 I will call this meeting of the Committee of the Whole to order. Thanks for being with us tonight. We've got a lot of great things to talk about. We will start with, I'd like to ask President Hanna to lead us in a moment of silence for Lloyd Turner. If you all stand for a minute. Please join me in a moment of silence for Lloyd Turner who passed away Tuesday, March 17th. Lloyd was the former Director of Public Works for the City of Sheboygan from 1997 into 2002. Lloyd was currently serving as a member of the Sheboygan Police and Fire Commission. Our sympathies go out to Mrs. Turner and the family. Thank you. Thank you. Please be seated. Now President Hanna, if you can let the roll call. Warren. Here. Bow. Here. Decker. Here. Gisha. Here. Hanna's here. Heidemann. Here. Kittleson's excused. Clarence. Here. Meyer. Montmore. Here. Rainflash. Ryan. Here. Sark. Here. Vanderwills excused for Hasslet. Here. 12 present. Two excused. And two absent. Quorum is present. We'll rise for the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, for liberty and justice for all. Under Housekeeping. Alderman Bourne. We need the approval minutes. Oh. As I was. I would entertain a motion to approve the minutes of the meeting of January 29th. Moved and seconded. Any discussion about the minutes? All right. All in favor of adopting and approving the minutes? Say aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. On to Housekeeping. Alderman Bourne. The first thing on the agenda, number one, is RO number 3360809 by the city clerk, January 5th, 2009, submitting a communication from Alderperson Bourne, along with an article from the general sentinel. An article entitled limiting property tax will be no easy feat. Motion to file. Any discussion? Alderman Bourne. Under discussion, the reason I brought this first of all to the finance committee and now here tonight was way back in January. We were getting indications that we were going to have a very difficult budget situation for 2010 and that's really all I want to say. The difficulties have just gotten worse and we're going to be covering that tonight. Any other discussion? All in favor of the motion file? Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Alderperson Bourne. The next two documents, RC number 3360809 and RC number 3370809 are actually the same from two different committees. Your committees to whom was referred, RO number 2640809, by the city clerk submitting a communication from Alderperson Bourne, along with an article from the walkie general sentinel, water pollution standards, a struggle recommends that the report of officer be referred to the committee of the whole. Make a motion to file both documents. I'll take them together. Any discussion? Alderman Bourne. Just a couple of moments. We talked about this a little bit in the public works committee. Just a couple of things that I wanted to mention. This article had to do with water pollution standards set by the DNR and the culprit is the runoff pollutants such as dirt, oil and bacteria that wash off streets and flows into local water bodies. The DNR is targeting runoff as measured by total suspended solids. Regulations approved in 2002 call for a reduction of 20% in total suspended solids this year and 40% by 2013. To meet this 40% standard, cities will have to boost street sweeping and remove dirt and other material from the roadways. In discussions at the public works department, in order to be in total compliance with these DNR regulations by 2013 and if the DNR goes ahead and enforces these to the letter of the law, we could, according to Mr. Bittner and Mr. Bebel, the city of Sheboygan could be faced with 5 to 7 million dollars in cost to be in compliance by 2013, which means we would have to bond 2.3 million dollars a year in 2010, 2011 and 2012. The reason I brought this forward and it's even more important now, this is another thing that Mr. Hansen and the finance committee and the older persons are going to have to keep on the radar screen because the financial situation that we're already in on top of possibly having to borrow 2.3 million dollars for an unfunded mandate from the DNR puts us potentially even in a more tenuous position. So if Mr. Hansen does not already have this on the radar screen, which I'm sure he does, it's another thing we have to be worried about. Thank you. Any other discussion on this item? All in favor of the motion to file? Aye. Opposed? Motion to file carries. President Hanna, you have a couple under deer abatement. Yes. Item Roman numeral 4 and Roman numeral 6, RC 410, 08 and 09, and council item 2452, I'd make a motion to refer to the committee of the whole of the new common council. Second. Any discussion? We have a motion to second. Any discussion on the motion to hold over to the next committee of the whole? This continues to be an item of interest to a great number of citizens. So I think we want to try to get this on the agenda of the committee of the whole as soon as possible in the new council year. Okay. Any other discussion on this? Motion to hold? Refer. Refer. Okay. All in favor of the motion? Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. And finally, I'd entertain a motion on RC 440, 0809. Motion to file. A motion and second under discussion. All in decor. Give me one second. There you go. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I personally like to hold this or refer to the next committee of the whole meeting as well. I think in all fairness to the taxpayers, I would like to do a breakdown in some numbers. And look into it a little more thoroughly before we decide anything. Thank you. Any other thoughts on right now the current motion is to file? Is that an amendment to that motion? All in decor. Okay. Then we have a motion to amend that from a file to a whole. You can't amend that. We'd have to vote on the first one. Okay. So I'd like to weigh in. I'd support Jeremy's motion. I would prefer that this be referred to the committee of the whole of the new council. Okay. Any other discussion? On the motion to file. All in favor. Opposed? No. All right. Motion does not carry. I'd entertain a different motion. I'd like to make a motion and refer to the next committee of the whole meeting. Motion to hold to the next committee of the whole and seconded by President Hanna. Any discussion? All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. And that we've moved already. All right. So now under item six I'd like to frame this presentation up for us tonight. At the last finance committee meeting there was a lot of scrambling going around as we prepared for the meeting and sort of a realization that the financials were not as we anticipated. The good news about this and it's a no small testament to the new director of finance Hanson and the chairman of the finance committee is that normally we probably wouldn't be looking at this stuff until this fall when we start thinking of 2010. Through the foresight of those two gentlemen and eventually the finance committee they're looking instead of just looking in the headlights they turned the bright lights on and they're looking farther down the road and we saw a great big brick wall in front of our financial sports car moving down the highway. So what we'd like to do tonight this is an effort at transparency with the Sheboygan taxpayers. We know some things that we've learned earlier than we normally would and we can't move forward without sharing that with the Sheboygan taxpayers. So with that I'd like to open the floor up to who's kicking it off. Chairman Gisha of the finance committee please. There you go. I was warned by everybody to try to be loud so anybody please speak up. Before we get started tonight I wanted to remind those at home or those who are here and then eventually end up at home that the information being presented tonight by our finance director Terry Hansen will be available and currently is available on our city website. You don't have to kind of dig through to find finance it's right in the front page and that's at www.ci.sheboygan.wi.us. That is again in adding on to what Alderperson Bauch said an effort at transparency and getting out all the information to as many people as we can and that's why we're here tonight. As it was discussed a lot of times information like this doesn't happen to make its way out historically until the end of the year during budget time and this affects every one of us. The information we have tonight or what we're seeing will affect every department head every department and most importantly the people we serve in the city and we need your help and that should be the theme of our straight talk tonight. Why is this different than other years? It's different in a lot of ways that you're going to see detailed tonight. It's different because we have different mandates that are put on us by the state. We have different fees that are now being charged to the city. We have increases in health insurance. We have, we have, we have and those again will be detailed by director Hansen tonight. I encourage everybody to look very carefully at that and print it out at home if they can. My remarks will be brief but I did want to bring up the fact that as a council we've done some pretty amazing things over the last two to four years. We've restructured debt. We've dealt with an unfunded multimillion dollar unfunded state pension liability. That saved the taxpayers millions of dollars in potential interest expense, amortization expense if you would. We've reorganized departments which and left several positions unfilled to try to address this in anticipation of this ball rolling our way over the last several years. This council and previous councils have exercised some I think very straightforward fiscal discipline and have taken on the tough tasks and we've done some health insurance revamp and those were big issues that had a lot of zeros at the end of it that this council addressed and has helped us to this point. However things now are a little different and they're different in our shared revenues are being decreased. Our Wisconsin retirement fund is hitting us with mandated additional expenses. We're in the middle this year we will be involved with contract negotiations with our labor partners. We have levy limitations. Director Hanson will explain if we have certain levy caps. Levy is all the money that we're able to tax the citizens of Sheboygan. There's certain things where if we keep the levy at certain levels we get extra money from the state. It's a big balancing act that a finance director goes through and I think the citizens and as well as some of us in the council need to understand how that works and how one thing often affects another. Our increased debt exposure we talked about that at Monday's council resolution on the floor here this evening it was referred to this committee regarding lowering potential $5 million debt expenditure and we have general inflationary costs. That's the overview of where we're at today. The details become shocking and I think the finance committee felt sufficiently shocked at what this all means to us and Terry will detail it to you. I'm not a good power point guy. I tend to try to equate things as to how you live your life. It's much different than how you do run your households. If the money you have coming in is