 So good afternoon everyone. We're still waiting for one panelist, but in the interest of time, we're gonna start So remembering Dr. King's work in legacy This weekend we as Vermonters should redouble our collective efforts To ensure that a Vermont become increasingly diverse The promise of equal treatment of all persons be honored Vermont has a long history of providing leadership in Pursuing full civil and human rights for each inhabitant of the state the words of Mr. Robert Appel Who is going to be facilitating? This panel today, I would like to welcome him and I would like to welcome our wonderful panelists that you're going to be hearing from Mr. Appel is going to introduce the panelist and by the way, he may not recall but this These were his words written in the Burlington Free Press in 2007 Mr. Appel, it's a pleasure to welcome you and a panelist. It's a pleasure to welcome you a warm Welcome on a cold Vermont afternoon to all of you and to you the faithful audience. Thank you So I said that, huh? I believe it that the phrase To pursue the full enjoyment of all civil and human rights for Inhabitants of the state is actually in the enabling the legislation of the Vermont Human Rights Commission Which I was director for about a decade I was telling my new friend Emil here that I I'm a Vermonter by choice. I arrived here in 1970 I live in central Vermont again. I've moved over here for a little bit after I retired from the state in the end of 2012 I'm not going to say a whole lot to begin and then I'll introduce the panel But I do want to acknowledge that this yesterday would have been Dr. King's 94th birthday And if he were still with us, I have to wonder what his take on What it's going on in this country in this city in the state today You know people often say what would Jesus do? I Ask about what would Dr. King do face with the problems we all Live with day in and day out The other thing I wanted to say is that it was 40 years ago that Congress Passed a law that made today a national holiday. It wasn't celebrated till 1986 But for those of us who were old enough to remember that was quite a long hard push led by Stevie Wonder of all people he really Went all out to get this holiday done and then I compared that with Juneteenth that was last year National holiday. So we've come some We have a long way yet to go. I will say one other thing about the holiday becoming a holiday Which was New Hampshire was the last state to Make it a state holiday. So Northern New England has its own history And with that I I Will I will introduce the panel starting at my far left ironically my friend James Duff Lyle who is the executive director of the Vermont chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union Duff will tell you about his organization's work in this regard as well as a Deep commitment to what brings us all here today Like to welcome Kim Carson who I've not met until today Who is now the director of racial equity and inclusion and belonging which is a department of City government It has its ups and downs over the last couple years. I hope it's on its way back up. So welcome Kim Emiliano void a meal is We just met and like to welcome a meal To Vermont. It's been a little haven't met him seven years. He's been here He'll tell you about his work as it relates to dr. King We're still missing Reverend Thomas. Hopefully he will join us because The Reverend has many good things to tell us and to my right is Julia Jules Tordy who is the Director of the civil division of the US Attorney's Office here in Burlington with their focus on civil rights litigation So with that, why don't we go backwards from the introduction in Jules? Have at it Thanks, Robert. It's a pleasure to be here in great company and And with all of you Thinking about what we were asked to speak about kind of the future of civil rights or where civil rights is today I Was actually struck most immediately by its limits And that's a little bit what I want to talk about today or the limits of civil rights law And and what we lose when we see law as the only remedy for for discrimination racism and civil rights violations So I'm a lawyer. I you know have gone through most of my life Thinking that the law was the was the answer and most of my professional career I work for the US Attorney's Office and I coordinate our civil rights program So we enforce federal civil rights laws in Vermont before that I worked at a civil rights firm in New York working with wrongfully convicted individuals So my job these days is a lot of hearing complaints for the public and deciding what box they fit in So is this a hate crime? Is this a civil rights violation or does this fall outside of the scope this fall into a category called? We can't help you. I also do a lot of outreach and education About civil rights about hate crimes and in doing that one of the kind of teaching tools I made up was this pyramid and you know at the top our hate crimes They're really severe But there aren't very many of them and then in the middle is civil rights violations and then at the bottom is that dreaded category again Of the law can't help you And you know you could see the shape of the pyramid. That's the biggest category That is what most of most of the bad stuff that happens to people most of the racism discrimination Bias incidents as we call them. That's where most of the action is and You know in creating this pyramid and we talk about responses, right? The response to hate crimes is a prosecution the response to a civil rights violation is a lawsuit The response to the it doesn't violate the law, but it's still really messed up category Is kind of an open question, you know, I what did I put on the graphic? I put community response And so when we go around and we talk about how we enforce civil rights There's this big bottom category that is it's totally legal. It's still pretty messed up and the answer is a community response I got to tell you when you tell someone that when they call and they tell you what happened to them How they did they were discriminated against how they feel wronged and you tell them that What happened to them is completely in line with the law or if it's not we'd never be able to prove that it wasn't and Their answer is community response It's really unsatisfying. I've not had a single person be satisfied by by that response by that answer that I've given them and You know, I you could have a bunch of different Reactions to that right one reaction. I've heard boring of the Human Rights Commission Say well, that means we need more advocacy, right? We need to bring more things into the scope of what's illegal And you know, I think she's probably right in a lot of ways, but I think there's another way to look at it too, which is we need to we could look at that bottom category and Have more robust community responses so that when you tell somebody the answers a community response that doesn't sound like nothing But I actually think the more powerful thing would be a change of mindset When you tell someone that what happened to them does not break the law Often what they hear is nothing happened to you we see law as the has having a monopoly on Being the arbiter of what is right and wrong what is good and bad what is true and not often We think if you don't have a true civil rights violation a true hate crime Nothing happened to you But people aren't stupid. They know when they've been discriminated against they know when they've been the victim of hate and bias and I think the less that we see laws and civil rights laws the laws that Dedicating my own career to enforcing I think the less we see them as the only important thing the more that we're going to be able to Re-imagine the ways that we can respond to bias and hate And hopefully have more more satisfying responses for people whose Civil rights violations don't actually violate any civil rights law I was you missing that welcoming and thank you all for coming out You are the community and it's great to have you there will be an opportunity for questions after These presentations good afternoon Reverend. Nice to see you If you cast your mind back to dr. King he certainly understood the intersection between community activism and litigation You think about the letter from the Birmingham jail. He definitely saw the legal system as a means to prompt change Given the state of our judiciary today particularly in state courts it becomes more and more challenging What Jules is talking about in terms of criminal prosecution? You have to prove each and every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt