 Good afternoon everybody and welcome to our forum for city council candidates in Montpereur. I'm Joe Schochat with the Montpereur Rotary Club and the Rotary is pleased to sponsor this event. We're also delighted that we have a cooperation of the bridge and managing editor Cassandra Hemingway will be our moderator. Our timer is Donna Bate, current member of the city council and a Rotarian. In our audience questions are being fielded by Kim Bent who is the president of the Rotary Club this year and with the Lost Nation Theater. So without further ado I'll introduce Cassandra Hemingway who will welcome our candidates. Hello everybody thank you candidates for being here thank you to the Rotary Club for sponsoring this event. I'm Cassandra Hemingway the managing editor of the bridge and this forum today is designed to give candidates the opportunity to share their views and explain why they think they should be elected. It is not a debate so they won't be questioning each other and before introducing candidates I'll go over our format. We've asked the public to send in questions in advance and we've used those questions to help develop the list that we're about to ask folks. We also are inviting questions from the audience who's here today and we will be getting to those later in the program. We are asking people if you have a question to write it down and give it to Kim who's standing up in the back. Please put your name down when you ask a question so we can we can give you credit. We'll get in as many questions as we can fit and the candidates have not been given any questions in advance. Each candidate will have two minutes to introduce themselves and make their opening remarks and after that they'll have 90 seconds or a minute and a half to answer each of the following questions and then another minute and a half for their closing statements. The moderator has the discretion to make adjustments if needed. We talked about our timekeeper and for opening statements I'm going to call on candidates in a kind of an interesting way. We're going to start with semi alphabetical order but in the middle we are going to cluster we have three candidates who are all running for the same seat so we will identify them and the rest of the candidates are running what Salofano is running against another candidate, Merrick Monan, who can't be here today and Palin Khan is running unopposed. So I will identify those who are in a contested race with every question so folks can compare their answers. Okay so I'm going to introduce each of you and then and then we'll start hearing your opening remarks. We have going around the table Zach Hughes running for District 3, Tom Abdelnor running for District 3, Salofano running for District 2 seat and Palin Khan running for a different District 2 seat so although they are both running for District 2 they are not running against each other and Tim Heaney also running opposite of Tom and Zach for the District 3 seat on City Council. So Zach why don't you start us with your opening remarks. Thank you I'm Zachary Hughes I live in the Prospect Street neighborhood of District 3 in Montpelier. I've been a Montpelier resident since 1991 and I want to thank the invitation of the folks at the bridge and the rotary for being here this afternoon as I am a right-in candidate and my position right now is that I want to see more investment and less talk in certain areas inside the city particularly concerning infrastructure, housing and so on and I believe I can bring the energy into that. I also do a lot of work in social services and I would like the council to be represented for someone who is out there on a daily basis and sees what's going on and I also see this as an opportunity to elevate accessibility on the council as well. My hope is you know in this run and any future runs to promote all this and I thank you. Thank you Zach. The next person we'll ask to speak is Tom Abdelnor and I just want to apologize to the candidates because I'm way off of the originally planned order but we're we're gonna do District 3 candidates and then District 2 candidates. So Tom Abdelnor is running opposite of Zach and Tim. Thank you so much Cassandra. Thank you to the bridge and to the rotary for putting on this event. I'm the progressive candidate in this race. I'm running to serve on the council in a way that hopefully will be an extension of what I've devoted my entire professional career toward which is standing up for working families and giving a voice to folks who have not traditionally had a voice in politics. A quick background on myself for folks who may not be familiar with me. I'm originally from the Northeast Kingdom but I moved to Montpelier six years ago. I work for the Vermont State Employees Association and in that role I fight at the state house every day to ensure that these workers are getting the benefits, the pay, and are safe on their job in the way that they deserve to be treated. My background before moving to Montpelier was work in the office of Senator Bernie Sanders, work on President Obama's reelection campaign, and work for Senator Cory Booker in the state of New Jersey. And while I was excited to take all of those opportunities after I left law school, I did miss my home state and was happy to be able to move back to my home state and move to this beautiful city of Montpelier. My goal is to make sure that the ability to live in Montpelier, work in Montpelier, build families in Montpelier, and build careers in Montpelier is something that more young folks like myself can take advantage of, that they're able to afford to be here. I think it's crucial that Montpelier not just be a playground for the rich, but it's a working, thriving community that we can all enjoy. Part of that as well, and I'll speak to this in a moment later as well, is just making sure that seniors have the ability to stay in our community. Montpelier should not be a place where folks are having to leave because of an affordability crisis, and that'll be at the core of what I'm doing if I'm lucky enough to be on the council. Thanks so much. Thank you, Tom. And Tim Heaney, also running for the same seat on District 3. I am. Hi, Tim. Heaney. I grew up in Montpelier with my nine siblings, and went all the way to Burlington to UVM, got a degree in economics at University of Vermont, and came back and had the great privilege in life of being able to work with my dad for 16 years. It just really kind of was a great thing. My career in real estate brokerage has been interesting for a small town practice. We created a fair amount of housing since I joined my dad in 81, including, helped him with the Independence Green Freedom Drive neighborhood. And we did North Park Drive. That was a neighborhood over near Harvard Park. It's part of that project. My parents donated 51 acres to the park, which was a significant piece to help that the park grow. I've also been involved in other housing projects, creating single homes, a project in Berlin at Mansfield Lane. So I have a lot of experience in housing, and I know housing right now is a key need in Montpelier, so I'm feeling like it's a great time that I can contribute to the City Council on housing issues. I also share the infrastructure concerns and questions. Infrastructure is, it's an old city, and we have a lot of old infrastructure, and the challenge is how to bring it back up and make it all work. So Montpelier City Council is, you know, it's a nonpartisan local board. I think, you know, focusing on local issues of assisting with management of city's operations. So I think the life of experience here, I can really help with that and look forward to doing it. Thanks. Thank you, Tim. Sal, now the two District 2 candidates, I'm going to reach out to you in alphabetical order. So Sal Alfano running for District 2. Thanks, Chris Andrew. I am a current resident of Montpelier. I've lived over on McKinley Street for five years, but I have about a 50-year, a little more than a 50-year connection. I came here in 69 to go to school, fell in love with Vermont, and with the woman who eventually became my wife. We spent almost 30 years in East Calis, raised a couple of kids, and then my job took us to Washington, D.C. And the first chance we had to get back was 2017, and we didn't think twice about that. Serving on the Council has not been a lifelong dream of mine. I was really recruited by my neighbors, but the issues are engaging to me. I worked my way through college as a carpenter, eventually ran a construction company in the 70s and 80s, and started writing for magazines aimed at general contractors in the professional housing industry, residential mainly. And that job is what took me to Washington, D.C., where I was the editorial director of about a half a dozen magazines aimed at that audience. I have experience that I think can contribute to the issues that we're struggling with. The housing issue really attracted