 It's been a long long day. I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton weight. I'm going to see my friend. Hello, I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. And I am Father Matthew Cowth. And we are speaking from The Rooftop. A podcast brought to you by Tan Books, in which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air. Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. Hello there. Hello, Father Patrick Winslow. How are you? And I'm fine, Father Matthew Cowth. Just in case people don't know who we are. Trust me, the 10 people listening know who we are. Unfortunately. We actually, I have to say, I've had some positive feedback. Rarely people come up and give you negative feedback on this sort of thing, right? They just tune you out. But the fact that we're not inviting negative feedback. I've been surprised how genuine people seem to be about enjoying their time listening. That's really kind of exciting to hear. And as I always say the same thing back to them, I hope that you have friends that you can talk to about deeper spiritual matters. That if anything, if we do anything, I pray that inspires you to allow some friendships, indeed I would hope all your meaningful friendships, to go deeper and to be substantive. Because in the end they survive. I don't mean, I was very close to people in college and long ago. But sometimes I have a hard time remembering their names. You know, I would have never thought that back then, ever, because I couldn't conceive of having a life without them in some way, in some fashion in my life. But now fast forward, you know, how many decades we all learn that life moves on, our circumstances change and distance occurs. And I can tell you that the relationships that have endured the decades are the ones that had some foundation of something substantive like the faith. It was not dependent on circumstance. Well, it's funny you bring that up. I was just back in Illinois for a funeral, and I've not been back to my hometown in probably 20-some years. That must have been nostalgic. It was very weird and wonderful at the same time. The people were so kind. But it was a rather large funeral of a classmate of mine, and it filled the largest church in the city because he was extremely active in the faith. And so the people that came to this were my classmates, you know. Sure. A lot of people came. I hadn't seen them this long. A bit of a reunion. So it was. And what was interesting is that those who came came because they were practicing the faith for the most part. Right. They still bound them together. They bound them together. And those who came to talk to me afterwards that were my classmates. As you say, I didn't really have any recollection of what we did or what we didn't do. Very little. I remember as my football team a little bit more. But it was, you know, those are people I spent four years with and were close, was close to. At the time. But the discussions we had didn't surround what we did in high school. Right. The discussions surrounding what they've done in some ways up until that point, up to what we met each other again in the faith. Because we all went our separate ways. And these people kept, these are the ones that kept the faith. It was so interesting. You're still bound. To discuss the fact that we're bound by this mystical body of Christ. It was a delightful experience. A really powerful one. It endures time. I mean, obviously. Yeah. And the other circumstances change. And the relationships that are predicated on circumstances, they fall away. They just have to. But to have the firm ground of faith, it really is extraordinary. Yeah, indeed. And to be able to maintain it. Now you have so many different tools of communication that you can survive the change of circumstances. But of course, you don't want to cruise so many friends over the arc of time that you have, you can barely keep up, you know, with maintaining. Always limited. It's always limited. So there are those few that have deeper and greater significance and meaning. And they're worth retaining and they're worth making sure that they have a common foundation of something substantive, like that of the faith and purpose and meaning of life. You know, as you were speaking, since I wasn't repaying attention, I was just thinking. Which is why I set my bar really low. When it comes to friends to talk about. Circumstances change and people move on. I was just thinking about, you know, we're in the season here that I'm thinking a little bit about the magi. And the fact that they spent a very significant portion of their life leaving their lives and going after this king. I love the image of the magi. I do too. It's my favorite. I mean, and then they leave. But it's like, What did they do? What did they do when they got back? There must have had some inspirations. And I suppose it's somewhat similar to the men that one of their followers said no. Or the shepherds, for example. But I just got to thinking, as you were saying, about the circumstances changing. For the rest of their lives, this