and Which is a heavy burden and then when you get the hate crime you got to show that the act The unlawfulness was motivated Basically in a hole on bias and that's a very difficult task because you have to get inside the mind of the perpetrator so In my view and in my experience Coordination between community activism and litigation is key to promoting change And with that, I'm gonna pat. Well, let me let me introduce Reverend Arnold Thomas Welcome to the panel. It's good to be here. Thank you for and sorry. Yeah That's okay, and you're presently a minister in Jericho, and you live in under hill as I recall. That's right So we we introduced from the left to the right and we're working this way. So we're gonna circle back to you Okay, you get the last word. That's fine with me Why don't you go ahead? It's nice to meet you all my name is Emiliano void and I'm I'm an import to Vermont I think it's really interesting for me to be sitting up here today I think this is a reflection of over here humor in the room You need somebody to make somebody else look good and I think my job on the panel is to make everybody else here Look consider really better. I don't consider myself an activist by any means Certainly, it's an honor and a privilege to be sitting up here and having the opportunity to have a conversation with you folks But I don't consider myself like I said an activist. I'm a pragmatist I tried to solve real issues with with real solutions and the entire guiding principle of our organization I run a racial equity consulting firm right here in Burlington and the entire premise of what it is that we try to do is we try To build systemic solutions to correspond and address to systemic issues and most notably the one that we chase Certainly systemic inequities, but systemic racism and most notably anti-black racism So in the work that we look to do on our side of the fence That's really what it is that we bring to the table and a whole different arm of the work that we have been fortunate enough to do here Has been community organizing as well And and I have very selfishly considered that a reflection of my own personal desires This place has become a place that has been very very special to me and very selfishly I want to share it with as many folks that look like me Come from a different lived experience and might be very different from the majority demographic that occupies this base And we try to do that through community-based events like the black experience where last year We were super fortunate to have the city really open up its arms and welcome us into the Juneteenth celebration It was unbelievable for us to be a part of that and we're thrilled thrilled thrilled to be able to bring it back And and hopefully on an annual basis here into the month of February For us it seemed like there was a real missed opportunity For celebration and uplifting of black and brown folks when we represent less than two percent of the demographic that occupies This place I think Burlington and Vermont as a whole has a ton of good intention But I feel like a lot of it and certainly this is my perspective is is in word and less in action And so we felt that there was an opportunity in a real real gap in February Particularly as we highlight black the black history month for us to have a celebratory event that allowed us to shine a light on What often seems like communities that are off to the side and marginalized and then afterthought particularly black communities To create really a platform for black voices to to be elevated celebrated and hurt create an opportunity for the greater community to have Interaction with them a demographic that they may not in different instances and we're really excited to be able to bring Angela Davis back you want to talk about Social activists and real people doing real work. Dr. King is in that conversation I consider Dr. Davis in that conversation as well And so we're thrilled to be able to create an opportunity right here where we live to bring world-class talent to Burlington, Vermont But that's not the only talent that's here and that's available And so we're really really intentional about creating an opportunity for us to shine a light on black and brown voices here black and brown talent And really build an opportunity to bridge into the community in a larger respect through through the medium of celebration So again, I'm not really sure What we were thinking dr. Brown and put me up here But I'm thrilled and greatly honored to be sitting shoulder-to-shoulder with folks I do unbelievable work in the community every day and and I consider the work We do our selfish reflection of how it is that we have come to love and appreciate this place and try to share that with More folks that maybe are less fortunate than what I've been. So, thank you everyone. I Was also remiss in that thank you Patrick Brown for organizing this weekend in conjunction with folks from the city In terms of bringing world-class leaders to speak to this community Patrick is incredible in bringing Big names who have big messages to people here. I'm sorry. I didn't get to yesterday's event, but others didn't I'm sure it was great so With that Kim your turn Thank you, and thank you for welcoming me. I've been getting welcome. I think for the last month So I really appreciate it from the community. My name is Kim Carson I actually have been here director of race equity inclusion for the city of Burlington a new transplant to Burlington from Iowa and so I've been here about a month. So most of my time here has been spent doing a lot of reflecting So as I said before my time has been here kind of reflecting and connecting and Working on building community and coalition as I not only Learn about Burlington, but also become a Burlington resident with me and my family. I want to reflect as we think about Dr. Martin Luther King as well as Civil rights is to really reflect on what that means prior to coming to this wonderful city I spent about Gosh close to 20 years either being adjacent to or working with the Iowa judicial branch and At the end in a more leadership role and so one of the things that I Think it's a little different with working at the judicial branch is that you are supposed to be the neutral arbitrator So in learning and understanding civil rights and how they impact people It was my goal to be neutral and so one of the things I don't reflect on with Emiliano was talking about was actually moving away from just the noun of civil rights The noun of racism the noun of these things and naming those and really shifting to the verb the action behind it Not just talking about it, but really utilizing my office in an effort to actually mobilize The community's voices as I move into becoming the director of this amazing department and city The first thing I want to do is work with my staff in the community to decide how we were going to start to move forward I was thinking also as I was listening to the panel about reflecting on Dr. Martin Luther King jr. Being 93 and What would what would Martin do and I thought I get that every day surrounded by Black women that supported the movement and my family members and so for me It's a little easier to think about what would Martin do because I'm propped up by women and people from the civil rights movement Every day that are part of my family and my extended family So I just have to look left right behind me and in front of me to to ask those questions. And so I think I'm uniquely Privileged to live a life that I did have those people surrounding me And so every day what I actually reflect on most importantly is that my experience is not much different than theirs And what my goal is to make my experience different from my children and the children that I see around me in this community So action is very important to me and then lastly I see my job and my role at the city of Burlington is to really focus on Policy procedure, but most importantly practice. I would say that In my research over time what I noticed as I was studying the legislative history of civil rights as I did my job at the Judicial branches from the 1700s to the civil rights and on the things that we've been fighting for have been Relatively the same so if you spend some time reading those legislation it hasn't changed much What has changed is our mechanism to litigate so I kind of differ in our opinion about civil rights and how we have to go About it. I do not think there's ever been an issue in America being able to provide due process I think there's been an issue of providing due process for people