 Hello everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. I'm here with Kevin Breckbill. We're in Chambersburg or near Chambersburg. You're part of Chambersburg Christian Fellowship up here. So a bit of an interesting topic today we're going to dive into. In America today it seems like, you know, things are really polarized and how can we as Anabaptists, you know, we believe in the Two Kingdom concept, what is our level of responsibility as Kingdom Christians in a time like this? Where do we even start to try to untangle this mess? A very good question. What I find interesting, so I grew up Anabaptist and River Brother, to be exact, these people probably aren't aware of that. And so my passion is to see the Anabaptist respond right to the Kingdom of God. And when you ask, when you sent me this question, one of the things that came to my mind is we need to understand our mission about Kingdom Christians. What is that mission to reach out into a polarized culture, a polarized world? What is that mission? And I think at 3-0, we heard this word a lot about Two Kingdom concept and what does that mean? What does that look like? What happens so many times is the distractions that we face as Anabaptists or we allow ourselves to be engaged in, distracting from that mission. And you know, it's complex on one side, and yet I think it's very simplistic and powerful on the other side. And the simplistic approach that Jesus called us to, and what makes it political, if you will, his Kingdom, is that he's calling us to be out of one Kingdom into another. Like he's stealing citizenship and alliances into another Kingdom. That's what makes it political. So if we understand what we're doing when we say, you know, it's becoming to Christ is more than just being saved. It's a part of it. But the power behind it is that we become a citizen of his Kingdom. And that's, I think, is that needs to be understood. And then the next question is, what is that mission that we're engaged in? And I think if we understand that, we'll be much more effective in how we then relate to our governments and the political bias and the political polarization and all that goes along with that. He calls us to walk in righteousness. He calls us to build his church. What's that look like? That's people being called and to be a citizen of another Kingdom. You know, we need to evangelize into that Kingdom with the intent of bringing them into the Kingdom of God. I think the question then comes up is, what is the warfare that we need to use? Because one of the distraction comes down, you hear a political issue that takes place of, let's say, something that's extremely unjust in society. What's the warfare that Christ asks us as his King and we citizen soldiers of his Kingdom? What's the warfare that we need to pick up and answer that call? How do we relate to it? Jesus says, my Kingdom come. He wants heaven to be on earth. And so he's calling us as a King and his Kingdom to respond in a very, in a peaceful way, but it's through using his weapons of warfare, not the weapons of polarization, whether it's the media, whether it's force, whether it's a zillion other things, that's intimidation, whatever that comes with that. I mean, how did Jesus respond to injustice in his day? All the readings that we have, the scriptures that talk about it, he doesn't really comment about, not the specifics at least, he's kind of hits the general. But what's interesting to me is, so you look at the master and the slave situation in the scripture, he tells the slave to be the best slave that he can be. And he tells the master to be the kindest master that he can be. Now, that to me has the potential to be polarized, right? But what he does is he goes, and so his revolution is through a change of heart and a change of actions for people. And so that's the call of citizenship that we can be those people that are, you know, more than just saved, you know, Jesus saved me, but that we are called into a king with a kingdom, with laws and rules that were to follow. And so I think it's really important that we understand what are the, what is the weapons of war that were to use to conquer all the injustice and all the terribleness that we do, the evil that we do see around us every day, like it's bombards us every day. Well, so one of the perceptions, I mean, I've kind of had this perception a bit as well, is that more Anabaptists, you know, Mennonites, Amish, whoever, are getting more involved in American politics. Why is that? And is that a correct perception? And what do we do about that? I would have that perception as well, you know, as far as doing the statistics and how it's actually panning out. I don't know the exact numbers to be able to prove that one way or the other. But definitely in conversation, there is this rise in people's opinion of political issues. And the one answer that comes to my mind would be that in order for that to take place, I go back to my first statement. I think we would be losing the vision of the mission of the kingdom of God and losing the mission of what the warfare weapons that were to use in order to conquer the way Jesus conquered sin and evil and people. And I think it's just the beginning of that is eroding away at the clear teachings of what Jesus taught about his kingdom and his ways. And what's interesting is John the Baptist, which is the forerunner of Christ, what was his call? Make way for what? The kingdom of God is at hand. And so our mission is always in light of how to present and how to evangelize to the kingdoms of this world, his kingdom. So would you suggest the higher levels of political involvement is basically showing that we are starting to lose that essence that you're just describing there, of continuing on the mission? I personally would, yeah. I mean, if you start down the road of getting involved of violent protest and voting. What's interesting, I just about two weeks ago I heard a lady that, you know, she's 60 some years old, and you wouldn't recognize her as an abaptist today, but she would call herself a Christian. And she said, well, this year she has to vote for the first time. So what's the reason for that? It's the fear that takes place and grips people's heart that they begin to lose the confidence that Jesus way and Jesus kingdom is actually adequate to change people's hearts. And then we have to resort to the political process and whatever else to accomplish that or force or whatever means that tend to take place. So then people start voting. And unfortunately, over the years, the Anabaptists have voted. Like I'm not a historian that I know exactly all those dates, but I know it definitely goes back to the Civil War where, you know, Anabaptists started to vote. And if you read the history, what's interesting, they started to fear. Like they