 Hello and welcome to the Drum History podcast. I'm yours Bart van der Zee and today I'm honored to be joined by Bill Sherman who is the music director of Sesame Street. Bill welcome to the podcast. Thank you I'm honored. Yes, so this is a really really neat one because it's uh, it's I mean it's Sesame Street It's so cool. It's it's iconic. It is Truly I can say from being a dad of a young son and another one very soon It is really I think the best kids programming that speaks so like clearly and respectfully to kids So you guys do an amazing amazing job at that Yes, so and and you have two kids yourself So I think you kind of get that but but this isn't just for people with children I think everyone out there either grew up with Sesame Street or things along those lines So just to throw out a few other quick facts though So you're a composer producer a ranger you worked on donkey hody, which is a great show Nature Cat another great kid show but but also Hamilton and in the Heights With Lin man Lin Manuel Miranda, which you guys were roommates, right? We were we were friends in college and then became roommates for way too long thereafter And yes, our good friends to this day that worked out pretty well He's done great things so of you and then you also have a podcast quest love supreme with mr. Questlove who everyone knows and loves So a lot of cool friends. I have some cool friends. I do. Yeah, I have some cool phone numbers in my phone book It's all very nice. I yeah I never thought that that would be who I was and now it just sort of is it sounds super Lane coming out of my mouth, but like that's just sort of how it is Yeah, and so if the good part is is if I want to hang out with my friends I just have to find a job or go work with them because like seeing them in a social situation is a very Yeah, almost impossible feat to accomplish. Yeah because everyone's always working, but uh, yeah, that's right so again the topic today I Found out about you actually and I'll give him a shout out through Greg Wells the great engineer or producer Musician and drummer. I believe plays a and f drums Greg posted something with with about you or with you and and I had been looking trying to find information on You know someone to talk to from Sesame Street and the Muppets, which they're different and we'll talk about that later. They're different and the same So we'll cover that but so thanks to Greg who I briefly talked to on Instagram and been a fan of his for a long time He's one of my favorite human beings in the whole world And if you're into any sort of music mixing anything audio related Check out Greg Wells's Instagram or anything that he does and he is a wealth of knowledge and also one of the nicest people I've ever met in my life and I'd like to say a colleague and a friend and we work together all the time and he He by the way, he also loves kids music. In fact has written some songs for Sesame Street and other things. I've worked on and He has like five children so that would help and he's he's a wonderful wonderful human being and one of my favorite people Yes, his I used to watch his mix with the Masters series all the time for you know For it was for work. So I was like, you know, I'm gonna learn a little bit from Greg But yeah, so I think everyone knows that Sesame Street is very very music heavy Very rhythmic. There's a lot of famous musicians and drummers and celebrities who who are on it I was watching it earlier today Doing a little research for this and just to kind of a few that came up right off the bat Which maybe we'll touch on these I think some of them are before your time, which was started in 2010 But Anderson pock was on some somewhat recently quest love has been on there your buddy Ray Barreto Dame Evelyn Glennie has a great one, which is really really cool and talks about some interesting topics But beyond the famous drummers, which we can again talk about more later. There's everything that happens in Sesame Street I feel like you guys put music in and rhythm and teaching the importance of of that kind of stuff. So Before we get into that just kind of jumping around, why don't we how did you get that job? You know, that's like a dream job. It really is and to this day, you know, my Sesame Street job I call it when I tell people what I do for a living it's called the leprechaun effect Like I say, I'm the music director of Sesame Street and they look at me like I'm a leprechaun Because there's no way that that can be a real job and like holy cow, right? And so so the way I okay, so the way I got that job is like a series of Fortunate I will say events. I went to college at Wesleyan University and that limit well Miranda We were friends. We worked on his shows and graduated from college and started working on in the Heights the off-broadway version and Then at the same time he and I and a couple of our friends played in this thing called freestyle of Supreme Freestyle of Supreme for those who don't know is like an improvisational hip-hop group where we get suggestions from the audience and like Makeup hip-hop songs and blah blah blah and so at that time there was a woman her name is Karen Fowler She was developing a new electric company and for those who don't know the electric company was around in the 70s It starred Morgan Freeman and Gene Wilder and Rita Moreno and all these great people and so we were remaking it and She wanted to base the electric company sort of around freestyle of supreme the sort of like riffy Hip-hoppy anything could happen at any time kind of vibe so we made that show and The electric company was in the same building as Is a product of sesame workshop and so so a Sesame Street so a electric company was sort of dwindling We had made like 160 episodes in a year and a half like something create me a lot of episodes