 Maybe one or two more, one minute, maybe. Hey, Eugenio, great to see you. Hello, everyone. Great to see you. Great to see you. Great to see you. I also see you. So nice to see you back. Hi, hi everyone. So anyway, we will start in a moment. The first thing is we have to talk about. The policies of the. The next foundation. Two main policies. One is the fact that. We are bound by the antitrust policy of wherever you're logging in from. So please keep that in mind. Second is. We are bound by the antitrust policy of wherever you're logging in. Basically allowing people to speak. And even if you do not disagree with people, please do not be nasty. In short. So these are the only two things that govern. This is a completely open call. There are, there's the main event is Mike. Proposing. The subgroup for now. So let me lead off with the one thing, which is. Several people have suggested to me. That the name of the group is. Not appropriate at the moment because. It is no longer dealing just with capital markets. But with all. You know, all. Things that have to do with finance, including payments. And as we know that the. First use case for blockchain is in the payment space. So that's. Definitely part of our. Part of our remit because no capital markets system will exist without a payment rail. And obviously the speed and the assurance of the payment rails. Control. Other features like. Liquidity. Like. You know, the pace at which the market proceeds. Settles. The other part that we haven't. Talked about is the. Is the fact that we also deal in short term. That capital markets are normally for. Long term. So. The suggestion is to name this as a. Finance. Special interest group. That would encompass everything. Including infrastructure. Because, you know, if you name it finance. And. Financial markets and infrastructure, then it becomes a little. Too big. The name to. Make sense. So. Finance. Was the suggestion. And I'm writing up a short. Rational. For changing the name. What are the implications of the name change? It means that all our resources. That are. That are currently on the CM sick will. Go to F. SIG. And. I don't know what to do about the. You know, the references that we have all over the place. For that. And I'm. You know, I would like to hear. Responses from people about this because. We do focus a lot on. CBDCs, for example, which is. Currently. You know, in, in the news. Of course, the other, other thing that's in the news is. What's happening to defy, especially stable coins. Has been a lot of. Press about it, but we had noted. Before. Some other problems with the algorithmic stable coins. And even with the regular stable coins because. Stable coin is just a. Marketing term. In a sense. Sometimes they're not stable nor coins. But. You know, the point is. That it, this is. Like all marketing terms. When reality. Meets. The solution. For people who are complaining that this was an attack by. Some particular parties and so on. You know, I think. If your. Solution cannot. Which stand the rigor. So. The real world. Which in this case. Do not even have regulation. Anyway, enough about stable coins. Maybe we'll have. Another session on that. Later, maybe in Mike's subgroup. So. Before we start. I want to introduce Mike McCoy. Who was the chair of the. Hyperledger healthcare group. As part of. He has developed solutions there. But now he has moved into the. New economy. Into. Block demon. Which used to be an infrastructure. Provider, but now I think they are getting into. Define. So Mike. I think you should take it away. And talk about. Your subgroup, what your aims are. And how we can help how we can collaborate. Especially with the lab project or something like that. So. I'm going to. Mute myself. All right. Can everyone hear me? Yeah. All right. I'm going to try to start. My computer's just doing a little slowness right now. But. Give me a moment. I should be able to present. Awesome. So. No, I just want to. All right. Let me know if you can see this as well. We'll take a hot second. More than a New York minute. Yeah, right. All right. Cool. Good morning, everyone. My name is Mike. Just a little bit about myself. For the past two years actually. As I've been mentioned, I was running the healthcare special interest group. I was working in a human and more so from about. 2018-2019 till. 2021. I was solely focused on everything healthcare blockchain healthcare life science blockchain. And I was able to build a lot of different. Projects, including running this. Project with the synaptic health alliance. That helped. Enable better reconciliation of payments and claims. Within health insurance claims called provider data exchange. And prior to that, I worked at Accenture and consensus. And a whole lot of different use cases. Not only within healthcare, but mostly in financial and. Another type of use cases as well. So I went from going fully decentralized protocols from 16, 17, 18. So they're working on permissioned blockchains from 19, 2021. And now working at block daemon and doing a combo of. We are a staking, you know, infrastructure provider. So if you are a large institution or bank and you want to be able to stake at scale, we provide solutions there. But we're also adding in the five components and other methods with your reward or your staking rewards. And we're also adding in the five components and other methods with your reward or your staking rewards. And being able to use that in defy pools into a lot of other things, but I want to present because I talked to Karen, a Tommy who's also the ecosystem lead at here at hyper ledger. And she believed that though my focus is more into defy and more into financial use