 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. Always, always a pleasure hanging out with our good friend who can't seem to keep his pants on when he sees us. No. I think he gets so excited that he just wants to be naked. Maybe he gets sweaty down there. I don't. It's like a swamp. I don't know, but I appreciate it. He's got an amazing body, so I don't have any problems with it. Just let it out, buddy. But he loves to just get naked. And he did that. With his rainbow jump right in the pool. Did you miss that, Sal? Did he get in the pool naked? Of course. My eyes. When we are getting ready for the podcast right now, we were getting all set up, and he'd come up to me and he says, can I get a towel real quick when I jump in the pool? I said, sure, OK. And Justin is sitting with, is Justin seeing, can see the pool, my back is the pool. And Justin goes like, oh, this motherfucker just got naked and is swimming in our pool right now. There's a naked man in our pool. Totally naked? Totally naked. God, he's so comfortable with himself. He's so free. Did you see what he did at the convention to me? No. We're all hanging out talking, and he leaves, and he does a fucking ball tap. Hits me right in the pills, and just kind of laughs and stuff. And I'm like. That was the strange goodbye I mentioned. Damn, bro. I love Kyle. He's a great guy. He hallows and strange, you guys. He's a great father, great husband, great friend. He's a good guy. Good human being. Good human being. One of our favorite. Yes, he's a good dude. And we always have a great conversation with him. We never know where it's going to go. We never discuss what topics we're going to address. I and Oscar will come up. It's just so forgiving. Yes, it is. And I do, I do. But now it's brief. You know, I give him a lot of credit. It was. I always kind of eye roll a little bit when we start there. I don't know if that's just a. It's a cool topic. I don't mind. That's why you don't mind talking that way. I'm like, whatever about it. I'm over the conversation. We've had it so much. But I know that's a common ground and an interest that I think we shared in the last couple of years. And so it's a common discussion. But I do like that we we hit it. We move on from it. And then we talk about a lot of the really good stuff. Yeah. In this episode conversation. It's always a good podcast when we have Kyle Kingsbury as a guest. And I mean, that was from day one when we first met him. So one of our favorite people in the world. Also, look, this month we are giving away two nutrition type guides for free. We have the new intuitive nutrition guide and we have the intermittent fasting guide. Both you can get for free if you enroll in any maps bundle. Now bundles are what we take multiple maps programs, put them together and discount them. You can find these programs and more at mind pump media dot com. Now without any further ado, here we are interviewing the director of human optimization from on it. Kyle Kingsbury is also the host of the on it podcast. Enjoy. Bro, that's the shirt. That's the shirt right there. How long have you had that shirt? You wore that the first dude. That was the first time. Yeah, that was the first time you hung out with us. I think you wore that. You I think you might even came into mind pump media in that unicorn shirt. No shit. I believe it's like a test that you do with people when you first meet them. It's like these motherfuckers are cool reaction. They're gonna like that I'm barefoot and I have a unicorn on my. I get more compliments about this shirt. I have the same sweater. The hoodie. That's that's I remember that one. And the hoodie that's awesome. That's fucking they crush, man. So I like that shit. So I've shown the picture. We had another guy. So I found this guy, right? He was dinosaur fucking shirt and he had this. He had this fucking rad cowboy hat on. And so I traded him a bottle of wine for his cowboy hat and I took his cowboy hat the rest of trip. But it's dope. Yeah, yeah. No, I was like, look at this shirt. It's so right. But remind me of your shirt. Yeah, that's true. So you what I see you have? Is that a glucose monitor on your arm? Yeah, it's a CGM for how long you had it just yesterday. Oh, my wife got one. So this is a legit. This is the legit like medical. I'm it is a legit. It's implanted in there. I can I feel it like when I get an overhead or if I'm driving. OK, starting it's starting to go away. The the feeling of it of actually wearing it. But how long do you keep that on? Or do you have to change the adhesive? This this will run. It'll stay on me for two weeks. Then I mail it back. So unfortunately, like I was telling Justin earlier, I don't get shit in real time. And that's really the benefit of having that is that you can look on your phone or whatever device and see exactly what's going on while it's going on. So how come you didn't get the real time one? They well, they have it. It is real time, but they wouldn't give me the fucking little. He's like a beta tester. Yeah, the one that goes with it. Exactly. Oh, interesting. So I think they're they're trying to get as much data collected on this as they can. Sure, hooked up a bunch of people that are influencers. And interesting. We'll see if they want you to food log and do I was just going to say you probably have to keep a bunch of I fucking haven't done that. Like six goddamn years. So I'm like, he's like, what? Adams wheelhouse. I think I'm just going to work. I'm just going to cheat. I'm going to cap the day like, hey, I drank this night. It was the effects weekend. And then I danced. So maybe there was some. Maybe that's the yo-yo effect. All the rest of the stuff, right? And then, yeah, no, no, all the drugs. I don't know. That would be a fucking just as cool to see because they're like, you know, don't be super clean. You know, they want you to kind of want to see the reaction. Have some cheap meals. Yeah, see what the fluctuations are. And it would be very interesting to see how chemicals interact with blood sugar, you know, you know, it's funny. I think depending on the chemical, I know certain certain substances will probably lower. I believe nitric oxide type boosters like like Viagra and stuff like that will definitely, I believe a lower, you know this because I fucking dropped in. It was the first time my wife and I had ever done Viagra together. So what's that like? Do you with the so Viagra increases blood flow for both men and women? A lot of people don't know this, but women also get kind of like an erection like a man would. It just happens to her, you know, whatever the her for us well her for all the swells, yeah, yeah, and it's supposed to increase that, you know, that blood flow. But did she notice anything from it? And pleasure. Yeah, you know, it's it's I mean, with I'll just put it on the wall there. We I wouldn't call it candy flipping because that's where you take him at similar times with LSD and Molly. We had LSD to start tonight. And we had some Molly later on in the night with 2CB. 2CB is one of the alpha beta means that Sasha Shulkin created. OK. And it doesn't give you the push towards love the way MDMA is. But but it's they're similarly constructed. Interesting. It's a phenol group instead of a methyl group. OK. And it was our first time running those things together. And certainly our first time with Viagra. But so it takes it takes longer to come to climax for men and women in that situation. But you have a desire to work towards it. And that's exactly what Shulkin says in his book on it. I think it's Peacow phenol. I'm going to get I'm going to fuck this up. Phenolalanine phenolalanine phenolalanine. I don't know if there's fucking druggies out there that are kicking out of this way. You fucked it up. It's it's pee something I've known and loved. And it's it's all these amazing chemicals that he's created. But I think he created this in the 80s like 1982 or 85. Interesting. And he said if they if the pharmaceutical industry ever comes up with an aphrodisiac, this prescription, it'll be based on this. Just less psychedelic. So it has aphrodisiac properties because I know, you know, when you read the literature on on substances like MDMA, it's not it's not like statistically or or consistently an aphrodisiac. It's more of a like letting break in on the walls and people love each other on stuff and they've never really identified it like a real aphrodisiac for everybody. And this one is you're saying that's what all the trip reports have been on it. You know, I haven't taken it. There's only a second time I've had it. So I don't really know. Is there like an equals one standpoint? How that looks, you know, but it's certainly it was fucking awesome. We had amazing, amazing sex. And I'm happy she was able to get there a couple of times, which is the goal of any session. So is there like a forum of like people that you talk to about all this? Yeah, man. There's a lot online. Aeroid.org is one of the first like drug databases that I ever got a hold of and it's there's a ton of knowledge there. They have how do you know everything from chemical structure to legality based on where you are to trip reports and the trip reports are people's experiences and the people that right there, they're all fucking down. Like they're all trying to do the work. They're not just like, you know, I fucking got a lot of reports. I mean, there's every drug known to man included there. So you can see like a meth trip report, what that looks like. But for the most part, when it comes to the psychedelics and things like that, it's people saying this is what might they have a scale. So like this is my CEV closed eye visual scale. This is my open eye visual scale. This is my feelings, you know, and they just fucking go through every possible experience you could have on it, but it's very detailed. So you get a really I love I love I love technology. The current state of it because it's funny with more information. People have treated these things. So I'm not like necessarily an advocate or not. I'm an advocate for people doing what the fuck they want to themselves. You're a fucking advocate. Well, I'm an advocate. You know what? Do you know I'm an advocate for people being able to do what they want, what they're about freedom, you own your body. But my point is, you know, I love that the in the past more information. They tried to they would try to clamp down on it or prevent it from happening because they think it would encourage right, you know, dangerous behavior, but the the ironing help people the more they know. The opposite is true. You're actually getting people who are doing more responsible use and you hear more of that now. The past like, oh, I did all this now. You're like, no, no, don't take that much of this and go do it this way. And because they're educating themselves. Yeah, I mean, we have we generally do things. I mean, we're not afraid to go down the rabbit hole with substances we're familiar with like psilocybin and things like that. You know, like we'll do the heroic dose of those things at home where it's controlled environment set and setting out in public different different scenario. You know, so we we truly did limp in with all the substances. We took a small amount of each, maybe not with the LSD, but definitely a small amount of each. And then that was that was cool. I mean, it was a beautiful experience top to bottom, you know. So is that a is that a thriving culture in this town? Because I feel like it I don't know if it's just because we were hanging out with, you know, we meet with you and stuff like that. So yeah, I don't know if it's game recognized game or if you're saying like, I don't know if like it's it could be like attracts like and I meet these people and certainly being a part of the on it culture and with Aubrey, you know, we get we get to see a bit more of that. And I've I've met, you know, quite a few awesome, interesting people at the Rick Doblin fundraiser they did maps did for PTSD at Aubrey's house. But yeah, man, who do you deal? Who would you've interviewed a lot of great minds in that arena? Like, who do you who's like a go to person that you would recommend? If someone's listening to you right now and they're kind of like, I want to hear more science or information on this. I would I would just Dennis. Dennis is dead. He's still dead. OK, still dead, man. Damn it. Dennis is fucking amazing, man. I mean, a great place to dive in if you got three hours to listen to Dennis McCann on Joe Rogan. And he really gives a great, you know, a lot of the science, but even more of that is just the the respect he has for I was he's done it over a hundred times. And he says he still feels like a baby every time he does it. And that's something I, I love when there's that level of familiarity, but still that level of respect for what you're doing, because it does take, like you have to have a fucking level of respect for what you're doing. Have you seen, because you're in this world and you're, you're probably viewed obviously because your position is a bit of an authority on this, the subjects like this and others to have you seen people go down the, the road of like abuse or have you seen anybody who's like, okay, you need to not do this, like yeah, let's talk about that for a second. No, no, yeah, we have to, we have to play both sides carefully. And that, you know, the truth is there's, there's quite a few people that I've seen, even in an ayahuasca circles where, where it's not easy. It's not like I'm going to fucking take LSD too often, which is super common. That's an easy one. Really? It's fucking euphoric. There's not a lot of work. You're like, yeah, you know, Jim Fatiman talks about, you know, every fourth day psychedelic explorers guide is an excellent resource for that because it takes your, your body time to clear, right? So if you do it more often than every fourth day, which is still fairly, it's a lot of that's dropping in often, right? But if you were to do it faster than that, your body down regulates it very quickly. So then, you know, one hit, you need two hits to get to one or so on so forth. But with, when it comes to, um, when it comes to ayahuasca in particular, I've seen people show up that they do the same. It looks like they're in the same fucking spot mentally and emotionally every time I see them. Like