and then and then it was it was sort of fizzling out as a word as was and and Sesame Street was just looking to turn over some of their people the guy actually why replaced was very famous also the percussionist Danny Epstein had been the music supervisor since 1969 and I believe retired at age 90 or something like that and so and so anyway I went there I went for like a series of interviews over a year and a half. I remember coming home to my then wife and being like Hey There's a possibility that I could be the music director of Sesame Street and she's like that's not a real thing I was like, I know it sounds crazy. I can't even believe it blah blah So, you know, I went in I had an interview with the guy who played Elmo I had an interview with the president had an interview with the head of production and all these people and I had no idea really what I was doing. I was still like 20 I Got the job in what 2010 when I was 30. So yeah, this was like I was 26 27. I was still pretty young I had one TV show to my name In the Heights was sort of becoming a thing and like maybe would it maybe would turn into something great But nobody really knew, you know, so anyway, so often there and I guess I wooed the right people and did the right thing So I got the job at Sesame Street. I just I still to this day like find that really hard to believe I've been there for 13 years It's it some days feels like no time at all has passed and then something feels like, you know We've gotten this incredible machine running and it's it's we're doing new things all the time And we're we're dealing with all kinds of content. That's like important in the world And I also feel like that job once I got it like and to this day is like so important Just for like from a learning aspect and from a teaching aspect and just from like a You know, I do other jobs that are not as important as Sesame Street. Let's just put it that way, you know and so so So this just you know And so this to this day like I always feel like that's the most no matter what I do that's the most important job I have and I put it like way above everything else and I always try to challenge myself to keep the level of music and musicianship and creativity at its highest because If not somebody else should be doing that job, you know, like it shouldn't be it shouldn't be like I'm just holding on to that job. We should really be pushing the envelope whenever we can so anyway, so yeah That's how I got that was really answered Yeah, and and uh, yeah, and to this day it's still just like a weird But and I have you know, we I talk to people like this and like and it's just like, oh, yeah That's right. It's it still is insane that that's my you know, that's like what's on my business card Yeah, that's people and I go page and you know, it's interesting about the job Sesame Street is You talk about some of the people I know it's it's opened up so many doors and it's it's it's this really cool thing that So many of us have in common like you said in the introduction like whether you're whether you have kids or don't have kids You grew up on Sesame Street or you didn't like I I grew up as like a GI Joe Like that kind of kid and so when I got the job Sesame Street I did like a deep dive into Sesame Street just to really get you know, just to figure out what the hell's going on But but a lot of the thing about is that people have that in common So like for example when I met Questlove we were working on the Hamilton record And it was like the first few days recording and then blah blah blah and I was like Oh, yeah, I'm the music director of Sesame Street and immediately time stood still because he's like a huge Sesame Street fan And immediately wanted to like take me out and like hang out and like talk all about Sesame Street and all the things that he asked me I had no idea what he was talking about for the most part and I was like, huh Yeah, I was like you're from the roots like you've been my favorite band since I was 15 years old And then we became really good friends and like to this day like we you know, we do the podcast and stuff and we hang out and It's just a wild Relationship to have he played you appreciate this my senior year at college the band that played like the big spring concert was the roots And so like I was 19 or 20 or something and so and now years later He's like no way and he remembers everything so he like remembered that gig which is which is surreal to me But yeah, so it's just like it's also weird how sort of those things in these days are becoming full circle events Absolutely, and you know, it's weird on that totally unrelated is my wife in college ran some program that does bring those concerts I hear at the University of Cincinnati and she the roots played and she carried quest loves throne But like it's such a simple little thing but that sticks with her to say Oh, of course, she told me, you know being a drummer, but but pretty neat connection there But so I think you're right where it crosses Everyone likes it. It's beloved. I mean at this point and it's it's on HBO, which is kind of a big change Obviously from from originally being on PBS, which I'm glad it's Landed there and all that good stuff. But um, all right, so drum stuff You yourself I'll clarify are not a traditional drummer But you did study African rhythms in college as you said you clearly have an understanding of it I guess the first thing to kind of jump in would be let's start with some fun stuff and talk about Celebrity drummers including your buddy quest love coming on the show and obviously there's guitarists and all kinds of other musicians and singers that come through but What is that process like to get a drummer to come on? Let's say quest love where he does he got a really cool Kind of segment where he was teaching