you're going to change the world, you know, you can join the strike, too. Yeah, totally, so I'm absolutely fully concurred, because when I've talked to young people about this predicament we're in, there's a presence, a fullness of attention and creativity, like, this is how it is, okay, so what are we going to do? And when I talk to adults, there's a lot more baggage about how do I wish to feel about this, how does this fit with my existing responsibilities and my existing story about how I'm a responsible person? When I talk to young people, it's pure immersion in the issue and how do we creatively respond, so absolutely. And the second thing you said, absolutely, I can't bear it when people say, oh, you know, Jim, I believe in the future, because the young people are so different, they're going to fix everything. I'm like, come on! Their activism and their actions should put us to shame, not just say, oh, it's okay, they'll fix it. So yeah, absolutely. So we're going to move to questions now. Mary, you're 11, you're in the north of England and with your mum Harriet, you have a question for Elsie, please, over to you. Okay, so I'm 11 years old and I host a podcast about climate change, but recently I've been working towards loving the earth through winds into places I love. The charity is called Radical Joy for Hard Times and it's about knowing the wound of a place and feeling grief about the place, but loving it and making it act of beauty there. So I just want to say, have you done anything like this? Yeah, so on the point, just like the name of the word charity, just to say about charities, I think they're amazing, you know, they're going to like help the world in many ways. Yet, ideally, we would be saying, we're not going to like say, oh, poor people, you know, marginalized by society, all that sort of stuff. Instead we should be with them and not giving them stuff like they're below us and stuff. So I think like the way charity acts, sometimes gets a bit dodgy, you have to always be careful with that as in like instead of saying like, we're going to help the poor people in, for example, Africa or something, instead make sure that it's more like, we're going to be alongside them. Yeah, so I think I haven't, it's actually been involved in a charity much, I don't think, but in terms of that, but yeah, as I said, I have been involved in head signs a little bit in quite the sort of feature, but not really. What I'd be really interested in hearing from you, Elsie, and then also coming back to you, Mary, is this issue of the healing and the reconnection with nature in our own lives, in our own locations. So, and how that we can all do this in our own lives, in our own locations, this sort of, it's this idea that we're all hurting, we're all hurting from the damage that's being done to animals, to ecosystems, and to our own future, and to other humans as you've so wonderfully talked about, Elsie, in terms of the oppression of peoples around the world and even on our doorsteps. But this idea of reconnecting with nature and healing our own hearts, is that something that you think is a good idea and have you seen it? Do you think it's something that maybe could be integrated into climate activism by young people? Yeah, so I think definitely like healing our minds and stuff and getting closer to nature is definitely always a good thing to do and it will also end up probably helping us think clear about what to do otherwise. So I think, yeah, that's always a good thing to do and to get children into it, like in a young age is always obviously a fun thing to do anyway, to make sure that, you know, we don't get too disconnected from nature. Yeah, yeah, and Mary, I'll put a link to your podcast in the YouTube channel description as well. I really enjoyed you interviewing a Katie Carr facilitator with the Deep Adaptation Forum and it was a great interview. We're going to move on now to Eshna. Eshna, if you could say where you're joining us from and your question for Elsie or for Elsie's mum. Yes, so I'm assuming I'm unmuted now. I hope you can hear me. I apologize that it's a little bit dark in here yet. I'm talking to you from the foothills of the Sierra Nevada Mountains in California in what's called the Motherload Country. It was the old Gold Rush area, but I happened to be an enrolled member of the Croke Creek Sioux Nation in South Dakota. And all, all indigenous across the whole planet continue to suffer. And in point, and I love Elsie, that you were bringing up the fact that so many people are already facing, you know, the dismal conditions of what you have said, the root cause of oppression. And, and so, and then Gem, you're talking about suffering, you know, and that the Western developed world is sort of maybe becoming more aware of it because of the conditions now with COVID coming up. So my question has to do with oppression, this root cause. And have you thought very much about how this oppression or the suffering could be a better focus than just climate activism by itself and how this could, how we could actually bring this more to the fore because in point of fact, the majority of humanity is suffering very, very deeply. And, and I hope it's okay. That's a big enough question in itself. So I just wanted to thank Mary because it's really true, you