 Hi everybody, welcome back to re-invent 2022. We're wrapping up four days. Well, one evening and three solid days, wall-to-wall of cube coverage. I'm Dave Vellante. John Furrier's birthday is today. He's on a plane to London to go see his nephew get married, his great sister Janet, awesome family, the Furriers, spanning the globe. And John, I know you wanted to be here. You're watching in Newark. You were waiting to get in the plane, so all the best to you. Happy birthday. One year, the Amazon PR people brought a cake out to celebrate John's birthday. He's always here at AWS re-invented his birthday. So I'm really pleased to have two really special guests. Former cube host, cube alum, great Wikibon contributor, Stu Miniman, now with Red Hat. Stu, good to see you again. Great to be here, Dave. I was here for that cake. The Twitterverse was really helping to celebrate John's birthday today. And, you know, always great to be here with you and with this, you know, awesome event this week. And friend of the cube, many-time cube, often cube contributor. As here is a cube analyst this week. As his own consultancy, Sarb G. Johal. Great to see you, thanks for coming on. Good to see you, Dave. Good to see you, Stu. I'm always happy to participate in these discussions and I enjoy the discussions that we've done. So this is kind of cool because, you know, usually the last day is a getaway day and this is a getaway day, but this place is still packed. I mean, it's definitely lighter. You can at least walk and not get slammed. But, Sarb G, I'm going to start with you. I wanted to have you as the tail end here because you participated in the analyst sessions. You've been watching this event from the first moment and now you've got four days of the Kool-Aid injection but you're also talking to customers, developers, partners, the ecosystem. Where do you want to go? What's your big takeaways? I think big takeaways that Amazon sort of innovation machine is chugging along. I was listening to some of the discussions when I was back to my room at nine. So they're filling the holes in some areas but in some areas they're moving forward. There's a lot to fix still. It doesn't seem like that. It seems like we are done with the cloud or the innovation is done. Now we are building at the millisecond level so where do you go next? There's a lot of room to grow on the storage side, on the network side, the improvements we need. And also making sure that the software which is, you know, which fits the hardware, like there's specialized software, sorry specialized hardware for certain software, you know? So there was a lot of talk around that and I attended some of those sessions where I asked the questions around like, we have specialized database for each kind of workload, specialized processors for each kind of workload. Yeah, the Graviton session you sat into. And actually one interesting before I forget that, obviously I asked that, like why there are so many databases and I asked for the egress cost and all that stuff, are you guys thinking about reducing that, you know? The answer was no, egress cost is not a big, big sort of showstopper for many of the customers but from all that sort of little discussion with the folks sitting who build these products over there was that the plethora of choice is given to the customers to make them feel that there's no vendor lock-in. So if you are using some open source, you know, software, it can be on the, you know, platform side or can be database side, you have database side, you have that option at AWS. So there's a lot there. Because I always thought that AWS is the mother of all lock-ins but it's got an ecosystem and we're going to talk about that. Yeah, exactly, we'll talk about that. Stu, what's working within AWS when you talk to customers and where are the challenges? Yeah, I got a comment on open source, Dave, of course there because, I mean, look, we criticized Amazon for years about their lack of contribution. They've gotten better. They're doing more in open source but is Amazon the mother of all lock-ins? Many times, absolutely. There's certain people inside Amazon saying, you know, many of us talk cloud native. They're like, well, let's do Amazon native which means you're like full stack is things from Amazon and do things the way that we want to do things. And, you know, I talked to a lot of customers, they use more than one cloud, Dave and therefore certain things, absolutely. I want to leverage the innovation that Amazon has brought. I do think we're past building all the main building blocks. In many ways, we are like in day two. Yes, Amazon is fanatically customer focused and will always stay that way. But, you know, there wasn't anything that jumped out at me last year or this year that was like, wow, new category, whole new way of thinking about something. We're in a vocals last year, Dave said, you know, we have over 200 services. If we listed to you the customer, we'd have over 2,000. His session this week actually got some great buzz for my friends in the serverless ecosystem. They love some of the things tying together. We're using data. The next flywheel that we're going to see for the next 10 years, Amazon's at the center of the cloud ecosystem in the IT world. So, you know, there's a lot of good things here and to your point, Dave, the ecosystem, one of the things I always look at is, you know, was there a booth that they're all going to be crying in their beer after Amazon made an announcement? There was not a tech vendor that I saw this week that was like, oh gosh, there was an announcement and all of a sudden our business is gone. Where I did hear some rumbling is, Amazon might be the next GSI to really move forward and we've seen all the GSI's pushing really deep into supporting the cloud, bringing workloads to the cloud and