didn't want this guy because of this fear, so they vote for this guy, like whatever the situation is. And so I think that's one of the beginnings of the fear. It says fear the Lord your God, not fear whatever seems to be urgent at the time in our political culture. So that's one way that I think people find themselves walking away from the true, from that mission. I was thinking a little bit about the first, your first question, the change of alliances that takes place. And I was thinking of this. Think of David, King David, when his son, Absalom, tried to take over his kingdom. And what was interesting is David fled. Okay. And how did that take place? Like, what was interesting is it says his men, when he was out in the woods, they said it was like robbing, his men was like a she-bearer being robbed of her welps. Now, what happened there? They were robbed of their alliance. Like, you know, Absalom wanted to steal the hearts of the people. Okay. And that's what was taking place. And they were loyal to David. And the beautiful thing is they were willing to die like a she-bearer to save that alliance. And we are to have that same kind of passion for Christ and his kingdom, that we're willing to die to be aligned with Christ and with him. And the interesting thing about that story is Absalom, how did he distract the people? He sat at the gate and said, where are you from? I can help you. You don't have someone to listen to your voice if I was king. And so he stole the hearts of the people by promising them another alliance. And I think that's what happens when we begin to hear the voices of the media and whatever we're listening into and we get wrapped up in the fear of the moment, if you will, the fear of the situation and not look back to Christ and his kingdom and his laws and his weapons of war that we are to use is forgiveness, like is changing our hearts. And I think the greatest thing to change any society is not by the top down through political means, but by the bottom up, which means my heart is changed and my deeds become righteous. And then I influence you and steal your citizenship to the kingdom of God. And you become true to this kingdom. And what's interesting about Christ's kingdom is he calls us to be obedient to these kingdoms unless it's against God. And that's very, very interesting. And the best, when I drove that point home for me personally is when I realized it's like an embassy in another country. They listen to the laws of the country that they come from, but they still drive the speed limit, whatever law is put upon them. They are within that framework, but they don't vote there. They don't put the people in government. They don't run for government. They don't do anything of that kingdom that's leadership within that. To me, that was the best example that I've ever heard and has revolutionized my life personally, the passion to be willing to change and to be that person first of all and foremost in order to then hopefully we can influence others. In your opinion, what should we be doing as we see Anabaptists increasingly taking, I guess we could say both sides of the political spectrum? My answer to that is I weep. I think it's a tragedy that Anabaptists would become so distracted that we would end up taking sides on both sides. I think that's just a terrible place of misunderstanding and I don't know that I'm going to blame those people that do that, but maybe blame ourselves. Have we not represented the kingdom of God in a way that they understand that? Just to take sides on both ends of the political spectrum, I mean that in itself to me jumped ship from one kingdom to the other. I think we're very aware of the injustice. Jesus, I think, was very aware of the injustice of the dead, but he responded to it by being compassionate and by actually calling those individuals to respond right to it and then he did whatever he could to reach out to that and to alleviate it and to help it, but he never got involved in the fight between the Samaritans and the Jews. That would have been the two opposites. That would have been the political polarization of the time that I'm aware of. In my opinion, I guess I would go back that we need to go back and relook at is our mission clear of the kingdom of Christ? Are we teaching that effectively and have we taught that in a way that people recognize that we listen to Jesus and his laws and his kingdom and if we start to sidestep from that thing, it's so easily to become distracted. I think in our day, the socialist issues with the internet and everything, it's just so easy to get so much information into our hearts and into our minds. So following up on that, we're talking about people taking the opposite sides in the political spectrum. What is something our churches can do to better, I guess, handle this lightning rod of politics when it comes to interacting in the political sphere? One thing I'll always find interesting is when I hear that question, I think what did Jesus ask us to do when it comes to government? And he tells us that we're to pray for our government leaders. Do we believe that? Do we recognize and understand the power that prayer actually does? And in order for that to be, you know, we say we want change in our society, Jesus says we're to pray for them, that they would allow us to live in peace and harmony and we're to pray that they would lead well. Do we not believe what Craig says, our king? Like it's so easy to allow ourselves to be misled and get involved in many other things. What's interesting, a while back I was doing a survey and asking people, so how long do you pray? What is your prayer life? You know, we call ourselves kingdom Christians or Anabaptists and, you know, we depend on this King Jesus. Are we praying to him like he calls us to? Are we praying to him for our brothers and sisters? Are we praying to him for help us to be better people? I heard one of the most powerful stories I've ever heard of prayer and it was this man, he was actually, I think he was from India, I think it was, he was a not a nice man. He was married and not nice to his wife, not nice to his children. He was mean, he was demanding. In fact, I think he drank a lot and he would come home night after night in an abuser and was really, really violent. But his wife was a Christian and she would always, you know, talk to him about being a Christian, he wasn't interested. And but she would always go into her back room and pray and this would always irritate him when she was back there praying. And one night he snuck in and was listening to her pray. And you know what she was praying about? She was praying that she could be a better mother and a better wife to her husband and that the Lord would help her be that person. And it broke him down. Most people when they pray, there's this temptation