know, in each location, you know, I don't care if you live in, in, in the middle of the city, there are little grasses growing through the cracks in the cement. And there's a consciousness there. So thank you. Thank you for bringing this point up. So I just wanted to acknowledge this, this beautiful action that you're doing. So thank you very, very much. Thank you. Wonderful. Yes. So just, just to acknowledge that I'm so completely with you as a native American, I'm so completely with you and keep fighting. So, yeah, on your point of like how a question can be more important, yeah, completely like, you know, the majority of people in the world are being oppressed because one reason or the other. I think definitely, I think definitely, yeah, climate and ecological breakdown is, again, just only a part of oppression, which means that, you know, to look at the wider picture will give us a wider picture of also climate and ecological breakdown. So I think, yeah, and because it's affecting already in a lot of ways, as like climate and ecological breakdown is also affecting people already, but oppression has been affecting people for so much longer as well. And all sorts of, you know, people are being affected and the majority of people are being affected and stuff. I think definitely like it is a really important subject to look at and to work on as me as a, and you as a, everyone is like a middle class person. And yeah, it's really important that we work on oppression because, you know, it will also just like clear our minds of this like guilt and stuff, of like being probably on the oppressed side. And yeah, definitely like it's a really important subject to look at. Thank you. We've got a question from Katie. Yeah, hi, thank you. Elsie, I am so inspired by your energy and your clarity around your values, what you want, what you're able to do and the way in which you communicate that. And I see your mum there with you as well. And I'm guessing that your mum's love and support play a big part in you feeling empowered in the way that you do. So a big shout out for mum and a big shout out for mum's in general. And you've been talking a lot about privilege. And I feel a little bit like the kind, that kind of support and the ability to be so clear about taking action and what your values are is a kind of privilege itself. And I worked in schools and with children and young people for a long time and I've met lots of children who don't have that privilege, who might encounter the difficulties, the emotional difficulties and the practical difficulties of the climate crisis and just feel all at sea, you know, just lost and panicked. And they just want to look away from it the same as adults as well because they don't know what they can do. And I was wondering about other children and young people that you might know who might fit the description I just said or children and young people that you don't know. But who don't feel so sure about the actions that they can take and what your advice might be for them if where they find themselves is stuck in a place of fear and confusion which might lead to just wanting to look away from it. And also I guess that's the same question is advice for adults who do work with children who feel like that. Yeah. Yeah. Good question. By the way, I love the cat. So yeah. I think definitely loads of people are in this state of mind where they just think it's true that it's really hard to think about these things. And it brings up like feelings of guilt and stuff. And I'm aware that lots of people, even unknowingly, do these patterns of thinking that they are having enough power to do stuff. And definitely to them I'd love to say like, you know, you do have the power to make a change. And so you just say like we can never overthrow the government. We can never get rid of this capitalist oppressing system and all that sort of stuff. But basically like, I believe that the change obviously because it can come from above because, you know, obviously like it never has, then basically they never properly has. Then basically I think the next best thing is to work within our communities. So you just say, well, why don't we become prime minister or whatever? To say, well, yeah, that's a good idea. But how do you do that? Well, you're going to need lots of, well, in the case of the UK MPs and to even just become prime minister. And in that case, how do you become an MP? Because you campaign in your constituency. It brings us back to the fact that we should be working locally all the time. And that's probably the best thing to do. So just to knock on someone's door or like to help someone out in maybe a COVID friendly way at the moment, then that will just create a really lovely small change which can make someone stay. And really for something like that, there's no way to say that you didn't win. Like the fact that you made someone happy, that's a win in itself. So that's just like, you know, the fact that you that you built some community and that you did all those sorts of things to be able to fight like bigger issues and stuff. And yeah, I think it's really important that you realize that like that in itself is a win and that that in itself is really important. Because even if that's how they've managed to get, for example, the citizens