cases that this group can kind of benefit from some of my defy work as well. So I'm just going to give it like a high overview, but I'll talk about how I like to present a defy subgroup. If this group believes that defy subgroup. If this group believes that would be of value to everyone. So it's no secret recently that like defy and stable coins out of the growth, algorithmic stable coins have really gotten a lot of pressure. We know about the terror and Luna crash that when, you know, a market maker could be able to create a death spiral within that community. It just went down and went into trouble. There are hacks within defy communities and open source working groups such as axi infinity, into bridges such as wormhole and into other defy protocol governance protocols such as beanstalk and others. And this just happened within the past couple of months, right? But though there is a lot of hacks and though there are a lot of attempts to be able to control these type of fully decentralized networks, there are still a lot of people that are getting into this space. And so. With all these potential, you know, errors in these spaces, I think there's only room to really go up. And there's a high level of education and a high level of, of technical. Definitions that need to be put into this place, into the space to really make sense for everyone and everyday people to get a hold of it. And so the defy ecosystem is quite large. There are, there are, there are, a ton of players in the space. It goes, it goes from everywhere between exchanges and liquidity derivatives credit and lending, actual payments. There are some marketplaces on here. And then there's a bunch of asset management. But what really is coming into play that I'm seeing in everyday conversations with clients that I'm interacting with. Is how we're getting real world securities, real world mortgages, real world assets into crypto. And so the defy ecosystem is quite large. There are a ton of players in the space. There are a ton of players in the space. And so you can get really, really, really, really, really into crypto native protocols to be able to earn rewards as well as to be able to stake those assets. And be able to connect them to the full decentralized web. And so this space is only growing as, as you can see here. Now defy is not that old. And it really only came into play probably around 2019. When most people were actually familiar with it. or even 2020 where there was real growth, you could actually see that it went from zero to a hundred billion dollars in just two years. At its peak, it was somewhere around 275 billion in value as well. Some could say it's a bubble, some could say it's a pop, but there's clearly a lot of real world revenue that is actually going into this space and it's still quite young. It already has a large chunk of financial wealth. If you look at other banks that are in the world today, if DeFi were to represent the largest US bank, it would be 31st in total assets under management. And this is from DeFi Lama that is a website that is able to connect and curate all this information. So I think it's early right now. And one of my main points I'm trying to make today is that we are early and we are probably in like the early adopter stage and it's only going to grow and get better. And with that needing to get better, we need to be able to have better education through communities and open source communities like the Hyperledger one to be able to make it more meaningful. Now institutions who think, okay, well, that's just going to, they're gonna stay away from it. It's a little bit more of an error. We wanna be able to put our money into safer assets, especially when, you know, stock markets are crashing, cryptos crashing, et cetera. But this past week, when we saw a dip in Luna and Terra, we actually saw more institutions put money into crypto assets than they have all year long. And yes, a lot of that is because of the dip and a lot of that is because, hey, it's a cheap asset. Why not just buy it up while it's cheap? But I think that just goes to show that people aren't just fleeing away from crypto. They're looking for the next bull run to come around. And DeFi isn't just an internet casino. And I think like a lot of times in previous presentations within this SIG and others, we've mostly, you mostly have talked about DeFi for fraud prevention or risk management and things like that. But DeFi can be able to do so much more than that. It can be able to actually improve operational costs, improve margin costs, improve overall spend and actually get more bang for your buck when it comes to people, technical debt, technical infrastructure, et cetera. And so it's a real opportunity for banks to be able to take away some of their technical debt and be able to really expand profits using these protocols in the right way. And today, like, TradFi is actually starting to use and utilize crypto products and projects. And some of these are functional, but a lot of them are in proof of concept and pilot stages. But you could see that crypto back lending is pretty popular. You could see that facilitating and client exposure to crypto is gaining traction as well as institutional crypto derivative trading for option vaults and futures. Those ones are absolutely growing across the board. And all these banks, all these traditional financial institutions really want to learn more about it. And so, whoa, shit, that scared the hell out of me. That sneeze, but I'm sorry about that. Anyway, there's more legitimacy coming in the space is what I'm trying to say here. And it can only go up. Now, before the Luna crash numbers, all these numbers that are