shaped it. Whatever they did, this was the seminal point. And when they died and when heaven was opened up to them, because you can imagine that if you traveled across the world to give the baby Jesus, you know, gold frankincense and myrrh, you're going to get a nice reward. Yeah, you know, I'm one of those ones to see it. Yeah. Yeah, that's those magi. You hit the lottery there. You hit the lottery. So so I'm wisely spent of the classic nativity scene keeping prescending from Jesus, Mary and Joseph. Yeah. Who's your favorite figure at the crash? Well, when I think about you, I think about the ox in the ass. I know. I know. I can. That's probably us right there. Pick one. Oh, well, that's a good question. I'm really fond of the magi, those are three. And outside of that, I don't know that I have a real favorite. I mean, I love thinking about things from the perspective of Saint Joseph. So I probably would choose You're not allowed to. To see the scene through his eyes. I enjoy that the most. Yeah, but that's not the exercise I gave you. I know. I'm getting there. We don't know anyone else. You can't. All we got is some shepherds and some angels. Like what else we got? It's a foul. I'm throwing a flag on the play. You can't change the question. Okay. So the question is, We can get down this exit. We can do this. The question is outside of our blessed mother of the holy family and Jesus. You said the magi. I said the magi. You said the magi. I'm good with that. Okay. All right. You? For me? Yeah. The drummer boy. I knew you were going to say that. I knew you were going to say that. Oh, please do not say it. Wow. I mean. I record it now. I. So I want you to listen to this podcast. I love. Play it on the radio and then play your singing of that. Did St. Francis include the drummer boy? Or is that something that his disciples had to correct? I don't know if the drummer boy was there. Little drummer woes. Well, first of all, I'm only half joking to all those who are listening. The part of me that's joking is, of course, obviously, this is not part of the crush scene. However, the part of me that's accurately representing something of myself is I love that Christmas. It's not a him. What is it? What is it? Christmas Carol song? Christmas Carol. So I love it because it's just so beautiful. The image of a little boy. The sentiment is wonderful. Oh, that's what he has. And that's all he wants, that our Lord wants us. It's not the stuff. He wants us. And it's just so beautifully represented in that song. So I really, really love the imagery. I love the sentiment. I love it all. And it's got a great sound. Now, that said, I think I'd have to go with the magi as well as an honest answer. You know, you gave a homily once to Saint Thomas and you said something about, it was on the Feast of the Epiphany. And I remember saying to myself, you need to remember, this is one of those moments where Father Winslow got touched by grace and saw something and you need to remember that because that is a gift of the Holy Spirit right there. And I forgot it. So did I. I don't remember anyway. No. So if you speak about the magi, what do you want to say? Because that was a really insightful homily. I just remember sitting there because it was so often too that we get to hear homilies. As we're always giving them. That's right. It's rare. You may be envious of us. Do you who are listening? Well, that's true. You want to listen to them? But we just give them. And so at Saint Thomas on rare occasions, when we look together, we could actually be in each other's masses. And therefore. Or if he came over to distribute communion, you got a little early before the homing ended, you could listen in. Or if you got there an hour after mass started, you could still listen to have some efficient homily because he was still going. Oh, yes. It wasn't hard. You always catch 45 minutes of that homily. Well, the nice thing about that was is you could eat popcorn until the offertory is still made fast. Oh, that's true exactly. You could have breakfast during the reading of the gospel and you'd be fine. No. So I don't know what I would have said, but it's certainly worthy of reflecting. And I said worthy. It's a bad way to put it. It's a rich area of reflection to consider the Magi and their pilgrimage to Bethlehem. You really enter into it and consider it in its implications. This kind of goes back to some of our conversation about how to meditate on the rosary or the mysteries of the rosary. How do you scratch the surface of these things so that you can go deeper into them? And clearly having some opportunity to study, some opportunity to read up on some context, some history, some interpretation, some theology. All of those things are really very valuable because they become kind of grist for the when you approach something like a reflection on the Magi or, for that matter, a mystery of the rosary. They all can be employed and brought in and be brought to bear to shed some light on and go deeper. And that's where you can talk about things like, I