stagnant like our tax base is we don't have a growing tax base but your expenses keep going up eventually something's got to give and I believe 2010 is that give and we are at that point. There's two points I'd like people to keep in mind during this presentation from Terry regarding dollars. Point number one there's a significant difference between one time expenses and annual recurring expenses. Our issues are recurring expenses things that happen every year every year every year enroll and become more expensive. Our issues aren't painting the lobby of city hall with a couple of buckets of paint or buying a vehicle or one time write out the check stuff. It's the stuff that has trailing expenses as we like to talk in the finance committee that sometimes you see and sometimes you don't see that add up to your tax bill. The other point that I think will become clear through this is that there's a significant difference between delaying expenses and eliminating expenses. Terry will show you graphically where your money goes, where your tax dollar goes and some of those issues are issues that if we keep growing segments of our tax liability what we pay for is a city in certain services and personnel etc. We're delaying an inevitable we can't have certain areas grow because it eats up the rest if 95% of our money goes to pay and benefits and 15% go to everything else that everything else is bonding for streets that everything else is bonding to put sidewalks in, mini storm sewers. The stuff we discussed Monday night becomes difficult or impossible to do. Something I'd like to be clear in our straightforward talk and communication is we can't solve this. We have a terrific finance committee. Alderperson Jean Clayunas, Alderperson Marilyn Montmayord, Alderperson Born, Bauk and I'll toss myself in but I learn a lot from those people. They've been on top of this, previous finance committees have been top of this and we have the help now of a wonderful finance director as well. But your finance committee can't fix this. Your council can't fix this. Your department heads can't fix this. This is going to be the beginning of communication throughout the city with our citizens, with our labor partners, with our other non-represented employees with the council, with the finance committee. Your government can't solve this. We need the input and feedback and that's what our attempt is tonight is to just start to lay out for everybody here's our situation. Now let's all start working together to find out a solution. We'll know what the reality is by what you're going to see here tonight. How do we change this reality? And the reality and fairly shocking scenario is even if all city employees took a zero percent pay increase for three years even if we raised the taxes to the expected maximum of three percent which is what's proposed in the governor's budget even if we did all that we would still be hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars in the whole beginning in 2009 or 2010. This isn't anybody's fault. Your city workers are wonderful people, wonderful dedicated people you have wonderful dedicated leaders here in this room. This is not, this isn't anybody's fault this is everybody's opportunity and I think that is our hope this evening is that we come together pull together. We have now the, we're lucky to have the direction of a marvelous human resources director in Angela Payne. She's going to be key to this. All department heads are going to be key to this. Everybody's free to open up and have at it. Finance committee is wide open for this stuff. So please this is about everybody. It's not about me or Terry or our committee or this council. It is about everybody and we welcome you to come to the table to help us solve these recurring expenses. To help us deal with health care, to help us deal with things. Frankly if you let politicians deal with it gets ugly. But if we all deal with it together maybe we can solve it in a way that everyone benefits and by everyone I mean the citizens we're all here to represent and care about and I know we all do. So that's the overview director Hanson he gets to do the PowerPoint stuff will give you a presentation on some numbers. Often numbers are difficult to follow in these situations please bear with us. They're important and then older person Hannah council president Hannah has a couple of words. So thanks everybody for participating and please let this be the beginning of participation and not just in tonight after this meeting. Thank you. Well to start off when I was preparing this I was trying to find the best way to present this and thought of different charts different graphs but I think the best way is just to start off where we're at and what we're going to see and here you can see our 2009 budget we're budgeted for million dollars in expenditures for 2009 really that would be good. Okay and then looking at the Wisconsin retirement fund the state passed some statutes requiring that whenever there is a loss those losses need to be recaptured over a five-year period through incremental increases in the participation rate of the employees and of the employer. In our case a majority of the contracts have good coverage where the city pays a majority or all of the employees contribution up to a certain percentage and depending on how those rates get passed to us we'll be looking at about $195,000 increase in Wisconsin retirement contributions for employees retirement package and that is just year one it'll compound over five years and we'll show that a little bit later of $195,000 is as Alderman Gisha highlighted before if everybody took a zero percent increase all salaries frozen steps and across-the-board increases were zero we'd still be looking at $195,000 increase in expenditures. Next is tipping fees for garbage services the state increased some of their fees and that'll relate to about $100,000 and increased costs to the city for disposing of waste so we'll be looking at that expense as well. Now we're looking at some of the estimated traditionally in the past the across-the-board increases were around 3% and what the number I factored in here is if just took a figurative 3% but that doesn't include step increases that are built into contracts so with the step increases in the across-the-board you could see up to a 5% or even more depending on where all the employees are at but at just a 3% we're looking at around $7,000 potential cost in additional pay then if we compound the Wisconsin retirement and FICA taxes on top of that we'll be looking at another $118,000 in expenditures so that 3% increase in contracts averaged out would end up resulting in about $725,000 in additional costs then we move on down to insurance. Insurance last year we took about a 16% increase in insurance premiums this year and this is a very conservative estimate which is probably too conservative this is only a 5% increase so if we face a 10% we can double that $322,000 amount to $644,000 so this is kind of a best-case scenario for the $322,000 we'll see how things level out after this 2008 clean period is but right now I would anticipate it be at least $322,000 additional insurance costs that we'll be facing next year. Other operating expenditures just factoring a 3% inflationary cost on that would result in $164,000 in additional costs with that that brings our total anticipated expenditures at this point this isn't anything else that's coming on down the road this is just what's identified here and this is just general fund costs this doesn't include the debt service that we're dealing with as well but we're looking at $37.7 million for our anticipated expenditures the bad part about that is even if we had enough revenue to fund this the state has an expenditure restraint program that caps the amount that your expenditures can increase from one year to the next it's anticipated that it'll be about 3% of your previous year's expenditures if that is the case if the 3% holds true we're looking at our expenditures being capped at $37.3 million which means we have to cut $420,000 off the top to keep our expenditure restraint aid and that amount of aid is about $1.1 million so if we go over that expenditure restraint amount we lose $1.1 million in funding so then that affects you on the revenue side a lot of what Alderman said everything together you think you solve a problem in one it can lead to an issue in another so even if we could afford all of those expenditures we'd have to reduce our expenditures in order to keep that aid then looking on the revenue side in 2009 we balanced the budget so we're looking at $36.2 million in revenues for general fund due to the elimination of the stormwater fee and throughout the money that was remaining in there for the last operational cost that got shifted to the general fund we have $615,000 that will be eliminated from the general fund next year as far as revenues coming in so we'll have that coming out of the revenues next our state aid reduction which is tentative it's a very preliminary number this may change is slated at $41,000 which isn't much but we have to keep that on a radar to make sure that it doesn't change our mind and it becomes a million dollars next on the levy limit this is an estimate of 3% on the general fund levy that if we raise the taxes the max that the state would allow us we could only generate an additional $435,000 in taxes so once we add all that together we have $36 million in revenues that we're looking at and from the previous slide $37.7 million in anticipated expenditures that leaves us at a deficit right now of approximately $1.7 million this early in the game so as things continue to trickle in and this number could grow as well looking at how our expenditures break out in the general fund trying to figure out the best way to classify them as far as the type of expenditures we have salaries and benefits is 85% and other operating expenditures at 15% I think preliminary last year at one time the finance department said it was around 90% and 10% but we calculated this a little more looked at it very closely and it is 85% and 15% without a doubt so that is where we're at right now and this is not just one-year issue as Alderman Gisha highlighted just to look at the Wisconsin retirement fund increases over the next five years in the catch up period that the state's preliminary rates came out at if we had a 3% increase in salaries per year this is what happens to our Wisconsin retirement contributions it starts out in 2009 of about $2.7 million and then 2010 it will be over $3 million and then in 2014 we'll be approaching the $5 million mark so ultimately our Wisconsin retirement just the new additional percentages that will be required by states the statute will be an additional $1.5-$1.6 million annually at the end of 2014 so 2015 if the rate stabilized we'll still have that $1.6 million in additional costs that we'll be having to cover with that I don't want to bore everybody too much with the financial information there's a lot that I think the finance committee will be presenting to the council and if there's more forums like this we can present in greater detail at that time but this gives us kind of a brief snapshot of what everybody's looking at and with that I'd like to turn it over to Alderman Hanna again