DeFi based we're looking pretty good when you compare year over year. And so, if that crash one to happen, who knows, right? Like markets go up and down constantly, but these numbers are quite expansive and can really help someone, help a fund, help a family office, help a market maker, liquidity provider really get some benefit from these natively DeFi and decentralized protocols. But it's also very important to learn what is actually under the hood of these things. See for Terra, right? They had negative equity that you would burn Luna to then solidify UST. And a lot of that was just, and people were saving their money up in an anchor in the savings protocol that would give you 20% yield year over year. And that's just not sustainable, right? Some of these other DeFi protocols or DeFi communities probably have a lot more, a lot more collateral to be able to actually back what is funding their ecosystems or what are generating yields in their networks. And I think it's very important to learn the lessons from issues and negative scenarios like Terra and how these other ones are truly growing in the space today and compared to traditional markets and how we're doing that as well. And so DeFi and crypto are moving towards legitimacy. Right now, this past week compound, for example, received an S&P credit rating. It's a B minus and so it's an iffy grade, but they're trying to get regulation and they're trying to be very forward thinking in how everyday markets can be able to evaluate them from an investment standpoint. Crypto also is getting more regulatory focus from Janet Yellen and her groups and being able to have more crypto staffs not for enforcement, but for understanding and educational purposes. And even NASDAQ is posting out articles left and right about how lenders borrowers and traders will be using DeFi to be able to challenge primitive systems. And I really just think education in this space and bringing communities together like the hyperledger community and understanding how and why this is building could be really valuable. So I also want to potentially go into more details on stable coins as they've mentioned. There's obviously Fiat-backed stable coins, there's crypto-backed ones and there's algorithmic ones. I think we learned a little bunch of lessons on algorithmic stable coins and how you can be able to actually create supply and demand. And this is still like a very forward thinking may not even really be a method that people will utilize in the future due to examples of Tera but always truly an experiment really forward. So the long story short of it is this is how I kind of want to run or would propose running a DeFi subgroup. When I was with the hyperledger healthcare special interest group, we had just sections in our overall Wiki that showed upcoming events so that people could be able to attend. We also had industry news research and group action items that people could join into as well as a lot of education material on like what crypto was, what blockchain was, how it affects everyone in healthcare and life science and things like that. I would just every two weeks be able to create a very similar recap of everything that went on. We go through the news, we go through the research together as a group, talk it out and kind of go back and forth and understand what is hype, what is real and be able to then educate others that may be a little bit new to the space on how this technology can work. So that's really just what my proposal is is being able to have an educational based understanding group. Maybe we create, I'm not saying we're creating an actual protocol, we're actually create any type of tools within the subgroup as of today. I think at first we wanna make it more educational and then if we do see a need in industry for this or that and there are open source contributors that have the time and bandwidth to be able to make this happen, that's great. But I wanna bring in like industry leaders at other funds and other banks and other institutions around the world to come together and just educate each other on what is actually hype and what is real. And yeah, that's pretty much my presentation. Hope this is informative. Hopefully you see that there is a lot of potential in the DeFi ecosystem to generate real wealth. And I don't think of DeFi as just a short-term play. I know a lot of people think it's just like a pump and dump scheme and maybe beneficial to get short-term gains while markets are high or low but I see a lot of people in groups in my world at least today that want to be able to use DeFi in the long-term. So yeah, that was my presentation and we'd love to hear any feedback. Thank you, Mike. I think if you have any questions, now is the time to bring it up. Questions or comments? Hey, it's myself, it's Eugenio. I just wanted to really thank Mike for the presentation and share a couple of comments. Especially about the proposal. Firstly, I believe that DeFi space is actually representing a value in terms of having a play of a different game from institutional perspective. So I really believe that in our community as an expression of the capital market or the finance industry, we need to have a voice on that, we need to start to have a voice on that. And starting on the educational side may be the right approach definitely because I mean, just using myself as an example, I'm currently researching and studying on DeFi daily for work, but also as a passion. I am, for instance, more focusing on DAO initiatives but that's us for myself. So I can only be more than welcome of this initiative and I will support on my side. Any other comments? I do see Sandy asking whether it makes sense to