my attention, beginning with really the decision on the country club, country club road. And I just think that I'm the kind of person who does my homework. I'm thoughtful about issues. I have experience in business. I have experience with budgets, managing projects, and people. And I think I can contribute positively to solving some of the issues that the Council will face in the next year. Thank you, Sal. Now, Palin Khan is also running for District 2, but a, just correct me if I'm wrong, Sal, you are running for a one-year seat, and Palin is running for the two-year seat. So both of them will appear on the ballot separately, and Palin is currently serving on the City Council. Thank you, Cassandra. And thank you for Bridge, Rotary, Donna, and our commedia for this opportunity. I moved to Montpelier in 2017 from Turkey. Six years ago, I came here, leaving everything behind. And when I say everything, really, I mean everything. And I celebrate my 40-year-old birthday here. And when I blow the candles, I had only one wish, luck to myself, because I had to restart everything from scratch. And I thought, how can I do this? And I started volunteering because I just want to be part of Montpelier community. While I'm volunteering, I learned a lot of things, lots of issues. Then in December 2016, I was appointed to the City Council. And I've started public gatherings, listening sessions. And so far, I organize two of them, and I'm planning to do more after the election. And in City Council meetings, this listening session, I kept hearing same very, very three important issues, infrastructure, affordable housing, and renewable energy. And because of my background being immigrant, and when I talk to people, it comes up, right? And oh, why can't we have a more diverse Montpelier? What can I do about it? So I am running to make a difference in these issues. And also, I'm already doing, but I'm ready to listen more people and try to be their voice at the City Council. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, let's dive in. We're going to start by talking about budgeting. That's something I'm sure everybody on City Council hears about. Citizens will be voting on March 7th, among, besides for the City Council seats, they'll be voting on a nearly 11 and a half million dollar city budget for fiscal year 24. And that budget raised property taxes 7.6%. Given the many priorities reflected in the City budget, please describe how you plan to control and prioritize spending. And we will start with Sal. I'm the kind of budgets that I had it to do were basically year over year budgets, so it was use it or lose it, which is not an approach that I particularly endorse. I prefer sort of zero, zero budgeting where you start from scratch and take a look at what you need and how much you can raise and then make the choices that come from that. In our case, I, too, have heard, like others, from the residents of Montpelier as I've been campaigning and prior to that, actually, about the infrastructure and the housing issues, especially. And I think we're going to face some very difficult choices. I know we face them every year, but I think we're kind of at a tipping point. And it seems to me that we need to make a choice, choices this year between things that we must have and things that it would be nice to have. And those are difficult decisions because we've been able to get a lot of stuff that is nice to have in recent years. But I think we're at a point where we really have to hunker down and make a tough choice. Thank you, Sal. Tom. Thanks, Sandra. When I've been out knocking folks doors, speaking with folks throughout the community, I have heard a resounding response in terms of what is it that folks really want the council to be focused on. And that at this stage, and given the constraints that you described really focuses on the bread and butter, infrastructural issues, housing issues that our community faces, right? I think that we have to be able to prioritize. And I mean, I'll just say I live on School Street. School Street at the moment is a bit of an infrastructural nightmare. In addition to all of the well publicized water issues we've had. At the moment on School Street, there is a pothole there that, as I said the other night, I think could easily swallow a VW beetle at the moment, right? So we're dealing with massive, ongoing, serious infrastructural issues. And we're dealing with making sure that we have a community that's able to accommodate the folks that we want to be a part of it. And I think that's really key. We need to be budgeting in such a way and spending our resources in such a way that we're going to be building up our housing stock, right? Because as we've seen, people are already feeling the pinch from our current budget. And the only way we're going to keep taxes low while meeting our priorities is to raise that housing stock. And I'm sure we'll have more questions to talk about housing. We certainly will. Tim, and just to back up a little bit, Sal was answering from District 2. Tom running for District 3. Tim running for District 3. Yes. So budgeting, it's a marathon process every year. And I've watched it from the sidelines. So if elected, it'll be interesting to get more detail. But I'm thinking it's interesting because with the increases we've got that apparently are aligned with inflation, I don't think people's incomes have necessarily increased at the same levels. And a lot of other pieces in their lives have gone up at greater levels than that, like heating costs for their homes or apartments. And so I think we are at a tipping point with very high annual percentages of increase, even though it's in line with inflation. I think it's it's difficult for folks. I think another piece that's important in the budget process is that we use the term priorities in my player rather loosely. And sometimes I feel like everything's a priority, which means nothing is a priority. And we really need to find a way to focus on what's important to us and to focus our resources toward, you know, infrastructure. I think we can create more housing and also improve infrastructure. They're not musically mutually exclusive. I think we can also still manage our social programs that we need to. So I'm feeling the budget process will be an interesting learning experience. And it's just going to be an interesting piece to to the learning as we go through. Thanks. Thank you. Sack. Well, I think everyone sitting at this table can agree on all this pretty much. I I just it's a challenging process. I've also sat on that sidelines like Tim and others here and you know, I was moved by a constituent in District three, who was frustrated at the water rates being raised. And yeah, it got to me. You know, and I'm looking forward to a process to it. I think there are going to need to be a discussion of priorities. I think for too long, we've kind of bounced things around a little bit and tried to do things, you know, let's bounce it over here. And but I would be challenging the city. I would say we need to invest in something like you know, more restrooms. That's one thing, you know, I, I look at it from a tourist point of view, from a general public point of view, I'm not looking at from the homeless point. And I am on the homeless task force. But that bugs me. And I did see, you know, a promising investment, which will come out of the restroom committee at some point. But my my issue here is we just need to look at the things that the city really needs and do the investment. And we're gonna have you're right. We're gonna have hard decisions. And it's, you know, for me, when I hear a constituent say, I can't afford to live here anymore, it really gets to me, because you should be able to live here. You know, and so for me, I would want to look jointly with a list of priorities or whatever, and really have a discussion and not say, Well, someone else can do that. That's time. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, Palin. I agree most of the things other candidates mentioned. And I just want to point out that we have a specific amount of people who live here, which means that we have a specific amount of budget this year. And we will have the specific amount of budget for every year, which means that focusing on our needs as a community should be the first, then we should move to our visionary ideas, which we have a lot and we have to have them. And also, the thing is we want to improve our community. So we have a since we have a specific amount of budget, we should focus on the needs and also they are hidden costs. Then we can start creating more things for our community. Thank you. Thank you. So another fairly big topic in our city is homelessness. At last count, there are approximately 450 individuals who are houseless in central Vermont, and several dozen of them regularly in our city. There are controversies in town around some of, you know, where folks are panhandling, things like the restrooms that Zach brought up, elevated numbers of police calls, and of course, you know, concern for people. What do you think the city's role is in addressing homelessness? And we will start with Tom running for district three. Thanks, Cassandra. My concern for folks in the unhoused community is huge. And I think there that is a sentiment that's widely shared throughout this room and for folks watching today. I think the key to addressing this question is going to be how can we best leverage our resources as a city, while also really making sure that folks at the state level are meeting their responsibilities to Montpelier because this is not an issue that can simply be a city issue. I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. As we've discussed so far, Representative Conor Casey and Representative Kate McCann have currently sponsored a bill that's before the legislature right now that would provide a public restroom in the capital complex. I sit regularly as a part of my role working for the Vermont State Employees Association as their legislative coordinator in the Corrections and Institutions Committee, which is the committee that has that bill within it. And I've spoken to community activists about their support of this bill. In order to get these things done, we're going to have to partner between the legislature and the city in order to really jointly advance these projects. I'm working very closely with Representative Casey on his advocacy for this bill and I feel honored that both he and Representative Kate McCann have endorsed my candidacy. It's in part because of my ability they believe to get issues like this across the finish line. We all have the goodwill to do it. It's about using expertise and know how to actually get it done and it will be a top priority of mine if I'm on the council. Thank you. Thank you, Tom. Let's see. Tim also running for District 3. And housed issue is a big challenge and part of the reason it's such a giant challenge is there's so many people that they're impacted by it for so many different reasons. There's not one solution. And so anyway, I think as we step into it and try to get our arms around it and understand what we can do best, it feels like at least a few concrete steps. I think Montpelier is trying and communities around us are. I think Good Samaritan Haven is an amazing resource and they do so much work. It does it another way and we have good people here that are on it and churches are helping. But it feels like we need to do more. I think the public restrooms, as Zach mentioned, are a key element just to human dignity that we need in this town. It's something we can do and we just it's a concrete step. We should just do it. We have some at the transit center already, Connor Casey and Cater working on some. The key is getting them and then budgeting and finding a way to find taking care of them managing these spaces so that they can be safe and work and be clean. So I think that's where I would start and then the shelter side of it. Montpelier does not have a shelter. Other communities around us like Good Samaritan Havens and Berry, Twin City Motel. So I think we need to look at maybe an option for shelter in our community as well. Thanks. Thank you. Sorry, I lost track of did I did you answer this question, Zach? I think you're next on those. Zach running for District three. I just want to invite the candidates to come to the Homeless Task Force at any given time they meet on a regular basis or meeting this Wednesday. So I just want to lay that out. My first thing would be I just got to throw it out there because I'm a go getter and I want to do this. So the bathroom we need to invest. We're talking about $250,000 possible investment for the city. It would be a Portland Lou in the city. And while I appreciate Connor Casey's bill, it also contains a study provision. We got to do it, folks. I don't have time for study. I'm just gonna lay it out there. And, you know, we need to work together on homeless this as well. I don't think it's just a Montpelier issue. And later this in a couple months, I will be bringing together providers to figure out what we're going to do next winter, because we're in the winter still. But we still got to work on this. And we're doing great work. So thank you. Thank you, Zach. Palin running for district two. Thank you. Like Zach suggested, I attended homeless task force, one of the public forums. And there are so many things we are not aware of this issue. One thing, what I learned from that session, I could say that homelessness is not an issue that people don't have buildings to live. There are so many other issues created this problem, like mental health issues, social issues, psychological issues, employment, so many things. That's why it is really it is like a iceberg, right? We only see people outside the streets, but down deep down, there are so many things that we should do. And we should solve as a community, which means that city should collaborate more with experts, with other NGOs or associations, which are already doing this job, then we can create our plan. Now, as far as I observe, we are only talking about creating more buildings, but it is just the tip of the iceberg of the problem. Thank you. Thank you. Sal, running for district two. One year term. One year term. I agree with everything everyone has said. I'm looking for things to add, and I think maybe I have one or two, but I think people experiencing homelessness are there for a wide variety of reasons, and we can't address them all alone. I think we really need to ask, I think, first of all, the agencies and the people and the committees that are actively dealing with the problem, what they need most, and then see how much of that we can provide. But as a city, I think we can only do so much. I think we need to cooperate with the state government as well. I think, together, we need to solve that problem. I agree that housing isn't the only solution. There's a lot that needs to be dealt with, but I think housing, any housing plan that we come up with should address housing the homeless. Sort of a housing first approach, which has been successful in a lot of places, has to be done correctly. But it sets the groundwork and the foundation for all of the other services that you provide. So that's a good place to start, I think. Thank you. And that's a perfect segue to the next question, which is about housing. All the folks running for local office have pointed to housing as a pressing local issue, lack of it and lack of affordable housing. How will you use your position on City Council to address the growing housing crisis? And we will start with Tim running for District 3. So housing at the moment, I'm sure there are a number of exciting projects at different places along the way, trying to happen. So people are probably familiar with there's a couple of Northfield Street, including Habitat for Humanity has one. The Stonewall Meadows project seems like it's pretty well along and that that could be coming online soon. The Age of Zorzi property, Doug Zorzi and Alan Goldman I think have ideas for that property. And of course, the Country Club Road property that the city recently acquired is a big conversation point for housing. So being a member of the City Council with all these projects happening, it will be, I think any of our role if we're there is just to support to make sure the conversations happen. It happens at a lot of different levels at DRB and other levels is not City Council. So we won't be necessarily at the hearings for these projects as they happen, but we can provide support. I think for any of them to happen, that virtually every one of them there's going to be infrastructure that's needed. And I think part of our role in the council will be to know to be there to talk about how do we get the water and sewer lines to those areas and utilities so that this housing can happen in our community can grow. Thank you, Tim. Zach, running for District three. I still think it's going to take, you know, how would I use my position? It's it's a collaborative approach with others. And we do we do have projects in the pipeline as pointed out and there are more coming online throughout, you know, and so I think it would be a collaborative. I've always said it's a collaborative process. Because you can't do this alone. You know, and, you know, the more we have for and you can have a house, but you have to have more with it. And I am impressed with some of these projects. We've been able to complete certainly and I'm looking forward to more. But I think it's a collaborative effort from everybody, including the voters. Thank you. Thank you, Zach. Palin running for District two to your term. So my approach would be first, having current and transfer the data. So when we were listening to L's Lent, Country Club project, I asked the same thing to