just trying to escape. Well, they're not, they're not doing the work. Like you can get the fucking message, but if you don't take that from the ethereal spiritual place or whatever the fuck that is and ground that into reality by actually doing the homework, there's not much gain from it and doing that by doing the homework, you mean like, okay, I got this, whatever the message is, I'll explain that. I got an experience. I had done it three, three months in a row, um, just a single ceremony, but three months in a row and, uh, every month for three months and the second time in the third time in a row, I kept getting the same, I kept being told the same thing and it was to meditate into yoga and I was like, why are you fucking telling me this again? And the answer was you haven't started meditation or yoga. That's why like those were my, then that's, you know, it's kind of like, um, what is it? The Oracle in, uh, the matrix, you know, like, like it's, it's not the message for everyone. That's the message for you and you alone. Right. And so a lot of people will get up and share with the group at the end and closing circle and they'll say, we need to stop using paper. We need to stop, stop wiping our ass with toilet. But we were going through to me and they'll be corrected and say, I, I need this, right? Because it's, that's the message for you. Oh, you know what I'm saying? So like people try to extrapolate everything out that they're given to the world needs and it's like, nobody, that's the message. You know what, that's actually profound. I think a lot of people don't realize because you, you'll feel, you know, moved by something or you want to make a difference. And the first place a lot of people go is I'm going to make this grand thing, you know, change for everybody. Everybody needs to do this thing, but the, but the change always starts with within with yourself. In fact, that's the only thing you really have a lot of control over. And if everybody did that, we'd have what we wanted if we just all focused on that, you know, that, that sovereignty of ourselves. And that's the contribution, you know, like whatever, what if the, if the goal is to change the world? It always starts with you, but, but it doesn't have to be like even among for a long time, I wanted my sister and different family members to do ayahuasca. And it was like, no man, everyone walks their own walk. I had a shop and tell me this in Columbia, everyone gets to walk their own path and the work is for you to do and for you alone and how I change and, and open my heart and give more love and share more knowledge. That's the gift I give to them. It's not having them fucking go to the Amazon with me. Now, do you believe, because I know like some, some shaman will say this too, that it's not necessary to do some of the ayahuasca or drugs to get there and that some people have the capabilities to actually get that deep into meditation that they can receive these types of messages or get the same thing from it. So there's, there's, there's a, I have a couple, a couple thoughts on that. One, there's no way. There's ayahuasca is in his league of its own. It's like, you can fuck it because you're chemically doing some work. You can fucking do all the shit and you can, you can have visuals. You can have visions. I mean, I, I was in Sedona at spirit ranch doing shaman, jelly, like breathwork, similar to holotropic breathwork by Sanislav Grav and I was, I had fucking full blown visions, just like I was using substances with no substance. It was powerful. So you can get there. There's no doubt about that. And I think people that have been meditating consistently daily for, you know, decades on end, there's no doubt they're tapping in. But it's, it's a totally different experience. And it's, and it's always funny. I mean, Paul Chek said this, he's like, it's, it's a comical when people are, are airy fairy about their own path, you know, many, many paths lead up the mountain, right? So if anybody is telling you, this is the way you don't need that other shirt, that's because you haven't fucking had that, you know, it's not for everyone. And I'm not trying to say that. But at the same time, it's a whole different fucking animal. Yeah. I think it's like anything, you know, everybody's like the face of the mountain. Instead of the long road, right? That's what I feel like. I feel like there's lots of ways to get up the mountain. And you can take this a fucking you can take the cigarette. I'm taking the gondola straight to the top. It reminds me of being on the right, the skis on the way up here. And you're like, there's the face of the mountain. It's like, I gotta do all those moguls. We're going straight up. Someone turned it up too fast. Ah, that's crazy, man. So do you, uh, do you ever wear shoes? I wear shoes every now and I actually wore shoes here. I just took them off. Yeah, you did. Because I saw you at Paleo and you're just straight up just walking around barefoot. Yeah, man. I'm walking the walk. Well, that's one of the few places that you could be a public like that. And they probably totally accept it. I can get away with it at Whole Foods here too. I really touched the water and they were fucking cool with it. And my son walks around barefoot everywhere too. So that was, that was sweet. Yeah. It's like a progression because I don't do, were you always, have you been doing that for a long time? Prom, I think more so since I got to on it because it's my first real job. And then it's also at the same time, like, You're cool with it. It's totally fucking chill. It's the culture of it. I don't have to fucking outfit. You know, like why would I wear, and that's the other thing at Paleo FX and also at, at work and on it, it's all concrete slabs indoors. You're still grounding on concrete. Yeah. You know, like if it was asphalt, you're not grounding. That's kind of no point, you know, but I mean on, on concrete, you're still grounding and you're not, it's not the same as being in the fucking ocean where it's actually going to shift quite a bit. Like that's why we feel the way we do when we're in the water. And I certainly miss that about NorCal, but it does mitigate a lot of the EMF and fucking Wi-Fi and all the shit buzzing around at the office. Well, you'd be the guy to ask because you, you do all these things and you test them out on yourself. And I mean, have you noticed that when you go barefoot all the time, what do you notice? I mean, there's a couple of things. One, you're more mindful of where you fucking step. So you can't just float through space. I mean, and sometimes we live close enough to. That's a good point. We live close enough to on it where I can walk home a lot of times and I'll do walking meditation and I'll throw in audible and listen to a book on the walk home. Cause I don't, I no longer have a commute. And I used to love that about the Bay Area. People are, people hate their fucking, their commute. But Aubrey talked about this in his book on the day, mindfulness or mindfulness while you're driving. Cause that could be, that's for a lot of people, the worst time of the day is the fucking morning and evening commute, right? So mindfulness would be practicing meditation while you're driving and not, you know, throw on easy listening instrumental music where you're not taking in and receiving fucking lyrics and things like that and just dropping your mindfulness practice while you're driving or mindfulness, you throw on audible, you throw on a fucking enlightening podcast and you get some information in that time, right? So because we're so close, it's a, I mean, my wife will drop me off with bear and that's like a 10 minute drive tops, but getting to walk home, that's a nice 45 minutes, slow walk and I'll walk barefoot and there's fucking gravel and I have to be mindful of poison ivy. I mean, it's, it's not easy on my feet and that's also something that's, that's incredibly drawing into the present. Like you, I fucking look at every fucking step I take. You know, I can't just. That's a very interesting point. I mean, think of that. It's like you're, you're disconnected completely when you walk around with shoes all the time. So you don't even, you just walk around on, on numb. Yeah, cause you can walk on a pebble and it doesn't hurt whatsoever in your sneakers. You feel it in sneakers. Well, our information, you know, you're receiving to through your feet and your toes and everything else. Ever since we, ever since we met Brink, I just, I started to really pay attention to people's function with their feet and you have incredible function with your feet. I mean, you don't have your feet aren't flat. You don't pronate supine everything seems pretty connected. And I would assume it's probably part of your squats and you know, like it from that perspective. I mean, everything's improved. Especially deadlifts. Squats have improved just from the technique of squatting better, but deadlifting for sure, because I know how to grip the ground with my feet now. Yeah. You know, and that's a big one for any type of hitch, hip hinge movement. You know, those are things that, that really have carry over very quickly. But especially with running like my gate. I thought, I think I mentioned this probably on one of the podcasts we've done, but when I ran the 50 K at 238 pounds with zero fucking injuries, that's for sure a credit to having been in five finger shoes and being barefoot often. Yeah. Well, of course. That's a, I mean, that's a big dude to be running that much. Absolutely. How, how is your training now? What is your workouts look like now? Because you look, you're always, you're always in good shape. You're pretty lean right now. You look a little bigger than last time. Yeah. Are you, are you, are you, are you on gear now or something? Or are you just lifting normally? I'm all gassed up, brother. No, no. Well, it's funny, you know, something you guys had mentioned was, you know, the bounce back that you get after a fast. Yeah. So I just done a five day water fast in Sedona. I finished it with some substances. But I was 222 when I went into the fast and I like being around 220. I feel like that's the medium where I'm strongest, but I'm also the most limber and mobile and it translates well on the mats. I don't like being, you know, over 225. And what's crazy is after the fast, because everybody's like, how much muscle did you lose? How much strength did you lose? And they're like, bitch, all that shit comes back so quick. And then some. And then some. So I'm fucking, I gained eight fucking pounds after the fast. I was so hungry and still eating keto the whole way and gained eight pounds. That's what I've been telling these guys. It's crazy. So I've put on about maybe eight pounds of lean body mass. Now I did change my workout, but I also started fasting for about 48 to 72 hours every month. So at the beginning of every month, I start off that way and it wasn't for muscle gain. It wasn't for fat loss. I did it for, I was doing it for gut health. And then after the first or second time, I'm like, oh shit, I like the, I like the spiritual effects of it, of it and the fact that I can disconnect from food for a few days and I really get just good spiritual and mental work from it. A ton of downloads. But then the side effect of it, which was tripping me out is maybe because my gut is so much healthier. So I'm just assimilating food better, but I'm just building muscle like 10 years ago. To me, it makes the most sense like that. It seems like that you're ringing your system out, right? You're like kind of like a sponge, squeezing everything out because you're fast that everything gets sucked out of your system. And then it's just primed to absorb everything properly. It's no different than taking a day off, working out or something. Right, right. And we live in this like over saturated society, right? We're constantly feeding our faces. We never take more than what five hours from a break from the next meal. So it's like, you can't tell me that we haven't desensitized our entire body and our receptors. Dude, that'll piss off a lot of people fast for muscle gain. You know what I mean? That goes against the grain. It does. For sure. But on that note, I don't train nearly as often as I used to. I kind of fucked my knee up. The last time I did jiu-jitsu hard, I may end up having to take a look with an MRI. Oh, shit. What happened? He'll hook her? Well, similar. It was a knee bar that was off to the side. And so, and I can't even do it on the leg. My left knee where it's fucked up. You feel like your medial ligament might have torn? All that through there. It didn't it didn't pop or anything like that. And the thing is, jiu-jitsu is so humbling regardless. But the fact that I tried to fight that position, that was where I look back on that. Why do you think you tried to fight it? Was it a lower ranked person? He's much smaller than me. And it didn't hurt. So I didn't want to give him the tap. Whereas if I ever get put in that position again, it's like a heel hook. You should tap the second it's there. Dude, you got it. Tap. Let's go back to the next thing. I'll get you next time. That kind of thing. And so the fact that I fought it for so long, I still finished rolling. That would happen early on, and I still finished the whole practice and felt fine. And then later that night, it was hard to walk. And then for a month, it was hard to walk. And then it finally got better. And I was doing yoga with my wife at home. And it fucking popped twice in the most candy ass yoga class. Oh, shit. And it was brutal, man. So now I'm just like, well, maybe I take a look at it later. I don't know. But I'm going to nurse this thing and just give it time. And I can still hinge and work with kettlebells. So I'm doing a lot of stuff. You can use some peptides or anything in that. I'm thinking BPC-157. So I know nothing about this, except for what Ben Greenfield was telling me about it. Greenfield did an amazing ride up on it. And it sounds like a cool robot. BPC-157. BPC-157. Yeah, that and TB-500 are really good at. That's another one. Oh, man. They're really good at healing injuries. And I'm not too familiar with TB-500, but BPC-157 is the same amino acid structure as gastric juice in the gut. Isn't that the one where they did the studies with the rats and they gave it to them and it cured