call it financial services. We'll address that in a minute but let's talk about Mike's proposal first. Yeah, hey, Reb and yes, now I just want to put that in the comments. You know, I've actually attended, Mike, from the healthcare saga, I've attended a few of your sessions, those were very informative. So definitely welcome to see this here. Yeah, I definitely think I think it makes a lot of sense to have this subgroup and have a lot of information sharing and I'm sorry, I'm not on video today, I just taking the call from my work's PC. So, but yes, I definitely think we can add a bunch of like industry stuff going on here, like you started the session with the whole, with the whole thing, we can definitely go maybe in a little more depth and that has to exactly, like Rippon was alluding to earlier, it was not only a little, like not only the attack thing, obviously any, like just like we do in financial services, anytime we're walking on any banking application, anything is paramount that it has to be able to withstand any cyber attacks and any ransomware attacks. So same should have applied here in case of terror. So that's something we can maybe dig a little more into, also more into regulatory side of things. I think that'd be pretty helpful too. So I basically, in short, I'm looking forward to collaborating in this group today. Thank you. This is Guang Zao, I'm from Klaido. Hey, Mike, I saw that you used to work with consensus about the time you left. I went to consensus, so we didn't see or left each other, but a great presentation today. I agree with what was said. I think there's a great values of, at least to continue this discussion of DeFi in the open source community in terms of name. I came across a few, I don't have any recommendation, but just to be on the list, DeFi is one of them, regulated DeFi is another one I came across and a FinTech is FinTech. So that's all from me. Thank you, Mike, and everyone. Hey, Mike, this is Marvin Van Tuggen, a great presentation. You're following the path that we followed just several months ago. I'm from the mortgage subgroup and a lot of the things that you're going through and talking about is what we went through and we got a lot of support from Dip in it and the Hyperledger team. So definitely welcome you and I'll reach out to you because I think there is quite a bit of overlap in terms of areas where we can collaborate. I can walk you through some of the POCs that we've done, some of the education that we've done. We have a monthly meeting and I'd welcome you to join the next monthly meeting and tell our group what you're doing. And definitely I think what you're advocating I do support, so welcome. Anybody else? Yes. Thank you, Mike, for the presentation. It was very good. And I agree with Eugenio and Marvin also. I think adding the regulatory aspect would be important. I agree that education is the basis, but the framework of regulations will work. So I'm ready to help. Thank you. Anybody else? So Mike, this is Dan Schwartz, just a question. So I agree with everyone else that it was a very informative presentation and thank you for that. Organization of the information is hard. But I just wonder why the intent for the subgroup is only informational in nature and why there isn't a reach for establishing some shared protocols or prominent modes of interaction. For a DFI to really realize its potential, it seems that interaction is critical. And so just wondering why you're not taking down as part of your charter. Yeah, I would say just in the interim that a lot of people that are part of hyperledger-based communities know about DFI, but they may not know the actual intricacies of it. I'm not saying the interaction of building and getting hands dirty into software and to code would not be part of the group. I just think the initial focus would be education. Then if we keep seeing trends that are coming from either research, coming from developments of actually building product are notified. So what we did also within the healthcare sig is eventually we got to a point where every month, maybe every quarter, we went in like use cases and we settled on about eight to 10 different use cases that were actually being built in the healthcare life science industry. And so I showed on slide two or three, I believe, right here that there are categories here today, right? But as these evolve, they may become like stable coins may be less important in the future. They need more important. Like I think just being able to really identify these and have our group a little bit more aware of them as time goes on could be more vital for a general understanding. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be any technical build or protocols that can be built within the subgroup to make it more useful for us. I just say that wouldn't be the initial focus probably in the first two months. Thank you. Yeah, and it's really up to what the community decides too. If we believe like, hey, let's get down dirty. Let's like, let's bring in a hyper-legit-based protocol. I'm all for it, but yeah. Anyone else? Mike, I lost a slide. Can you make the larger so I can take a look? Sorry, sorry for interrupting. Sure, I'll put it back on. You see it? You know, hopefully we can share these slides, but before we do that, we'll have some comments on that too from me anyway. Cool. Yeah, I'll share this with you at the end, but then to share it with the rest of the group. We did have another comment, I believe from someone else. You have any more comments? And so that I can start my talk. Hey, Reppen. Just one more thing to add in there. Mike, probably this is something I can also reach out to you and Reppen. I'm