I want to thank everybody at home for watching tonight and I want to thank everybody that's here in the audience this is a very, very important issue and it's excellent we've got this kind of participation as we've heard tonight these are not one-time issues the way the cards have been dealt with us these challenges are going to continue we need to come together as a community for a long-term solution and it's important at this stage early in the year that we understand the situation there's going to be very, very tough decisions these are going to have impacts not on just the city departments not just on the citizens but the business community at large and these are not challenges that are just shabuagans there are cities all across Wisconsin that are going through the same challenges and I would hazard a guess all across the country going through these challenges I'd like to remind us this is an opportunity for us to work together as Alderman Gisher pointed out our labor partners our department heads the non-representative employees and the citizens we need to come together this is not the time to focus on blame this is the time to work as a team with realistic suggestions hammer them out it's early enough in the year that we've got an opportunity we've got a new administration that will be coming in we're going to have to hit the ground running on these issues and with that I'd like to close and again thank you all for coming I think there will be some questions from the committee members Thank you President Hannon before we open it up to the older persons I'd like to be clear it's not about blame that's not what we're talking about tonight but it is about clarity and there's some facts up there tonight that make it clear that the way we are structured the way our inflows and our outflows are structured it's our neighbor's money it's not our money it's not the council's money it's not the mayor's money it's your neighbor's money and as we figure out how to get through this we have to harder to raise people's taxes if we had to go knock on people's doors and say you know what Ed I'm your alderman and we're raising your taxes and your share is 240 bucks can I have it please if we had to do that be a whole lot harder to get people to raise taxes because there'd be face to face accountability and there hasn't been a whole lot of face to face accountability in years past we keep sending people to Madison that think it's okay to raise our taxes bring in these different arbitration mediation arbitration laws a couple of decades, a handful of decades we have built a system that has got us to the place where we are today and that's not casting aspersions that's saying look, the pie graph is what it is 85% of every dollar we spend 85 cents of every dollar we take from our neighbors goes to fund salaries benefits and fika taxes and so when the slice of the pie that's available for discretionary things is only 15% that makes it hard to do the things like paving Indiana and giving relief to our neighbors on Indiana that need some help and things of that nature so I just want to be really clear that we're talking about our neighbors money and it'd be an awful lot harder we'd feel an awful lot worse about this if we actually had to go stick our hands out like we probably should have to and say fork it over, it's what we need so with that I'll open it up, who'd like to speak first Alderman Ryan thank you Jim and Boak this is not a pretty picture we have here it's a pretty bleak situation but it's also an opportunity for us now at this time it's basically a forced opportunity for us to solve our financial problems it's a time that everybody will have to come together everybody will have to work together it's basically an opportunity to get our city running as efficiently as possible and we'll be forced into this into this situation we're not like the federal government we can't print money we have to take our budget and we have to make it work it's a situation where it'll be it'll be painful for a couple of years we're still we have there a $400,000 tax levy increase for the general fund but we're still in the upper 16th percentile in the state and property taxes right now so do we want to again raise taxes and property taxes another 3% I think we tighten the belt we figure out how to work through this situation for a couple of years until we can once again start building our tax base to tell you the truth we're looking at $1.7 million in an anticipated deficit in my opinion this is more like $2.1 to $2.2 million that we're looking at right now because I don't believe that raising taxes is a good option in this situation I think that we need to look at everything that we can in the city we need to basically do an efficiency study of how we operate in the city operating more efficiently technology whatever it takes we need to cut back and we need to do it together we don't want to see people laid off I do believe that if we freeze wages I think that's important we get a wage freeze excuse me we rework our health insurance plan we have one of the most generous health insurance plans on the planet I guarantee you both public and private sector I know we have some wiggle room in that health insurance plan to save some money we need to do that we need to look at retirement in the city if we have people of retirement age that are eligible for retirement we need to look at that we need to look at whatever we can to become more efficient without raising taxes in the city I honestly do believe that if we were at the 50 percent percentile in the city on property taxes that would be one thing or even 70 but when we're up to the highest 16th percentile I don't think it's an option I think we need to tighten the belt we need to do it together we need to figure out the solution together and thank you thank you all of them all of them are hassle thank you Mr. Chair question for Terry if I may just on some of the numbers you put out there Terry I was looking the salaries you had estimated if I heard you right a 3 percent increase could that we've got a number of new fire and police personnel come on here in the last 18 months or so during the aggressive step program that's in place there couldn't that number easily be double so we could be looking at 1.2 million we've got I think that 600,000 is very conservative from what I've seen in past numbers that could easily be double so that's very interesting also have there been any preliminary discussions on insurance within our insurance provider is there a chance that we could actually flip that around and create a positive there through a savings is that in the realm of possibilities do you want to come up Terry yes we have been talking with Eric Serrano and Humana and always looking at ways that we can try to improve and reduce the cost of the programs when it comes to specific benefits that may be negotiated into the contract you're kind of bound by that you do have some room to do things however you don't have free rein to do whatever you want to try to save the cost you do have to still follow the parameters that are set forth in the union contracts that's fine I guess then the million dollar question is from your vantage point maybe it's too early in the year maybe this is the question we're looking for tonight but do you have some ideas where the biggest opportunities may lie here in the next eight months as to how we bridge that gap that's more likely two and a half million dollars is there any obvious areas I think all the low hanging fruit as far as typical stuff that governments do to balance the budgets has already been picked we will there are some ideas some progressive thoughts as far as different things that we could do but I think those should be vetted probably through the committee format before it gets introduced they're not they're raw ideas they haven't been vetted through a full discussion with multiple people so thanks thank you Teri and I'll just reiterate what Teri and Ullerman Gisch has said about the low hanging fruit this current mayor and the current and past couple of councils they haven't just picked the low hanging fruit they've gone out and got some really tall ladders and picked some of that fruit too one of the questions that a citizen might ask is hey you guys have always pulled this out in the past you know you guys every fall you tell us how bad it's going to be and all of a sudden you guys manage to pull it out I'd ask Ullerman Gisch answer that question again reiterate what's different this year you guys always pull a rabbit out of the hat what's different Ullerman Gisch you want that one thank you Ullerman Bach it's different well Teri's graph previously showing the contributions of the WRF by itself alone would have caused red flags we never had that before that significant trend up that you all saw that alone would have left me screaming into my pillow in the middle of the night thinking about but adding that to the rest of these new expenses and frankly just at some point you get to a tipping point where there's not enough money left over we should have a high percentage of salary and benefits we're a service industry we're going to have that but it gets to the point where there isn't enough enough nickels left to do the things our citizens expect us to do like fix put new roads in or sewer projects and things like that and so that bubble just kept pushing along it's kind of like a baby boom bubble a lot of us in this room and committees have been talking about this coming for years but the economy with that new chart of Teri showing Wisconsin Retirement Fund looking to replenish themselves on the backs of local taxpayers thank you just thank you accelerated what was going to happen anyway maybe this moved us a year or two earlier then if we didn't have some of those additional surprises but we were going to be here we were going to be here I had neighbors calling me about stuff we talked about on Monday night with the sewer projects I think it's homes are getting flooded we can't afford a bond for the money to do it because our percentages are off and our taxes are already high enough and because of what Teri explained with those expenditure caps even if we decided to go way up we lose it on the front end it's a box it's a box and I think the finance committee saw that and we thank you for giving us the opportunity Teri could have done 50 more slides and really gone into detail but I think it gave a good idea of a snapshot of the moment and we're asking for help okay thank you Jim I think you are next Vice President thank you Mr. Chairman I just want to go forward I just want to mention and just reiterate a little bit what Alderman Gish has said I think we've got a couple of excellent new department heads to help us through this first of all Teri Hanson our finance director whereas some people refer to him as the head bean counter I think the city's beans are in good hands I think Teri is going to be just an excellent asset to help us through this and also our new human resources director Angela Payne it's my understanding that Angela has hit the ground running and I think her expertise in labor relations are going to be a huge asset for people on both sides of the table as we go forward with these labor contracts so Angela keep up the good work