their their Crohn's or whatever? They fucked up shit. Yeah, it's amazing for gut health. Heels in intestinal lining. But they would sever the Achilles on a fucking rat and see how fast it took to reconnect and regrow. And so with BPC-157, you can use it locally right there at the source or you can go subcutaneous and systemic. And they saw like really rapid healing. So it's one of the things where it up regulates collagen uptake and then that can help repair tendon ligament damage. Now, is this gray market, black market? What is it? It's gray market. You know, these things are, their peptides are things that you'd order online that are not for human consumption, for research purposes only. Like if you actually had like everyone ordering this shit has rats at their house, they're going to fucking experiment. You know what's funny? You know what's funny you say that? So after meeting with Ben, I did a little bit of research, just a tiny bit. So I don't know a whole lot, but I would read these forums and when people ask questions about it, they don't, they talk about it as if they have a rat. It's like, so my rat pulled his Achilles. Yeah, meniscus. What do you think I should do? And I'm like, oh, you fuckers, you guys are full of shit. Yeah, I had run BBC 157 before from an adductor pole and it worked really well. So I'm hoping it helps with the knee, but. And would you just go straight local where you feel it? Is it intramuscular if you're doing it local or how's that? I mean, fuck dude, I'm nervous about putting anything in my knee, you know, with an insulin pin or not, you know? So I might just go sub-Q in the knee. I might just go in the gut. We'll see. We'll see. Interesting. How hard does it get to get a hold of that stuff? Online, dude. It's a research chemical. It's fucking. Do you have to reconstitute it and all that shit? Yeah, you got to reconstitute it. So what does it come as powder? Yeah, lift, lifol, lifolized powder. So comes this powder and then you buy the, the back, back stereo, what is it called? So it's like, it's like makes an ACG or HGH real similar very soon and you take it with insulin pin. Same way. Uh-huh. Okay. Oh, that's a trip, man. Just like that. Well, shit. Hopefully it works. You know, it's funny. You were talking about jujitsu. We were just commenting on this. So we went to big techs gym. Have you been there here? Okay. So, uh, our, our, our good buddy Ben Pollock works out there and we walk in and it's like, it's like old school, like iron dungeons. So you have to put it, put up or shut up like you go in there and just like, are you cause like we were hung over the night before everybody gone out and drank. We walk in, we're like, we're not working out. We're just going to film some stuff with Ben and we all ended up working out because of the vibe in there. But the thing that I was commenting on it, in fact, had a conversation with Adam about this, you know, we've been in gyms forever and you go into these like big corporate gyms or these bodybuilder gyms and there's an interesting vibe. Like, you know, people are kind of like, you know, trying to show off or you know, but he's really cool or whatever. It's kind of intimidating, especially if you don't work out. There's three inches in front of the mirror doing curls. Yeah, you know, if you're a new person, you would definitely not feel welcome, right? This place, iron dungeon, chalk, rust on some of the plates, fucking death metal playing right and everybody's like super cool, super. Like if you were a beginner and you walked in there, you'd have like top level power lifters and strength athletes helping you out, you know, it's like super cool environment. We're talking about this. I'm like, you know, it's funny that there's this interesting, you know, stereotype where those are the intimidating gyms, right? But the reality is those are the ones where you'll get the most help and everybody's gonna be the most cool. Oh, the big gorillas are the nicest. The nicest. And you know, we were speculating and I'm like, you know what it is? I'm like, it's because you get your ego checked in a gym like this a lot. Like you walk into a bodybuilder gym and, you know, you're not going to get buried under a squat. You're not doing. You walk into a bodybuilder gym and it's subjective. Yeah. It's about look. Yeah. You know, saying it's like, you know, my biceps look bigger than yours and my chest. Right. And there's no, we could debate it back and forth on who looks better. So like that. Right. And so jujitsu is like that. Symmetry is off, bro. Yeah, exactly. But I was telling him jujitsu is kind of like that. Like if you go into jujitsu school and you've got a big old ego and you think you're a bad ass, you're going to get humbled. Everybody gets humbled in jujitsu. So everybody seems to be super chill and cool. And a lot of times you get humbled by a guy smaller than you, which is very humbling. You know, a hundred percent. It's that whole, that whole vibe of, you know, where you go in and I think that's probably one of the biggest things that I learned from jujitsu. And it's just, what is your, you're still trained quite a bit. Yeah. You know, it's, I competed. It was a solo match. Wait, recently? Eight minute rounds. No, it was at one, eight minute round, submission only at the on an Invitational seven last November. Oh, okay. And I wasn't in shape for that. I was traveling. I went on an L con right in the last week of my hard training. So, and I wasn't getting hard training on the L con. You know, I was putting in mileage, but it's not the same, you know, and showed up for that. And I lost really due to cardio. So I was like, all right, fuck, man, that's the, that's, that's the last time I will ever lose because of cardio. If I choose to compete, you know, I have this idea that when I retired from fighting, I don't like doing high intensity intervals. I don't like training in that way. But it's like, if I'm going to fucking compete again, whether there's money on the land or not, it doesn't matter from not getting paid to do it. I need to show up, right? Well, you're a competitor. Yeah. If I'm going to compete. And so, you know, I had some time off after that match and then was getting back into it. And we actually had Rob Wilson out from Art of Breath. They did an Art of Breath seminar at on it. And it was fucking amazing. And I just felt so good. And he's getting into jiu-jitsu with Brian Mackenzie. So we jumped in class together. And this was the day I got hurt. But in that day, I felt so much better I felt like my cardio was better than when I had competed. And it had been four months since I had put in a full practice. And what was that from, the breath stuff that he was teaching? Yeah, the breath stuff, but also having put in more high intensity intervals in between that, right? So, I mean, I truly enjoyed jiu-jitsu. It's something, it'll be a lifelong practice. And I want my children to do it. And what do you feel like it gives you? It's one of those things where I was speaking on a panel, which I didn't really want to be on. It was the death of the American male. And there was three women and three guys. And I was like, this could be fucking... And they put you on there? All bad. Yeah, dude. And it turned out to be... Actually, you're the perfect one. Damn, I wish I was that. You're the perfect person. It was, it was beautiful. But, you know, Aubrey hit me up the day before. He was like, dude, you're speaking on this fucked up panel, man. It could be all bad, bro. This is a PR nightmare. You know, I'm like, fuck. I was going to lay in bed awake anyways. It would be hilarious. So, thank you. But, yeah, it went great. But one of the things I was trying to focus on was like, look, we can talk about all the reasons we got here. But let's focus on how do we archetype that? How do we construct that archetype of a model male, American or not? And so I think there are things that we can, anytime, and this is the same with cold therapy, but when you can put yourself in the face of danger and fear in a fucked up situation that's not fun, and you can stay calm in the storm, that fucking extrapolates out to everything else in life. It has carry over to everything you do. And that's, I mean, in the cold, you can't get in there and start fucking huffing and puffing, whim-huff breathing in the cold. You can do that before and after, but not in the tank. You have to slow everything down. Yeah, and dip in a parasympathetic. And so that translates back out, the body remembers. So the next time you get cut in traffic, if you take that deep, slow breath, the body remembers, it shifts back into parasympathetic. You're not in fight or flight anymore. And so I feel that from Jiu-Jitsu. I feel that my baseline stress levels from work, from family life, from being a dad, all that shit gets dumbed down. It's quieted when I'm on the mats more often. Is it rare to see a hothead that does Jiu-Jitsu? Early on, I knew a guy that was a hothead and a dick. They're pretty rare. They don't last. They don't. They get either super hurt a lot or they just leave because their ego can't take it. Well, people will stop rolling with them, too. I would avoid that guy. It'd be like, I'm going to sit this one out, or I'm going to, I got this guy this round. He's going to keep pulling. Yeah. And I would just, those guys kind of want, they hunt for the bigger dudes or guys that are fighters or whatever. So I mean, there's targets wherever you go. But at the same time, it's like, I'll fucking pick guys ahead of time. My next two rounds and then the next two rounds and just keep doing shit like that to avoid those people. But yeah, I don't, I think they, they, if they stick around long enough, they learn. If they don't stick around long enough, then they never learn. What do you think about the progression of, because I haven't did Jiu-Jitsu for, it's been at least 10 years and it's like, the fucking sport has changed so much since I stopped training. Feels like it exploded, yeah. Well, I mean, it's growing like crazy. Partially, I think it's podcasting. A lot of podcasters do Jiu-Jitsu and that new media is just spreading everything. Well, Oprah Winfrey has been fucking talking about it. Joe Rogan is what I mean. Oh, that's not the first one. Oprah. Dr. Oz is a fucking blue belt now. Her side mouth. I mean, she's a badass. When the Oprah's side mouth. Her side mouth. She lays on you. Had me on belly. Yeah, when the Oprah Winfrey of podcast fucking drops Jiu-Jitsu and like, you know, talks about it nonstop. But it's, it's, it's evolved so much now where you're talking about leg locks and stuff like that. When I was training, it was, you did them, but it was still frowned upon. And now you're seeing like leg locks are, have taken on a whole new fucking game, man. It's really evolved. And I, you know, I got my black belt a couple years ago and it was a different system with checkmat. And then I fucking love that system. Those are my guys. Like I'll always be a checkmat black belt and come into Austin and working on it. They have a 10th planet studio there. So it's like, I'm not going to go find the checkmat in town. Sure. I only train when I'm at work, which is a sweet deal that Aubrey allows that to happen. Like while you're on the clock. You have a very sweet deal. I can walk 20. And I know we talk about this every time we see you, but you have, you have created the life yourself. I, you know, I'm sure there's people that are listening because we did go right into psychedelic talk right away that like probably turned their minds off. Ooh, but I'll tell you what, something about you that you cannot deny is you have definitely created for yourself a very. Kyle is a closer. Looks like the secret was right the whole time. The secret was right. Wish it into existence. Oh man. But yeah, man, I walked 20 yards from my, from my cubicle to the jujitsu mats, you know, which is the cubicle that you're never in because you're normally laying outside. I'm doing fucking Tai Chi and shit. Yeah, I get trolled all the time, but the girls in the office, they're like optimizing. And I've got fucking little led goggles on while I'm doing deep meditation is literally laying on the floor on the fucking concrete under my desk. I'll just fucking throw it on the, on the, on the IG. But yeah, jujitsu has been great, you know, and getting back to learning this new system, like it's a 10th planet jujitsu is one of Eddie Bravo's schools. Yeah. And he's a fucking jujitsu wizard. He's just a nerdy, geeks out on it. And a lot of people give him shit for making a name for every single position and every single move. And it's, it's cool though. I love it. It's cool to see like, hey, all right, I'm in truck position and there's fucking all these different finishes from here and all these different transitions from here. So it's learning. It's like learning a second language. Oh, I love it. It's learning how to speak again. It's so, um, I love all the innovators. I love it when people come in and when I, so 10, when I was training 10 years ago, I would go on YouTube and look up catch wrestling and looking up all the positions that catch, which now you see a lot of them. But back then I would, you know, throw a, you know, a net crank on someone. And they'd be like, what the fuck was that? What'd you get there? Like YouTube. Matt Fry, you know, whatever. Yeah, Eric Paulson, Josh Barnett, lots of good shit there. Dean Lister started with catch wrestling. Yes. Yes. Dean Lister is actually the reason why leg locks have taken off. He was the first dude to fuck crush people. He was one of the, he is a leg lock master, but his time in New York at Henzos and, uh, Danahers, Danahers, one of those nerds. And he would just take fucking notes religiously. I think, I think at the time, Danher talked about this on Rogans, but I think at the time Lister was a purple belt and he was just so legit on the legs, Danher realized like, there's a lot to this. And so all of his guys, like they're the leg-locking now crew, you know, and they're, that's Gary Tonin and I know you guys have had them on. Eddie Wolverine Cummins and Gordon Ryan, who's just fucking blown up on the scene. And they're all just really, that's the fucking lineage. And that's one of those cool things. It's like, just as young enough where you can look back and say like, who you got