looking at specifically about the enterprise architectural paradigm between trade-fi and then de-fi. In fact, I'm supposed to be having a presentation by itself on that. So there's something I'd like to walk with you guys on. So I have some thoughts on my head and I want to run them by you and see how we can present that. Especially in terms of what are the most striking differences between when it comes to enterprise architecture, like in terms of trade-fi and de-fi. Typically, I can think about the highest level, the use of data, data services, articles. And of course, in terms of how you can still have more control on your enterprise architecture within the trade-fi system, but you really can't have much of that in the de-fi system. I just first glance at that. For example, I blocked a one of the core products I'm launching is something called permission liquid staking, where a lot of it's having a permission state before connecting to de-fi protocols. So we are doing KYC, KYB, AML checks on automated market makers, liquidity providers, and then creating a liquidity pool from your staking rewards and having a dual token model where, yes, you put in, let's just say you put in $6 million worth of ETH. And then from there, you have your $6 million peg. But then any rewards you get on there, you have rewards that go back to your digital wallet that then you can be able to use in de-fi protocols and be able to potentially expand on your rewards or do a little playing with that in the liquidity pool. So a lot of it comes with permissioning, and a lot of it comes from actually pegging and actually having collateral based on your assets and your pools or your networks. But yeah, and then oracles help with that, but a lot of times oracles can some automate processes that are unforeseen to the rest of their group. Totally agree. And again, I mean, it depends on how much other things gone on the oracles themselves. Because obviously otherwise you're depending on the oracles in there, there's automated processes and then you have no control on that. So totally agree. So yeah, I'll reach out to you guys on that, but that's something I think we can also, even from an informational point of view, I think that'd be really helpful if we can add that in here. Perfect. I'm Marca's hand up. Yeah. Thank you. Mr. Liberati. Yes, thank you very much. And a nice overview. I just wanted to sort of comment because your last slide sort of sparked a thought because often I've seen these types of slides where they're breaking down the DeFi players into sort of the different subcategories within the space. But I think what would be very useful in sort of looking at a pro regulatory approach would also be just as you've sort of broken down stable coins into algorithmic and collateralized even within that space, there are so many more architectural choices to just collateralize it on chain or off chain verification of that collateral if it's sort of all crypto itself or if you're actually using off chain assets. And similar with algorithmic models use different stability mechanisms to try to provide that peg or that reference point. So I think there'd be utility in not getting too technical as you sort of caution against but also having that sort of taxonomy build so that one can sort of look from a different perspective at the choices that those companies have made in providing DeFi services. And then you can also then identify some of the strengths and weaknesses to each of those models. And I think that would sort of shape and guide the discussions going forward. Thank you over. 100% that's highly valuable. And I know there's like, there's this company like two, three years ago created like the token taxonomy framework. It never got really real generation amongst enterprises and anyone outside of Microsoft because Microsoft tried to launch it. But I think creating like a DeFi taxonomy framework of stable coins of yield generating platforms of option vaults or whatever they are. We could create tons of those mechanisms that would help us all think better about this too. Mark, you're done, your hand. Okay. Yeah. So anyone else? Well, a couple of things. One is you know, as well as I do that this is an open forum, open source where other people are there. So normally we do not brand our presentations maybe just mention that you're a member of the block team. And but you know, if every slide I just took a thing that like I had internally anyway. I understand. I understand. I mean, it's a very difficult thing to get around because obviously you have a day job and that informs what you're doing every day, obviously. And this was sort of the challenge with Xeventus and Marvin with the mortgage subgroup as well. Because it's often difficult to switch the hats. The other thing is that we did not just have the dangers of DeFi. We had actually people presenting on various aspects, including institutionalization through insurance. For example, creating insurance into the DAO so that the institutional players are more comfortable in coming into the community. This was a pure, this was pure so-called DeFi. This was the bank, I think it was a bank or network. And of course, Mark Richardson who presented it also presented quite at length on the way in which some of the AMMs work and also DEX's work. I wonder what the effects of the rollout of staking in Ethereum itself will have on this ecosystem. Staking is a double-edged sword from as far as I'm concerned because it gives you a sense of security because it gives power to the entrenched people with a lot of coins. So it's basically a plutocratic situation. That means the more coins you have, the more powerful your