assembly, then part of the solution would end up being the whole community so that you can help each other when the sea rises, for example. So it's like, you know, everything comes back to the community and to just make the smallest of changes in the community is just a win. And it's so fun to what people you know and love. And that's important to hear because when we get scared with the latest environmental news, we can get a bit attracted to the the bold, the the ambitious, the we're going to change everything. And we must have a we must have a plan which matches the the challenge. And people argue loads over what's the best plan. What I've just heard from you, though, I think is as much it's as important, possibly even more, to focus on how how we are moment by moment. And and if we are making a positive difference in our small circle, then that's a win as well as hopefully adding up to something bigger. So that's really, really, really good to hear a reminder of that from you. We're going to have a question from Kimberly, please. Thank you, Jen. Thank you so much, Elsie. And again, as Katie said, completely inspiring. My question is, is I'd love you to say a bit about your emotional journey with all of this. You know, you strike me as as very happy, very upbeat as you should be. That's wonderful. But have you experienced periods of, you know, darker emotions, grief, sadness, etc? Yeah, so I think definitely like Niveenet's are in itself was like a hard time to realize just like that it had problems and the solutions have become as easy as that. And so yeah, definitely that was a hard time. But another thing to just say is that children just don't tend to have those feelings as much as adults do. You know, it's like, yeah. And yeah, again, like just the influence that the world has had on you to make you feel bad, like because you're most likely being oppressed one way or another. You know, you haven't had literally as much time to feel oppressed, which means that, yeah, you'll both have like a better point of view on like the world and stuff and as well, just like better feelings about the world. So yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I was, thanks. I was wondering your thoughts on, I mean, obviously a lot of children have experienced homeschooling for the first time in their lives because of the pandemic. But now, I mean, that may actually mean that people want different things from school teaching or more people thinking about homeschooling. What do you think? How do you think curriculum should be designed? And what do you think young people like you should be learning now, given the way the world is and what looks like is ahead because of climate disruption and also because of your values around anti-oppression? What should be being taught? So the school system, just to put it shortly, is completely broken and completely bad and is completely purpose to create a very small amount of actual people we feel empowered and people to make any type of change to become a leader of a company or do any big quote unquote job and important quote unquote job. Obviously, you know, it's not bad. So I think, so yeah, the system is completely broken and so just to give some background, I think that the purpose of the school system was to purposely influence native peoples to become part of the capitalist system. So the way it would work is, I don't know if it was like a painting or drawing or something, but there's a painting or drawing of like a white woman coming from the west, staring away the Native Americans and the wild animals fleeing her and she's like this huge woman and she's got the star of the empire here and then behind her comes white settlers and in her arm is a school book and so that is literally where it started and so the purpose of it was to like train like, you know, like Native Americans and people who are very much connected to the earth and not ingested otherwise in capitalism and, you know, all that sort of stuff, which the west economy was trying to put forward. So the purpose of it was to train them to become workers and to become more like the white west and not to give them stills to survive and stills to live and they took them away from their native cultures and stuff and they influenced them to become, you know, white middle class people basically or at least try, you know, most of them will end up like not actually getting a good education, which is actually important for anything. Most of them will just like go on to the work system, which obviously doesn't really accomplish much, isn't that fun? Yeah, you want to see a very big, big change, a change in not just bits and pieces, not just some subject areas, but a change in the philosophy of education, the change in the intention of education. Yeah. And yeah, I feel that and I share that with you a lot and from all ages all the way through university as well. So thank you. We got a question from Brian, if you say where you're calling in from as well, please Brian. And we can't hear you, Brian. And if you can't hear you, how good. Got me now. Okay. Hi, I'm calling from Indiana, United States. And I am the dad of two young boys, two and six. And in you, I see great courage and resistance. And I'd like to foster that in them. And so I see this five, you know, pivotal