that weren't white And so my goals as I said here is to look at those gaps and be a person that does not create a bridge But actually minds the gaps and doesn't things that we need to do to the things that happen to people that no one's paying attention to Sometimes and to make sure that due process and the policies and procedures and practices that we do line up with the Expectations and the values that we say that we hold true not only as Americans, but as Vermonters So being here such a short time I don't have a lot to say I can't really reflect on the work as much because I haven't been as much a part of The work here, but I definitely have the appetite for it. And so I just thank you and I appreciate you the warm welcome I've gotten so far Allow me to observe that I was also a vastly predominantly white state is it not Absolutely, that's probably third behind me in Vermont. I would absolutely say so. So so Welcome to this environment You have some experience in being a minority minority Oh, I have a loud voice, which is great. Yeah, thank you. Thank you Thanks Robert. Hi everyone James Lyle, I'm the executive director at the ACLU of Vermont folks who aren't familiar with our organization the ACLU Defends and advances civil rights civil liberties constitutional rights of everyone in Vermont And with particular attention to people who have been denied the full protections of those rights historically We do that through litigation policy advocacy public education community engagement And we do that in Montpelier is where we're based in Vermont so Reflecting on this day a few thoughts and one I think it's important just to remember and reflecting on the day and the man behind it always is that Dr. King was Had a deep and sustained critique of American society that goes deeper and broader than I think the Sanitized version of the man that we were often given on this day And I think it's always worth remembering if you look to his words and his actions and his beliefs He had a deep and sustained critique of American militarism American capitalism and economic injustice in this country as well as of course racism and systemic racism and racial injustice And if you again if you look to his words and his actions if you read the history For example Taylor branches parting the waters trilogy It's important to remember that Dr. King was an activist. He was a leader and in many ways He was a radical reformer And so thinking about what he would make of the world today or this state today or this city today, I Think a lot of the critiques and concerns that he raised in his own time Would still strike him to this day Not to say that progress has not been made but when you look to measures of racial injustice in Housing health care education criminal justice Essentially any measure of societal well-being that you want There are still major disparities in this community in this state and in this country Economic injustice is another Area where I think he would recognize that the community that our communities are really struggling right now When you look to housing insecurity a mental health care crisis substance abuse disorder and record opioid deaths all things that have been exacerbated by a global pandemic Our communities are really struggling and I think dr. King would not lose sight of that would not be unaware of that so Another thing that I've been reflecting on Is the the notion of backlash the concept of backlash and this was something that I don't know if the phrase was first coined in the 50s and 60s during the civil rights movement But it certainly existed back then it was Nina Simone's backlash blues is one example the great Nina Simone sang about this and There was a backlash to the progress that the people in the civil rights movement made that dr. King made in his lifetime on Voting rights on racial justice on economic justice and that backlash continues to this day And we see it in the conservative rollback of civil rights protections. We see it in attacks at the state level at the federal level we see it in Supreme Court decisions rolling back voting rights and soon to roll back affirmative action protections and so forth More immediately I've been thinking about the concept of backlash in and reflecting on the black lives matter movement and Sort of the last two to three years in this country thinking about civil rights and racial justice and how much progress we were making and are making To advance racial justice in this community in the state and in this country And I think a lot of that really accelerated In part due to the actions and the work of people in this community in and supporting the black lives matter movement And I think while that work continues and that progress continues There is also a backlash to it that we are seeing that I am seeing in my work at the ACLU in our work to advance For example criminal justice reforms police accountability reforms to advance racial economic justice in our communities we are seeing an institutional backlash to the progress that has been made and to the demands for increased accountability and oversight in law enforcement and Increased attention to the need to invest in our communities over policing in prisons and that backlash is You can see it in the state house where we are experiencing We're witnessing proposals to expand criminal penalties and periods of incarceration We are seeing it in proposals to expand the state prison population At a cost of nine hundred thousand dollars a bed There are people working right now on proposals to double the size and capacity of the women's prison in this state At a time when we're talking about cutting housing cutting mental health care services or at best level funding them And not investing in the root causes of the challenges facing our communities today So I think about what would dr. King think of that on which side of that that debate would he be on and I think he would be on the side of The vast majority of Vermonters who we have seen Over the past several years are adamant that they want the state and its public officials to invest in solutions to invest in Communities to support communities that are struggling now at more than in recent years again because of the impacts of the pandemic And I think he would continue to call for those investments over The prioritization of policing and prison strategies that we have seen for decades Not only do not work not only waste huge amounts of money, but disproportionately target black people People of color in our communities people at the economic margins of our society And do not make our communities more just more safe or more fair and so I Guess to end on a more positive note This month in addition to celebrating this day we're we're marking the fifth anniversary of our smart justice for month campaign and That campaign set out five years ago to cut the state prison population by at least 50% and Combat the racial disparities that pervade our criminal legal system remind us some of the worst Disparities in his criminal legal system of any state in the country and when we set out five years ago on this journey, we were told by some that those goals were completely unrealistic and not reasonable and And And the Vermont had already done all it could to make its criminal legal system more fair and more just and the only people left In prison were the worst of the worst Five years later. We've seen Vermont's prison population sink to 40 percent below its peak two decades ago We've reduced the prison population by more than 20 percent in the last three to four years alone through smarter Policy reforms by using data and evidence and thinking about What works when we've seen that happen at the local level? We've seen people like Chittenden County State Attorney Sarah George advance those policies We've seen legislators increasingly embrace those policy reforms And we have seen community members across the state overwhelmingly support those kinds of smart justice reforms, so we are making progress and I think the challenge right now is to Be aware that there is a backlash to that progress and there are defenders of the status quo who are deeply invested in seeing those efforts fail and It is really important the last thing I'll say is for people who do care about these issues and do want to See their values enacted in these state policies to engage in these issues If your state legislators if your local officials are only hearing from defenders of the status quo The outcomes are gonna be a lot different than if they're hearing from you I'll stop there Just to put a little