remember Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI, before he was Pope, I think offered some reflections. And the Magi representing the sciences or something, where I think you talked about how there would be men of the natural studies in the natural world. Read the book of nature. The book of nature and how nature's finding fulfillment through the scene of the epiphany finding it's fulfillment of the full light of God. It was really just a very beautiful reflection. And I would imagine that most people thinking about the Magi making their track to Bethlehem are not thinking about them representing the natural sciences. And then the light of divine revelation is about to shine upon the natural sciences and the complementarity between reason and faith. But you can. That's how you go deeper and you reflect upon these mysteries. You go down those rabbit holes. You bring what you have to shine ahead of you to make connections to glean insights. I remember the terribly insightful, I suppose, but it did make me think years ago as a boy when every year we watched Jesus of Nazareth and Zephyr Ali's film. We used to be played on TV every year around Easter time. And I remember because of that we fell in love with that movie. And then my parents would, once VCRs came into the Vogue and we had that. You didn't have to look in the TV guide to see when it was going to play. Right. So we had the cassette tape, whatever you call it, VHS tape. And so we watched that scene up until after the Magi before Christmas. And I just remember that James J. Jones was in it. Oh, yes. He was one of the kings. Was he? Oh, yeah. He was. And then two other individuals. But if you recall, it was an interesting insight, whether it's true or not, but it doesn't really matter. Sure. But that they were three different kings from three different regions that ended up at the same epicenter because in following the star, they all got to the same place and then had to travel together after that. But they didn't start out together. Which the text, of course, doesn't give us any information about that. But they came together from, you know, with their Persians or whatever. But I love that, that it drew them together as kind of the sign of the nations outside of Revelation, but in the natural book. And then finally, to that position of adoration. And I remember you bring up Ratzinger, the way in which, because of course the epiphany is sometime after the birth of our Lord. And the text just says that they find the child with his mother, which is the classic scene that we all see depicted with the Magi bowing down and our Lady is holding the Christ child. But further than that, I remember Ratzinger noting that they had to bend down to get in there, wherever they were. It's noted that they had to get inside, bend down to get inside. And of course Ratzinger sees that as a seminal description of the kind of humility that's required both of our intellects, but even of our bodies, to be able to worship properly. Interesting. To see Christ, we have to bend down. Right. How beautiful. That is beautiful, like a genuflection or a prostration, etc. That really is, I think, maybe one of the things that we can conclude about some of these thoughts that we're riffing on is that your celebration of Christmas will be made better by your reflection of the mysteries. Yeah, don't outsource it, don't leave it as just someone else to do it for you. And especially, you know, don't count on the priest to give you the one harm that's going to knock you out of the park kind of a thing, because you may or may not get it. And it's a hard moment for priests to preach because you often have people that haven't been in church all year. So, you know, who's your target audience here? It's challenging to figure out how to speak to such a diverse crowd. But that said, yeah, you really do. You want to take an opportunity to reflect. You know, stop and look at a major scene. Think about what was unfolding. Reflect upon, I mean, just reflecting upon even the disposition of the animals, saying how do how do these creatures respond to their creator made flesh? Even that is a wealthy wealth, rather, of a potential reflection. And what possible discussion happened between our Lady and St. Joseph after they hear the chorus of angels singing in glory to God in the highest. Shepherds come, they leave, everything's quiet again. What just happened? Yes. And did our Lord have a, you know, did he cry as a baby? Did he have a full head of hair? I mean, he went one way or the other. He was a baldy or he had a full head of hair. You know, it was either dark or it was light or I don't know. But it's, but then you start to think about these realities. It kind of drives home that he was in flesh because you can't, you just can't equivocate on these things. It lands somewhere. It lands out of color. It lands out of volume. It lands out of size. Particularly. There is a weight. There's a height. This is the saddle of particularity. Yes. You know, it lands. And just thinking about those things and saying, my goodness, he became man. I mean, it