your black belt from, who they got theirs from, who they got theirs from. Like you can watch the fucking family tree. And it's pretty rad to see that system because as people develop different parts of the game, that accelerates until everyone rises up to that level. And then a different part of the game comes out. People figure it out. So like you'll see like a new move or position. This is what I love. And then you'll see, oh shit, this guy's killing everybody with this, whatever. And then before you know it, everybody's figured it out and they move on to something else. You know, you guys had a huge presence this year at Paleo. I noticed that with just everything. You had the jujitsu tournament going on outside and then you guys had a booth. Yeah. Is it, I noticed bulletproof wasn't there this year and there was a couple of the booths. Was it smaller this year overall? No, I think it's bigger this year because remember last year they had the jujitsu mats inside. So the middle area where there's all the workout stuff, that was fucking huge last year. That's right. And with the jujitsu mats outside for the tournament, that whole workout area is smaller. And they still filled in way more vendors than they had last year. But yeah, you know, Tate Fletcher didn't come back this year with K-Man Coffee. There was a few people that dropped out, but a lot of new people showed up. So why do you think people dropping out is anything, or is it just because? I have some ideas, but you know, I got to be politically correct. Got it. So I'm not sure. It is growing. What are people saying? The other people. The other people say it on the streets too. What are the, what are the streets? Yeah, what's going on with the rats? Tell us. Fuck you guys. What are the rats taking? Well, we were, you know, we were, to me, I thought it seemed more organized. So therefore I think people thought it was smaller. So I think they look like they had more people on staff. And I know that was a complaint. We have buddies that didn't show up this year and so that will remain nameless. And I know that the knock that they kind of had was, oh, it wasn't as, you know, they're just not as organized. But I felt this year they had stepped up the organization. I felt that it was bigger, there was a bigger staff, more people. I was fucking completely taken care of. Obviously my experience this year was worlds different from my experience last year. Oh yeah. You know, I've spoken about that a lot. How funny it was, you know, like walking around with you guys and Sal's like, hey man, you gotta, you gotta meet my buddy Kyle. You know, everybody's like, oh, you guys are mind-pump. And they'd fucking give you like, instead of the sample bag, they give you like a giant box of whatever the fuck they sell. And then like, do you guys sponsor podcasts? Like, oh yes, here's the CEO's fucking business card. And yes, we'd love to be on your show. That was just a year ago. I know, it was just a year ago. You know, and their salary is just me. And they're like, hey, my buddy's starting a podcast. They're like, oh, how many episodes do you have? And I was like, oh, I've recorded seven, but I haven't released one yet. Like, oh, you're starting a podcast. I felt fucking infinitely small. And now you're the big dick walking around in that room. Swing in that day. How fucking, tell me how awesome that feeling is when you walk in and you're like, hey, remember me from last year, motherfucker? It wasn't like that, but it was cool. It was cool. You know, I liked the schedule a lot. I thank Michelle Norris for that. All my talks were on Friday on the first day. What talks did you do? You did the one on the man. A panel, the death of the American male with John Durant. Did that go well, by the way? It was a clip notes on it. It really did go well. Well, I mean, they looked into the Me Too movement, things like that. And really, like, is that empowering for women or is it disempowering? Can we talk about that a little bit? Because I don't know a lot about it. I hear all of it. And I'll have to be careful with my words here because, you know, ultimately, it's not a huge win to be correct in that, right? Right. But I do have thoughts on it. And the truth is, it's nice to, anytime we can raise awareness to things, it's important. But at the same time, it can draw us into a culture of blame and us versus them, right? And I compare it to the political climate. What do we see now? The right is extremely right. The left is extremely far left. And it's gonna, that gap has widened and widened. And over time, it will fucking collapse back in on itself. And we will have a true centrist movement where people do see the positives of both sides. Like, you know, I want to fucking have control over my body. I think I should be able to do psychedelics. And maybe it's not a bad idea that I can own a gun. Right. Or whatever the fuck, fill in the fucking blank. Just not at the same time. Yeah. Not at the same time. So, I mean, but that's the thing. Like we can actually see it. I mean, if we really pay attention and we're not triggered and drawn in to fight the fight of us versus them or the blame game, then we can. It opens up our field of vision. I think what's happening right now is actually extremely clear from my point of view. I think there definitely is a crisis of masculinity, but it's not what some people are saying where there's too much of it or it's toxic. It's the opposite. So, what is the definition of the me too though? The issue here, we'll jump into me too, but the issue of masculinity is, why is it the death of the American male? Right? So, you can get into that. What does real masculinity look like? Well, I don't know that we should call it the death of the American male because I can't look back on America and say, we should have, like, what is it? Fucking 1950s man that we're trying to emulate. No, that's not cool either. I'm saying are the slave owners initially? Like, yeah, they're great thinkers. They own slaves. So, like, there's fucking, there's pros and cons to every fucking male that's ever been in America. If we take it back to tribal settings and things like that, I think there's a lot of benefit we can see there. Even in matriarchies, not just the patriarchy, right? But this comes from, we've been in a patriarchy for so long and we're seeing the ramifications of that. And yeah, maybe, right? And so there's an excellent book that I recommend people read. It's called Iron John by Robert Bly. And he breaks down the poem of Iron John. But he'll say the poetry and then he'll stop out of the poem to break down all the mythology and everything that he'll fucking put it in layman's terms for people. Yeah, no, it's, here's the thing. When they say the death of the American male, what they're talking about is not how American men were in the 1950s or 40s or 30s. They're talking about the romanticized version of what the American man was. When you look at the old ads of the dude with the suit and he's got like, he's out fun, he takes care of his family and he's really responsible and he's honest. And that's what I heard. The kids listen to him. Yeah, that's what they're referring to, which is, you know, but, but I think what we're seeing now is definitely a crisis of masculinity in the sense that record levels. Men are leaving their women with their children. That alone is a major, like people don't realize how big of an impact that has on a society where children are being raised without fathers where the dad's just fucking peace. I'm out of here and they refuse. Here's what masculinity is. It's responsibility. And you can say that about femininity too, but you have a lot of, because we don't have a biological clock. That's one of the reasons why we get away with this. Like I'm a 35 year old fucking child and I'm parting every day and I don't really care about responsibility and who cares? I don't need to, you know, worry about all those other things because I can just take care of myself. Women have a different, they have a different pressure on them because they, you know, they're biological clock. And so you see a lot of guys just not fucking taking responsibility and that's the crisis that I think we're talking about. That comes from not being heard, you know. So there's a thing where women want to have a voice. And is that where the meat should be? As they fucking should. No, me too is literally the rape shit that was going on. I was groped. I was fucking, it's the sexual issues that were going on in Hollywood largely. Harvey Weinstein shit. So, and that movement does shed light and there's a lot of men that came in, Terry Crews fucking threw a hashtag mean to fucking hit on by his agent and said he was getting followed around in traffic and all sorts of weird shit. You know, I mean, it goes deep in Hollywood but again, is that empowering to do that? I think it creates division and at the same time, there's a lack of, if we don't take ownership over ourselves, it's disempowering. And that's not to say that, you know, they were asking for it or they knew what they were doing. It's nothing to say with that. John Durant had a great point. He's like, look, Harvey Weinstein's a fucking scumbag. He had what's coming to him. You know, like there's no two ways about that. But if you're telling me that you're going to go to his house for dinner at night solo and not think anything else is on the table, that's just, I mean, are you a child? Should we take, you know, absolve you of all responsibility and action? That's what a child is, right? So you have to take some ownership of that. And he was like at 930 at night, do you think it's an issue? At 1 a.m., do you think it's an issue? At 3 a.m. And these are literally the times they were showing up at the house. So like you have to take some ownership of that. At least it's a possibility. Yeah. Right. And there's, there's... Well, a lot of what people need to realize and it sucks because taking responsibility is so difficult, but yet it's actually not as difficult as being a victim. Being a victim is actually far more difficult to taking responsibility. And people need to understand, I'll give you a great, easy and easy example that nobody will disagree with. It's like when people complain about like, like people will be like, oh, why are the Kardashians so famous? They're so dumb. Like, why are they fuck? Who cares? And it's like, we're the ones buying the stupid magazine covers and giving them money. And talking about them, and talking about them constantly. That's the responsibility that I'm talking about. I was like, we have the power. If we want to shut that down, if Weinstein, if they wanted to shut him down, they could have. People can. They could have done that, right? And then we're rumored. Stop watching his movie stuff, talking about him stuff. Or just, or just not giving him business. Like, there were rumors have been going around for a long time about him. In fact, you can watch old videos where people would joke about it in interviews. Like, oh, make sure you don't go to Weinstein's house and they'd all, ha, ha, ha, ha. Everybody knew, but nobody wanted to stop it, you know, or nobody wanted to stand up. And it's like, we have the power. Yeah. We have the power to control these things a lot of times. Yeah. I think, I think there's, I don't know. I mean, and again, we could go back, it is touchy. We could go back and forth on all the reasons and all the this and all the that. But ultimately, I tried to focus on, what are the take-homes? Like, how do we reconstruct that? And I think single sports is a big one, especially for young males with the whole, everyone gets a fucking participation award and everyone will get equal playing time. Team sports are being destroyed right now. My daughter's playing basketball. She's eight years old. They don't keep, they don't keep score. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Terrible. They don't keep score. Exactly. You're back, I'm sorry. Hold on a second. Let me correct myself. The adults don't keep score. Guess who keeps score? The kids. The kids know. Yeah. My daughter will come out and be like. Kids give a fuck. They do. They give a fuck. Rightfully so. You want to play to win. And that's why I think single sports will rise. Wrestling will rise. Jiu-jitsu will rise because they're incredibly important for fucking kids to go through that, to know what loss feels like, to how to deal with that, to learn. That's one of the things Jordan Peterson talks about is like, are we creating this fucking safety bubble, this safe place for kids, all the way through fucking college and university where when they make it out into the real world, they're not prepared for fucking real life. They're not prepared for the workforce. They're not at any adversity. They've had no, it's cutthroat, man. It's sink or swim, you know. And so how do we prepare people for that? You know, men and women, but especially young men. My favorite quote is, you know, you don't want to make your kids safe, you want to make them strong. Not because you don't want to make your kids safe, but because you can't completely make your kids safe, unless you lock them in a box. You can't control everything. Which that's terrible. You would never want to do that. So you'd want to make them strong so they could deal with, you know, what happens in the real world. Like I'm not going to be able to completely, it would be impossible for me to never have my kids be introduced or around, let's say hard drugs or stuff like that. Like let's say I'm a parent. I'm like, I never want my kids around drugs. At some point, they may be exposed to these things. So I want to equip them with the confidence and the, in themselves to be able to make the right decision for themselves. That's the best thing you could possibly do. Not to like, let me cover you and protect you all the time. It's impossible. That'll never, what are you going to do with that? So did you, in either that talk, or did you see any other talks? Was there ever any controversy or was there any good heated debates that went on this weekend? No, no, not that I know of. And that talk went surprisingly well, you know, and then I had a solo talk on cognitive optimization, which was awesome. I thought they were going to have me often some fucking obscure room with like five people. I saw the video