and I think the labor negotiations are in good hands on both sides of the table then I do have a question that I got from a constituent before I left and I think I did give him the right answer but I want to give Teri asked Teri Don from 10th and Florida called me before I left home tonight and said what if we told the state to go fly a kite we're not giving them anymore Wisconsin retirement money I think I gave him the right answer but Teri would you just want to tell Don on 10th and Florida what would happen if we told him to keep it quite simple I don't think that's an option I think they would find ways to hit us with penalties and interest assessments that would make it very desirable to pay that versus pay the consequence so that is not an option in what I know of it so but we need that kind of creativity right Jeremy I think you were next but I may no okay all the person thank you chairperson are there any TID districts coming online for taxes in 2010 nothing huh so there's no investment coming back to us 12 I do think there are some things that we have to bring back user ideas people who are using city services that we have to somehow have them pay more for those services especially because they use them more than someone else but we may have to get in some new techniques or procedures for paying for the services we take for granted and that are really very generous to the citizens but maybe have to be paid for more directly thank you I got a call from one of my constituents currently that is planning on expanding his business is that the city in some respect has to have a good bonding rate how's this scenario going into effective bonding with the city the holding back on the debt is probably a good idea in trying to hold up the bond rating maintaining a healthy general fund balance is also key in that as well the other thing that I'm sure there will be even more scrutiny from the bond rating agencies now so you just have to make sure that things are good we don't want to be utilizing fund balance to pay for reoccurring expenses we want to make sure that we just apply sound financial guidance through this time to make sure that the bonding rating agencies know that the council and the community understand the situation that everybody is in right now and that we are taking measures to take care of the financial health of the community so holding the line on some debt is probably not a bad idea in this time and then also making sure that we do not overspend or create reoccurring expenditures that we cannot continue in the future thank you well I'm going to get you Terry maybe we're starting kind of the bonding maybe you can explain to people that that's kind of an ongoing thing or that you're on top of that particular feature with our bond council yes we work closely with the bond council and typically what happens as far as the rating and making sure everything goes well we get interviewed by a couple of bonding rating agencies and basically they put us through the ringer, talked to the finance director, deputy finance director and then the bond council and we discuss everything that's happening within the community and it's not just a financial number item too they'll look at what's happening within the community, looking at the demographics looking at the unemployment rate which is not a good thing that came out in the news this last week but they look at the overall picture so even if we do things financially well they do look at the overall health of the community and make sure that that is sound as well too so that the taxes that are being assessed are affordable for the people within the community Alderman Heidemann your next thank you chairman when I came into office one of the first questions was asked when I campaigned they said we had this vehicle maintenance fund that had gotten this enormous eight million dollars I'm kind of wondering where that fund is now or if any of that money that's in that fund can be transferred to help do some bonding to get those sewer projects and things taken care of excellent question Alderman Guesha Terry can back me up on this if he wishes I've had calls people saying the eight million dollars is gone you spent it all we have not technically all eight million dollars are still there we borrowed against about 50% of it but that borrowing comes with an IOU and those payments are being made actually they were started this year in this budget period by department anything that was ever any dime taken out of there is going back in with interest I might add so the eight million dollars is there as far as spending out of that eight million dollars for sewer project or things like that how that would affect our bond rating if that's part of our general our general fund balance will be key and Terry might be able to answer that better but for those who call and say oh you spent the eight million dollars well we didn't it's there Alderman Guesha if you'd continue on that when we say things like the money's there but it's not that gets confusing by that where did some of it go and why is it being paid back sure the massive the largest chunk of it four million I believe dollars went to pay previous pension liabilities from our workers that we were behind on that we're going to cost tens of millions of dollars with interest we kept this current borrowing program with the state so it went to salary and benefits frankly so and it went and it's being paid back proportionally by department so that's the vast majority of it has went back to the state of Wisconsin to pay off a debt thank you I understand I supported that I wanted that money transferred to pay that debt down but that still doesn't give me an answer as to where that fund is right now. Is it at four million three million and what would what is okay and what wouldn't be okay what would be smart and not smart as far as that fund I believe I don't have the most accurate numbers from all yet we're still working on finalizing everything there as far as transfers and interest income but I believe it is around the three million mark balance one thing with that the amount that was borrowed for the unfunded pension was to be paid back after we're done paying the bonds that were issued by the state and from the state and that just to clarify that we weren't really behind on payments somebody asked the question about that earlier we weren't paying it's not that we weren't paying a bill we were paying a bill but then they calculated and said there's not enough coming in to fund what's coming going out so we need to you have this unfunded pension liability it's not that we didn't pay the bills so somebody asked that question of me yesterday so I just wanted to make sure that we clear up that notion we do pay the bills on time and second of all if we use that for other things that fund was set up originally set up based on a rate that captured the depreciation of a piece of equipment and that depreciation rate was charged back to the fund the departments that use that piece of equipment the problem was it was a very good equation set up the problem was it wasn't executed as it was planned instead of saying that a piece of equipment hit the 15 year mark we should replace it we held on to it so then that fund balance grew and then we continued to charge that higher rate so then that increased the amount of money that went into it so right now I would have to talk to Bill Bittner the public works director to see where we're at as far as the equipment and what shape it is in in order to say that money should be used to replace equipment shortly or if the equipment is in good shape then that money might become available or viable but the main thing is we're going to be reviewing that equation this year making sure that we have a good calculation that we can execute and make sure we stick to the plan so the same thing does not happen again where we get a larger balance that is just sitting there idle thank you Alderman born please thank you another constituent that I talked to last night was calling for her mother and she lives down in the area where the sewer project is going to be done down east of south down east east of south high school on the Washington and south 10th area and her question was is any of the federal stimulus money that's going to be coming down from Washington DC going to be able to be used for for stormwater projects and that type of thing and I told her my answer was I didn't think full details of the federal stimulus program has reached the local limits of the level the local level so I'm asking Terry if he's got any further update Paul it enters if there's any update on the availability of federal stimulus money to possibly help with some of these projects that we had planned that it looks like we're not going to be able to go ahead with Paul that's in the audience or Terry thank you I think what you know your response back to your constituent was correct we don't know at this point what we do know is that some of the funding that's coming into the state there are categories and anticipated amounts that will be coming from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act to the state of Wisconsin it looks like those dollars are being channeled into existing programs we know that WISDOT had a Phase 1 application those were two different types of funding was actually three we qualified for two enhancements and STP Urban we submitted six projects they weren't funded for this phase two we will be submitting those projects again along with other projects that qualify it doesn't look as if flood mitigation qualifies for those programs it doesn't mean though that there won't be other programs that may come up that they would qualify and we have been watching that as closely as what we can in cooperation with the departments and in particular the finance department and maybe what I could mention is that the fifth in New York project that's going forward we will be submitting an application for funding but it's part loan and part grant and we don't know that we'll receive it or not even though the project will be underway the DNR has told us to submit it Bill was your question for Paula okay okay Alderman Wongerman your next thank you speaking of phone calls from constituents as Allerman born has had I'm sure my partner Allerman Decker has been getting phone calls through and of course the problem is Indiana Avenue is there any realistic hope that these people can look forward to any kind of relief there at all is there anything that we can offer them some kind of a some of this cost can be because people there are in trouble and they're very very concerned they're very worried and I had a lady crying on the telephone the other day and I really don't know what to tell her what shall I tell these people I'll invite other more learned people to get up and offer a longer answer but we can remind the citizens that the council and the finance committee just Monday night voted to lower the amount of interest we charge when people finance it through the city now there's only kind of a handling charge a one and a half percent handling charge on that down from I think oh probably four percentage points it was from seven down to a point and a half over which is probably a three and a half or four percent cut so the council