perspective of longer range when I started in legal work in 1977 as an investigator in a public defender's office there are 400 Secure beds for my prisons. There were 10 beds for women Down at Chittenden Regional 10 beds. They got a size 220. I don't know what the number is now was 160 140 something like that You know, we've certainly headed in the wrong direction. I know it's coming down, but it's coming down because of folks like you and us pushing our policy makers and Our prosecutors and I take my hat off to Sarah over and over again as being rational and data driven That's what's gonna take to continue to bend those curbs. So The other thing I would say and I think somebody up here already said it Dr. King was working on Poor people's March on Washington and he diverted his work on organizing that for this Summer of 1968 to go to Memphis and support a strike by Sanitation workers and that's where he was killed, of course. There's been efforts to revitalize poor people's March And I think there's another effort coming up again this year Maybe Reverend Thomas can speak a little bit about that if he's aware of those activities The other thing I would say is Dr. King became more and more dangerous to the establishment as he made the connections between what he called the three-headed monster Racism consumerism and militarism and think about where we are today Reverend Thank you. Thank you Robert My name is Arnold Thomas Arnold is door Thomas. I'm the pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Jericho, Vermont I've been in Vermont for over 22 years. I came to Vermont as the first statewide executive black statewide executive religious executive of Overseeing the United Church of Christ in Vermont which at that time had around 150 Congregations throughout the state so it gave me an opportunity to not only Visit the many churches in this state, but also to familiarize myself with the people of this state And as I said, I've been here for well over 22 years spent part of that 22 years commuting back and forth from New York City where I served as minister of Education ecumenical and interfaith relations at the Riverside Church and then another three years as senior minister to a Rather affluent predominantly white congregation in southwestern, Connecticut one of the things that consume my attention as a vermonter is a Public religion research Institute survey which about a decade ago revealed that 75% of white Americans have no Meaningful relations with people of color 75% and That percentage is only slightly changed in the last decade In Vermont you can magnify that that percentage to the umpteenth degree In a state where or any state where you have an overwhelmingly white population No matter how progressive it may seem on the outside you will find in real life Experiences people of color being Targeted Oppressed in many in many ways in many facets and many experiences in many dimensions and often those experiences go unreported because black and other people of color in this state feel that the mechanisms of Responding to their situation are very few and far between and and very limited and Ineffective so a lot of those reports remain quiet Shared only by other people of color to and with other people of color so that is an item that has continued to Feel my attention my time and my efforts as a resident of the state I'm also reminded of who other things about the time of this of This survey by the public religion Institute Chris Rock had a comedy skit in which he He said that most of his black friends had a number of white friends But most of his white friends had only one black friend And about that time also you probably remember a Saturday night live skit in which a bunch of white nationalists Were advocating a mood to a place where all the people are white and raised produce and Sell them to other white people where the leaves change color, but the people never do and One of the members of that gathering raised his hand and said I think you're talking about Vermont well sometimes that which is funny is Covering up a blatant truth while Vermont has slightly increased over the past 10 years in population from Roughly about 625,000 people to 647,000 people The white population the white demographics of this state has decreased While the people of color population including black Hispanics By racial communities have increased Still that number is Hampered by the fact that the labor force in this in this state is really crippled The cost of housing the cost of living in Vermont is so is so enormous that it it it it Disables the the chances of of building a strong labor force in this state so we have we have an enormous amount of of Things to do if we're going to overcome those many obstacles One of the things I I did when I returned to Vermont was Establish a monthly broadcast right now as a webinar it started out as racism in America and it now goes by the name of the talk Vermont which Provides Vermonters and also people in many parts of New England and in some cases other parts of the of the nation To hear from people of color here in Vermont mostly black But other people of color and other marginalized Communities to share their experiences of what it is like to be a resident of this state both the positive and the negative but emphasizing the challenges that they face and if any of you are interested in in participating either as a viewer as a as as a member of the audience or as a participant as a panelist In this in this webinar, please let me know. I'd like to have you participate. There are several other programs and topics that we would like to address including Qualified immunity Criminal justice system So many other topics that affects the lives of people of color in this state that we have addressed over the past Three years since this program has been up and running and we have still yet to to touch base on So I hope that you're interested. I hope that you will continue to raise your concerns and awareness not not only as people of color, but as allies to this cause Robert Robert Appel and I are part of an effort to to address the the the the problems of housing and land That has been denied poor people and people of color in this state And so there's an enormous heel that we all need to climb and addressing some of the problems that affect us and again The more people who are involved and who are aware of the problems especially people of color The more involved you are the more people will listen and And we will continue to fight the good fight. Thank you So now it's your turn I Don't quite know. There's this thing here, which is a microphone. I don't know if somebody's running this around to take questions This microphone is available. Okay, so if you'll come up and ask your question and Be very brief question or comment For the panelists in general So please come up and you ask your question. Thank you And I want to thank the panelists for not requiring Paul to ring this cowbell Good work everybody. Thank you. It is so refreshing to see Everyone here in this day I lived in Warren for 12 years Lived in Burlington for two years. I just moved back a week and a half ago I worked in software here and I sued my company for discrimination and didn't win But I did get my severance Because of that experience I wanted to get rid of co-workers So I became a truck driver. I Could have been a plumber electrician a masseuse Anything I could do by myself I moved back after six years of being on the road because Vermont Department of Labor said You got to get experience so leave and come back So after 600,000 miles safely delivering consumer goods all over the country I'm back and I have a home daily position that I start Tuesday and It's just great to see you all and I'm really really encouraged By what I see and the amount of people of color that have moved into the state Since I've been going. Thank you Yes, what's your new occupation truck driver, but I'm home daily instead of over the road Okay, so so local deliveries Yeah from from from St. Albans to White River Junction, but like I said, I start Tuesday. I'm not really sure But also in that process of absorbing Vermont I'm a poet and I wrote two spoken word two poetry books based off of what I was feeling and Also, I'm a spoken word artist and so I'm just coming back to Be a part of the community. I want community and this is the community that I want to be a part of Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, and thanks for sharing your art Keep working. That was a comment Hello Hi there. Thank you for your work in your comments. This is