there's a little bit of rumbling as to that balance between what Amazon will do and their go-to-market partners. So a couple of things. I think we all agree that a lot of the announcements here today were taping seams, right? I call it. And as it relates to the mother-of-all lock-in, the reason why I say that, it's obviously very much a pejorative. Compare Oracle, company you know really well, with Amazon's lock-in. Amazon's lock-in is about bringing this ecosystem together so that you actually have choice within the house. So you don't have to leave, you know, there's a lot to eat at the table. You look at Oracle's ecosystem, it's like, eh. You know, Oracle is Oracle's ecosystem. So that is how I think they do lock-in customers by incenting them not to leave because there's so much choice. Dave, I agree with you a thousand, I mean, I'm here, I'm a good partner of AWS and all of the partners here want to be successful with Amazon and Amazon is open to that. It's not our way or get out, which Oracle tries, how much do you extract from the overall IT budget? You know, are you a YouTube where you give the people that help you create a large sum of the money? YouTube hasn't been all that profitable. Amazon, I think, is doing a good balance of the ecosystem makes money. You know, we used to talk, Dave, about, you know, how much dollars does VMware make versus there? I think, you know, Amazon is a much bigger, you know, VMware 2.0. We used to think, talk to us all the time, that VMware, for every dollar spent on VMware licenses, 15 or 12 or 20 were spent in the ecosystem, I would think the ratio is even higher here, and in Oracle, I would say it's, I don't know. Yeah, actually, one to point five, maybe, I don't know. I want to pick on your discussion about the ecosystem. The partner ecosystem is robust, strong, because wider, I was not saying that there's no lock-in with Amazon, right, AWS, there's lock-in, there's lock-in with everything, there's lock-in with open source as well, but the point is that the circle is so big, you don't feel like lock-in, but they're playing smart as well. They're bringing in the software, the platforms from the open source, they're picking up those packages and saying, we'll bring it in and cater that to you, through AWS, make it better, perform better, and also throw in their custom chips on top of that, hey, this MySQL runs better here, so like, what do you do? I thought, oh, Oracle, it's Oracle's product, if you will, right? So they are, I think they're filing on cost lenders from their go-to-market strategy, from their engineering, and they're listening to customers very closely, and that has sort of side effects as well. They're listening to customers, creates a sprawl of services, they have so many services, and I criticized them last year for calling everything a new service. I said, don't call it a new service, it's a feature of an existing service. Sure, a lot of features. A lot of features, yeah. Is egress, are egress costs a real problem, or is it just the on-prem guys picking at the scab? What do you hear from customers? So I mean, Dave, you know, I look at what Corey Quinn talks about all the time, and Amazon's charges on that are more expensive than any other cloud providers, and partly because Amazon is, you know, probably not a word they'd use, they are dominant when it comes to the infrastructure space, and therefore they do want to make it a little bit harder to do that, they can get away with it, because, yeah, you know, we've seen some of the cloud providers have special partnerships where you can actually, you know, leave and you're not going to be charged. And Amazon, they've been a little bit more flexible, but absolutely, I've heard customers say that they wish they were a little bit. Cloudflare was hammering them on this, it was some good tongue-in-cheek stuff. What else you got? Lay it on us, bring the analysis. So developers, this year I think the focus was on the off-site, it's shifting gradually, this was more focus on off-site, there was less talk of developers from the main stage, from all sort of quadrants, if you will, from all keynotes, right? So... Even Werner, this morning he had a little bit for... He was talking, but he was talking, his job is to rally up the builders, right? So he talks for the go-build, right? It was pipes I thought was kind of cool. Then I said like... Making glue easier, I thought that was good, you know? I know some folks who use that. I couldn't attend the whole session, but I heard in between, right? So it is really adopt or die, you know? I am a cloud pro for last, you know, 10 years, and I think it's the best model for technology consumption, right? Because of economies of scale, but more importantly, because of division of labor, because of specialization, because you can't afford to hire the best security people, the best, you know, arm, chip designers, you can't, you know? There's one actually, and I know that I came up with a bumper sticker, you guys talked about bumper sticker. I came up with that like last couple of weeks, innovation-favorite scale. They have scale, they have innovation. So that's where the innovation is, and it's not there again. They, I usually say the market sets the price. You, as a customer, don't set the price. The vendor doesn't set the price, market sets the price. So if somebody's complaining about their margins or egress and all that, I think that's BS. Yeah, I have a few more notes on the partners. You concur with that. Yeah, Dave, you know, just coming back to some of this commentary about, like, can Amazon actually enable something we used to call like community clouds? Companies like Goldman and NASDAQ and the like, where industries will actually be able to share data and expand the usage. And Amazon's going to help drive that API economy forward