gosh, I forget which muppet it was over It was Grover where he was teaching Grover and they were playing together and Grover had his little kind of blue mini drum set How does this all work? Maybe just give us the process of like writing the segment and then forming. What's it like? I think it depends on the it depends on the guests. I'll give you two examples. So with quest love I a couple years before that he He had always wanted to do be on the show or do something so first He wrote a song that we did with Pharrell called Be Us For Book and then a year or two after that He was our guest on the Thanksgiving Day parade float, which was hilarious because it was just like Quests surrounded by a bunch of muppets and it was very funny and then two years after that He wanted to like physically be on the show. So so so there are writers wrote this bit about I don't even know what it was about but it was about it was about drumming and about like copying or something like that Like like Grover did something and yeah, and then and then I'm here to something and so, you know in true form Like he was all excited. He really wanted to do a bit with Grover. He keep showed up his tech Keith McPhee who's the roots tech showed up with one of his really snazzy looking Ludwig sets and set it up and And then he just sort of and so here's here's a little piece of inside knowledge. So the guy who plays animal Also plays Grover also plays miss Piggy also plays Oscar also plays a bunch of other things anyway So for him drumming like drumming with Grover was a lot like drumming with animal and I remember that day it was just sort of like Like Grover played a bit then Amir copied him They went back and forth and it was just hilarious and and amazing and and every time they yelled cut Amir would be like You like this is insane. It's like I know I know I just I know just like take it in breathe like get through it And so he did and it was just fun and we you know, he had a super good time and yeah, and uh, I mean And my second example is like someone who actually played like a song. So Anderson Park was on recently I wrote a song for him called holiday. Yeah, which I was really proud of and Anderson's like a super cool dude. I sent him the tune. He texted me back. He's like, hey I love this song. Can I flip it and like put change the key and like do some stuff? I was like, absolutely So like over this band of a few days he like went in the studio with his band I think the guys from the free nationals and then I'm recorded a bunch of stuff and said it to me And it was just like exactly what it should sound like just like the dope Anderson pop version of my song, right? And like I always find it funny over the past 10 years or 12 whatever is Anytime a rapper comes on and I have to rap like a demo for a rapper It's like the most embarrassing thing in my career. So like common for example We were in the studio and common was listening to me rap and he kept on saying Can I have more bill in my headphones? Can I have more bill in my headphones? And I was like, why aren't we recording this because this is hilarious and what else is common? You know, I'm gonna say that to me. So um, yeah So Anderson came on and Anderson was just so excited to be there also And like was like a little kid in the candy store and like played drums on the set And was just like crushing it and like was nailing all of the fills that he had done And was just like super on it and then I was at the Grammys a couple weeks ago And I saw him in silk sonic and I was just like, damn I can't believe you're on the set of Sesame Street and now I'm watching you do this Which is there that band is super slick and really good And that was like a hell of a show that song is awesome And and I it makes me ask the kind of weird drummer question of so Anderson pox Bass drum the logo was covered. Is there a reason for that? Just just kind of inside baseball Absolutely. So we can't put any brand names on Sesame Street. So there's no, you know, all of the guitar Heads yeah are taped over and then if you'll notice like in the In Hooper store, all of the brand names are like jokes. So it's like it's like people who are in the casts Wheaties and blah blah blah. There's no actual like Tide or you know, sure. Yeah, and I noticed that quest love though His his Ludwig seemed to have slipped through on like on the base. I think that because he is sponsored by Ludwig Yeah, because he like probably has stock in Ludwig at this point. Yeah that they let it slide Yeah, because he's I mean, I've used that drum set that that Ludwig breakbeat his his signature kit Which man, it's a small little kit and he has that super high tom. It's it's a really cool setup But I also have one of those in the basement and I love it. Yeah Did you get one of them for your kids? He also makes like that There's another breakbeat thing that's like the smaller version of that. Yeah, I've seen those I have a little Ludwig accent set for my son, but I I did this kids group It was called songs for seeds, which is actually a big franchise in new york And someone bought one and did it here and I was the drummer in it for a couple years And that was just the drum set that was provided was the quest love kit, which it was great Tell him I enjoyed it Absolutely some other good some other good quest love gear knowledge inside baseball is He has his own sticks right which are made by pro mark or whatever they're made by and um I think his signature brand he was telling me that They're long So that because root shows are so long and he plays so much during them that they're longer so he can rest his arm On his thigh while he plays so he can like play like this. So he's not always like this So So I thought that was interesting I'd never known that but like for for his marathon