those group who made the presentation. By the way, they did a great job. So what are the numbers for, you know, how much house we want to have, right, and how much this project will solve that housing. So I've tried to research, I couldn't find any data for this issue. I think we need to work through numbers. Then it will give us a clear vision what we want to achieve. And I also checked, like a projectional month piliar, and how the living will be here. And the report is on the city's website. And there is an item net new jobs. And apparently, this projection says that 2025 month piliar will have 11,204 net new jobs, which means I think that much people coming Can you repeat that number 11,204? It says net new jobs. So that's why we have to combine these different numbers. And we have to first know how many houses we need and how many people are looking for those housing opportunities. Thank you. Thank you. Sal, running for district two one year seat. Yes, I agree that it would be essential to know to know where the numbers are on on housing, what the projections are for population, and how that relates to revenue and so on. But it's pretty clear that we have a supply demand problem. I think that that's what drives the key issue, which for me is the affordability element. I think people throw around the term affordability in a sort of simplistic way. For me, it means it means not only a first, first owner or first renter affordability, but perpetual affordability. And that that is a trickier thing to pull off than simply building something that that a first buyer or first renter can afford. I also think that the operational cost is something that needs to be factored in. I read something on front porch today about somebody who put in a heat pump and was disappointed that their electric bill was like three or four times what it should have been. And that I'm almost convinced without knowing the person that it's because their house isn't very well insulated. I mean, you you can't do one without the other. And so if we're going to build an affordable housing unit, wherever we build it in the city, we need to keep in mind that the people who own it and live there or rent it and live there are going to have to pay monthly operational costs. So we need to build it to a very high standard, which of course is more expensive. It makes it even more challenging. Thank you. Tom Abdelnoor running for district three. Thanks, Cassandra. So as I said, when I moved back to my home state of Vermont and when I moved to Montpelier, I would have loved to have become a homeowner, but I just couldn't afford it. Right. So for now I rent. And the reason I rent is to be to be blunt at the moment, the real estate market, the prices in the real estate market in Montpelier are out of control. So I think in order to address the housing crisis we find ourselves in, we need to be addressing it in a holistic way that looks all the way through the range of housing that we hope to build. It's going to deal with addressing the issue of our unhoused population as you spoke about before Cassandra. It's going to deal with allowing renters to have attaining home ownership in Montpelier be a realistic prospect to build families here to stay here to build their careers here. And we've spoken about some good ideas. There's been some great work done by organizations like Down Street and VHCB and there have been some intriguing projects. There is one thing I think is perhaps an untapped resource that we should look into. So the state of Vermont right now has seen a huge portion of its Montpelier workforce transition to working from home and telecommuting. And that means there are these huge unused spaces of state owned property within the city that we really have to explore utilizing for our own housing needs. And I think this is again another I'm going to sound like a broken record on this. It's an issue that's going to require collaboration between the folks in state government and the folks in city government. And so I think we really need to partner with the state and make sure that it's meeting its responsibility to us as the capital of the state of Vermont and we're using that resource to address this problem. Thank you. I have this fancy chart to make sure I got everybody but I'm not did everybody answer that question. Okay. Okay. Let's see. Okay. So related to housing. I want to talk about the city's purchase of the former Alks Club on country club road. It's now being called the country club road property. And this question comes from Nat Winthrop. He we have several of these questions came from the public who emailed them into us. And he asks and this most just warning it's a multi-part question whether or not you supported last March's bond to purchase the former Alks Club property. Do you favor building affordable housing there and do you see that property having potential to be a legacy for future generations? If so in what sense and if not, do you favor reselling the property? And I realize it's multi-part so I can ask it again as as we go through. So we're going to start with Zach running for district three. If you could I'll ask it again. It's a complicated question. The bottom line is do you favor building affordable housing on the city owned country club road property and and do you see that property having potential to be a legacy for future generations? I see the property being a legacy for future generations. I do not favor reselling the property because it has potential to it, which will again require some collaborative efforts with the community and get there, continue to get their input. I don't think you know I think if housing is is a thing that we can need to do on that property, I would certainly be in favor of it. I'm a little concerned about the rec center being moved up into there because of accessibility, which is a platform in my campaign right now. So I just want to lay that out, but I I'm in favor of, as I said, the legacy and not selling it, selling, not reselling the property. Why would we do that? Thank you. Thank you, Zach. I'm sorry. Palin running for district two, two year seat. Thank you. So after listening to the presentation of this project and also checking the older reports, they, the, you know, project shows us three different plants. And I am more like having both housing and recreation center. So they call it like test, right? Test A, test B, test C. So it sounds more better approach for our needs as a community. But again, in that night, I asked the same question. Do you have any statistic when we build housing houses here? Will we be able to provide affordable housing? Will we be able to solve, you know, housing issue? There was no specific answer for that. That's why first we need to really, really create a very specific budget because every day when we start talking about this project, somehow all the hidden costs may make the budget higher. So we should be careful about it. And for the reselling or keeping it, I will go and listen to district two people because my job as a city councilor and I think all city councilors have a great job to represent our district people's perspective and bring those perspective to the city council. So whatever they want me to bring to city council, I will do that. Yeah, but for me, very clear budget, very specific budget is important to decide to do anything with it. Thank you. Thank you. Sal, running for district two, I did support the purchase of the Elks Club property. Although I must say that at the time I was thinking of it mainly as a site for recreation, which is how it was initially presented. My understanding was that the rec committee was kind of at its wit's end trying to find an alternative. The Elks Club was perfect because of the open space, the existing building and so on. When housing was added to it, it significantly complicated the process and we're now involved in a planning process that is likely to take quite some time, but I think we absolutely need to do that. What worries me, though, is that we need housing soon and I don't think we're going to get it soon at the Elks Club no matter what our plan is. Infrastructure has to be built long before we can break around on a house. I'm worried that we will compromise funds that we need to take care of infrastructure and housing that's available in other places such as downtown and some of the other projects that have been suggested. That's a big concern of mine and I worry that people think that we have a sort of miracle solution for housing on that property. It can be a legacy but it's going to take a long time for that to happen. Thank you. Tom, running for District 3. Thanks, Cassandra. I think the question within it contains something that I think is an important thing for us all to consider when we're thinking about this issue. It said regardless of your position, right, I think there are a huge diversity of views that have been on