of that. Yeah, it was dope, man. You were up on the stage. There was maybe five open seats. There were people standing watching. It was, it went really well. What'd you talk about? Cognitive optimization. It's just different like things to do. Well, what I want to, my, I guess the synopsis was how do, how does everything affect the brain? You know, we usually think like if I want to optimize cognitive function, I'll take a new tropic, I'll take coffee, those kind of things, but really tying together what posture and movement does for blood flow to the brain and diving into diet, you know, like even if you're not going to go keto, understanding which carbohydrates are right for you, how that affects insulin response, everything from inflammation to the fucking hitting the wall when you're in the afternoon, like everybody talks about brain fog or fucking five hour energy has a commercial all about this shit, right? And it's like, you can either take this shitty supplement or you can pay attention to the food that you put in your body, how much that impacts the brain cognitive function and just cellular energy at the mitochondrial level. Right? So taking a deeper dive into that bio acts like trans direct cranial stem to how we can influence through brain wave entrainment, did you prepare for this with slides and shit? No, man, it's funny because the lady I came up after had this beautiful presentation with slides and shit, and I made a joke about it, they just give you a little ear piece so you can walk around and I was like, yeah, I was even going to have handouts with a lot of the science that supported it because thankfully we've got Dr. Vince Kripke is a PhD yet on it, now just had him for the last month peeling through research to back up everything I was going to say. There's a lot of people looking, especially with you guys, you're a bro, you fucking have a body. What are you fucking going to tell me? Because I got up there, I was a little self deprecating. I'm like, I'm not a doctor. That was the first thing I said. And people kind of chuckled and you had to open to that. But yeah, I have a reason to learn this stuff. Having been punched in the face many times, playing football since I was 10, I really wanted to take the deep dive in all the ways I could optimize my brain and help heal the brain because I certainly have been put through the ringer. Of all the things that you do with your position and stuff, which ones make you the most? Because you're speaking in front of a crowd. Now, you don't ever come across as somebody who's nervous, but do you ever get nervous? Do you ever get anxious? Like, what's the most difficult part of what you do? Well, I mean, I've spoken in front of large crowds many times, especially doing tours for the troops. We would do three or four different bases in a day sometimes. And I'd speak in front of pretty large crowds. Were you nervous back then? I mean, was there ever a time that you were nervous? No, I've always felt like I had the gift to gab. Like, public speaking was never a fear of mine, and it always cracked me up. I would feel, you know, like, if you ever watch a comedian bomb on stage, like those fucking mirror neurons that are kicking in. Oh, my bad. Fuck. Like, I feel so dude. People want to hackle, and I just feel terrible for them. And I feel that way when I see somebody get up and speak nervously. Like, you can see the panic or the fear, and it's like, I gotta fucking take a deep breath for them, you know what I'm saying? But I've never had that issue. And oddly enough, I got nervous for the death of the American male because it, you know, Aubrey's text the night before the topic and the fact that it's equal parts women and men. Like, I didn't know the way they were going to take it. And surprisingly, they had great takes that were not pro male, but pro fucking human, you know. And that was a beautiful thing. It made it easy. But what was cool, and I was telling John Durant that was like, that was the hardest talk I had. And to get that over with first, made everything else a fucking cakewalk. So when I went up solo, it was like, I fucking know this shit. Let's crush it. And, you know, they're up there and they'll give you like the 10, you know, 10 fingers when you have 10 minutes left and they hold up a little sign for five and then one and then game over. And I wanted to, I wanted to split the talk to 50% Q&A. But I barely got through everything with no Q&A. So I just told everybody, she was holding like shaking the game over sign at me to get the fuck off stage. I was like, I'm sorry. I'm just getting into it. I was like, I fucking didn't get to touch on micro dosing. I didn't get to touch on this. Please see me over here. I'll make sure answer everyone's questions. And so like fucking at least half the crowd stayed after to come up and shake my hand and meet me and get my business card. It was dope, man. It was really cool. And then the final panel we had was on biohacking and that was with Ben Greenfield and two other guys that I hadn't met before that were just as fascinating because they know we're buddies with Ben and I followed him religiously. I've learned half the shit I know on biohacking from Ben. So it was really cool to get different perspectives from the other two guys that were biohackers in different ways, you know? Bro, what a trip. You were on a panel with Ben who I know is somebody you followed for a long time before and looked up to you. That must be awesome. Is that fucking weird or what? Yeah, Merkola was supposed to be on that panel too who's another guy that I've really learned a lot from. What's been the biggest learning curve for you doing all this like? What's been the most difficult of it? With getting... And with all of it, yeah. To speak or just... No, all of it, like, yeah. Even we're going to on it. Even a podcast thing. I wanted to get into on it with you guys. It's kind of neat. I totally forgot. It was just a year ago when we literally were coming down. That was the beginning of your relationship with Aubrey and on it and going off with that. So it's, yeah, you've now been cranking away at that position for quite some time. I always see the on it podcast up in the top now. I mean, I know it must be performing well and so what has on it been like for you and what's in the future there? What's happened over the last year? Kind of recapped out for us. Fuck, I think the hardest part was the transition because getting fired while I'm on the airplane, literally in the airport to fly, to on it, for an interview, getting fired with no severance. That was where it was like, fuck man. So when I got to on it, it was hit the ground running. You know, I was fucking using modafinal way too often and slamming a half a pot of coffee each day. And I was so jacked to the gills of trying to perform and prove my worth and just work, work, work, work, work, work that I wasn't taking any time for myself. You know, there was no working in as Paul check puts it and really finding that balance. It was when Aubrey sent me to Sedona with my wife where I really got to unplug because you go through a detox there and there's no caffeine and shit like that. And I had fucking pretty bad caffeine withdrawals. And but meditating there, I realized like, fuck, I have not, I would schedule meditation and shit like that on, on just, you know, even just caffeine, like too much caffeine. And whatever that baseline is where you drop in a deep meditation in your inflow, I could never get there because my baseline, I mean, rose so fucking high. Like how am I going to drop back down anywhere even close to that? To a good point. Right. And that's why they say to meditate first thing in the morning or right before you go to bed because you're calmer. You're already in the parasympathetic, right? So I think that was a huge learning curve for me was realizing like I can still get, I can get more accomplished and better if I actually take time for myself to unplug, you know. You were probably operating a little bit out of fear. Like I got to prove I got to prove it. It was a hundred percent. That's what I'm saying. You know, that's, it was a hundred percent fear based. And that's, that's made work so much more enjoyable and so much more efficient and effective. And, and Aubrey. You've proven, you've proven your worth for sure. No doubt, you know, we've doubled in the, in less than a year, I think at the six month mark we had doubled the downloads per episode. Oh, wow. For the on and positive guys. Yeah, dude. Thanks to having guys like mine pump on. You guys are number three all time, all right? All time, man. Who are the two ahead of us? Number one is Aubrey from on the day and that's a given. Oh yeah. If everyone wants to listen to that. That's cheating. It's cheating. Yeah. And then I read, oh come on man. I read the book three times. So prior to interviewing him, so there's no doubt. I was the best interviewer for Aubrey's on the day launch. And I think that, that really struck a chord with a lot of people. So obviously, you know, if a podcast is good, people are going to tell their friends about it. We'll do another one. We sucked last time. No, no, we'll do it. I'm coming back to the Bay in May. I had too much Alphabrain. We never told it. We got it up so high that we crashed. Yeah, for sure. I'm not even on Alphabrain right now and I feel good. I'm going to run someone I get home. But yeah, when I come back in May, I want to interview you guys in the mine pump studio. Fuck yeah. And you guys can drop box me that shit. Hell yeah. Hell yeah, that'd be awesome. Who was the other one? So you had Aubrey and who's number two? Mark Smelly Bell. Oh, oh no. We're doing another one. Yeah, man. We'll let the CEO of Audit beat us maybe. But hey, man, Bell was the first guy to crack 40,000. He hit, yeah. Yeah, he's got a big following. But we'll get there. I mean, you guys will be at 40,000 by the time we record again. But yeah, I mean, Bell will probably be at 50, then. All right. So. Little jab. He knows exactly how to get us to him. Look at you. I'll get that interview. We'll schedule that. But yeah, you know, like the podcast doubling in numbers, working in product development, I'm finally now seeing. It takes so fucking long to have an idea of a supplement, to do the research, to fucking put all the ingredients together, to source it, to place the PO, to get the label done. It takes, and they're, thank God, there's a giant fucking team of experts that I work with in that. So I have a mind of, and I'm the office guinea pig. So I try shit out. And I'm probably the, you know, out of all the people in product development outside of Aubrey, I train the hardest, you know, and I've been a professional athlete. So really testing shit first as the guinea pig to see, like, does this work? Does it fucking impact me positively, negatively? That is such an important point, dude. Because when you're, when you're fit, when you're really fit, and you eat well, that's when you can tell what's working, what's not. When you're not doing that shit, how do you fucking know, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to tell. So important. And you got to, I mean, we got to weed through a lot of bullshit. You know, there's a lot of bullshit in the supplement. It's no different when you're a supplement company making supplements. We go to, I just went to the supply side east out in Chicago, New Jersey with a couple guys from the, from the team, well guy and the girl. And, you know, they see the fucking on and on your badge and it's like, I got this, you guys got to use it. You can put in this product. I mean, fucking everyone and their mom comes up to you to say, use this thing. It's the next greatest thing. You know, and we're not a, we're not a performance company. We're not a longevity company. We're not a sports nutrition company. We're doing more of that with exos now as a partner, but we want people to feel shit. You know, like that's the name of the game. It's not like, take my word for it. This is going to help you long-term. Like I want you to fucking feel different. You know, so I think having those things start to fucking come to fruition and manifest like literally, I know that's every fairy wording, but. Sounds like you have something in production that you're, yeah. I have many around it. I have many babies in the womb that are about to be fucking birth and I am so fucking pumped for it. And I wish I could talk about them, but that's a big no-no. Sure, sure. But you need people to test it for you, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, we all fucking throw you guys some shit. You will fucking love it. All right, all right. You will love, you will love this version. Now, can I take it orally or do I have to keyster it? Keep going, keep going. Everything seems to be keystering these days. Over there. You need a pea shooter and another person to do the applying. A pea shooter? I'll blow it up the pea shooter. Can we talk about it? Can we talk about our good friend, Ben? Did you see him? He actually instastoried his whole fucking coffee at him. Did you watch that? No. But did you see him fucking pre and post eating shit? Excuse me. Oh, you mean that green wine. I mean, he didn't eat fecal matter. Okay, okay. Oh, I wouldn't be surprised that he would do something. I was going to say, I would do that. He did that. Frozen poop capsule for the microbiome. I'm sure that's in his future. No, when you mean when he fell off his bed. Yeah, he was that. He was that on a hanger. We were in the sauna fucking off and just catching up. And it's funny because he was like, I need a bike. Do you know anybody in town? And I was like, yeah, man, let me hit up Lance Armstrong. Name drop. And so I hit up Lance. And he was going to fucking get a bike from Lance's shop, Mello Johnny's out in Austin. And he ended up going with like this elliptigo. That's what Adam was talking about. I didn't even know that. I was like, that's why he got hit because he was riding his stupid bike. Well, you guys know in the Bay Area, I mean, how many fucking tech dorks are on like this? Thank you. I created this cool bike that nobody else has. Like it doesn't look as efficient as a bicycle. It's exactly what I said. It looks so much harder. It's a road bike. You look like that. You're looking or going to die on that thing. So