has done what it can by lowering the level at which will loan money to citizens who need that kind of help that's a baby step and now Terry or Paula if you have other thoughts on it I'm not going to put you on the spot but if you have some thoughts I'll invite you up so all of the citizens especially those in Indiana that's why creativity is needed I got a call after yesterday's press went out I got a call from a constituent that mentioned there's a quote in yesterday's press from Sam Garen that says that represent city unions the concessions would be made based on what actually happens in comparable communities and blame the financial crunch on the city's past efforts to cut taxes if they hadn't cut taxes if we hadn't taken less of our neighbors money in the past they wouldn't have as many financial issues as they're having today I'd like to ask either the chair of finance or Terry Hanson to answer the question is the financial difficulty we find ourselves in the next year and the years after that is that because this mayor and the previous council and this council cut taxes two or three years in a row Alderman Gishon the way in I think he would probably say that's a policy decision as he often says you get into these discussions what do you guys say last year's tax reduction was $105,000 I think we all saw the graphs $105,000 doesn't mean anything to our issues it's one goodness percentage wise it's a minuscule amount based on the percentage of our issue so I would say personally the answer is no the second part of that is I think Alderman Ryan mentioned that we're in the top 18% of of high taxes in the entire state of Wisconsin so I think that's a tough sell to the constituents who are all having their own personal financial difficulties because of what's going on in the state and in the nation you certainly can't blame it on the citizens for wanting more of their money when they're already one of the 18th highest taxed communities in the state I'll take that as no and Terry you know okay that cover so the financial difficulties we find ourselves in are not related to the mayor and previous council's efforts to cut our neighbors' taxes who's next Alderman Hassel please thank you Mr. Chair you know as far as that comment there I mean I hope there's no regrets within this body about what we've done over the last three or four years in our efforts to cut taxes I mean that to me that'd be absurd because it's about the constituents not about feeding the city budget months or so to say keeping it fed based on the back of our constituents so I think it's a kudos to this body that we've done what we've done over the last three or four years to that comment and recovery and reinvestment act there's been some projects submitted and so on would it be fair to say those are all outside of the budget would have no impact on the numbers put up here by Terry at the end of the day even if we were to cash in on that maybe Terry or either one of you but would they have any impact on the O10 budget well what we originally did in that first round during phase one we looked at projects that weren't funded through the capital improvements program so in the second round we were going to put in I mean if there's a vote taken to eliminate street resurfacing if a project is eligible which means it has to be a collector wrote or hire we would put that into the phase two under with stats so on the capital improvement side and that money that you know you'd have as a an ongoing expense for however you know I don't know what the exact amount of years would be potentially it could impact that but we don't know it's not a guarantee I guess I'm thinking it's a variable expense that we could probably go without in a tight budget year anyway some of these projects I would just say as the projects typically that department had submit are necessary projects and you know I realize that there it's tough financial situation right now but I've said it to a couple elder persons that at the rate we're going will never replace all of our streets or do all of the infrastructure improvements that we have to undertake as a city and so you know we I know that I think through public works it's been mentioned that you know maybe work you look at other funding sources the grants the stimulus CDBG and as department head I've already been doing that and if we can fund it with another source we will try to but I truthfully don't think that we'd be able to you know to make up that gap that's it I'll say Alderman Ryan you're next Thanks again Chairman Boak we can't go forever without doing capital improvements we know that because every year our streets deteriorate more and more and it looks like this year with the exception of a sewer project our that'll be our main capital improvements project other than that we're going to be patching potholes again so that they can come back out this next winter so we know we can't do this forever you know it's you know what we're looking at right now is to make it through probably the next two years if we can make it through the next two years and the economy picks back up and we can possibly grow our tax base in this city you know that's what we're looking at basically I you know I don't think we we're looking five years down the road to be in this situation we're looking at the next two years that we need to make it through I don't think this council should regret holding the line on taxes the way we've done to this point because I mean if we if we did the customary 3% increases in taxes every year for the last for the last four years that we did hold the line on taxes I mean we our taxes will be 10% more than they are right now if you're paying $6,000 in taxes on your home you're paying $6,600 so I mean we've you know we shouldn't do what we've done I mean we're in a situation now that we just have to figure out how to how to be more efficient in what we do and you know it's that's where we're at that's that's reality and that's that's what we need to deal with so I think it's all of us just said early on that that answer isn't going to come necessarily from the 16 people here it's not going to come from whoever the next mayor is it's going to come from a lot of people department head citizens all this working together you know I know there's a lot of people have strong opinions on whether some of the turnover that's happened in the departments has been good turnover or not good turnover that'll happen before I was before I was an alderman so I can't speak to that but what I will say I will express my absolute confidence this mayor has made some really and the civil service commission has made some really fantastic hires I'll I'll echo I'll see Alderman Boren's praise and I'll raise him one Bill Bittner and one to Julie because those four along with Terry Hansen and and again Angela has been here a very short time but already making a big big difference in how we look at 2010 and beyond so this mayor has done a great job of leading the putting in great talent at the department head level and that'll be important and I know whoever the next mayor is both of them either of them will work very hard to turn those new department heads into a team and that's what that's really where the answer is going to come from Alderman Gisha Alderman Boren Alderman Boren just one small comment I'd like to be the devil's advocate here for a moment as much as we claim we were doing these Herculean efforts and I'm sure that many of these Herculean efforts were taking place and trying to make ends meet the plain fact of the thing is our citizens don't agree with us they don't think we're doing a good job and this can be clearly demonstrated in the last election that was very clearly pointed out that the citizens are unhappy so what are we doing wrong why are they unhappy I think it's something that we have to look maybe into ourselves as well there's a great deal of discontent out there and I hear it, I hear it everywhere and of course the ballot box clearly demonstrated that in the last election thank you Alderman Wongerman that's a great lead in I think it's really clear again, decades and decades of sending certain people to Madison that then vote to strengthen certain laws and programs that over years and years and years add up to complicated things so as Alderman Wongerman points out elections have consequences so vote your interests on election day I think it's fair that even the kids would echo that, right? vote your interests yes just to be clear and maybe dovetailing up after what you're saying our issues go back decades not two years, four years or six decades government isn't set up like business business you had an income statement like this or balance sheets fines or income statements if you had an income statement like this it would really make some changes in government you can't be agile like that the system is set up against you we have to make some changes unfortunately for us that's why we're trying to start it early and get this discussion going here in March because if we started in November we'd never get anything changed because government moves so slow so we have the same challenges from we have a huge challenge from an agility standpoint that is you'd better bring them forward quickly and I agree to a point with Alderman Wongam if the citizens weren't happy imagine raising their taxes 3% plus I don't think they'd be real cheerful about that considering their current personal situations excellent point Alderman Ryan you're next thank you speaking of our new department heads we've talked down several times with Terry Hansen also with Dave Lutsky our city assessor and I must concur that the younger department heads that we have now they think outside the box they've come up with some ideas that obviously we don't want to as Terry said they're pretty raw right now but they think a little differently than this is the way it's always been done and working together with them and the various departments around the city I think they do have some you know there's no silver bullet out there believe me but they do have some ideas that if you know the council can discuss them and add to them that there are some small solutions out there to some of our problems and I think that you know we need to we need to have the ability to listen to them and to keep an open mind on some things that can be done that are a bit outside the box and you know I've asked them I said has any other city ever done this and they said we don't know we just came up with it so I mean it's there's some good ideas that they have and I'm looking forward to them presenting them in the near future thank you I'll remember Hassel thank you Mr. Chair can I ask Terry is there any reason you know again with the unprecedented difficult financial times is there any reason to believe that we're going to have a higher rate of defaults on property tax as another source source spot coming to this budget hasn't been commented here but that's a good thing for the city is if we do not bear that risk the county bears that risk so when the taxes are levied and the county sends over the city's full payment and then it's up to them to deal with the delinquencies on that if you have to worry about the personal property taxes that we are liable for are not liable but we hold the bag