this issue from people throughout the community and people felt very strongly about it at the time. I think also though that we are where we are now, we do own the land and I think it's now time to make the best of it. I will say with regard to recreation, I do think that pouring up to three million dollars into an antiquated rec facility is not the way to go. I think we should look for other uses for that space and see how we can best address recreation at this property. And I do think that it's essential that we, in any housing that goes on there, are presenting a group of housing projects that are of mixed income, right? So we're having rental properties, we're having condominiums, we're having a range of housing options that are available and anything we do there. And I don't think that the Country Club Road property is the silver bullet to addressing our needs with housing. I don't think any one project will be, but I do think that it's very possible that it could be a key component of a broader strategy moving forward using all of these different strategies that we've talked about so far. So I think we need to make the best of it now that we have it. Thank you. Okay, Tim. Yes, so the Country Club Road property is like with Sal, one of the reasons I decided to run for City Council. It's an interesting process to watch. It wasn't a priority for the community, but it's come in now. We own it. It bumped ahead of a few other things, it seems. And it's a neat challenge. I think it's a property that it's a beautiful property. It's an amazing asset. It will be a legacy for Montpelier without any doubt. The opportunity to create housing there I think is one we can't miss. It's a big piece of land. There's plenty of room for recreation and for housing there. The key is we haven't done our homework yet. Usually in this process it would have happened sooner. People would have done the engineering, done assessments of what's it going to take to get the utilities there. Is this streak going to handle housing or just general uses? How much traffic will Country Club Road take? Or do we have to make other accommodations? So there's a lot to know that we don't know yet. And watching the process happening seems a little bit early without having that data to give kind of guard rails for what needs to happen. Montpelier also needs to do master planning and that's evident with this Country Club process. So I'd like to talk more about that later. Thanks. Thank you. So this is maybe a good segue to talk about infrastructure a little bit. Tom, you mentioned School Street which was the site of one of several water main breaks in the past year. I think everyone here is probably aware there's the city has a 50 year plan where it's gradually increasing water and sewer rates to help fund replacement of water mains. Should the city spend more in the future than it has been up till now on replacing water main pipes and street repairs? And this question we're going to start with Palin. Thank you. If our budget allows yes, definitely. Because it is the most important need of our town. That's why we have to make it our priority. But again when as a city we decide our annual budget there are so many things we have to consider as a community and we should make infrastructure one of the top issues, then plan other issues accordingly. Because every time whoever I talk to they always tell the same thing. Our streets, potholes and a couple of times I raised this request at the city council to please say this when our streets be repaired how can I learn, you know, is there any plan that I can find out? Yeah, it is our one maybe for a long time only a priority. Thank you. Thank you. Sal, running for district two. I think if we can afford to, yes we should try to catch up. I'm not sure exactly how it happened or even exactly what happened, but we seem to have fallen behind on the infrastructure plan. I think the pandemic had something to do with it and I think even though the ARPA money we used ARPA money to replace to replace that we lost a year or more just of activity that we haven't been able to make up but you know it's a problem that I've heard from almost everybody I've talked to. I mean you know I live on McKinley so I make that crazy crack back turn up from Barry Street up onto Sibley a couple of times a day and there's a pothole there the size of a beach ball right where my right front tire hits. That's the kind of thing that when somebody encounters that every day they don't care. They just want the road fixed. So we reached a point where I mean we're not yet at torches and pitchforks but people are upset about the infrastructure and I think we need to do reshuffle things if we have to to find a way to fix the worst of it and then let people know what the long-term plan is so they can be patient about it. Thank you. Tom I think we're going to be running for district three. Thanks so much Cassandra. As you said earlier as somebody who lives on School Street this is an issue that quite literally hits close to home and I would just say I think an essential part of addressing our infrastructure needs has got to be that we have got to stop playing catch-up right. I think we are going to be throwing good money after bad if we are not making a significant investment constantly responding to one crisis after another. I think a component of that too is going to be that although we have unlimited goodwill to address these issues and we have a certain budget amount that's there to address these issues part of it is making sure that we have the staff to address these issues. Folks will know that the contract has recently been reopened there but I think we've got to make sure that the city of Montpelier when it comes to recruiting folks skilled folks we're going to be able to do this work has to be an employer of choice because we are not going to be able to recruit the folks we need to address our infrastructure issues to address public safety unless we are a competitive employer. I will say very quickly too because I see I am running out of time my role model in terms of addressing municipal government issues when it comes to infrastructure is my old boss Cory Booker. He became famous for when folks said to him mayor there is a pothole on my street it's been here for three weeks he would call a truck and he and the truck would go down and they'd fill the pothole that's the level of responsiveness that I aspire to because we have these conversations again and again about infrastructure but we don't always see the follow through that's not going to be my approach thank you Tim running for district 3 there's going to be Zachari right alright so infrastructure it is it's the topic everywhere we go in Montpelier and it was actually really great at the mayoral forum a few minutes ago hearing Jack McCullough talk about the water treatment plant bond coming up soon and the funds that are currently being used to pay that bond will be available for more infrastructure projects coming up shortly that was really great news to me nice to learn that but I think we do need to do more infrastructure investment we do have an amazing public works team and I think we certainly don't have to have the staff on board to do all these projects we can hire contractors and our public works people can oversee that much like the school street project when they did the water line this winter they brought in a private contractor but I think there's just so much to do we need to plan and we need to work smart with this I know an example a friend of mine said he was actually talking to the guys in the hole this winter with the water line replacing this little piece of pipe and one of the people working on it said yeah for what it's costing to replace this little couple foot piece of pipe we could probably have replaced it from here all the way to the corner but when we're doing these emergency repairs all the time we're paying premium prices and it's not the best value so having a good plan and getting ahead of it's important thank you sack alright so what do you what do people value let's get down to it we're going to have to invest in this because if we don't invest in it for each one of these pressure issues or broken pipes we're going to be paying for it in the end we need to invest and I will say this and I will also ask if Cory Booker can come and put a little patch on school avenue big patch it's exactly that it's a patch it's not a potholes or potholes this is really about investment in this city and I think we can all agree with it and I'm ready to go with it thank you thank you Zach I'm going to go back to a budget question because when we talk about infrastructure we're talking about how it's going to be funded and ultimately a lot of that funding comes from the citizens so the city pulled citizens in an online survey this year prior to its budget process and found that more than half of the respondents