voice is. And I know that Vitalik had created a protocol quadratic body which is basically based on suppressing that incredible effect of whales being able to control the protocol. And this is a problem in almost all so-called decentralized protocols because the protocols do favor the people with a lot of coins or a lot of liquidity state or a lot of governance coins which causes asymmetric effects. In fact, I have a feeling that some of the terror stuff that we have seen has something to do with that. So these are sort of systemic problems with the so-called decentralized autonomous organizations which have to be addressed that some, to make it more decentralized or in my opinion, the use of the word decentralized itself is problematic because in the network theory distributed from decentralized in the original paper that this word is taken from, decentralized is a way in an evolution towards distributed. But in our industry, decentralized has taken on value and more than it's meaning implies. But anyway, that's besides the point. In terms of the actual mechanics of how we're gonna do this, we probably, I mean, I don't know, it's up to you but start off with a once a month meeting which does not coincide with ours or maybe we can even host a couple of meetings of the DeFi subgroup inside ours. Now coming back to the name which Sandy had commented on, which is basically that it should be called financial services. I think that is a, I mean, we do concern ourselves with financial services. This is the old, I worked in an investment bank for many years and there was a divide between business and IT. IT was seen as a cost center, as a services sector, not directly contributing to the bottom line. So the budgeting and so on would take a hit because of that. But in reality, without IT, you cannot run a bank. In fact, some have even suggested that a bank is a technology business with a little reconciliation thrown in at the end. But even reconciliation now is based on technology. So in that sense, the name financial services I think would limit us. In fact, I had proposed financial markets and infrastructure but Karen brought up the point that we should just be called finance special interest group because it encompasses short-term and long-term capital markets, market making, cost study, all the other stuff that goes along with it, including payments. And we have had several presentations on CBDCs and such things. And we are supposed to give a response to the Fed on CBDCs but unfortunately we could not get it together to do that in a factured way because for a group now, we have also divided between Asia Pacific group and Europe. So the meetings are at different times. So the US EMEA group only meets once in four weeks and the other, the APAC group meets once in four weeks on a staggered two weeks schedule. So that's one more thing that has happened and you know that the Asia Pacific region is very active on this, not only DeFi, but well, Terra is based in Singapore for example. So, you know, there's a lot of activity in the East and so there, you know, we are kind of split into two sections at this moment but we all collaborate on the Wiki, the projects that we have, the labs that we've started. Again, another lab that we started is Neferti which is meant to be a tooling infrastructure for NFTs but even that, you know, we are having some trouble getting really off the ground because again, people have real jobs and you know, to do open source work is thankless. Now to come to, coming back to TTF that you mentioned, we actually developed ETALR, a CBDC based on TTF and I'm happy to report that TTF is still alive and well inside the Global Blockchain Business Council. They are the ones hosting it now. Microsoft is of course still prominent but other people are coming in there. So the TTF could, because it's a generic framework, could still encompass your, what do you call it, DeFi taxonomy. If you want it because it can definitely encompass, definitely encompass NFTs. I don't know whether it can encompass, I think it can because I've looked at the sort of the building blocks and they are open to it. It's an open protocol. You can contribute and they're still working on, you know, they're focusing now on two other subjects, which is one is the climate change, carbon, you know, or that kind of tokens and the other one is the net capital markets, which is basically bonds and bonds have a great similarity to some of the DeFi protocols, especially with respect to the to the yield and so on. But a yield of 20% of course is sort of unsustainable unless inflation itself is 20, 50%. So anyway, so that's and Alfonso just posted that learning tokens is working with GBBC and DTF. That's all I have for everything, even though I had promised that I'll do something on the response to the Fed. I am involved with the open CBDC project and sending them some proposals, but that's in my private capacity and also the response that I'll be providing to the Fed paper will also be in a private capacity because we were not able to get the thing together. And I encourage all of you to do it because but the last date is Friday, but these are questions that we have been tussling or having discussions on in this group for a while. Many of the questions, there are 22 questions. You can only respond to just one or two. You don't need to respond 22. So with that, I want to say that, you know, I have said my piece, if Mike has a comment or two, it would be helpful to listen to him. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to start with some group. I think maybe, you know, a monthly at first could be beneficial. And maybe we have it as like a sub, like, you know, within capital markets as it's labeled now. It's just like another tab you click into and we can go into that wookie page and be able to start meeting cadences and I'll have to just connect with Tomas or to talk about logistics within Hyperledger when we would schedule a meeting. I think at first maybe having it based in America's EMEI friendly hours will be beneficial. Potentially moving to night times where we get more of an APAC crowd could be of benefit too. But yeah, I'm happy to help create those administrative steps and I'll look to join this biweekly group as much as possible. And for Marvin as well, we can coordinate to get more of an APAC crowd. I think it's a great time where I can do a very similar presentation to the mortgage subgroup and seeing where there are similarities. I will say most of the interest I get professionally and personally is how to get mortgage backed securities into a crypto native pool. So very, a lot of interesting things. We could always collaborate on as a group. Yeah, mortgages are a very interesting thing as well. Again, I worked on mortgages for maybe 10 years. So I built systems in traditional investment banks, but mostly for risk management and also for trading risk. In fact, real time risk, which is a tougher thing for mortgages than for anything else. But to come back to mortgages, they have a characteristic at the bottom layer of NFTs because each house is a unique thing. And the mortgage that attaches to that house is particularly unique. And then pooling those NFTs and then building a bond on top of that based on the underlying cash flows. So the underlying cash flows, this is the key. Underline cash flows in real-world assets can be easily sort of identified. But in DeFi or in some other areas, it's difficult to identify the cash flows, except for the fact that some people are paying huge yields, which is of course a cash flow, but how stable is that cash flow? What underpins that cash flow? Why is somebody paying you 20%? Is it because they're using the new money to pay off that 20%? In which case it's called a Ponzi scheme. It's a very familiar thing to all of us. But if it's not, if there are some other ways of making money like staking on Ethereum, staking on something else, but how stable is that payment? These are all matters that really, in the end, determine the surety and the stability and whether you're going to have big problems if you invest in something like Luna. I'm not going to tattoo Luna on my arm or any other DeFi protocol unless I completely understand it. I heard that Mike Novogratz probably went and got that erased. I don't know. I mean, it'll be like tattooing the name of your girlfriend and then breaking up. It's a tough thing to have to forget something that's etched into your skin. So if you have money, like a lot of people have lots of money, then, you know, 5%, 10% loss is not a big deal. But if you're putting all your eggs in Luna, then you're probably on the Luna tick fringe. Anyway, enough Luna jokes for today, but that's the joke of the day of the week, I guess. Our aim should be not to have these jokes on an ongoing basis going forward, especially with large amounts of money. Another thing that Mike would be interesting would be like look at stablecoins, for example. How much is the TBL in each type of stablecoin? People bring up, you know, oh, fiat-based stablecoins, then we have commodity-based stablecoins. We have algorithm-based stablecoins. Some of these are theoretical constructs, in my opinion. Of course, something like Luna was 8th largest or something. But even then like USDT is much bigger than anything else. And now they're bleeding money and people are going into USDC because there seem to be more transparency in the collateral. Yeah, USDT and Tether just morphs any other stablecoin out there today. USDC is gaining traction and they do have a little more transparency. They do have a little more transparency in their network. But yeah, no, I think it's a very valuable thing to dig into. Well, I mean, I had actually written an article about USDC and criticizing that they are only providing you a monthly audit. Whereas month-by-month growth is like 10, 20% sometimes. And what is the point that was the audit one month ago and that too, that is released only 15 days from the end of the month. So it's really a month and a half. And so, you know, we are so technology-based. Why can't you have at least go look towards real-time auditing or real-time monitoring instead of additional audit company coming up with, you know, numbers once a month. And obviously the USDT, we don't know, the only thing we know is the secret sauce. The secret sauce is that you've invested in some high-yielding product. Again, if the high-yielding product price falls, then it's worth less than what you bought it at. So in the end, I mean, stablecoins, we have to look at, because stablecoins are the basis of defy itself because if you think about it, without that rail, that digital rail coming in, we wouldn't have all these interesting things. But it's definitely linked directly to that. Anyway, sorry to ramble on, but I think it's a valuable experience to be available, experience to listen to you and to participate in this group. And Eugenio is going to volunteer. I heard as the vice chair of this group and I welcome Eugenio. He's still interested. Most of it is just administrative work, but we need those two to get the group sort of set up and going forward. So Mike, I look forward. And that's it. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks. Bye. Thank you. Thank you, Mike. Thank you. We've been for the kind of work. All right. Thank you guys. Bye.