for that if they do not get paid but otherwise the regular property taxes the county has that risk is there any history to go off of from a personal property tax standpoint to know what to expect here in eight months I believe traditionally we collect about 98 to 99% of our personal property taxes I guess what I'm saying if we looked at any tough years in the past is there any historical data to go back to whether it be the early 90's early 80's I have not done that analysis and now that you mention it it will probably be a good thing to look back and see if we have seen a dip in that and I'll be happy to report that to the finance committee to get it to the council thanks at this point the older persons have no more questions I consider inviting department heads to ask then at this point please attorney McLean if you come up to the mic let me get the tape on I would just say there are positive things Terry has given the gloom and doom scenario as to what's going to happen with the budget my understanding that's the governor's proposed budget it hasn't been finalized by the legislature yet I know the legal Wisconsin municipalities which represents our interests in Madison is lobbying the legislature to try to reduce some of those costs and that may or may not happen I think the Wisconsin retirement fund shortfalls is a given I think the levy the shared revenue increases are given but the things like the recycling increases and the tipping fees and the environmental fees for municipal solid waste I don't know that that's a given I know the league is supporting a consummate increase in recycling grants back to municipalities in some proportion to the increased fees that's one aspect I think that can be dealt with my comment would be as far as this we've been talking about the operating budget of the city I'm concerned that it doesn't necessarily wait I don't think that the capital expenditures necessarily go hand in hand with the operating budget the city is based on infrastructure and that's what the city does that that infrastructure continues to deteriorate over years and to say that for two years or three years or five years that we're going to just defer all the maintenance and the upkeep I think all you're ending up doing is maybe creating the situation that you're complaining about is dealing with the short-term solution with the short-term answer and not looking at the longer-term of the city the city is going to be here a long time those costs and those improvements are not going to go away they're just going to get worse and from my standpoint one important program I can point to is sidewalk improvements we don't earmark a great deal of money each year to sidewalk improvements but we do allocate on a systematic basis I think it's $100,000 $120,000 we've been allocating towards repairing sidewalks every year people trip and fall on the sidewalks they sue the city the biggest defense the city has is we've got a program in place a systematic program to replace the sidewalks yes maybe we're not keeping up with the deterioration but we've got a program and from a liability standpoint that's very important I think judges and juries recognize that you can do you can only do so much but you should be doing something and not just burying your head in the sand and saying we don't have any money to do these things so as far as the final point I guess I would make I don't know if you've seen this week but the cover is Uncle Sam wants you to spend your money to stimulate the economy to get people to work and what's being stimulated is interest rates the interest rates are probably as low now as they've been in the last 40 years so as far as doing projects and capital projects if you're tying operating deficits or operating costs to capital projects you know two or three years from now yeah you can do the project then borrow then but it could very well be a lot more expensive in borrowing expenses two or three years down the road I guess I'll admit I'm not a finance person but I've been one of these people who have been with the city for a long time and I do here every year we've got a tight budget situation I believe that's true and I think it's getting worse but I just don't feel that the council can just totally ignore a reasonable capital improvements program for a number of years I personally don't think it's prudent as a resident of the city but obviously that's the decision council makes, not me Thanks Attorney McLean and Attorney McLean does a good job in liability interests Terry you want to speak to that and I'll concur with a lot of what Steve said and we've been focusing on cost reduction on a lot of this and tax impact and it's all about the affordability to pay one of the things that I've seen with the capital improvement program in the short time I've been here is that it's moved away from capital improvements to the fund that we had we had a lot going towards stormwater funding almost 3 million dollars was initially slated for stormwater funding 2.7 million that's a lot on something that was never ever in that program before so that took a lion's share and then through the years with the accounting and the budgeting and trying to get things to balance stuff that should be funded and then the funding expenditures in the general fund were shifted over to the capital improvement plan where now we're funding buses software acquisition website upgrades those items in the capital improvement plan when that's intended for your actual hard infrastructure was the original intent in this one we talk about the roads the roads if we don't do it they'll deteriorate but chipping $500,000 that's what was proposed in this capital improvement plan so what Steve was saying maybe part of that could be looking at the capital improvement plan saying we need to focus on hard infrastructure stuff that'll improve, make people want to come here make businesses want to come here with nice streets, nice sidewalks those hard tangible assets and then find a way to fund the other items like the software the buses the buildings through another mechanism and through our general operating and building in those one-time expenditures again into the general fund would be ideal thank you one thing Sam Garan did come to a finance committee meeting and lobby very smartly for exactly what these two gentlemen are saying is that if you let the infrastructure deteriorate too long if you don't keep up the general maintenance on the infrastructure then when you play catch up that's a lot harder of a financial thing to make but at the end of the day we're a service industry we're in the service business so we are personnel heavy or we're personnel intensive people intensive so that the challenges we face aren't by virtue of any selfishness on their part aren't by virtue of anything like that it's by virtue of the fact that when you look at that pie chart people are 85% of every dollar we spend those are people dollars and so even if we didn't do anything differently, if we didn't ask them to work any harder, we didn't ask them to come up with any ideas we have to come up with a million dollars a year it's not just a million dollars it's a million dollars this year and then two million the year after that and then three million the year after that and four million so that it's a new million every year just to do the same old stuff and I think that's the unsustainable part that we've gotten to a point as a community where the growth we've been experiencing is just unsustainable anymore I'll remember hassle please thank you Mr. Chair one last thought here I guess as I was looking at page 3 of the 2010 general fund numbers going back a while now here we all understand we have an ambulance service now which was sold as a generator of revenue I'm surprised not to see that as an offsetting number there benefitting that's on the bottom line where where's the line item I guess I think he's talking about tonight on the slides it is incorporated as an offsetting we're expecting $200,000 or something like that it is already projected for 2009 that increase that we anticipated in speaking with fire chief Vastusky we already incorporated that in the O9 numbers we weren't projecting an additional amount yet for 2010 we're going to see where those O9 figures start rolling in so basically if we are going to see an increase in that we don't want to count the chickens before they hatch we want to make sure that we're dealing with good solid numbers in that regard so that's why it doesn't show as an additional it was already incorporated into the 2009 budget offsetting the total fire budget no in the general fund revenues in 2009 2008 I can't remember the numbers exactly but we did increase the ambulance contribution to the general fund to offset some costs that was incorporated in 2009 when speaking with the fire chief he did not feel comfortable raising it any higher than what we projected for 2009 and we haven't had the discussions on where he thinks it will be in 2010 so that's why it's not shown as a specific line item in 2010 in these numbers these are only additional monies or subtractions that we foresee in the upcoming year so right now I haven't had any indication from the fire chief saying our 2010 revenues from the ambulance will be even more than they are budgeted for 2009 so that's why it's not presented as such I don't have the original projections here from a few years ago correct me if I'm wrong, were we projecting something like $300,000 to $400,000 by 2010? and that's what's in the budget for 2010 regarding that particular subject let's just look at 2009 where net income was roughly $200,000 if you were to eliminate that you'd have to find $200,000 somewhere else and that would add to that $1.7 million figure so that's a net positive that the tax payer is not a the other one that always keeps being brought up is tourism tourism department spending money on tourism people should understand not a nickel of general fund money goes into tourism it comes from the room tax dollars and that means not a nickel of citizen tax payer money correct so people should some of it has been legend you know and just so that's clear so you can kind of knock some of these things off so you're really looking at what the core issue is okay I've got no more lights again I'd offer to the department heads any other questions from the department heads okay then at this point thank you to the gentleman and lady who presented good knowledge we're not done yet we're on item number seven again for these next four items the decision we need to make now as a group do we make a recommendation vote do we file it do we agree to meet before April 10th we could meet as this committee of the whole on these topics by April 10th or do we hold it refer it I guess over to the new committee of the whole so the next item is a council item 2432 Vice President Thank you Mr. Chairman 2742 was a came up on my radar screen back in early March and this has to do with the an article from the journal Sentinel 32 statement state retirement system to cut benefits in May it's kind of a short article so I'm going to just highlight some of it for the people here and at home to kind of explain how we got on this quandary with the state retirement fund for the first time in its 26-year history the Wisconsin