do not support raising taxes and there was another 25% from a different question that also want to see some city departments being cut comments from the survey and there was I went through every single one of them and read them all and there was I can't remember I won't say the number but comments from the survey spoke about how people are hurting financially and saying they cannot take more increases in property taxes there was a person recently who voted who posted on front porch forum that she described herself as quote 77 years old retired lived here for 45 years never was rich not rich now the yearly increases in Montpelier are getting really difficult I'm sure you've all heard that given all of that information will you work toward developing city budgets that contain or reduce property taxes given that there's also a pressing infrastructure needs so I realize that's a little bit of a repeat of our first question but I really want to get to this question of affordability for taxpayers in town and we're going to start with Palin again for this one so if we talk about affordability we cannot keep increasing the property tax because I'm a like a salary person right my salary my annual income doesn't go up that much so I understand and I again when I talk to people I hear this all the time we need to find other funds my suggestion would be focus on developing economic opportunities because again the same report it's talk about economics and livelihood of Montpelier it says Montpelier is a great place for green jobs and creative economy so we have lots of different committees city committee is as far as I know there is none about economic development we have Montpelier alive but not a city committee so we don't work with experts right maybe one way not to increase property tax but find other ways to support that revenue might be economic development of our city thank you Zach want to raise taxes any more than I think that's a stretch I think we have to do a couple things that we're not going to like doing well one thing we like to do I think and that's out of the box thinking we're going to have to look for other things to other ways of funding and we need to also make some difficult choices we can't have it all I'm sorry to say that it's really going to get down to this because it's not nice when the tax go up but these things cost money so you're going to see me say no more raise taxes if we can help it thank you thank you Zach Tim yeah the property tax or the general income and expense question for the whole city is it's always a balancing act and finding that balance is the toughest job for the city council it seems like my player voters have been very generous for a long time and tend to vote yes and trust their council and what's put before them so I think it's incumbent on the council to really do the job and realize that things change and this is an old organization and it's one of those things where it's okay to occasionally review it and say are we doing things the best way we can is this structured the best way can to provide the services we need to our taxpayers at a price they can afford and if we need to make adjustments in terms of staffing and reallotments or moving things around we need that flexibility as a council and with the management team so I do think it's a key thing we've got to get under control here and it's a big challenge but we can do it thank you Tom Thanks Cassandra I just want to start by saying that for folks like the person who submitted this question seniors who are wondering are they going to be able to stay in their homes young folks who are going to say is this a place I can make a home for myself or am I going to have to leave this community those voices those concerns are the primary reason I am running to be on the city council we cannot fail these city residents it's got to be at the core of everything we're thinking about when it comes to addressing the affordability crisis that we find ourselves in I will be privileging those folks voices every day that's that's my sort of guiding star I will say that in order to get our hands around keeping property taxes lower in order to get a hold on this affordability crisis as I said before we absolutely have to grow our housing stock right so the impact is not falling so intensely on each individual resident right now we've got to share this more broadly and we've got to go our housing sector that all of these questions are interrelated we're just talking about before and it's a key factor in this question as well I'll just say as well this is another area where Montpelier cannot be going it alone we cannot just have all of this burden falling on the city the state needs to take an active hand they need to get involved and they need to help us address this crisis and I'll tell you that's going to be my mindset I'm taking when I'm trying to figure out how to make sure we're keeping Montpelier affordable for everyone thank you Sal I have no quarrel with anything anybody has said here I would add that I think the economic development side of things is important and I think one key to that is something we haven't talked about but child care is important to that I happen to be involved in an application process with national life for a grant and one of the reasons one of the things they were very interested in was child care because they normally have 800 employees and they only have 700 and they cannot attract the other 100 because there's no place to live and there's no child care unless we solve all of these problems together even in a small way to start we're going to get nowhere there's too much interrelation among all of these things that we need to do so it's a zero budgeting process I think budgeting to inflation doesn't really cut it not everybody's paycheck goes up every year the way inflation goes up so we've got to look I know the council looks hard at the budget we have to look harder and the decisions are difficult I think they're going to be even more difficult but unless we make those the right choices nothing's going to change I think we're within a half an hour of finishing the forum did we have any new questions from the audience? I have a couple that we didn't get to in the mayoral forum that I thought I would bring up now so this is a question that is about housing so it's related to what we were just talking about I'm going to say how the person wrote it and I think we need to clarify would you consider dedicating most or all of new housing to people working in the city or moving from other parts of Vermont and I believe the person who asked the question meant that as opposed to prioritizing people moving from out of state so would you consider dedicating most or all of new housing to people who are already working in the city or moving from within Vermont I think I don't know if I'm getting the question asker is in the room am I getting at your meaning so and we'll start with Zach with this question well I certainly would be open to looking at that but given that I don't have much information to go on here right now I don't have a real clear answer to it but you can bet that I would collaborate with others because this isn't about me this is about you the citizen of Montpelier so my answer may not sound clear but believe me we can we'll collaborate and figure it out thank you thank you Zach Palin it's a good question and I think we should start providing enough housing to our community members first then we are a very welcoming community I know it's from my personal experience so we can move to incoming people like people who live in the city or coming from other places to our state then maybe we can create two or three stage then about this but we should first solve our community issues thank you about housing thanks Sal I think it's a great idea I don't know if it's legal that was my question to do that so that would be the first step find out if it's legal but you know if it isn't sure there are other ways to get at the issue you can do it in reverse I suppose you can look at second homes and Airbnb type stuff you can regulate that in a way that might make it more attractive or let's say less attractive for people who aren't living or working in the city but I think it certainly raises the issue of workforce housing I mean I think people who work in the city ought to be able to live in the city there are lots of cities across the country you know we're not the only city that has this problem a lot of cities are wrestling with the fact that they're service pros and can't afford to live in town that should be corrected in any way that we can do it thank you Tom Thanks Cassandra I really appreciate the question I think I'm going to answer it in a bit of a roundabout way and say that I think that given the current situation we find ourselves in we are already in a situation where we're forced to address the needs of our community right now