MLK's day, right? What it also speaks to is the power of the faith community My question is from your perspective, what role do you see as both the responsibility and Action that the faith community in Vermont in particular Can be mobilized to help make a difference in each one of the categories that we've spoken to Context it was New England It was the congregational church that meant forth went forth to help establish Colleges and universities Especially for people of African-American descent likes Indians as well secondly there is a unsaid 30 plus percent of Monterers who push back against the very notion of the faith community being involved Hypocritically if I can say that we find that Politicians who make the laws and the policies that affect all of us Swear in by putting their name or their hands on the Bible Someone was may remember even the 45th president had his Bible upside down, but he had the Bible So I'm curious again. What do you see because if you really look at it many of the folk in Montpelier and other places Sit in the pews of churches and they feel real good for that one hour and Then they on Monday morning. They start their dance with the devil So I'm curious to know What do you see what would be your charge to the body of? 600,000 plus Thank you I feel inclined to answer that question I Came to Vermont as I mentioned as the head of the Vermont United Church of Christ Which is also known as the congregational churches in the state and one of the first items I had to address when I came to the state is at the time Vermont was was considering the civil unions issue and I Advocated actually that civil unions was not enough. We should advocate for same-sex marriage Because something by another name would not allow people to be treated equally so So my denomination actually pushed forward for same-sex marriage and Only in 2009 several years later that that state actually endorsed that that direction. I think that I Acknowledge that that Vermont is considered the least Consider the least Has a least number of people involved in institutional religion. I think my microphone is not is probably too loud least number of people involved in institutional religion, but I think that's partly because that the church the churches and faith communities as a whole have Projected a two-faced kind of attitude towards towards this relation to the rest of the world Those when I was advocating for same-sex unions There was also a large number of people Expressing their faith in opposition to what I was doing We need to also acknowledge that That in the early days of the state of this state the history of the state The the Episcopal leader of the state who went on to become the presiding bishop of the Episcopal church was strongly opposed to Equality among among blacks and whites never thought and was strongly opposed to blacks having equal equal status with whites and proposed for Blacks to be shipped off to Liberia and away from and away from America This was not just held by the Episcopal bishop of the state, but by leading congregational leaders and other Religious leaders at the time when Frederick Douglass came to Vermont to speak in behalf of Abolition of slavery he was met by hostile crowds in every community he he he he addressed in Vermont and so Vermont may have came into the may have come into the state as a so-called free Free state, but in actuality the attitudes of the people were such where even though they may have verbally Opposed slavery. They also verbally and outspokenly opposed equality between blacks and and whites And so that history and that legacy continues to influence and I think the attitude not only of this country But of all also in many ways this state we see a rising Rising Awareness of white hostility towards black people in the state In which we have to be we have to acknowledge and as a church and as faith Communities we have to rise up against and so that that is to continuing that is to continuing I think Efforts on the part of people of all faith traditions and people of just a common good to try and and prevent from happening in this state Hands for action over hands for prayer Fundamentally, I think there's a and this is this is my opinion There's an entire part of of the experience that I've lived in Burlington and in Vermont as a whole where Words considerably outpace action. I think the problem is not limited to Institutions of faith. I think it happens everywhere. I run into community leaders that speak about Being a part of the change and allyship as an action And it is only true in words in certain settings in circumsert certain circumstances I think certainly the institutions of faith have responsibility. I think our educational institutions also bear that responsibility I think there's a need for a social contract that is reflective of greater than you know Consideration towards the public and really our communities than just a financial transaction in those spaces I think in order to be honest about fighting it an issue that is at this size and scale I think we need multiple institutions across the board including faith-based institutions To talk maybe less about being a part of the solution and start doing more Actively and I think one of the things that's often lost is when we talk and in particular I think of days like today We we have these heroes these social justice and social activists heroes these people that in my opinion It would be hard to measure ourselves individually against on any day on our best days and certainly our worst It does not take heroes for change. It takes a regular people doing small incremental different actions on a habitual Basis and I think fundamentally there is this always looking for this solution to come from a greater Some of our actions, but individually This is the kind of space and state that if we all turn it up a little less on the vocal side and more on the acting side Big change can happen here in small windows So certainly when I come back to all of these conversations about where does responsibility line? What part do we play every single person in this room today gets to do something different when they leave? Your choice is whether you do that or not fundamentally. I think again hands for action over hands for prayer Do you want to speak to that so somebody respond? I was gonna respond to spot institutions as a whole Very much echoing. I'm Eliano. I whether it's faith-based Any institution has never really served black people will so I always lean into the harm If we're just leaning on the faith-based community that they've done to black people as a whole historically So I don't always lean into that, but I do think they do have to do some work I think also the bigger picture, especially in Vermont is really reckoning with your an honest accurate understanding of your history we talk about slavery and not wanting slavery and understanding that the move to not have slavery in Vermont as well as other northern places was not about slavery in itself and the freedom of humanity of black people was actually expansion of Plantation slavery and people wanted to be able to have small farms So I think as we look at agrarian society and what that means and how it came to be and the structure of what that means in a Community and a space that really honors that here I hear a lot farm to table and things of that nature is understanding the history behind that from an Institutional lens that it was not about the humanization at any point of the black body It was about not spreading These plantation farms, so I think really having a reckoning with your history With our history as not just for monitors, but northerners And Americans that we need to write the wrong of the telling of the story And that only comes when the voices that know the story are allowed to be I just came from a community where we are Actively making sure that those stories are not told and it becomes statutory illegally illegal to To talk about things from the lens of the people that suffered the most and so if I can lean in with one thing is even as we We bring these institutions in we need to bring the voices that understand the harm at a level That you couldn't imagine to start to translate and also prescribe the change that we seek to find Sandy is that you Can't see so well with the lights, but you look familiar No kidding My name is Sandy Barrett. I'm an attorney in this community. I've been there I have been an attorney here for a very long time And I want to draw your attention to another problem that I see every day that is never almost never Addressed by