didn't, he just didn't become a concept of man. He actually became one. And whatever, you know, whatever persons that were the shepherds that evening or persons that were in the inn that wasn't closed to them, etc. Every one of them. I mean, how many of them knew that the Son of God was there? Well, none, right? None except the ones to whom the angel ventured. And I thought to myself this morning when I was praying, I asked myself that question about why the shepherds get to go. They weren't waiting for the Messiah. They weren't looking for the Messiah. But it, talk about our Lord's poverty, you know, not just in being born in the manger and the stable, and not having a place to lay his head, no inn, etc. etc. But no one was looking for him. But at least the shepherds were watching for something. They were just watching for sheep. And that was good enough. As if to say, they're like, okay, at least you're up and you're watching for something. I'll let you in on the secret. Well, yeah, or, you know, as you were saying that, I think to myself, maybe it was the angel saying, I'm sorry, the human family may be so broken and asleep to their own condition that they can't see that God was just made flesh. I'm going to wake up a few. I'm going to wake up a few. You know, they're already awake. So these are already awake. Exactly. I'm going to get the guys that are awake. I'm going to get them. Exactly. I'm going to bring it in. Yep. Because they're already awake. If the stones are going to cry out. Exactly. How can angels not cry out? It kind of like the angels looking at us with pity to say, oh, for a Pete's sake, I got to shake a few of these up. They're missing it. You got to let somebody know. And you know what? They probably wouldn't got through the drummer boy, too. Oh, that's where the drummer boy came in. That's right. Because he started playing and people woke up. Exactly. Yeah. He was practicing at night because his mother didn't like the drum. And so during the day, he had to do chores. And so he couldn't do it. So he snuck out at night. See, this is in the apocryphal gospel. He snuck out at night. This is like some. He couldn't play his drum because he couldn't play it during the day. And he walks to a nearby field. Secret recently discovered manuscript describing. And he saw a light emanating from. The nativity according to the drummer boy. And he snuck out at night. That'd be a fun book to write. I would love that. The nativity. The nativity. From the eyes of the drummer boy. Of the drummer boy. Oh, I'd read it. I'd write it. You'd write it, too. Oh, good. You go ahead and write it. You do the hard work. I want the honor. That would be beautiful. I would love it. But suffice it to say, do the work. Do the work of thinking, of asking God the questions, looking at these things, make them particular because he didn't become an icon when he came in. It's true. So much of our life is interior. You know, that's really where we view the world around us, engage the world around us from this interior place. Don't just expect, I would say, I would counsel anybody, not to just look outside oneself to be fed, but look inside oneself to peer, to gaze, to ask the questions, to explore what you already know to deeper levels. It's a bit like a lot of ingredients are there, but put them together. See how they come together and nourish you in different ways. It's a bit like me and my cupboard with flour and sugar and vanilla. I mean, that's really boring, but I can make one heck of a cookie. You know, I mean, that's what you're doing. I don't need any ingredients. You realize that sometimes you're just sitting there like, what do I want? What do I want? And then you realize, I have ingredients. Oh, I can make something. You can make something. These cookies can come out of that closet, right? Not without some effort on my part, but I can make that happen. It's all right there. It's the same sort of thing. You have so much already in your noggin, in your interior life. It's just a matter of putting them together and seeing what you can come up with. Well, since you have moved us on to food. Oh, yes. Before we go, I am intrigued, if you've considered yet, what your Christmas meal is going to be. That sounds to me like you have. Well, because I've not settled yet. That's why I'm asking the question. So I've done so many different things over the years. So what is the most common? I'll tell you what our most common. Beef is the most common for Christmas. Yeah, okay, yeah. I mean, someone told me once, what about a ham? And I looked at them and thought, that's like a snack. Ham is the main course. You could get a spiral ham on a baked ham. And just have it on the side. You can pick it while you're actually cooking real food. But a ham is not a meal. And so I said, well, you can make a ham steak. What is that? No, it's a ham. I don't know. So throwing out hams. Lambs are for Easter. I don't do them at Christmas. You know, we've done the foul. We're already finished with Thanksgiving. And I did both turkey and duck. So I'm done with the bird