session for the marathon things that he does It makes a whole lot of sense. So oh, yeah, and that's kind of a good, you know There's a practical reason to that. Yeah So now all right more about the um the the performer the that that is playing as Animal and grover. I mean, what's his name? His name is eric roberton roberton eric I should know his name. Okay, that's eric something. That's fine. So, uh, is he a drummer? He is not a drummer. He uh, I mean, I don't know I could I could ask him but um He's just been animal forever and he just knows what to do and he sort of just makes it happen But he's not a drummer interesting. Okay, because I he's a puppeteer. He's a puppeteer, but I think that uh One thing that that shouldn't be kind of glossed over is the is the eric jacobson. That's his name. Sorry Okay, jay eric jacobson and one thing I well a kudos to eric jacobson because I think that the attention to detail of Playing that because you even see it's talking been it's been brought up on the show before of like movies where drummers are just Real humans are so far off. They're not even remotely on. He's he's really does a great job I was also on that note just sort of sidebar. I was watching pan and tommy today Yeah, uh for whatever reason I watched it and and sebastian stan I thought like he was fairly convincing I his left hand when he hit this nair drum was totally not convincing But like some of the like some of the like splash grabs and stuff like that. Like he was nailing some of that stuff I was impressed. Yeah, and that Just his his his movements are very tommy, you know Yeah, I have a friend who who like that's his job. He trained. Uh, what was the guy about his drummer and he goes deaf Oh, um, the sound of metal. Yeah, riz Ahmed or whatever his name is. Yeah, yeah My friend was a friend from high school was his drummer and trained him to play drums I thought was really interesting and that you know kind of fantastic that said people can pull that off I didn't see that movie. But yeah, yeah, I think that uh, that's something I've heard another You know things I've listened to where they'll say, oh, yeah, I learned to play guitar Or piano to to to make it seem like it but then they leave and they're kind of like, you know I've heard people say they don't They don't go home and are now an amazing drummer or pianist. They kind of fake their way through it. Um We did that with uh, Andrew Garfield on tic-tac-boom for sure Like he was a piano player and he was not a piano player or a singer really and we sort of made him into one For the movie and he really went into it and uh And kind of nailed it, which is yeah, you just got to do what you can to get to get through it Which is uh, I don't I don't know if it would be easier or harder as a muppet to be, you know Operating it underneath now. Again, the question would be uh, how do they Like are you choreographing because a real drummer is playing the parts that the muppet Is playing so with those What happens is so he he is playing With his hands with those rods of the puppet He is playing different parts of the of the drum set. It's all plastic or whatever it is and he'll hit it But you can so you can kind of hear what he's doing. So then what we do This is a good part is what we do is in post we watch it and we sort of match The drums to him. There's no one playing live with him. There are situations where that has happened not on this Uh, uh, whenever someone is playing whenever Grover is or whoever is playing the drums. It's all done in post So our drummer so the drummer for the sesame street band who I should talk about is this guy named Michael Croyder. He was The drummer at avenue q for like 10 years and his cheetah reveres drummer and is a bunch of he's an unbelievable drummer And he's been with us forever and he also mixes a lot of the stuff for sesame street. Anyway, uh, so he will watch these things And then between him and our orchestrator assistant music director joe fowler. Who's a trombone player? They'll sort of map out like what he's doing And so then mike will just sort of Flail about until it sort of works with picture. That's how we do it which seems crazy, but that's what it is. I mean I Never what's crazy is I never would have thought of that But my sort of compared to you small experience in tv and film is doing the adr the dialogue replacement stuff Which is sort of like That that's sort of adr for drumming exactly the same thing I never would have thought of that. It's syncing, you know, and I it's um I I feel dumb now because I watch it now and i'm like man I thought it was like a choreograph thing or if they're looking off to the side at a drummer I mean that's it makes perfect sense. Well, we had talked previously about the buddy rich thing My wonder is if the buddy rich thing is there was someone offstage doing it? also We've had situations where like ernie was playing a trumpet and we brought our trumpet player Kenny rampanton onto the set and he actually played on the set and then ernie mined it like we've done the live version too Yeah Uh, yeah, but with the drums at least we do it all in post. That's that's for sure and um, we should talk about that now because um, the buddy rich thing so so Well before that just to clarify Muppets And sesame street are not the same but the henson jim henson characters are all muppets, but the brand mupp kermit miss piggy Fuzzy bear those are muppets and then elmo grover. Um, you know big bird sesame street sesame street. Yeah That's that's usually how it's conceived of I think yeah. Yeah, gotcha But that being said animal, uh, which it's pretty neat that um, that the same guy is doing animal and uh Grover and all that stuff that's kind of he's kind of crossing like Lines actually actually you should I think we should give credit to all