some. So it's good to see those things because we all know all of us are smarter than just any single company together. So again, some of that's open source, but some of that is, I think Amazon is allowing innovation to thrive some. I think the word you're looking for is super cloud there. Well, yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, Dave, if you want to go there with the super cloud, because you have the data. It is a metaphor for exactly what you described, NASDAQ, Goldman Sachs, and a number of other companies that are, do we think it's a Berkeley sky computing paper? Yeah. You know, that's a former super cloud. Dave Lenticum calls it metacloud. I don't really care what you call it. Yeah, I mean, I go back to the challenge we've been working at for a decade is distributed architecture. If you talk about AI architectures, what lives in the cloud? What lives at the edge? Where do we train things? Where do we do inferences? Location should matter a lot less. Amazon, I didn't hear a lot about this show, but when they came out with local zones and oh my gosh, all the things that Amazon is building to push out to the edge and also enabling that technology and software and the partner ecosystem helps expand that and pull it in. It's no longer, Dave, it was Hotel California. All of the data eventually is going to end up in the public cloud and lock it in. It's like, I don't think that's going to be the case. We know that there will be so much data out at the edge. Amazon absolutely is super important. There are some of those examples we're giving. It's not necessarily multi-cloud, but there's collaboration happening. Like in the healthcare world, universities and hospitals can all share what they're doing regardless of where they live. Well, Stephen Armstrong in the analyst session did say that we're going to talk about multi-cloud. We're not going to lead with it necessarily, but we aren't going to actually talk about it. And that's different to your point, Stu, than in the fullness of time, all the data will be in the cloud. That's a new narrative, but go ahead. Yeah, actually, Amazon is a leader in the cloud. So if they push the cloud, even if they don't say AWS or Amazon with it, they benefit from it, right? And the narrative is that way. The proof is there, right? So again, innovation, favorite scale. There are chips which are being made for high scale. There's software being tweaked for high scale. You, as a Bank of America or for the Chrysler, as a typical enterprise, you cannot afford to do those things in-house. What cloud providers can. I'm not saying just AWS, Google Cloud is there. Azure guys are there and a few others who are behind them and you guys are there as well. So IBM has, IBM, by the way, congratulations, Stu. You are red hot, I know, but IBM won the award. Okay, global partner of the year. We appreciate you. I saw that. I mean, I was like, yeah, I'm sorry to be right. Very good partner in, yeah, they have 34 billion reasons, but yeah. People are dragging their feet. People usually do all the change and they are in denial. They drag their feet and they cave in. IBM drag their feet, they cave in. Dell drag their feet, they cave in. You mean by dragging feet is cloud deniers? Yeah, cloud deniers, right? So server huggers, I call them. But they actually are sitting in Amazon Marketplace. Everybody's buying stuff from there. The Marketplace is the new model. Okay, Amazon created the Marketplace for B2C. They are leading the Marketplace of B2B as well on the technology side. And other people are copying it. So there are multiple Marketplaces now. So now actually, it's like if you're in mobile app development, there are two main platforms, Android and Apple. You first write the application for Apple, right? Then for Android, same here as a technology provider, as an ISV, you put your stuff to AWS first, then you go anywhere else. They are leading, they're winning. I guess I'll say. I got to go back. The enterprise app store is what we've wanted for a long time. The question is, is Amazon alone the enterprise app store, or are they part of a larger portfolio? Because there's a lot of SaaS companies out there that play into what we need. Well, you're talking about the future, but I just want to make a point about the past. You're talking about dragging their feet. Because in the cubes that have been following this, and Stu, you remember this in 2013, IBM actually got in a big fight with Amazon over the CIA deal, and it all became public. Judge Wheeler eviscerated IBM, and IBM ended up buying software, and then we know what happened there, and Joe Tucci thought the cloud was mosey, right? So it's just amazing to see, we have booksellers, VMware called them booksellers, and now all of them are talking about how great partnerships they are. It's amazing, like you said, it's our GC and IBM with the GSI partnership of the year. But what you guys were just talking about was the future, and that's what I wanted to get to, is because Amazon's been leading the way. I was listening to Warner this morning, and it just reminded me of back in the days, and when we used to listen to IBM, educate us, give us a masterclass on system design, and decoupled systems, and IO, and everything else. And now Amazon is the master educator, and it got me thinking, how long will that last? Will they go the way of the other incumbents? Will they be disrupted? Or will they keep innovating? Maybe it's going to take 10 or 20 years, I don't know. Yeah, so Dave, you actually did some research, I believe it was a year or so ago, what will stop Amazon? And the one thing that worries me a little bit is the two pizza teams, when you have over 200 two pizza teams, the amount of things that each one of those groups that needs to take care of, was more than any human can take care of. People