sure enough, I mean, he grazed the side mirror. I don't even think the car realized that he grazed it. But I mean, he went face first in the fucking ground. This is the day before Paleo FX. Most of his talks are on Friday also. And he hits me up. And it's what's funny is my wife and I always laugh that he always has the Zoolander look. He's got the potty lips. And so his face was fucked, man. He hurt his neck and he's like, yeah, blue steel. But he writes to me, he's like, do you know any kairos in town? And I was like, I know too. Let me let me let me check in with him. But he sent me screenshots or selfies of his fucking face. He still looks so goddamn handsome. I was like, damn, dude, you ate shit. But fuck you look good. So he was able to get adjusted. Yeah, man, it was a fucking tough deal. But that's funny. I mean, it's like, well, you did go with the elliptical. That was your first mistake. So what happens if these supplements that you're in charge of kind of getting going, if they succeed and stuff, what happens with you? Does that elevate you? Pay raises around the fucking clock, brother. Exactly. No, I don't know. I don't think it's incremental like that. But at the same time, you know, yeah, you show a dollar amount that you're creating for the company. I mean, I think there's your gold, man. They fucking they struck some gold with you, brother. Without sharing your your personal finances and stuff like that. How does your your pay structure work? You know, do you are you a salaried employee? Do you do make the commission? Do you are I'm salary full time, no commission. And, you know, on it really does have probably the best benefits package in the world. I have nothing to compare that to, but everyone we've talked to, all your jobs, all my jobs. It's way better than the U of C's insurance. Just having a 401k is much better than the U of C's retirement plan. Wow. The non-existent retirement plan. But yeah, I mean, the 401ks guys were like, we work with many different companies and nobody has the structure you guys have, you know. So it's really cool. Well, they pay for education. They pay for all that. Yeah, we get 5,200 a year and continued education. Oh, wow. So it's fucking sick, you know. And that covers it's not just like, yeah, we'll pay that tuition and then you got to fly there and pay for your own hotel. Like that's all included, you know. Wow. Oh, that's cool. It's really cool. And there's so many things that goes. I've mentioned this before, they're probably pissing people off, but 50% off massages, they do copay massages, copay stretching, copay fucking body work that you can have done in the office on the clock. Yeah, that's dope. It's like, yeah, I'm gonna go to the massage room and fucking get a massage. For 90 minutes on the clock. Not mad at half off. Yeah. It's, you know, it's a fucking, it's a beautiful fucking thing. So, I mean, it's, we're in a spot now where things have really taken off in different ways, you know, especially having a family wanting to be the provider. My wife's a stay-at-home mom. She's doing yoga teacher training and things like that. But even when she finishes her first 200 hours, she's not gonna jump right into teaching full-time. She wants to have 500 hours before she really teaches consistently. So, it's nice being the solo income earner to know like we're not just getting by. We're planting seeds for the future. And that's really important. You know, I want to ask you about your family because, you know, I really appreciate when I'm around families, you know, and you can feel that they're just a good energy with them. And you and your wife and with your son, you guys have such an incredible dynamic. I mean, you can really feel the love and you guys are very open and it's just awesome. Can you talk about, like, what's your approach with all that? How does that, because you guys, I mean, just a great dynamic. Yeah, I think, I mean, there's a couple of things that I think go into that. One, there's a willingness to change and grow together. And I think that's massive. It's something I didn't have in the last seven-year relationship I was in. We grew apart over time, you know, and that happens to a lot of people. But I know, like, this is somebody I can grow old with, you know, and because that baseline criteria of I'm willing to do the work. And what I mean by that is, like, I've done ayahuasca with my wife 12 times, we've dropped in with heroic doses of psilocybin many times. Our first experience together was psilocybin with my old coach, who's a Native American. And I brought an ounce to a Tamas call, you know, at Native American Sweat Lodge. And it was going to be with three other fighters from the fight team and the two of us and all three backed out while we're on the drive. So I get there and I tell my coach, like, hey, you know, give us whatever you think is the right dose. And then the rest is yours as a thank you. And he was like, oh, thank you very much. He took fucking two caps out of the bag for himself and had us split the rest. Oh, shit, see you get this. And my wife had never done anything. She had never even smoked weed. And she's looking at this. She's like, and we had to chew them. They weren't ground or capsulated or anything like that. So we're just chewing relentlessly for like 30 minutes through a bag of mush. It was 13 and a half grams each. Holy shit. And it's right before you go into a 45 minute sweat lodge. And she's like, is this a lot? And I was like, no, no, I'm looking at like fuck. I've never done this. But I also, I trust you. She's tiny. Your wife is tiny. She's 110, 115 pounds. Yeah. Yeah. She's a small first. She's half my body weight. But I mean, there's courage in taking steps into the unknown. And also, I mean, I don't fucking recommend people take that high of a dose. However, we had incredible guidance. It was an incredibly safe space. We're on a Native American reservation. But you guys just seem like a team, though. I mean, forget about all the things that those, whatever your practices are, because I feel like. Those were experience, what I'm getting at is those experiences really helped us. They shifted us because shit was rocky in the beginning. I drank like a fucking piece of shit. I wanted to be out of my mind and didn't realize it. It wasn't like, I wasn't drinking because I was sad or upset or depressed or anything like that. It was, I just want to have a good time. But I would always just fucking drink myself under the table. And I wasn't an angry drunk or anything like that, but ultimately it was not healthy. And her trying to keep up with that was not healthy. And I think being able to see things with new eyes, which often those ceremonies do, has been a refresher for us and it's helped us come closer together. But it is that willingness to work. It's the willingness to be able to communicate better, to fucking talk and say the things that most people don't say to one another that helps us grow. Yeah, you guys just seem like such a tight team and you guys prioritize your son so much every time I see you guys all together. How old is your boy now? He'll be three next month. Now, are you guys gonna, is he gonna go to, are you gonna put him in school? Is he gonna go to home school? How does that happen? My wife was home schooled. We've talked about that. Going up to see Greenfield at his house. I really expected his kids to be home schooled because he was home schooled kid through 12. But he talked about not being able to play well with others and a lot of the shortcomings of that and wanting that for his kids. Also the fact that he travels so much, you know, he thought it would be wise to put him in private school. And then, you know, when they're done, that's when he's done. When the second they get home, he makes sure he's completely done with work and that's when he teaches them all the shit they don't learn in school. How to forge for wild mushrooms. Oh, he's a great dad. And food, how to fucking, how to bow hunt, all the cool shit, right? So I think you can have that balance. And so that's really struck a chord with me because we were considering homeschooling for a long time. I think I lean away from that now just because of the fact that I do travel a lot for work. I got a lot of shit going on. And that's a lot to ask of her. It's a lot. It's a lot to ask of her. Well, you know, the old mentality, because I, so I had two clients that were really into the homeschool space or world. And they did an excellent job with their son. He was in third grade. You know, he had trouble in school and the, you know, the teachers like, oh, he's got learning differences this and that. You know, the public school system can be, you know, we want to put them on this. We want to put them on that. So they decided to homeschool him and they did an excellent job. And their son is definitely a very intelligent, eccentric kid, but also, I mean, also very well adjusted, very comfortable. And I don't think that would have happened had they kept him in the school system. But my point with all this is I would ask them these questions and the way you homeschool is that you could, there's so many, there's a million different ways. Some people are like the parents do it all, but a lot of people just use tons of resources. So you just enroll your kid in all these different classes. And there's groups now. So there's homeschooling groups. So like Tuesdays and Thursdays, you're at such and such house. So you get the social interactions too. And yeah, exactly. And it's with groups of kids. So they're at least in, they're in a small, they're in like a fucking class of eight kids with one teacher, you know? So they do get a lot more private teaching in close quarters. And there's still a social aspect to that. I've seen, excuse me, I've seen homeschooling go really great where there's so much freedom in what you can do. You know, if you're going to go travel a lot, that's fucking amazing to have that ability to travel and learn on the road and still get your homework done and all that shit. And then also, you know, I've seen kids that were taking like morning jiu-jitsu classes and things like that during the daytime. That way they would never be able to do if they were in regular school. I love it, dude. Did you, did you like school? I fucking hated school. I thought so. Now here's the deal. Now this is an interesting point because you hated school, but I would consider you a very intelligent person. You have a very high aptitude for learning, and yet you fucking hated school. And that was how shitty is that? Paul Chek dropped out. Thank you, Doug. Paul Chek dropped out in the ninth grade. Yeah, and he's one of the smartest things I've ever read. He's one of the smartest people I've ever met. I mean, what does that tell you? That's fucked up when you've got really intelligent people who love to learn, who have a high aptitude, and they're putting a situation where they are convinced that they don't like to learn. I wonder, did you go through a period where you're like, well, I just don't like to learn. I don't think this is... No, there were things that I gravitated towards, you know, and certainly in college, there were classes that I really fucking enjoyed. I loved philosophy, psychology, sociology, like figuring out what made people tick. And it's funny because half the reason I quit my senior year and didn't go back is like, I'm never going to use this fucking degree for anything. I don't need this basket weaving degree. Like, to stay eligible for football, I changed majors three times until it was a bachelor of interdisciplinary studies. So it's two minors to equal one major. And then most of the classes you take as a senior are on how to sell yourself on why your major is a legit major. There are actual BIS classes on how you're going to fucking approach interviews and shit. That's really nice that you guys do that, but I know what this is. I know this is a shitty degree. And from Arizona State, nonetheless, so it's like our shit school with a shit degree. But oddly enough, I'm one of the few people that's completely ranked to number one. We were number one party school in the nation twice while I was there, not even in the top 10. I'm not trying to say you're the reason that they were number one party school. But I contributed, I contributed the cause. I'm one of the few people that I know that actually uses everything I learned in college for what I do now. Like communication was the main focus in podcasting, learning what makes people tick, things like that, it all circled back into that. It's kind of, it's totally ironic. And I never would have known like, oh, this is what I'm going to do later on. Talk about your growth and that because one of the things that I loved about you when we first met, which sometimes this is really- Besides your handsome face. Yeah, no. Was you were very open. I remember when you first started your podcast to hear someone else criticize it or tell you what we thought, oh, maybe you should or shouldn't do this. And a lot of people are not open to that. You know what I'm saying? And I feel like you're very growth-minded and that's why you were open to that. What are some of the things that you have kind of grown and gotten better at? Have you gone back and kind of evaluated your own interview skills and the way you do stuff? Like, are you paying attention to that? Yeah, I used to do it. I used to do it more. And I honestly have learned a lot from you guys, not to butter your nuts. But I remember when you told me that expression. You were talking to Connor about this. We were sitting on this couch. I don't think the interview was ever released. But I'm sure it wasn't released. Okay. But Connor was feeling like he was getting ragdolled a little bit. But one of the points that you brought up was you have to hit the lowest common denominator. Excuse me. You have to speak in a way. Topo Chico will give me some fucking birds. So apologies to the people listening right now. You have to be able to speak in a way that hits the masses. And if you get too airy-fair, you're out in the woods, that's going to fucking turn people off. And I know you guys do a great job of trying to fucking pad that for certain listeners. There's like, hey, Paul, Paul Check, I know you're mentioning the term God. We'll probably have a lot of people turning off the podcast right now. At least save it for 10 minutes. You know what I'm getting at? And obviously, you have to do that. Just communicating. And a lot of people think, yeah, there's a way you can say it. And you talked about this with acupuncture. We're moving Chi. Well, if you just tell me how it's affecting the fucking nervous system, I'm buying into it. That's right. And if it's going to do that shit along the side and move my chi and unlock chakras and all that, that's great. But don't sell me on that. You know, know your audience, right? And so I think, you know, obviously, taking over total human optimization podcast, changing it to the Anup podcast is a refresher similar to the realness is a refresher for Connor. A little bit of re-brand, right? Re-brand, guys. Same same. Same same, but different. Same same, different. You know, I think I bring a bit more to the tables and the previous host and not to discount on what he knew and what he brought to the table. And but we do have, you know, on it is so big because of Joe Rogan. So we do have a lot of fans from that that want to call bullshit when they see it. And, you know, there there's still, you know, some bro way listeners that are just trying to, you know, just trying to better themselves and they're not sure about stuff. So it's not everything fucking hits, but at the same time, I do want to expose people to meditation. I do want to give people the tools that have helped me the most. Because it's fucking legit. It fucking works, man. It really does. And it's your job. It's your job as a, as a podcaster, influencer, communicator. What the fuck you want to call yourself? It's your responsibility with your skills because you have skills, right? This is what you do and you're good at it to be able to know what you know, but then able to communicate it effectively enough so that the fucking bro on the other end who would never even consider it goes, oh shit, you know what? I think I'll give that a shot. And that's how you change people's lives. Yep. That's how it's gotta be, brother. 