retirement system will cut the size of retiree monthly benefits starting in May the cut was expected based on unprecedented stock market volatility and dramatic declines in stocks through much of last year members of the system's core fund annuity will see a 2.1% decrease in their monthly payments the employee trust funds those payments went up 6.6% last year participants in the variable annuity will see a 42% decrease in the payments they received related to that fund generally speaking no more than 70% of the retiree money payment can be affected by the variable fund performance and then it goes on to say about 145,000 retired state local government workers and teachers will be affected by the cuts about 35,000 of them at some point in their career elected to allocate some assets to the all-stock variable fund and will be affected by its much larger decline and this is what came on my radar screen when I saw this article and I brought it to the attention of our finance director taxpayers will also likely take a hit the department of employment trust funds has warned municipalities counties school boards and the state that they will have to boost contributions to the pension fund that covers approximately 550,000 active employees and retirees governments on average contribute about 10.4% of their payroll to the Wisconsin retirement system a figure that will likely increase in 2010 because of the stock market declines the board will meet in June to set the contribution rate increases for 2010 preliminary projections so that those rates will increase roughly 0.8% which would boost the amount the local governments would have to contribute to 11.2% so as I said this came on the radar screen back in early March I reported it to the finance director and Mr. Hansen reported it to the finance committee at one of our meetings and this again is one of the reasons why we're here tonight I'll make a motion to file any discussion on filing this item okay all in favor opposed motion carries council item 24 Aldermen Guesha it was based on that item you're faster than I am gotcha it is a resolution amending resolution 120809 approving the 2009-13 capital improvements program Aldermen Guesha I was under the impression we amended it at Monday's meeting and it was sent to us amended is that accurate correct that language I make a motion to with a approval or favorable recommendation from the committee the whole on 24-44 as amended there's a motion to send the council back recommendation to approve is there a second second under discussion Aldermen Guesha thank you Mr. Chair I guess in subsequent discussions that I've had regarding the addition that we put in there was the software package for police and fire I've come to the understanding that it's not necessarily priority number one or an absolute must on their part and with that I'd like to also offer up an amendment that we strike the software update reference and replace it with mini storm flood mitigation as a use for those additional 250,000 dollars is there a second on that amendment seconded by Alderperson Montemayo under discussion on the amendment only the to strike what's the figure again 250,000 to strike 250,000 and shift the purposes of that 250,000 to all storm water whether it's mini or any types of flood mitigation Aldermen Montemayo I'm waiting to speak about the general I'm sorry on the amendment Alderperson Guesha is that on the amendment thank you Chairman Bauch Mr. Hanson say we shouldn't be doing flood mitigation on the capital improvements fund the 800,000 I would have struck frankly but I would have been interested in striking presenting that point of view if we hadn't already had our up to our neck and had left bids out and had contractor meetings and we would have been in a financial predicament with that the 250,000 for the police software just like the 800,000 we've had a year or plus of meetings with the county they've inserted it into their budget we inserted into ours we have then a an efficiency update for the safety of the citizens that's legitimate and real and we've already invested five times as amount in time getting to this point and our partners in the county have stepped up and I feel it's necessary for us to step up because of our commitment we've made much like the 800,000 dollars was a commitment we made so I will not vote for the amendment because it's doing exactly what Terry suggested we didn't do and it would really be a problem with our relationship and our partnership with the county okay any other discussion on the amendment okay then Alderman and Verhasl please just following up to that I mean it's surprising that we would on one hand support the 250,000 I'm not saying we but certain individuals would support the 250,000 for police and fire for an update for software that we currently have something that's a little more convenient maybe a little more advanced but we already have a very good package in place this is an update is what it is we're not going from zero to 60 I'm surprised that we would support that but then when we've got matters that are real to constituents here we are in the spring a lot of flooding going on basements under water and we've had a number of years without any efforts in this area any dollars spent and here we are saying we'll take care of our own here in city government we're going to leave the constituents I'd like to say high and drive but actually it'd be low and wet and Alderman thank you Alderman Verhasl those are very good points from different person Verhasl and nobody is choosing ourselves over the citizens that software serves our citizens we have a crappy software system between the city and the county frankly if you want the truth and we have already invested money in it by not taking it to the next level we're going to throw away all the work and time and money we've invested in it to this point which is poor government and poor use of taxpayer money I believe we need flood mitigation but we need to do it as director Hanson suggested in a different manner and not with the capital improvement program okay and thank you and Alderman thank you mr. chairman Alderman Hanna from the public protection and safety committee could you or if there's a representative here from the police department with knowledge could you give us kind of a quick synopsis on what this software where the improvement is going to be do you have me on? okay and I'll just give you a quick synopsis what it's going to allow us to do is to facilitate better communication between the county the sheriff's department and our police department it effectively brings us into the to the new century in terms of communication and response time so I think it's a good investment in the safety of our citizens it's another step forward in sharing services between the city and the county I just think it's very important that we we keep that ball rolling that's where we're going to see real savings down the road is working more closely with the city and the county and this is a very hard example of work we've put in over the last nine months to make us work together better as a team thank you thank you and I certainly appreciate the efforts that everybody's done and I can understand that if you put in a number of months researching this but I don't know that if we take the notes all the information that we've gathered and the decisions put them on the shelf until a point that's more appropriate whether it be eight months or 12 months from now I don't know that that information is going to age that quickly that it would become irrelevant I just think it would be more appropriate in 2010 and approach again that update we're not talking about a basic installation we're talking an update let's just take that information which is again very well appreciated and use it next year okay we've got two more lights and then we'll have the vote on the amendment thank you chairperson I believe Terry Hanson said that software shouldn't be in capital improvements either I mean we're in a rock and a hard place both of these things shouldn't be in capital improvements either the stormwater projects nor the software project so I don't know public protection people's protection as well from the elements I don't know it's a hard decision to make really is thank you and all the person Ryan you're last for the sake of cooperation with the county in the future there were many many months put into this with the city and the county cooperating for a long term goal which will be sharing more services in the future which is one of the one of the vehicles that we're going to have to operate more efficiently in the city and it's one of those things that we can do in the near term we can get real results out of it by sharing equipment etc now for us to spend that much amount of time on this cooperating with our friends at the county and now to say okay we're not going to do it I think is sending the wrong message I believe at this point I agree this doesn't belong in capital improvements storm sewers don't belong in capital improvements or mini storm sewers basically everything in capital improvements we're talking about tonight doesn't belong in capital improvements but this is the only vehicle we have right now because it was put into capital improvements to finance it and I think we're sending the wrong message on cooperation with the county when we spend many months coming to an agreement and then we turn around and say okay we're not going to do it now in the future in the near future we have some great opportunities with the county if we can continue to work together to save some real money for the citizens and this is you know we're sending the wrong message if all of a sudden they've already obligated to this we've obligated to it and now we don't finance it so I'm going to stick with the original plan okay thank you voting on the amendment to repurpose $250,000 away from the software technology and toward toward some sort of water abatement programs on the amendment we'll do a voice vote a yes a yes vote moves it from software to mini storm sewers born no Alderman Balke abstains Decker Gisha Hannah votes no Hardiman Clayunas Montemure Ryan Surik Ferhasen Wongerman We have three yes votes we have one abstention and eight no votes Oh eight and three okay so the amendment motion on the amendment fails now any discussion any continuing discussion on the resolution itself all the person Montemure thank you Chairman Balke this is all enlightening and frightening tonight however I find it very difficult to vote against bonding to use citizens money for the good of the citizens for their streets their sidewalks and their flood I have to vote in favor of somehow figuring out how we can use the citizens money for the good of the citizens so I will be voting no on this motion this resolution to reduce the bonding for the good of the citizens okay thank you any other comments on the on 2444 itself all are Vice President Bourne I feel very bad that I can't vote for this five million dollar capital improvements bonding because I did vote for it in finance but that's before all of the other information came out that we talked about tonight Alderman Heidemann and I were down at on 10th in Washington this summer those people were so happy that we were finally going to get