burn out, they run out of people. How many Amazonians only last two or three years and then leave because it is tough. I bumped into plenty of friends of mine that have been six, 10 years at Amazon and love it, but it is a tough culture and they are driving. Warner's keynote, I thought, did look to from a product standpoint, you could say tape over some of the seams. Some of those solutions to bring beyond just a single product and bring them together and leverage data. So there are some signs that they might be able to get past some of those limitations, but I still worry structurally, culturally, there could be some challenges for Amazon to keep the momentum going, especially with the global economic impact that we are likely to see in the next year. Bring us home. I think for future side, like we could talk about the vendors all day, right? To serve the community out there, I think we should talk about what's the future of technology consumption from the consumer side? So from the supplier side, just a quick note, I think the only danger AWS has feds going after them, you know, too big, you know, like it will break you up and that can cause some disruption there. Other than that, I think they have some more steam to go for a few more years, at least before we start thinking about like, oh, this thing is falling apart or anything like that. So they have a lot more, they have momentum and it's continuing. So, okay, from the- I think Amazon retail, by the way, is going to get disrupted before AWS. Go ahead, carry on. From the buyer side, I think the future of the sort of technology consumption is based on the paper use and they actually are turning all their services to they are becoming serverless behind the scenes, right? All analytics service, they had one service left. They did that this year. So every service is serverless. So that means you pay exactly for the amount that you use, the compute, the IOPS, the storage. So all these three layers, of course, network, we talk about the egress stuff, that's the problem there because of the network design mainly, because Google has a flatter design and they have lower cost. So they are actually squeezing the, they're designing their services in a way that you don't waste any resources as a buyer. So for example, a very simple example, when earlier in the cloud, you will get a VM, right? In cloud, that's how we started. So, and you can use 20% of the VM, 80% is just getting wasted. That's not happening now. That has been reduced to the most extent. So now your VM grows as you grow the usage and if you go higher than the tier you picked, they will charge you, otherwise they will not charge you extra. So that's why there's still a lot of instances, like many different types, you have to pick one. I think the future is that those instances will go away. The instance will be formed for you on the fly. So that is the future. Serverless. All right, give us a bumper sticker. Let's do and then Sarbjeet, I'll give him my quick one and then we'll wrap. Yeah, so just Dave to play off of Sarbjeet and to wrap it up, you actually wrote about it on your preview post for here. Serverless, we're talking about how developers think about things and Amazon, in many ways, is the new default server for the cloud and containerization fits into the whole serverless paradigm, it's the space that I live in every day here and I was happy to see the last few years serverless in containers, there's a blowing a line and Sarbjeet, we're still going to see VMs for a long time. Yeah, yeah, we will see it. So give us your bumper sticker. My bumper sticker is innovation favorite scale. That's my bumper sticker and Amazon has that but also I want everybody else to, like the weirs to take a look at the Google cloud as well as IBM with others, like maybe you have a better price and performance there for certain workloads and by the way, one vendor cannot do it alone. We know that for sure. The market is so big, there's a lot of room for Red Hats of the World and Microsoft of the World to innovate, so keep an eye on them. We need the competition actually and that's why competition will keep us to a place where market sets the price of one vendor doesn't. So the only danger is if AWS is a monopoly, then I will be worried. I think ecosystems are the hallmark of a great cloud company and Amazon's got the biggest and baddest ecosystem. And I think the other thing to watch for is industries building on top of the cloud. You mentioned Goldman Sachs, NASDAQ, Capital One, Warner Media, all these industries are building their own clouds and that's where the real money is going to be made in the latter half of the 2020s. All right, we're a wrap. This is Dave Vellante. I want to first of all, thanks to our great sponsors AWS for having us here. This is our 10th year at theCUBE, AMD, sponsoring as well the theCUBE here. Accenture sponsored a third set upstairs on the fifth floor. All the ecosystem partners that came on theCUBE this week and supported our mission for free content. Our content is always free. We try to give more to the community and we take back. So go to thecube.net and you'll see all these videos. Go to siliconangle.com for all the news, wikibon.com, I publish weekly a breaking analysis series. I want to thank our amazing crew here. You guys, we have probably 30, 35 people, unbelievable. Our awesome host, John Walls, Paul Gillan, Lisa Martin, Savannah Peterson, John Furrier, who's on a plane. We appreciate Andrew and Leonard in our ear and all of our crew, Palo Alto, Boston and across the country. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. All right, we are a wrap. AWS re-invent 2022. We'll see you in two weeks. We'll see you in two weeks at Palo Alto Ignite back here in Vegas. Thanks for watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.