anyone in this community black or white I have the great privilege of working my offices within the Association of Africans living in Vermont where The director of that program Jacob Bo Gray is here I believe and he is a man from Burkina Faso and he had Given me the great honor of allowing me to have an office in that space. I'm also a family lawyer So I would like to address your attention to the most real problem that I see while I practiced the law there Represent people who come to a LV to talk to me and to talk to me about their problems The greatest problem I see is that women and particularly mothers and single-family Fathers as well are totally neglected in this community and have been so for many many years Beginning with welfare reform legislation back in I don't even know under the Clinton administration So I guess it was in the 90s. Remember that welfare payments were cut off to single poor parents I was in the legislature when that happened I fought like crazy against it because I recognized that single parents and mothers in particular operate to Reproduce the next generation that is the most important work perhaps that is done in this whole society And they have done that for years without any kind of income or any kind of a Protected in the come once welfare was cut and that was minimal to begin with Single parents have had no real financial assistance from our state and that includes Vermont as well as the United States Every day every single day. I see particularly black Women and mothers come to see me about their rights in the family court of which they have none either They are the victims of abuse financial abuse physical abuse Emotional abuse and no one has really addressed those problems But they do come to the Association of Africans African Americans New Americans white people and poor people mainly mothers and I'm telling you they have been Thoroughly neglected in our state and in our country and they are raising the future of this state and of This country without any real help from either the state or the government or really any People in this community. I must say I thank you all for being here and addressing The other problems that black people feel and that white poor people also feel However, I would really implore you to remember. There are many single black Brown mothers who really have no help financially emotionally or in any other way and remember also they are doing the most important work Probably in the world and they are raising sing They are raising the future generation on their own. Thank you You know, thank you for highlighting that I think that I just want to kind of echo what you're saying that As a mother of young kids who is a white upper middle class lady It's not as hard as Sandy talks about right? So what we're talking about here is another issue that is less about me maybe motherhood And more about systemic racism and the neglect of people living in poverty. So I'm really glad that you highlighted it It's it's so different from my experience as a as a Burlington mom someone who feels like this community completely caters to me And to my experience as a working mom Difficult for sure, but in very very different ways than you described so Well, that's why I think I think it's important to understand the intersectionality of oppression and and the reason that I am very strongly an advocate of I Start with I start with black people in this state But I also realize that if you if you make laws to empower What what my faith tradition refers to as the least of these you empower the rest of these as well Because when you for instance if we if we in this state try to enact legislation and laws that empower Black people in this in this state Those those communities will also include poor whites will and poor will it will include oppressed other communities of color on disabled communities and so on and so forth so and and and and the long run the long and short of it all is that as you affect the the the most The most the least powerful communities in this in this state You enact laws that encompasses The all people who are affected by oppression in this state So I think that we we need to understand the intersectionality of the of the problem as well as the solution Oh, I think I'll take this one I'm speaking as a black mother a single mother a adoptive mother a foster mother A mother who advocated for children in the child welfare and criminal justice system for over 25 years I I don't know if it's that simple. I can tell you coming here as a mother of a A young adult that is now expecting um What is policy is not necessarily practice and so I've had some experiences since I've been to vermont um that at another time I'll share that this is not necessarily a friendliest space to those that need help um I've been a mom on food stamps. I've been a mom on assistants. I've been a mom of a child that has cancer who's had to go through getting help Without having um the support services that I needed and decimating my income Rebuilding my life decimating again rebuilding and again and I would say I'm still in that rebuilding mode So I said one thing that needs to happen is actually having those women's voices at the table In policy conversations and making sure that they're heard not just their stories. That's great But the policy that's actually going to change their experience So we don't have to keep hearing this again. The other thing is that it's over abundantly and over absorbed with Women of color but mostly black women when we look at statistics across the blower black women Especially african-american women descendants of slavery tend to be always disproportionately impacted negatively by the system Accepting services and things of that nature. So disproportionately I'd like to see those voices at the table to inform the decision making because the one thing I've experienced as a black woman is when we go through the lens of poverty especially white poverty It forgets about and doesn't reach back to those that are not in poverty that are white And so I think it's a both and approach that we do look across the board But I was reflecting on conversation we had and one of the questions I have for this community as I step into a role of serving this community is A bigger question of not What we're doing, but why we didn't stay Um, one of the questions I keep being asked is how do we keep her here? And that question is for you to answer What I can tell you is there's nothing here for me that I don't create for myself And that's problematic And so whether we're talking about social services Whether we're talking about any of these things it's about becoming in relationship with people The statistic that the uh, excuse me the reverend talked about that Such a large number of white people aren't in relationship with black people It's hard to solve problems because as einstein says How we see a problem how do we solve it if you're not in relationship? You don't even see it My name is amber. Um, I moved here seven months ago from the midwest Um, my second time in vermont different work. I work in housing now And what I notice i'm very direct i'm a straight shooter Um, I think we as white folks, you know, it's great that we have black lives matter or signage Equality flags like all of that on the surface But then we also have what is not really talked about a lot and that is the white safe space And that's where you find the truth and the character of a white person And three times this week and I found myself in conversations where I was appalled by people who in the next breath will tell me How wonderful verman is how wonderful burlington is how accepting we are How we want to see more black people and people of color come here So I guess my statement slash question is how do we go deeper Beyond what the signage is hanging out in downtown And we actually find ways to make burlington start to talk about things Because burlington is a huge white feminist city and we can see it at the pride parade We can see it in local businesses and conversations, but let's get deeper. So what do you guys suggest? That we as white folks do and as a community to actually address the systemic issues that are happening And how vermont can go beyond the surface layer of it being predominantly white Which will turn people away from coming here because people don't feel safe Housing conversations walking into a restaurant and you feel the energy switch All of that is real, but you don't know that because when you walk around downtown burlington Everything looks so comforting and welcoming Well, except