to, you know, I pray for you that you would be a better person. So the power is, is that if we are them people, that gives us, if we are walking in righteousness, I mean look at the life of Christ and his apostles, they live that life out and they were one of the some of the most effective people of all time. And I'm going to suggest it goes back to their prayer life. The prayer life gives opportunity to change people in a way that I think we completely underestimate and miscalculate. And I think it's a misunderstanding of what, what, what our prayer life should be about. So I really don't know what you, how you pray. But my life will reveal it. If I start to become distracted, I think that's evidence of being not having a full prayer life and not being that person of that agent of change. Because I've often wondered like the amount of energy that's expended on not doing that, you know, what would happen if we would turn those energies to that prayer life? Like how can we serve as a church and be better and, and be Jesus, you know, to our society? And I go back to the weapons of, of, of Jesus kingdom, you know, and that's one of his weapons that he was, that he asked us to be, to do and participate in. He asked the one or the other weapon is, I think it's foundational, is forgiveness. I think that is just something that we talk about. And I think the Anabaptists have done a very good job. And I think one of a current event is what is called the nickel mine shooting that had took place in the Lancaster community. That forgiveness that comes out of lives that, that recognize that, that is massive. Like, you know, and that's, that's peacefulness, that, you know, living peacefully. That's the weapons of warfare. I think if I can learn to be that kind of person and that powerful and learn to be kind and represent the kingdom in that way, that's the most powerful agent of change that we had for a politicized, polarized culture, that everyone's always up in the air about things. You know, for those, those watching, what are the ways we can develop more Christlike attitudes when it comes to seeing what the government's doing, politics, the media, or regardless of our own personal opinions? Yeah, like what can we do? What can we do? I would suggest actually one thing that really comes in my mind is how critical I hear people getting about our governments. They seem, I don't care what side you're on. They polarize in a way that the other side becomes bad and evil and really terrible, terrible, terrible people. And I think as Christians, we should not engage in that kind of negativity. I think it creates disrespect in our own hearts towards our government leaders. And how are we to forgive our enemies if we're going to have those kind of feelings and, and, and attitudes towards government? What happens next? You know, do we fight against that? And so that, that's just one thing that comes to mind. And if you feed yourself full of media, it's going to be really hard to have good feelings towards them, good attitudes. You know, I do not believe that we're a kingdom that is called into the cornfield. Like, you know, we kind of disappear into, you know, and we build walls and it becomes safe zones. I think the kingdom of God is designed by design is that we are advancing into those, into all the kingdoms around us to take over them kingdoms and to bring people into his kingdom. So I think it's exactly the opposite of what people often think about. And so we need to be praying and evangelizing and discipling people, building these beautiful churches of peace. And that's the unfortunate part. Sometimes people don't experience that in, in churches. They, they see so much division and so much frustration and divides, unfortunately. And if anything, we need to start with ourselves. That's what Jesus calls us to do, that we become that angel that is peaceful and gentle and kind and convinced of, of what we're doing. I think that represents the life of Christ. And, and I really believe that we need to start with ourselves. Well, yeah, because that kind of goes into the last, you know, the concluding piece I had, the last question is like, what are maybe some ways we fall in short? And then practically speaking, what are some things people watching can do right now? You know, how can we take all these things you've talked about, wrap them up and, and say, okay, here's some things we can start in with many. Well, as I said before, I do think we need to start with ourselves and maybe with our families, with our churches and just really, I would suggest starting with discipleship in our, in our own churches. I think that's something that we assume going to church and that that's going to take care of it, or we assume, you know, the family is going to take care of that. But when you look at people that succeed in, in, in history, the apostles, they all had someone that they kind of took under their wing and, you know, John was a disciple, probably a disciple of the Apostle John and you can look at and almost all the apostles. And I think that's a very valuable thing that it might be something we ought to look into and be more intentional about. We started that, you know, in our church several years back of having a discipleship with the men and just, you know, have accountability, helping us work out if there's issues in our lives that we don't see, just to speak into light in a very gentle way. And it's been a very powerful thing. I think if we want to change the world, let's start with ourselves and our churches and just dial that in. And I don't mean, I don't mean in a tunnel vision, but, but, but we start to change ourselves. And, and if you're that genuine individual, you're going to go out and share the gospel. You're going to, you're going to want others to experience that, be that angel of change and disciple one another to that. And I mean, I personally think we make more headway of discipling. If I disciple three people and then those people, three people go out and disciple another three people, we're going to make more progress of change in a, then, then, then preaching to the masses, masses per se. Because when it's personally connected, that thing just goes step by step. I mean, I've learned to know David Berset for example, and I have been discipled by him for several years. He's older than I am. You know, I know John Martin, Lynn Martin, all these guys that I know. And I'm a student of them. And I benefit from them. I think, well, I want everyone to experience that, to be discipled. And then I feel motivated to be that person and go out and disciple others and look at the string that's taken place. Like, David's influence is massive because of that. Thanks so much for taking the time to share. Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate it, Brian.