before we're able to be an attractive option for our folks to relocate to right so if you're somebody who's from out of state if you're somebody who's considering moving to Montpelier you may not you may see the state of our real estate market where the realty prices are out of control where the rental market is a disaster and that may prevent you right then and there from ever being able to make the decision to come and live in Montpelier so I think that's not a place where we can afford to be as a community unless we grow this community and grow it in a way that's providing affordable housing for folks where the burden is always going to be higher on the folks who are here right now so we have to get our hands around this issue if we're even going to be attracting in folks from other places so yes I think we have to be very very concerned with how it is for folks here right now but I also think that if we're going to succeed and grow as a community and get the economic development that we're all talking about here get a revitalized community we can't just look for the folks we have here right now we have to look at folks out of state new Americans growing our refugee population that's here we need to be drawing folks in so I think it's both meeting our needs at home but also being an attractive place for folks out of state thank you Tim it's a good question there are ways to do this if we can make a positive impact doing it I do kind of think about fair housing rules and how far we can go with some restrictions but it would seem like it is legal to have income limits on housing to create a housing with people up to a certain income can live there employers could be contributing to creating housing so if national life Unimutual Vermont Mutual Blue Cross the City of Montpelier wanted to help create some workforce housing they absolutely can do that and give a priority to employees to living there there are ways to do this it's kind of exciting to be funded to work there thank you okay this question this person also in the room Tom is asking about on the ballot that we're all going to be voting on March 7th the city I may be goofing up the language so luckily we have a couple council members here who can help me the city currently has bundled all of the requests from organizations for funding I believe it's into the budget rather than naming them one at a time so the person is asking why is it that when an organization wants money from the city and to be on the ballot why can't they be listed individually I'm not sure if that's a question you've considered the city council they have to petition now so for example Kellogg Hubbard library is listed individually because they petition okay so I'm not I'm not sure if if that's enough of an answer we can go around and if you'd like to answer the question go ahead it might be one of those questions you know more about once you're already on the council I'm happy to take a stab at it Cassandra in general I trust Montpelier voters and I trust them to make good decisions when presented with individual choices and so if there's demand from folks to be able to consider applications for funding one at a time and individually that's something that I would have no problem supporting I think we've talked today about the need to make sure we're adequately making priorities right and I trust voters to do that so folks have a desire to make sure that the funding goes on a case by case issue I would support that so I would also support more individual listing of requests even though it may it may become cumbersome or either that or make the communication clear about the how the funds might be used when they're clumped together in an article which number it is but the one that that includes the money for confluence parks so you know the council voted to postpone that whole project and then there it is in the article as part of the total amount so it's confusing to people I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do it's just there isn't enough explanation as to how that money might be spent and is the 600 for confluence in there or not and what happens if we spend it and it raises a lot of questions that I think are confusing to voters and so an individual item yes or no and you're done I just want to clarify I believe the person is asking about outside organizations not city projects so for example I think the same thing applies so Tim I don't know I think there was a lot of history around this issue and I'm trying to remember it and I'm not remembering but it seems like I know there are some organizations that were part of the city's allowance or allotment for community fund and then they're also on separately in addition to that and it's just a matter of having people under voters understand what they're being asked for and who's asking and are they getting more than one piece of the pie I don't know the answer to why they're not so the allocations are bundled into the community fund and so if somebody wanted to vote for some but not for others they'd have to vote down the whole city budget as opposed to voting one at a time I think that was the background of the question I didn't mean to interrupt you did you have more to okay Zach I would trust the voters on this matter to be able to I don't really I'm not into the bundle because it's it was better to have choice in the it could be cumbersome I hear it but it's also I would want to look at how we communicate that we may be giving two pieces of the pie I agree with Tim it's possible because that's been an issue he is a voter I've struggled with do we give him extra pie here when the others are you know they can go out in petition but it can be difficult as I said I think choice is really important it also kind of gives the community look at what organizations are there providing or asking for the money nonprofits give a bang for their buck for this usually cities have to hire their own services in other states and counties all that thank you Zach Palin I think for the clarification and communication and also inclusion issues individual listings are better if we think about people like me right English is not their first language it will be easier to understand what they are being asked to say yes or no some people like me we are citizens some people like Montpelier just approve that non-citizen so there will be lots of people this year saying yes or no to the articles so it is important for inclusion issues I think to have like very specific clear individual listing and the other I think thank you Diana for telling the rules since we have specific rules and procedure and I think if city council and management agree to do and there is a demand then anything is possible because it is in our charter rules right thank you so we are getting to our last question and then we will end with your closing statements and I am going to read from a question that was sent in by a Montpelier resident named Christian and it was a rather lengthy question so I am going to consolidate it is another housing question and so Christian is asking would you as a city councilor support regulating Airbnb and other vacation rentals by implementing an ordinance for permitting and licensing the types of properties eligible to be used as Airbnb's or vacation rentals as well I am just reading from his question so we may have to rephrase it again as well as what property owners can and cannot do in order to be legally compliant so maybe we can consolidate that and say would you be willing to regulate Airbnb and vacation rentals by creating an ordinance around that and we will start with Tim Airbnb it's amazing how big this is I do think it is something that has evolved recently and at least in the big picture of life recently and I would favor updating our zoning ordinances to take this into account it seems like it should be within our zoning code I don't know that a separate freestanding ordinance is the way I would go with it but obviously would rely on city staff and professional advice on codes but it really feels like it should be part of our zoning thank you Zach at this point I would want to have more discussion with the people who would be involved with this and I would want to hear from the citizenry on this matter I am sure very hurt on them but I would want to hear about this before I would want to take a position again this isn't about me this is about you thank you Kailin like Zach I don't know the details but I understand the request so if it comes to city council it will require collective leadership so as a city council there are like six people we have to discuss we have to learn the details so if it from this is it worth it to regulate rules so that's why I need to know more details about it but I am open if it comes to city council to discuss and learn more then decide accordingly thank you thank you yeah I am also open to discussing it I mean it's it's complicated