of the pups So the way that those particular puppets work animal. I think it's like The hand goes in the major part to do the mouth and then there's two rods For the hands. Oh, I see some sometimes one person does both rods or sometimes two people Do one does each rod so it could be a total of three people who are actually making animal actually play I don't know. I've never seen animal in person Um, but uh, I have watched grover and grover. That's what it was I think it was three different people to sort of all playing the drums at the same time Okay, so to everyone who's involved if they're somehow, let's say they do a great job but I mean animal is uh is I don't know. I feel like he's um Just an iconic he he is a Like like a visual like an image of of what drummers use kind of like with like car guys There's like the rat think kind of like uh visual He's he's like, you know, how many people have an animal tattoo or like an animal sitting on their their drum set. So Um, obviously it's not Sesame Street, but it's worth noting that the buddy rich video which I'll post on Social media. I want to just read this because I I asked a buddy rich Um, really diehard fan lewis bernstein earlier. I said, can you give me any more info about buddy on? The Muppets kind of knowing that we would be talking about it a little bit, but it's it's different So he said hey bart from what I know the show was filmed in england Animals drumming was done by ronnie verrell who played with the drummer He was the drummer for ted heath for many years and was fantastic If you watch the full version buddy is playing his sticks on theater walls If you listen to the audio of buddy traps sound effects from a vitaphone film He sounds the same that particular trap sound effects Um Film which the old the audio is the only thing exists is from when buddy was I believe 12 years old It's cool because you can hear that same sound of him playing on the walls and it sounds the same when he was 12 And I I think kathy rich his daughter was the one who pushed him to do Uh to be on the Muppets. Yeah, and um, and it really kind of revitalized his His image for the youth of the world So well didn't he didn't he had that at that point just become like this Or was known as like this jerky band leader who just like three sticks of people and was like a total jerk I mean like that's a sadly like buddy rich to me is is similar to like like john bonham or keith moon They're like the more so keep moon. They're like these polar things. They're known for like your unbelievable talent And then there's terrible side of them There's like seems to be at least what the public knew was like no middle ground right Which I think is sad because buddy rich was like this phenom right and like most If you're not like a jazz ad you don't really know who buddy rich is Right, but like which I think is you know, which I think is a bummer because he was just so freaking talented But anyway, I just to go back for one second like you're talking about animal to me Animal is a combination of all the greatest drummers put together So like if Keith moon and bonham and like ginger baker and blah blah blah all got together and had a baby Or like each gave like like like Like ginger baker's left foot and like bottoms right foot and like whatever like all kind of merged one thing Buddy hands or something. Yeah, that's how I think about it And also like buddy like Like to me like he took every like all the rudiment tree stuff and just like put it on Bionic speed like it's all the stuff that you practice and stuff is like a drummer Like traditional gripping stuff and da da da da and then and then he just did it like 300 times better than anyone else, right? It was it was all the same stuff But like he was just like so bad ass at it that it was just like Yeah, I mean he's uh, he's been covered and talked about a lot on the show and I will say that You know you want to say respectfully that yes I mean buddy was an icon and everyone loves him But there are the buddy rich tapes which are famous of someone recorded on on the bus Which ended up in like Seinfeld episodes and stuff, but uh, yeah, he had kind of a very tough Uh, he didn't put up with anything that he didn't like So so to have him on a kids show playing with a uh, you know a muppet which I guess a question would be how How big is I know you haven't seen him, but if you had to guess roughly how big Like a couple like a foot and a half too. Yeah, not very big. Yeah, they're always smaller than you think interesting, um Just to see buddy going at that and and and having fun. He appeared to have fun Um, because he was a child star. So I mean, I think he understands that that stuff But that's such an iconic, uh, yeah, it's a great moment. I hadn't watched it until I mean I I had seen it, but I hadn't like watched it in full until you benched it to me and It's it's really great. Like it's really, you know, and also there's some other great moments We were talking before not to change the subject, but well about rhythm in Sesame Street Like there's just like little tidbits about like people playing Different native instruments of Africa or something else or like all kinds of stuff and it's all based in rhythm And so every year we have like a curriculum seminar where we go and we learn about like what the year's curriculum It's gonna be for example like Like sustained science technology. Oh, uh math and then like like this year The next couple years about racial injustice. So like everything that sort of Caps around that but like in years past it had been about You know just about particular math things and so it was like, well, what are we gonna do? Musically and then the answer was like, well, what works with kids all the time and the and the answers were always like, like, uh Call and