100%, you know? And I mean, thinking, having people like Paul Chekhan who's, who will get out in the woods, but in a beautiful way. And Anahata is a lady that I've worked with who's definitely out there, but amazing, you know? Like we spent 45 minutes breaking down the Native American medicine wheel. Oh wow. And just going through different Native American traditions and how we can apply that to our lives. And she can actually break it down in a language that's really accessible to people. But I think those kind of, like I want to fucking talk keto. I want to talk carbohydrate load. I want to talk training, you know? We've got you guys on. We've got Mark Bell, and we've got different people in that space. But it's also important to expose people to things that are outside of their wheelhouse. Of course. That's what growth is all about. Challenge thought. Yeah. That's it. And really, it's, you know, I learned this a long time ago, and it's, I started assuming that, because I had this realization years ago, when this was, actually, I got this realization when I started getting into economics. And I started to examine how effective. Milton Friedman. Yeah, exactly. I started to, I started to see how effective societies were when people were more free. And what did that tell me? Well, that told me that most people are pretty fucking good. Most people are good people. Most people just want to be left alone, to want to be loved, want to, want to belong. They want to contribute. They want to have meaning for the most part. So, and that's true, because if it wasn't true, by the way, free societies would crumble. You'd have to have crazy strict controls, but yet we walk outside today. I'm in Texas right now. We're, you know, probably 30% of the population is probably carrying a, you know, a handgunner. At least. Yeah. And nobody's killing themselves. Everybody's cool, super polite or whatever. Most people are good people. And so I started assuming that when I started communicating to people and it made me way more effective. Instead of assuming like you're an idiot, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm about to teach you something. I started assuming like, okay, we may have different opinions, but you're a good person. You're generally a good person, just like I am. So knowing that, I'm going to communicate differently and it was way more effective. And I got to, and not only that, but I learned, I learned how to listen better. That was a big one. That's been a massive one. You know, and not just from working on it or podcasting or anything like that, but being a good listener is so important, especially in relationships. And that's another key takeaway from my wife and I is the ability to listen to one another, just to keep your mouth shut, you know, to let people finish what they're saying and to give people a safe space, a safe bubble. Give them the fucking opportunity to get what they have inside out. You know, so many times we're waiting to jump in or waiting to say the next thing and we don't allow that to happen and that's where conversations fail, you know, and you can tell, like when you're talking with people and it doesn't even have to be, you know, somebody you'll never see again or the single serving friends, like they talk about on the fucking fight club, like you're sitting down in an airplane, like it doesn't have to be that kind of conversation, but there's plenty of times where you're in conversation with people, especially at events like this. And you realize like, this motherfucker is not listening to me. He's just trying to fucking jump in whenever he can or, you know, he's like, you can tell. And I think when you talk to somebody who actually is listening to you, especially as a podcaster where we have real conversations like this often, it's very meaningful. Like you feel heard and there's a connection that's made there. That's fucking massive. Anything that you still see yourself right now that like that constant reminds you of a struggle or something that you're getting better at within the podcast, you know what I'm saying, like as far as habits that you have, like I have a really bad habit of like rambling. I'll answer a question and then I'll just keep going on and on and on about something like that. And so, or I'll talk really fast. And so I'm trying to be cognizant of that and slow down my speech and pause between things. Do you, do you have habits that you see yourself and you're trying to improve on? Yeah, there are times, you know, usually I try to evaluate right after the podcast because it's not often that I'll get to listen to the podcast. And I know that was a great tip you guys gave me was to re-listen to the podcast that you launch. And even before it comes out and critique yourself, you know, give yourself an honest look. And I did that a lot early on and that really helped me get better. Now I don't really have the time for that. If I'm listening to podcasts, I'm listening to you guys, Rogans and God knows who else to try to gather more information for the podcast, right? I want outside influences. But I think in that, there's still self-evaluation and what I find that I'm really working on is the balance of knowing when to speak and how long to speak. Because it's not the Kyle Kingsbury show, it's the On It podcast. But at the same time, there needs to be that flow. People are tuning in to hear me just as much as the fucking guest, right? Like people are turning to listen to the fucking you guys. It is a dance, right? You know, yeah, it really is. You have to pay attention to how things are moving and like where to contribute and, you know, to keep it going instead of just like abruptly changing topics. And, you know, some people haven't really understood that process yet. Yeah. And it goes both ways. You know, I feel like I do a better, I've been complimented many times on me allowing the speaker to speak, you know, like not having to fucking just chime in whenever I feel it's perfect. Yeah. Like really giving them a floor to say their wealth of knowledge and speak. There are times where you get people that will just fucking keep going and going. And if I can't jump in to help facilitate the steering and the direction I want it to go, like, you know, I'm going to get to this question. I love let me ask, you know, those kind of things. There has to be times where it's give and take and certain guests are better than others as you guys know. So I think that's all fine tuning. And it gets better every time you do it. Do you ever struggle not challenging people when you when you feel like, you know, you should inside and you want to be respectful because they're your guests. I do this sometimes. That took us a while to fucking learn. Yeah. Like I you're in my house the first time I'm interviewing you. I you're a big name like that. Yeah. Like you say some shit that I just I want to challenge it or or whatever, right. Or I disagree somehow. But then I just kind of let it go by because I'm like, well, I don't want to. I don't want to be that rough. Yeah. I usually I usually don't try to prove people wrong. Or I mean, I'll take one, for example, it hasn't even aired yet. Guy was talking about the endocannabinoid system and beautifully. And I was talking about CB1 receptors and how everywhere it goes through the body from the brain all the way down through the spine and out through the periphery. Yeah. In the nervous system. And I was like, yeah, it's incredible, man. THC fits right in there. And he was like, no, THC fits in a different receptor. And I was like, oh, you know, and then he caught himself. I was like, really? Really? Like, dude knows everything. You fucking damn sure better know where THC fits in. And and then he was like, oh, I think I misheard you. You know, it was cool, though, because that allowed him by not jumping on his ass and putting him in the defense road. He was yeah, he was able to backtrack. And he was like, oh, yeah, I think I misheard you and and kind of right the ship there. We used to have trouble doing that, not as much anymore. Now we'll start to call people out because who was it that Jordan Harbinger from the Jordan Harbinger show? He used to be on Art of Charm. Yeah, fucking who's a he's. I think he's probably the best podcaster I've ever lot like polished. Oh, he just he just he's a black belt. Yeah, exactly. And he goes, you're recording the show for your audience or not recording it necessarily for your guests. When you're having a conversation, remember that like it's for your audience. So if you want to challenge him, do it. Worst case scenario, the guy gets pissed off and leaves and then you have a good episode anyway. And I thought of that. I'm like, oh, shit. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Plus that's how I talk anyway. What I've noticed is the longer we podcast, the more the podcast has now become how I talk in real life, which is the way and I and I'm like that anyway in real life. If someone says something that I disagree with, I tend to speak up. So we just do it on a podcast now. Anyway, when we when we interviewed, I want to make you dance a little bit. All right, we dance because I know it won't be easy for you to answer. I was listening to fucking David Bowie. Let's dance on the right here. I'm ready. I'm ready. Let's dive on your. So when we we were interviewing Aubrey last time, I was asking him some questions that I thought were a little challenging and hard for him as far as being the CEO and where he where he sees himself in the future. And I got the feeling that, you know, he's really wanting to go down this like becoming an author and he's having you know, obviously the book launched has done incredible. New York Times bestseller. Yeah, he's killing it. Evergreen forever. That's on his fucking book. New York Times bestseller. I mean, so he is he's fucking killing it. Exactly. Which what and it sounded like by the questions I was asking him that there's a good chance that he may move on into this just full-time author. Go more into being an author. Yeah. And that seems to be more of his passion than being a CEO of a big fitness health company or whatever, you know. So what do you do? You know what his plans are? Can you speculate? Yeah. Yeah. His I mean, I think he mentioned this on the on the episode you guys did because I sat on that for the only thing at the last hour of it. The goal is to sell the supplement side at some point and to the right guys, right. Just that side of it. Just the side of it. He wants to continue to have the gym and roll those out along with the cafes and those will likely be separate. Cafes. Yeah, the on the cafe. So you'll be able to go in and get coffee and get the fucking Keto drinks and all that good shit. That's my favorite part. We can roll those out anywhere like Santa Monica, Venice, New York. Those are actually pretty fucking gangster. We love those. Actually, the main reason why we come to the on a gym is because I'm not going to smoke that cafe. Yeah. Besides you. Besides you have some of this cold coffee. Bone broth juice. Yeah. So I mean, he's open about that. And obviously he wants to write several books. He has plans for, I think, at least three more right now. And he I think he just came to the conclusion the next book he's going to write will be on psychedelics and drugs. Oh, OK. I told him we have to a lot of research. A lot of field field research. Balls deep with the n equals one. First hand experience. But, you know, and that'll be told similarly to own the day where, you know, on the day he had this is how you do it right and this is fucking up. And he was very self deprecating and just, you know, opened up about being a fucking human like where he had gone wrong. And I think that'll be incredibly important in a book about psychedelics and drugs to be able to say like, this is how you do it wrong. This is what this looks like. Yeah. You know, so I mean, there's a right way and a wrong way to do anything. But that in particular can be one where you can fucking die, you know. What about you? Like, what are you looking at moving ahead? Are you looking at just going to keep growing this podcast? I want to be the boss. Yeah. No, no. I mean, I know you guys joked about that. I think Aubrey wanted a guy. I mean, he told me this