years between the age of my older boy now and your age at 11. And I wonder what tips would you have for me as a, you know, young dad to help foster that resilience? How do I bring these questions and these issues to them at these younger ages? And is there an age when you really felt like you were ready to engage with these kinds of questions? Or is it more like a gradual process? Thanks, Brian. I'm also going to say that Heather, if you also want to tip in on this as well. Okay, Elsie. Yeah, so just saying like, definitely like, one of the main things would just be to like empower them and help them with whatever they want to do. If they're saying, I don't actually want to focus on planet activism, I want to focus on racism, sexism, more oppression, or something else, you know, that's their choice. And you're not the one who gets to decide what they do as children and with their lives and stuff. And I think that's definitely like a very key element. I think definitely you have anything to add? I would say modeling, modeling, having an attitude that's, we are powerful. And I follow a particular parenting philosophy since before she was even born. It's hand in hand parenting, if you want to giggle that. And it's all about making sure that young people have a chance to express their emotions and be fully human. Don't shut them down in any way. Home education, although I don't formally home educator, it's unschooling. So it's just kind of following her brain where it wants to go. But modeling in the background that I know that I'm powerful and that if I see a problem, I go out there and try to fix it. And so she's been raised with that in the house. And yeah, finding out what she's interested in and then facilitating her being able to do that. So I think Brian, at this point, it isn't so much the subject, but the being able to listen to our children and take their lead in whatever they want to be doing and being completely relaxed and as best as we can and modeling that we're very hopeful and empowered ourselves. Thank you. Also maybe on this, Mary's mum Harriet, if you want to share your thoughts on this too. Hi. Oh yeah, just listening to you Heather, it's absolutely what I would say as well. Elsie and Mary are only a few months apart. Last year, especially Mary went through quite significant and intense anxiety that lasted quite a few months and I went through the whole gamut of feeling the grief that I was the one bringing this to her awareness that I didn't want to hold back from telling her the sort of the scientific stuff and all of that and having to sort of get myself out of the way and really listen to what she needed to hear as guidance and so that was actually why the podcast was set up and from that we just met so many amazing people with such wisdom and it was such a gift and yeah, so it's just absolutely just wanted to reiterate what you've just said which is the children look to us for everything and it's a parent thing, you know having those daughters of that age. It's 1430. Oh, that's Siri. You know, having a... You obviously pay close attention to the time in your house too. And just being mothers of children of this age, really paying attention what's going on, all of the stuff that's coming up and it's just really, really holding you in your role, Heather. Wonderful. Thank you Harriet. Thank you. Well, we've got time for one very quick glass question from Madis. Madis, say where you are and questions for Elsie please. Hello, I'm from Estonia and thanks for this excellent episode today and there's a question for Elsie. So given that you have achieved so much already and done so much already and given that you said that you have found this community to be a very, very crucial point or endpoint to raise resilience, are you planning to establish deep adaptation kids? You probably, she doesn't probably know much about deep adaptation, so she wouldn't but maybe for Jen's community. Elsie, I'll send you some information on who we are. Believe it or not everybody, I don't go around telling everyone what deep adaptation is all the time. And so I will send it to Heather and Elsie and let's see. I mean it would be brilliant to have you on board, involved Elsie and Heather in what's becoming a fascinating international conversation and movement of initiatives of all kinds. For me, your analysis is very compatible. For me, a creative, wise, compassionate, just response to the climate tragedy is all about questioning, power, challenging oppression and making sure that we don't replicate the abuses that brought us into this situation in the first place. So I think there's strong resonance with everything you said today. Elsie, I just want to say Eshna has left a message in the chat. She's inviting us to mark the world peace and prayer day with Chief Aval looking horse, 18th to 20th of June and it's linked with International Children's Month. You know I didn't even know there was an International Children's Month, so thank you Eshna for that information. Thank you everyone for joining. I've had a very enjoyable and inspiring hour with you Elsie. So thank you very much for joining and thank you Heather also for making this possible. If everyone un-mutes and says bye-bye, that would be lovely. Bye. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.