repeats and then like just repeating things generally speaking and being very rhythmic about things So like when I'm writing songs for Sesame Street and when I tell people how to write songs, I'm always saying Write something that's an earworm on top of an earworm So like an earworm verse an earworm chorus the same earworm verse the same earworm chorus And you're out because you only have like a minute and a half to do it And then I'm like and while you're doing that like create a pulse Like I think the thing that kids these days are looking for at least what my kids listen to on the radio is all based in rhythm Everything is based with even there's no more ballads, right? There's no more like ballads with no time, right? everything even like um Easy on me the Adele thing, right which came out has like a pulsing Kick drum that happens like, I don't know by the second verse and so like like everything has a rhythm There's so few just like like I'm working on a thing Like just doing like a like when does the orchestra ever play without a rhythm section, right? Like that barely happens every anymore. So it's just like everything's, you know So plus like everything's on a click and blah blah blah We don't teach like people how to have time anymore, but that's a whole other subject all together So so yeah, so I think like with sesami street It was like it was like that the consistency of rhythm Helps to really get out whatever Helps to get out of the way so we can focus on the thing and it also becomes like what I like to call like some sort of Trans situation where like a kid's watching something and they just like get into the song and the hope is is like if if they can um Like in their movements or the rhythm of the thing to what it's actually trying to teach And all those things trying to get smushed in together and the kid actually learns something and you're doing your job Right, I mean like in that day like I can write the greatest song ever If it's not being used as a teaching mechanism to particularly for sesami street, then what's the point, right? So yeah, yeah, well and and to get kind of philosophical about it Those those beats where it's just consistent and you're talking with kids bass drum sometimes notice the the mother drum Because it's a heartbeat these kids aren't too far away from being in their mom's womb You know, I mean I can tell you from having a two-year. I mean, I remember watching I had a my son was born in 2019 After, you know, a couple months later. We're all stuck at home in 2020. So sesami street was on a lot and um And it it it it just kind of it feels good and it's something that's You're not just you don't you guys don't talk down to kids like there are certain I think other people to understand youtube is great. I love youtube this will be on youtube this video, but uh, there are certain people Who are very popular where it's like bizarre and I don't really like it Yeah, and uh, and it's just like wait your kids get older. It's a whole other. Oh, I bet. I bet I bet but I mean so that's good to know about the curriculum and how you guys you guys mix it into everything and so We'll keep it the conversation rhythmic and percussive, but I just want to say that the topics that you cover are uh You got to almost think of things as a child like crossing the street and holding You know your hand and I remember um, there was someone who was talking about a mr. Rogers episode Which is obviously different but everyone loves mr. Rogers About uh, not being scared to be sucked down the drain in the bathtub And I remember a dad or someone thought it was some documentary This might be a popular thing that other people have seen but said he said This I thought it was the stupidest thing in the world I thought why are we watching this such a waste of time until the kid his son Became scared of being washed and sucked down the um the drain and then it hit him like oh, okay There is a reason so for you guys to think of these minor little things Make a big song out of it Sharing whatever and add rhythm to it is it's really powerful. You know I agree It's it's sometimes it's more powerful than you even think about and then you go and you see the effects of some of These songs that I've written or people have you know gotten in touch with me and like this But also people got in touch with me even like holy cow my daughter will knows how to do this because of this song you wrote it's just very That's a surreal experience. Yeah, and I truly think that like oh my uh, whatever you whoever is Saying this my son my daughter Wants to be a drummer because they saw quest love playing on sesame street And they're gonna buy a Ludwig kit because they saw that logo that wasn't covered Winning and winning Yes So another one that I want to bring up which I I don't expect you to have seen every single one of these I think this was before your time was the great dame eval and glennie who who performed on there who is a unbelievable percussionist who happens to be deaf and She was on there and I'll post this online so people can see it, but she was talking with um Oscar and I believe it was grover and they were Oscar was of course being classic oscar talking about, you know, I don't want you're not going to be in the grouch Geteers, I believe was the band And breaking down about how she had to take her shoes off to feel the the feel the music And and she's playing his trash cans and kind of warms him up. There's something so I guess just that that dichotomy, I guess you'd say of of Or the juxtaposition to throw big words out there of of oscar being grouchy And then you warm him up with this woman who's amazing percussionist who has is deaf Was really really really powerful And just and just very cool to see that Which I guess there's not a question there. It's more of