on the fucking flight when I was leaving PaleoFX last year, which is how I have the job. We shared the same flight back to Vegas and he was, you know, we really got to dive deep. John Wolf was on that flight. We sat next to each other and went deep. We talked about everything. Fucking fasting, psychedelics, training, diet, nutrition, all that. And he said, I have a job for you. And one of the ways that he broke that down was, you know, when he's gone riding, there's nobody else that on it that really understands all the moving parts the way he does. And obviously, I can bridge that gap for him, you know. So I think he'll have much more comfort in writing his next books, not only because of the New York Times bestseller shit, like now he'll get published no matter what. Sure. And he'll get a much bigger advance every time. And we'll spend a good amount of that advance on research for this next book. The point is, like, he's not going to be in the office all the time. And that's what's cool is that I think he can let go of the reins a little bit and see positive outcomes from that. Do you see, like, are you guys adding positions? Like to all the fucking time. Are you well? Yeah. We just got the building next door to us. All of creative is going to go in there. Oh, wow. And I don't know what's going to happen in the creative room, but I mean, there's it's caught. People are constantly getting reshuffled and moved around. And whole departments are expanding. We have eight new hires, you know, fucking every month. Wow. How does the Exos fit into all this? Exos is our sister now. They are fucking we're, we do all their supplements for them. We have a partnership. And I think it's for the next five years. It'll probably continue on after that. Mark Verstigen and and Aubrey are very close. And so it's cool. Like we ex there's, Exos has, I think, over 400 facilities. They're going to have one right across the street from us where we can, it'll be walking distance. And that'll have us. Basically going to be like a sports performance lab. They'll have a 12 person cold pool. Just all the cool shit that they wouldn't spend at on it. They'll spend there because it's all pro athletes and, you know, you know, high level military personnel that are going to run through there. So it's really cool that we get to dive into that. And just right out of the gate, it's like, all right, we, you know, we make your supplements now. So we need a sports performance line. So creatine, monohydrate, elglutamine, and electrolyte drink. Very bottom, bottom rung, you know, low hanging fruit for them. But we're developing a lot of cool shit for them as well that I think will. That's a great partnership. Yeah. And we get to sell that on the on its side too. So it's not like, it's just for them. You know, it's for the, for the world. But that's, that's helped kind of steer us in product development towards new things. And I think that's, that's fucking fantastic. How long until the facility is supposed to be built? You know, I think it'll be done in the next year. Oh, cool. Yeah. They already have the location. Are we going to be able to come check it out and hang out? Okay, man. Yeah. You guys all have access. You guys have VIPs. Yeah. A lot of VIPs. Oh yeah. More of that ball buttering going on here. Slathering on. I gotta like it. Let's keep it going. Yeah. We actually felt it was pretty neat. Bother them biscuits. This, this paleo was really fun for us because I, I really did feel that way when we came in. It was, I mean, every booth and every check-in that we went to, I felt like either you were a listener or you knew, knew of the show and stuff like that. And I just, one of the, again, I don't know if it's fucking Austin. I don't know if it's the people we're hanging out with but just such a, so welcoming. And we just, we couldn't find our names. We weren't, because I think Mike made a call last minute because we weren't even sure we can go to paleo when they had this thing where they changed the, the VIP passes, something with the software and shit. So we couldn't be found anywhere. And I never felt like they were being dicks or trying to keep us out. They were like really working to like make it work for us to let us in. Mind who? Yeah. You're on the list. They were really cool. There's a guy doing animal flow on the lawn. Why don't you hang with him for a while while we look into it? You don't care. You know Kyle Kingsbury? He's the one letting us in. Come on. We're on VIPs, right? Oh, okay. Here's your pass. No, it was, it was a, we've sensed the shift in our audience. And we've met some incredible fans at the, at this, this, the convention. It's very humbling. I feel a tremendous responsibility. Do you feel a responsibility when you do your podcast? Like, okay, I need to make sure I'm, I'm saying, doing the right things to help these people and give them the right information. Yeah. And to constantly give. And I think one of the, I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of a half joke to say I'm the office guinea pig, but the truth is I'm always trying. I'm always searching. I'm always, that's one of the ways we learn is through experience. Yeah. And so it's very easy because I'm on the front lines consistently playing with my body, you know, with cold and different things, whatever the fucking case is. And then sharing that with the world, right? I can't keep that to myself. I have to give that. And I think that's where the beauty is, is because I, I truly still am hungry to fucking learn. I'm hungry and thirsty for the knowledge. And as I soak that up, it's very easy to share because it's fucking fresh in my mind. And then, man, this book was amazing. I'm going to get this guy on now, you know, and, and that kind of shit just flows together. We just had Max Lugovir from Genius Foods. Dude, I fucking love him. He loved you guys. Oh, man. Oh, you know, the Mind From Crew is like, yeah, man. And he was like, dude, they're fucking great. He's our new bestie. Dude, he was awesome. Oh, he's great. He's polished. He's a guy. He's very polished. Dude, he's a guy who reminds me of Dr. Rhonda Patrick. Like he, you'll bring up a topic and it's just they're lobbing a softball and he's hitting it out of the park each fucking time. Oh, yeah. But he can quote the science the exact numbers. You know, he's also just a good fucking person. Great. He's a very good person. He's comfortable in his skin. We went and played a top golf with him. And we're all swinging. And you know, we all we're all, you know, terrible swings on mine is absolutely horrendous. He goes up there and he's super stiff with it. We're all allowed. Oh, no, you could tell when he grabbed the club that this guy has not touched a bat, a golf club, a stick. I mean, he's never played a ball sport. Yes. You could see that it was as foreign as it could possibly be. I mean, but so he sees us and we're laughing. And then he realizes we're laughing at ourselves and everything. And he's like, fuck yeah, man. And he's just super comfortable and we love the guy. Well, just just the fact that he did that. I mean, we're we're we're we're becoming really good friends. But I mean, we really only hung out a couple of times before just the other day when we hung out at top golf. And you know, he showed up. We're already been drinking for a while. We've been hitting the balls, making fun of each other, making memes of each other and shit, like just fucking around, having a good time. And he comes rolling in and right away, so I was like, hey, take a swing at it. And he just like, you can see there's just no just a second. Yeah. What happened? What? Oh, I was going to say, he's like, no hesitation. Oh, yeah, yeah. Exactly. He grabbed the club and then he walked over and I knew it just the way he was getting ready. Like you could just tell this fucker has never swung out a golf ball for. And he did and it was awful. I felt like kinship with him. Oh, and we instantly just started dying, laughing. And you know, he turned around and looked at us afterwards. And I got this feeling for just a split second that he was kind of trying to figure out like, are these motherfuckers like making fun of me right now? Like poking me? Or we just all having fun together. And so I kind of called him over so you could see the insta story that Taylor was already filming making fun of all of us. And then he realized that we all sucked and we're all just having fun and laughing at each other. And he's like, fuck, you guys are fucking so cool that you can just he's a nice guy. Make fun of yourself. Like that. I'm doing this. Yeah, dude, there's not a lot of people like that. And I connect a lot with people that that have this ability to be so comfortable in their own skin, dude. And he's definitely and he's like you said, brilliant. He's fucking dialed it. Yeah. He can have a normal conversation with you. You won't even know he's that smart. But then you start asking him some really deep shit. He'll take you anywhere you want to go, man. And so I really like that one. My favorite part of this job for sure. Yeah, people like him and meeting people like you. Yeah, yeah, man. Fucking awesome. Always, always, always love him. If someone were to drop into the podcast and listen to one podcast episode in the last 60 to 90 days, which one would you tell him to listen to? Fuck. That's kind of hard. Don't get on the spot, brother. Don't say the boss. That one's not fair. Yeah. Well, that's the most good one. I think I think from a practical, I will say the boss first just because it's the only and that happened from watching the YouTube video. You sent me a Jordan Peterson right before 12 rules. The YouTube video was the coolest thing I've ever seen for book promotion. He gave a little a little taster from each chapter in the book. Right. And I was like, that's such a fucking brilliant way. Of course. To market it. And the people, people always say, Rogan talks about this with like Hollywood producers and shit like, no, don't tweet about it. Don't give them too much because then they won't watch. Like, no, give them fucking everything. That's what we live in a different area now. Yeah. It's like, why do you show a fucking trailer for a movie? You want to fucking catch people, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so that's what I took that model for when I interviewed him. Oh, very cool. We went through every six chapters in the book and I had read it three times. So I knew the material inside and out. And you know, he was obviously not able to do that on any of the show that he went to do to promote the book because they hadn't read it. Yeah. They didn't read it like I did. Uh-huh. You know, so. That's smart. That was it was it. For absolute practical shit that people can take and extrapolate and use to change their life positively. There's no doubt that's the one I think for. That's OK. You can use that one because that does sound like. Yeah. No, that sounds like you did your homework on that one. Sounds like you crushed it too. You know what I'm saying? Not just Aubrey, something you crushed it. It was excellent. And that was that was back and forth. And obviously, you know, he's a close friend, like he's very close friends. I mean, I really feel like there's an instant flow there. It's not hard for us to have a fucking conversation. That's right. We do it all the time. Because I really I do feel I feel like we make. I mean, sure we have all these guests that we all have on our shows and so like that. But I really think it's us who make or break the interviews, man, because I could have the most plain Jane person that nobody knows. And it'd be an compelling fucking interview because the flow is there. Or a four off. Yeah, right. Or I could have somebody who everybody's so excited to listen to, but we're just choppy and just didn't flow and just we weren't having a great conversation. We've had several like that where you would have thought they would be awesome, but they weren't. But I think it's a lot on us to do our homework. And that's something I continue, I think, to try and involve my interview skills is to really know my guests inside and out. So I know all the great questions to ask them that maybe. That's been, I think one of the harder parts is is I don't now I don't necessarily have the time to really dive into people. Like I got halfway through Genius Foods and I'll finish the book because it's that good before Max. Obviously, having read over half of his book gave me fucking more than enough material to work with him on. And I knew that material prior, but yeah, it's not like I can read everyone's book. We I interviewed this guy, Casper. That's it's not out yet. Vendor Stuton or something like that. He's William Hoffs, number one trainer. OK. And he's from the Netherlands and just fucking biohacker, brilliant guy. And he gave me a book called Mind Lift. And it's an incredible book that I want to dive into. We talked about his book on the podcast, but I didn't read a fucking single page of it. So I have 20 books on my desk. Right. You know, so I can't I don't get to put in the work that I want to necessarily for each one. But what's cool is like finding that way to navigate the space and knowing the material enough of whatever the case is where we can really have a great conversation. And it's not always that way. Right. You know, but it is nice to have this. So that's the episode you think people should tune into. Awesome. Oh, cool. Casper. No, I'm not that one. I'm talking about the whole Aubrey. Yeah, man, Aubrey for sure on the day with Aubrey Marcus. Excellent. That's the one. Well, fucking always a pleasure having you on the show, man. Yeah, always a pleasure. Absolutely. Thanks for your hospitality every time we come out here. And of course, you know, we'll always return to favor when you're back up in San Jose. Yeah, okay. So go to your podcast. Excuse me, your app store and get the mind pump media app so you can search for topics among our 750 plus episodes. Any topic you want to look up just type it in the search function. It'll pull up all the episodes with all the times we've talked about that topic. It's a free app. Mind pump media. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance, and Maps Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. 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