because I think investors who who have a part of their home that they are renting Airbnb are probably doing it to supplement their income and to take that away or reduce it somehow doesn't help them particularly if they are struggling to pay their taxes to begin with so there may be ways to regulate it for non resident investors who buy a building short term rental is really the question if you have space that can be rented and you are renting it by the week instead of you know by the year or longer term lease that affects our housing situation on the other hand you don't want to penalize homeowners who can use the extra cash so it's an issue worth discussing I would need a lot more information before I came down one side or the other but probably worth discussing if it comes to us, yeah. Thank you, Tom. So I think we are to some degree in our conversation so I'm making this a little bit perhaps more complicated than it needs to be there have been questions from the folks in the room and I'm sure there are people watching right now who are saying didn't we just have a conversation about doing what we can to support folks within the community before we support folks out of state and I think that Airbnb if it's something that brings folks into our community as tourists as people who estimate our economy great but those concerns can't trump those so the folks who are in town right now who don't have an affordable place to live so the answer to what I consider regulating this part of our housing situation in town more than we are right now yes I would I think we have to prioritize the folks in town who do not have an affordable place to live right now. Okay we have come to the time where you can make your closing statements address anything that I didn't ask you and we're going to start with the District 2 candidates again Palin Khan running for a two-year seat unopposed and Sal Alfano running in District 2 for a one-year seat who has an opponent who did not make it here today so we'll start with Palin and then Sal and then we'll move to our District 3 candidates. Again thank you Cassandra, Bridge, Orca Media and Rotary for this opportunity since mid December I'm serving at the City Council and it's very supportive, friendly and great learning experience to me and that's why I want to run again and continue for a two-year term. I will do very basic things listen ask act so I am promising everyone I will keep listening people in my district and other districts too and then bring their issues to the City Council and ask the right questions so they can get more information more clarity and they can hear their voices at the City Council but they are not so I want to make difference to represent 3% of diverse group in Montpelier which was 6% in 2010 census so let's make Montpelier more inclusive Nonsense voting is a great start but have a bad representation so if you vote for me I will represent and work with other City Councilors in a collective way to solve our issues in the community. Thank you. And Sal, running for District 2 one-year seat. Yogi Berra once said that the future ain't what it used to be and I think that's where we find ourselves today we have serious problems in Montpelier then we're not alone they're really national problems I mean just about every city in the country has the kind of issues that we're dealing with but Montpelier is a special place and I think we need to solve our problems in our own particular way to do that we need to listen those of us who may be on the Council to what our constituents are telling us I'm at the moment hearing a lot about infrastructure about housing and frankly about childcare so those are things that we need to solve in the long term but in the short term as well and what worries me about all of this is that so many of these problems have such a long trajectory that I worry that people will lose patients with the solutions which necessarily need to be both short term and long term but one solution for that is just better communication between city government and city residents and there are a number of ways we can do that I love the idea of the listening groups that Bellin is doing I think more individual communication between council members and their constituents would go a long way toward helping that thank you so next we'll hear from the three folks who are running and I'm going to do this in reverse alphabetical order because we started sort of in alphabetical order so Zach alright this isn't about me when I decided to do this this is a decision making process that goes into running this is about you and what you value mom Pylia regardless of who gets affected on March on town meeting day I will be continuing to work with everybody and I think that's really important to understand as we sit here tonight this evening and I'm just thinking about things that maybe Tim is thinking about and how can we do this stuff and but I will represent you and I know you've probably heard this so many times and I will honestly do that I will put my issues aside but I've lived here for 31 32 years and I've seen those years where we felt comfortable and everybody was happening and now we're getting kind of uncomfortable this is going to be a challenging council going forward this isn't going to be the same thing you're going to find we're going to have to make some tough decisions and we need to hear from you more that's why if I'm elected and even now I'm going to host listening sessions with anybody so this is really important we're going to work together and I thank you and I thank you for inviting me here as a write-in and yeah write-ins are cool too thank you very much thank you Zach and thanks for reminding us that you are a write-in candidate people will not see your name on the ballot Tim thank you very much for hosting this forum it's been really great to meet all of you and interact and thanks to the Rotary Club also and Orca for doing two of these now it's one of the few ways voters get to have a sense of who we are and make their decisions so it's great I know I have a lot to learn and stepping into this if I am elected it would be I know I'm going to listen a lot and take it in and participate but not going into this thinking I know all the answers by any stretch the imagination there are some challenges before our community but we have a great community and a lot of really amazing people and I think if we get our priorities on track we can do what we want to do we can start working on our infrastructure issues we really need to create more housing and we can get that happening and we also need to work on some other economic development and build our tax base things like Bar Hill is a great recent example of incredible new investment in the community they brought a lot of people into town it's a really wonderful example of something good we can do and we need to move ahead that way I think there's a lot of exciting things I want to be part of it and if you have questions whether I get elected or not feel free to give me a call thanks thank you Tim and Tom our also candidate for district 3 thanks Cassandra thank you to the bridge orca the rotary everyone for putting this on I think it's been a great forum I'm going to take advantage of your suggestion to discuss an issue that we haven't had a chance to discuss much so far and that is our climate commitment and our environmental commitments in Montpelier I think it's absolutely essential that we follow along with now Senator Watson's proposal to get to 90% renewables by 2030 and I feel really frankly honored to have been endorsed in my candidacy by Senator Watson by Councillor Lauren Hurl by Lieutenant Governor David Suckerman folks who have made a climate environment a priority and I just I think we'd be remiss if we didn't discuss it at today's forum in a little bit more length I'll just say to folks out there who are watching if you are a senior citizen who's wondering whether or not you'll be able to stay in your home because of the affordability crisis in Montpelier I'm your candidate and if you're someone out there who is looking for someone who will take a step toward a progressive, sustainable future for Montpelier I'm your candidate. Thanks. Thank you and thanks to all of you for coming here today and we'll all see you on the ballot in a round town. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thanks to our audience who are in the room here today and to the Montpelier Rotary Club and Orca Media. I just want to close by we're still on the air folks. We're not quite done. I just want to remind our people who are watching that voting is on March 7th 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. in City Hall in Montpelier and if registered voters can get an early ballot you can request that mail-in ballot from the Vermont Secretary of State's My Voter page at mvp.vermont.gov Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.