a comment But it raises too of how do you guys on the on the uh on the technical side? How do you mic things up on stage like because she was playing trash cans and and all that stuff, you know Yeah, uh technically wise, uh It depends on the gig It depends on who's there like for example, like when Anderson pockley we were talking about was on the thing Like we had all these drums, but they were all muffled so that we didn't hear anything, right? But like we had Trying to remember. Oh, okay. Here's a good example. We did this thing called elmo's late night talk show Uh, which is fantastic. We had sarah berellis on and sarah berellis brought mona. Takavoli. Do you know her? She's jason moran's percussionist and she plays cajon and like shakers and all this other stuff but um She has this custom it's her own, you know line of cajon And uh and sarah played ukulele and her another woman who's in jason span played ukulele and Mona and so like, you know, you you hike it you might get and monitor it just like in any other rock show Right, so we're just like sticking sm7s and things around and doing everything, you know And then like I don't know with some punchy bass drum mic We put him into the cajon and like I wasn't really paying attention a lot I probably should have and then like, you know, she sings into shores and sennheiser's and stuff like that And the the ukuleles went direct because that's what ukuleles do and sure blah blah blah with quest though I don't remember what the mics was a 2 a k like 4 14s above him and then like some other stuff. I don't remember Yeah, but like it might have been I think it wouldn't surprise me if that's what it was And he uses that he didn't have it like that crazy thing that he puts on the Sub thing that he puts on the kick drum, which I don't think he had but like that makes it sound amazing Yeah, no, that's awesome. No, it's good to know that because sometimes it might be um Uh, I don't know a specific thing where there's like, you know, like little mics around that are picking things up But drums are not the same as like a vocalist where they might have like a mic kind of hidden or a love But because drums are loud drums are extremely loud. Um, so that's cool. All right, so then, um I think historically there's some really cool ones that I'll just mention that that again I don't expect you have seen every single one of these but there's a really cool old video of of uh Some kids finding a 50 gallon drum rolling it through new york. They take it They cut it. They make a steel drum like a steel pan out of it Uh, and just things like that where I don't think kids would ever be exposed to that kind of how that's made Uh, those those little like side segments that you guys go out and shoot Yeah, um, how does how do those typically work? I mean, is that just a separate crew that goes out and films and so we have like this our own separate film department And the way the films work is they're sort of outsourced and so we'll come up with topics and like things and we'll we'll put out Things to filmed film people who make short films be like, do you want to do a Or we want to do a thing about drums and filming or drums in The city and someone will come back with a proposal and then we'll sort of go out to them The ones that are music heavy like I'm sort of I sort of consult on just to make sure like they sound good and like um, I sometimes write the music for the underscoring of these and that but um But yeah, and then like people just come back with their ideas. I think it's cool You know now nowadays. It's what we call user generated content in the past. It was just called films And so so, you know, it's it's different now But um, but yeah, it gives it gives people who watch the show and are inspired by it sort of like you and anybody really to to try to Try to get you know, have some input in it, which I think is really cool I've always thought those interstitials are cool There's one in we have a music episode called Elmo's music magic where there's like a whole thing about people about beatboxing and there's a whole thing about The wind instruments where there's just a bunch of kids running around playing wind instruments, but that are not traditional wind instruments Um, yeah, just stuff like that. I think it's great. Yeah There was one I was watching today Obviously, I watched a lot of these kind of in preparation for this and uh, there was one where Elmo I believe went to a drum school in new york and was playing with all these little kids and it was just so cool and um, I think Kids obviously are have a lot of fun talking to the the Muppets, but It it must be kind of uh, I feel like adults might and you would know this adults might might sometimes famous adults who are performers Do people sometimes feel silly at first and have to like let down their guard like I'm talking to you know, uh Some fabric on someone's hand. Sure. Does that take a little getting used to sometimes or for the most part I like to think that the two I think there's two things I think about this like walking on to the set of sesame street Is what I always tell people is like walking into the oval office I've never walked into the oval office, but I assume that it's the same thing where like all of the air the air changes The temperature changes like everything's different. Even if it didn't change at all, right? It's just like a very different and like people are just like you can see like their whole childhood like flashes before their eyes and then when they meet a Muppet, I I mean Most of the time when parents come they had their kids with them. And so to watch this experience through your kid You're like, holy cow. This is unbelievable. And then the parent Weirdly and or not has most of the time has the same exact uh reaction because because