family. So what's left? You know, you could do some serious pig, but I'm thinking, how would you beef? So I think beef is wonderful. In my home, when I say home, my parents and the extended family come together, all of my parents' house, we do shellfish. So it's on Christmas. It's Christmas. The big Christmas dinner is Christmas Eve. Right. So you've got the tie in it, yeah. So it's back to the days that we did the seven fishes. But no, no, no. Not the fishes, because I'm not a big fish fan. No, but I mean, it's in the genre. It's in the genre. It's coming out of the ocean. It comes out of the ocean. So we have, we do stuffed lobster tail, king crab legs, and stuffed shrimp. And then it's not uncommon that we also have some roast, as well, to have some beef represented. And it's delicious. I have to say, it's look forward to every year. It's great. So you do Christmas Day meal? Well, usually there's a lot of leftovers from Christmas Eve. So really? Yeah, the big, see, this has to do with the fact that you have the families that have to go back home that night and wake up Christmas morning. And then Christmas Day, it's about going around and visiting the houses, like going around this, you know, my brother's house, my sister's house. Yeah, so you don't have big meals on Christmas Day? Not the day. It's about going around the Christmas Eve meal. Well, we never do Christmas Eve meal because you can't eat a lot before you go to midnight mass. Well, see, we didn't go to midnight mass. Did you go to mass? Yes. So typically, so typically you would go to the vigil. The children's mass. Like before. That's why that children's mass is so packed. It is. And you come home and we would have it. And so what we would do is we would have our gift exchange among the family. Kids from extended family, like uncles and aunts and things like that. But you would have the kids waking up to gifts in the morning out of the tree. That would take place after they went home and they woke up in the morning. So that was kind of, it was a way of having your cake and eating it too, so to speak. We were able to have a family Christmas and that was Christmas Eve. And we were able to have a grand family Christmas, like everybody together. And then you're able to have your, each household had their own Christmas morning. Gotcha. And then it could be the case that there was a Christmas meal, like a nice meal in one, one of the homes or another. But since I wasn't one with the family, I'd be, you know, I'd go with my parents and kind of go around or, in this case, you know, now that I'm down here, we, anyway, I won't get into the details of the practical, it doesn't matter. The gist is the same. Seafood. Seafood. It's delicious. It's yummy. And actually surf and turf is another way. So you can do, you don't have to do all of that seafood, but you could do the stuff shrimp. You could do a lobster tail. If you do a lobster tail, please make sure it's taken from cold water. Amen to that. Yeah, I mean. I think all our listeners are certainly up on that policy that they must be. If they're not, they need to. You know, do not get a warm lobster tail or Australian, no, no, no. It tastes like a big shrimp. If you want to taste the lobster, it has to come from a cold water. All right. Well, that's no help because I'm definitely doing beef. Well, why can't you do surf and turf? Well, I can, but here's the deal. You don't know how. I don't do surf. I don't, I never do surf. So I only surf with you guys. And I'm not that big on surf. There you go. Because it's a lot of mess for 20 people. Yeah. We do crab legs. They steam up pretty easy. All right. Well, if anyone has any suggestions, feel free to write to me. I've been all kind of a beef Wellington. I did beef Wellington when you're like the serious beef Wellington. Yeah. I'm thinking about doing that again. It's a lot of process. Because I didn't nail it. Well, what about salt crust? Well, I love salt crust. Do I mean, do you do salt, you do salt crust with beef, right? I do, yeah. I've never had one. Yeah. Fish you do, of course. But yeah, I've seen it with, you know, with fish and things, but you could try a salt crust. All right. This is going to be pondered about. What about, you know, pondered over. Or paella, a Christmas paella. I did a paella about three weeks ago. It was awesome. Was it good? Yeah. Is it festive? It was just because it was glorious. And it was a good seafood option for Friday. And some family were in town, so. Oh, that is nice. So blessings to you all. We need to close this before I begin to think only about food when I'm going off to prayer. I think that's too late. We're going to go pray. That ship is sailing. Blessings on you all. Have a wonderful Christmas. Yes, have a blessed Christmas. Hopefully, we'll be able to send one of these out during that short Christmas season. Amen. God bless you all. Thanks for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. And remember, for more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at 10books.com. And we'll see you again next time. From the Rooftop.