if you're different You know, I can't doing this work for 40 plus. I can't tell you how many times people of color have said I got the look You know, you all know what i'm talking about like you're not welcome here. The message is pretty darn clear And I think kim hit on something around there's nothing for you here in terms of retaining talented people of color who are willing to take the risk of coming to a predominantly white state That on the surface as amber was talking about appears welcoming But really isn't you know The relationships I think are critical. I think what Arnold hit on about White folks having black friends and whatever chris rock said. I don't know what you think of chris rock, but you know, I think that's an important concept that You know, if you don't if not in relationship with people who are different It's very hard for you to understand Their challenges and how we as a community can address those challenges I also have to say we've been here about an hour where we haven't touched on homelessness We haven't talked about the the endemic Of serious mental health issues in our communities that are underserved overpopulated in prisons in the criminal justice system You know, we like to pat ourselves on the back here It's a lot more work to be done. So thank you for allowing me to interject that. Please come forward. Thank you Stop there for a second. Sorry You want to piggyback on a little bit of what you're saying is I like the fact that we want to reflect on criminal justice reform and all these things But I think we have to start more simplistic and you know, when we talk about social science We talk about proximity similarity and familiarity that builds relationships, right from a social science perspective And I think before you can talk about reform and change You have to talk about how we build collective relationships and collective societies because when you have that collective voice together You can solve problems. And so right now I struggle with prescribing solutions when you don't even have the voice in the room. And so You know, you need to recruit retain Really think about what this intentional beloved Community that Martin Luther King talked about is you actually have to have me at the table before you start Creating spaces. I talked to my team a lot about this concept of safe spaces And what I've really pointed them to it's not my responsibility as an official or a black person to create a safe space But my responsibility as a city official that is also a black woman Is to ensure that there are no unsafe spaces and remediate when they're not and so I think a lot of times the lens that we solve problems with If we don't have the people that are being most affected by those things We're just creating more problems. And so I think the effort needs to be to actually bring those voices to the table But those that are not in a power dynamic that is one that disenfranchises so as we're bringing more black professionals to the table that understand the system or We have to do more education of black people here that may be new to the system So that they come with the level of expertise to be able to fairly engage across the table Because what I see in my short time here is we love Bringing black people that lack resources information to sit across the table from the power structure And wonder why we continue to have the problems And so I really believe that we have to do a lot more work in building community relationships Recruitment retention of these voices so that the experts are at the table with the other experts to make sure that we're having Conversations and solutions that are based on things that are truly going to move us forward. Thank you I'd love to to bring to focus and i'm sorry just having to stand there in a spot For 10 minutes It's a huge narrative that is what is it that we do to hold on to black and brown folks that we bring to this country Since the year 2010 in chinton county 99.7 of population growth or by poc folks you take a look at our high schools here When you ski high 64 percent racialized kids burlington high 52 percent they speak over 50 languages in these places There's certainly a whole conversation about what do we do to hold on to really interesting and talented folks that we parachute into this space But don't kid yourselves the change is happening right here in our communities I get to say in barbershops all the time where kids that are 16 17 years old All share the same story about how excited they are to finish high school and get the hell out of here So certainly I I think it's important for us to keep in consideration What can we do to bring folks like kim to a place like this where there's a real need for additional perspective and different lived Experience to inform decision, but the problem isn't what we do once we get folks here There are folks right here right now that don't feel like this is home for them too And I think what's really interesting about this place is so many folks are looking for action Tell me what to do You know how tough it is to be a demographic that represents less than 2 of the population trying to help the other 98 percent figure out what the hell to do Think about that for a minute that look when you walk into a restaurant. That's not one time. That's every time When I was at dealer.com at my at when I and this was years ago I was one of the person that was very fortunate to get moved up through the organization very quickly And what I noticed very quickly was the higher I got to move up the less people like me were in the room Every single space that we occupy in this place. We are an afterthought We are second second-class citizens. It feels like we flying to vp's from across the country. They get followed around at stores on church street Yeah, there's some stuff here, but before you're all and I'm so I don't mean I'm now I'm just getting jacked up before Before we talk about give me the answer solve my problem And I think Amber your question is fair. How do we move from just this conversation? What's really hard to solve a problem you're not educated about and it's really hard to be educated problem You have no awareness around you all have access to the internet in this room. I'm fairly confident Take a look. There's some unbelievable resources that can start to help you shift your perspective and really think Shift the way that you perceive how you show up and the accountability or the opportunity that you have to shift the environment that you Live in every day heroes don't wear capes. They're everybody sitting in these damn chairs There's no reason why we can't do a bit more and if we keep waiting for salt folks to solve the problem Particularly folks that are disproportionately impacted by the problem What is the likelihood of us really moving this thing forward? Problem it's a way problem, right? I mean Black people tend not to discriminate against black people so much It's really a white community problem and and putting it all on people who don't look like many of us is patently unfair and doomed to failure, so I appreciate the comment I think we all have to look All of us in the dominant culture have to look at our own behaviors our values and what we're going to do To bring forward the the beloved community that Dr. King worked so hard to achieve Everybody okay here. We've kept you waiting. I appreciate the patience. Thank you It's okay So Robert, I'm not sure if you recognize my face. I met you 14 years ago I can't see so well with these words So I had the pleasure of meeting you 14 years ago when I was assaulted by a cop Okay, and you helped coach me through that experience What I'd like to say is what makes it hard for me being a person of color is When incidences occur a lot of us don't know where to turn to Right now we're dealing with a lot of issues in the schools a lot of racial issues in middle school specifically with blackface and people sending around horrible videos And 14 years later my daughter. I still see myself doing work in the community to try to make these changes I'm a part of a lot of entities in the community We have even launched the parents for change task force And still these incidences are occurring And what we've found out dealing with the schools is a lot of the changes need to be done in the policy How can you do that when? You don't have the degrees behind you to help make that work And how do we reach out to the individuals that have those degrees under their belts to make these changes or help us make these changes Implemented in the schools We've worked with the