you as a kid wanted to meet lmo or a grover also And so when you actually do get to meet him and also Like I for example when I started working there was like embarrassed and weird about it So I would never look them in the eye look the puppet in the eye And so now I do it all the time So like if I'm talking to grover I'm talking to grover like this so that you know We can really have a conversation with them because that's that's the thing Like you want that suspension of disbelief as much as possible Like you want that's the whole goal of the whole thing And so I feel like I feel like if you don't If you aren't doing that then like the magic's lost on you. Not that that's a bad thing But it's just like it's a different it's a different sort of thing. I will say A great story about I brought my daughter when she was like four or something And she was just like like out of like couldn't believe what was happening And then I brought her two years later and she kept on looking behind elmo to see like what was going on behind him So she had like she was older and sort of like the the magic was different Like it was it was she was still like holy cow But it was like she's like it was more being like inquisitive like how is this happening right as opposed to just being like A piece of felt is talking to me. Right. Yeah, so it's a different It's the magic always changes But the good news is if I think it's like it's always magical like yeah, no matter what age you are You meet a abbey or elmo and you're just like holy cow. It's a purse. It's a real thing. It's an absolute thing, you know Yeah, and it's like the um the disney thing where you never want to see them with their heads off You know what I mean because it terrifies kids But that that has to be a little bit of like uh, you're seeing how the you know, the product is made So it's a little different than seeing it on screen where you never see The hands and the operators or anything like that, but I'm sure you get it's your job You get used to that pretty quickly you do so um I mean, this is all is there any other drum stuff that comes to mind for you I know there was a really cool one about I love that you guys are very multicultural There's taiko episodes. There's awesome stuff. I mean, it's it's it's so eclectic and and you just learn about things that as a I was watching the taiko one earlier and as an adult who has 150 plus hours Of doing these these episodes I think it's just seriously awesome to To see that and and learn things from these puppets, you know, it's just very very cool I will say just like elastic uh, my favorite one of my favorite people who came on who didn't play drums Is a drummer is dave grohl and I didn't I wrote that song um uh And I didn't get to go to la to meet him or haven't or be at the recording session I was so bummed because I had to do something but um, he is one of my favorite drummers of all time and uh Was one of my favorite guests of all time just because like he bought into it immediately Like he was just so and like he's also done some stuff with the muppets like all of that stuff that he does with animal and all that stuff Which is great. Yeah, he's he's one of my favorite people. So I just wanted to say his name out loud Oh, yeah, yeah, because um When I emailed you I said, you know drummers on the show uh that we should talk about dave grohl And then I was looking into it and watching and it was like, oh, yeah, he played guitar You know, it's it wasn't because you know, but he does do them the the animal stuff, um, but awesome bill well, um This is just so cool. So you obviously do a bunch of other stuff, uh with especially with lin menwell moranda. Um That's just that's gotta be I mean you you were doing some really big big Films we've done some fun stuff. We did the in the heights movie. We did tick tick boom. Yes He did incanto, which was like the biggest freaking song movie ever. Yeah, so great. Um, yeah we've been friends since college and uh We were roommates for like five years after college and we remain I was the best man at his wedding, although I didn't get to go because my daughter was born on the same day It's his as his wedding Geez that takes precedence a little bit. Yeah We were there at the birth of both of our all of our children and he's a you know, he's been a Really good friend and it's very very funny to watch him sort of rise into superstardom But you know, we always just sort of we call each other a lot and like FaceTime and shoot the shit and so Yeah, it's a great person That's awesome. All right. Well, um I think this is great. It's just a fun. It's kind of a different episode than talking about the history of Ludwig or something Where it's very drum. I like to keep it eclectic and have people along with you who who uh, I mean What a cool job and I love that you are not Jaded as meant might not be the right word or just uh, just you know, you understand the importance of what you're doing And it is very cool. So, uh, is there anywhere you want to tell people to find more about you or anything like that? I have a website pop music misery.com. You can find me on instagram and be sherman 2 2 2 2 I think and the same thing on twitter and um, yeah There's that's me Cool. Well, um, again, so thanks to louis bernstein for giving me some buddy info and thanks to greg wells for Always very well without even I mean trying he helped me So everyone can also check out the quest love supreme podcast with you I mean that's everything you're doing is very cool and you're a hard-working guy and uh, I'm I'm glad it's paying off and uh, I appreciate you being on the podcast Absolutely. Good luck with the second kid. Uh, You're going back to man to man man on man. It's tough. It's long. It's a long road, but uh, be strong Thank you. Thanks bill. Hi barp