some relief for their flooding down there and we both feel awful that we're apparently going to be able to do this and it's for the simple reason as I explained to a couple constituents and as I think Alderman Gish has said the other night there is not money in the checkbook there's no money of the taxpayers to use for this we can't repay it it's that simple and I feel terrible after all the years my constituents have gone through with this flooding that we can't take care of it we just simply can't so I'm going to support the one million fifty thousand dollars reluctantly but that's all I can do right now and just to be clear back me up on this whether I'm right or wrong it's not about we could bond for as much as we want to bond we could bond for the five million it's about our ability to pay the interest back on the bond so it's about if we borrow more we can't afford to pay back the interest on that money if we did the sidewalks and the storm water and all that it's about our inability to pay the interest any other comments before we move to the vote okay then President Hanna if you'd call voice vote so an approve an aye vote is to approve 2444 which is to set it at a million fifty one million fifty dollars for capital improvements fifty thousand one million fifty thousand sorry one million fifty million fifty one million fifty thousand Decker Geisha Hanna votes aye Heidemann Kleyunas Montmiguer Ryan Sir Brahasen Longerman Born Nine Ayes One Abstention and Two Noes okay so the motion to recommend to the council to approve the last item in this agenda item is council item 2458 referring a couple of hours to us regarding concrete sidewalk programs. I move that they be held over to the next common council next committee the whole of the common council okay okay there's a motion in second to hold this over to the next committee the whole in late April early May and second under discussion thank you Mr. Chairman could we get a dollar figure on what this sidewalk construction construction project is was it a hundred thousand bucks or I don't have the exact number in front of me but it was about fifty some thousand dollars it was a portion of the project and if we wait and decide this you know if it comes back in early May we decided by June will that be too late to execute that this year or we can confirm that with the I'm not quite sure how long the bids are good for but I don't see that as being a problem okay okay so given that any other discussion on this item all the person want to mail it thank you Chairman Buck well I'm glad to hear that because I assumed that 2458 was dead if the bonding was dead and that's not the case but you think you'll be able to find the money somewhere that's part of the the debt issue so if you vote at council to not borrow the funds then that would that project would go away right yeah I'm just checking I just meant from the standpoint of will the bids still be good in the contracts and so you might want to just refer that back to council along with your capital improvements recommendation because it can't be done it's over with correct if it passes council right okay I would like to withdraw my motion to if the second will yield to for the carryover to the next committee the whole and change that into a a motion to recommend to the common council 2458 to negative denial fascist I'm not sure what the verb is motion to the is that a legal term so you would like a motion to file this very good thank you I'll go with that than saying deny don't do go away is there a second to file motion to file the motion before us is to file item 2458 which then would not we would not be able to move forward with these two particular sidewalk or this one particular sidewalk project any discussion on this item I'll remember hassle okay so if we come this coming council meeting if we approve the million fifty thousand the sidewalks are going to happen they won't happen no matter what but I think based on what Paulette said we file this tonight then if the million fifty gets denied and we're back to talking about more capital improvement money we could always bring this back up again so where was this being supported in the first place public works was recommending was it part of the cap x program at one point the bonding it was part of the five million bonding okay so it got lost in the reduction from five to one all of them born just from a devil's advocate position on this this fifty thousand dollars somehow if we could find it might be worthwhile to spend just from a liability standpoint of somebody tripping and falling on a sidewalk that's heaved up and I believe these sidewalk projects are on a cost share with the constituents I forgot what the percentage is so the constituent that's having the work done pays some of it and then the city pays the rest of it but just from a liability standpoint I would like to see coming up with fifty thousand dollars somewhere we have one successful court case against the city because of a heaved sidewalk I think it's money well spent if we if we can somehow find it okay Alderman Hannah I think Alderman born's points well taken my suggestion is that would be an amendment at the council floor to add an additional fifty thousand to the bonding thank you and I would mention I would just ask the question have we had many fifty thousand dollar successfully waged against us in the past ten or fifteen years I don't know the answer to that but Alderman Ryan you're next but do you have an answer to that Alderman okay so I'm going to all the person want to know please there have not been any successful ones because we do have a program fair enough okay thank you and Alderman Ryan and I agree with that we have had a program in the past and that's why they're not successful and you know with the city being self-insured and the answer is always no when somebody sues us so but yeah we could if we don't have a program our exposure is definitely increased okay Alderman last final point and if suggestion might be that an Alderman would like to pull out the budget book and find fifty thousand dollars in another program or overage in another fund or something to do that rather than bonding for it that's also an exercise to find fifty thousand dollars and a prudent one at that okay with that we will vote it's a vote on the motion twenty four fifty eight the motion is to file an aye vote we'll file the document Gisha aye Hannah votes aye Hydeman aye Clayton's no Montemure no Ryan aye Siric aye for Hathen no Longerman no Decker and an abstention for the chair except the chair is going to have to learn we've got six to five six no's I'm sorry six yes's and five no's the chair does not have to vote okay so the motion passes this document will be filed next item is the discussion of the content or data in the next committee of the whole meeting so this what this conversation is about is do we want to meet one more time between now and April 10th on any particular subject or do we want to adjourn Sinai Dye tonight Sinai Dye I'll remember Mr. Chair we've talked about this before the meeting over the last few days but I would really appreciate an opportunity to talk regarding the pay plan prior to leaving the council here in April okay and the along with Human Resource Director Angela Payne's assistance okay how does the body feel about that I'm seeing some head nods Alderman Guesha just a suggestion Angela's new here I know she's dug in and done a wonderful job but I think I know she's working on this project and I don't believe it's completed she can perhaps answer for herself perhaps giving her time to come to some sort of conclusion might be helpful Alderman Hanna you're live and I think that Alderman Verhaslis put a lot of hard work into it and when he becomes citizen Verhaslis I think his input would continue to be welcomed by Angela and Human Resources so this is not lost the hard work that you've put into it and I would hope that we take this up relatively early in the new council year I guess if I may Mr. Chair I just wanted to add the purpose of the discussion would be purely of Angela some direction take a preliminary view of the pay plans some of the high points and low points and give her some direction moving forward she's got a big task ahead of her and I think it would be useful to her to have some direction from this group sooner rather than later okay, Alderman Kleinis thank you I think because this group is going to be disbanding I mean as far as I would see it more advantageous if we do it in the new council year because that group we have to be responsible for the pay plan in their decisions and whatever implications it has I think we can wait with citizen Verhaslis input Alderman Sirke, thank you I appreciate the efforts that Alderman Verhaslis put in but I think the proper avenue for this thing would be to go with the salary agreements first and hear the salary agreements committee kind of review the program and kind of fine tune it and then refer that to the council and to the committee I want to express thank you Alderman Sirke I want to express that all the person Verhaslis and I have been talking about this for a month or month and a half and so I feel sort of obligated because he's got some ideas he feels strongly about wanting to share it the calendar has ganged up on us along the way but I don't want to I don't want to call a meeting and then not have a quorum and not have him have the audience so I really do ask the indulgence of the committee and see if we set a date that seems appropriate for people could we get eight to show up but there's no sense calling it if there's just not the hunger for it Alderman Montemayor I'll show up just to clarify Mr. Chair this actually went through salary agreements back in October 30 so it was actually passed from that committee on to this committee so it actually, to Alderman Sirke's comment our group of five has reviewed the document already so I guess we'll leave it at that I'll set a meeting and hopefully we'll be able to get eight people did you still want to speak? Okay, alright, so I will call a meeting on the pay plan because I feel I think we owe it to because it has been on our docket for a while so we'll do that, we'll pick a date under adjournment I would entertain a motion to adjourn moved and seconded and then under discussion, I'd just like to say a couple of things so what we took away from tonight is we're in a pickle, we're in a $1.7 million pickle that because of the conservatism of Director Hanson is probably more it could be as high as a $2.4 $2.5 million pickle and that money's got to come from somewhere we don't think there are any routets to be pulled out of the hats so my advice to the citizens is you've got two really good mayoral candidates that are going to spend some time in front of a microphone in front of you so my recommendation would be to put these mayoral candidates on the spot ask them tough intelligent questions about have they done their homework what are their creative ideas what will the team here in the city among the city employees and not just what will they do to cut costs we need that, but what will they do to grow revenues and remember on election day elections have consequences so go out and vote your interests any other discussion all in favor of a journey opposed, good night