superintendent. We've worked with the principals of the schools All of them know me by now And our kids it doesn't matter if our kids are good or bad But just to let you know my daughter is a straight a student full all around athletes And the only issue I have with the schools here is that she's dealing with a lot of racism in the school As a parents group, what can we do? To heighten those chances for the students of color BIPOC individuals At the schools to try to help make sure they're being heard When these things are happening and how do they know they have the support behind them to make those changes Thank you for your question So as the school specifically This is an issue that we've been at the aclu with allies working on More in recent years as we've learned more about The long history and widespread problem of racist bullying and hazing and harassment in vermont We have a client go back to the comments about Not being able to keep people around we have multiple clients who have fled the state Including a teenage girl who was bullied and harassed in her school And The the real problem came when it came to the administration and we see this time and again Kids Do stuff, but how do the administrators? How do how do the principals superintendents respond? Do they blame the child who is targeted? Do they deny that there's a problem? Do they try to sweep it under the rug all too often the answer is yes and in vermont there there is a hazing harassment and bullying council Created by state government, but it has no teeth. It has no enforcement mechanisms. It hardly functions And so there there is a coalition that we are a part of I believe it started as the cops out of schools coalition, but they've While that is still part of the focus of that coalition effort um The impact of having Armed law enforcement in schools and the disproportionate impact on students of color students with disabilities low-income students the coalition is also looking at just the Very very widespread problem of racist bullying and harassment And so I'd be happy to try and connect you to that group um, and it's just to say this this is um Again, I think folks have spoken to this this stuff is really widespread and um I think the pastors said this like Folks of color know that this is happening, but it's not they only they know about it Or it's not spoken of in the media. It's not spoken of in the legislative committees It's not spoken of necessarily in the halls of power very much at all um, and again to go back to the backlash theme. I think What we have been talking about in the state over the last two or three years There was there was a moment two and a half years ago when White people in the state were falling all over themselves to get a black lives matter sign on their lawn To sign up an equity consultant for their nonprofit to get at least one black person on their nonprofit board scrambling And in the last two years, I have not seen or heard that like any follow-through instead. We're talking about things like Crime and burlington defunded the police not burlington and the state and the country defunded our social safety net But a lot of really divisive rhetoric that among other things really distracts from these kinds of conversations We don't see racial justice front and center in the legislature this year Like we did two years ago and yet as we've all been saying the work is still there. There's a lot of work still to be done Um, and so I just really encourage folks to get engaged to stay engaged I think the points about educating yourself is always and we must all educate ourselves all the time But being politically engaged at the local level at the state level Because if we're not engaged we're not making demands then things aren't changing So I realized I've been looking left. I'm gonna look right You two have been kind of quiet anything you want to add to this For middle school, this is tough, but um, I've really been inspired by the student activism the state Um, especially and frankly nationwide Um, I I'm gonna completely the butcher the details of the example But there was the high school basketball team where recently raised this video Service and other schools said yeah, actually we're gonna step down and outplay you. We'll take the loss if we need to We want to express as a as a community That's not okay. And we don't have we're kids We don't have a heck of a lot of power But we have the power to play a basketball game or not. And so that's what we're gonna do You know in thinking about like Community responses that actually do something. I thought that was really powerful Um, you know, like duff said, I think that the the legal system can focus on what does the school do? What's the school's response? I'm happy to talk with you too Um, and anyone else who wants to chat about a proper school response to peer-on-peer racial harassment um But I throw out the the student activism as honestly like a little piece of hope for the future And something that I've seen that's actually effective because I mean I think you know, nothing is more effective and You know affecting what a kid does than what their peer does, right? And and whether their peer says something's okay so Not not a great answer, but that's my thought Yeah, I I I am very much concerned about The situation of public schools as it affects people of color students of color especially in Rural sections such as Essex county And other parts of the northeast kingdom where you have a very small percentage of people of color Who find themselves overwhelmed by and targeted? By whites because they feel ice because they are in fact isolated in those communities with no support networks I'm very much concerned about the growing presence of What I refer to as ultra white I'm sorry ultra right conservatives who are trying to take over school boards um, yeah in in this state and how and how effective Parents of color along with their allies can be and preventing that from happening preventing the whitewashing of of history to To convey the effects that people of color had very little contribution if at all To the history of this of the state and of this country We need to we need to really rally against such such efforts and I I think that when when Parents and students and I especially see students Put forth the efforts to say this is not going to happen in our school system. This is not going to happen That's when people start to listen, but I think you need to also recognize when I when I when I When I hurt when I felt the efforts and the energy behind behind the behind the death of George Floyd taking place And it was it was good for a moment But I knew it would just last for a moment Because this is always a phase in which America goes through where you have this heightened awareness that fizzles out after a while and But I but I do think I do think that we are in a phase That is going to eventually change for the better I guess it's in my position as a as a member of the clergy to always look for the for the brighter side I think these these efforts these contrary efforts are part of a A last ditch effort To maintain the status quo against the inevitable changes that will occur America is in the process of becoming a predominantly white People of color nation And there are elements in this country that are going to that are going to try like hell to prevent that from happening Deep pocket elements in this country that are going to try like hell to prevent that from happening And so we are in this as hitler Staged the battle of the bulge as his last ditch effort to win the war against the overwhelming odds against them We have that going on here in the united states There is a there is a battle of the bulge effort among our far white far right conservatives to prevent this inevitable change from happening But I think we need to continue to push for the change push for the reality The the fact that the the 2020 elections Along with previous elections or such where the majority of whites continue to vote republican They continue to vote for candidates that majority of blacks and people of color do not favor But it is through our coalitions That includes whites that includes blacks and includes other people of color This change will occur for the better And so I would continue to encourage you and your your children and students who are allies To continue the pressure because their pressures will amount will amount in very positive change ultimately So I don't like I couldn't agree more except you said it's happening nationally. It's also happening here. It is. That's right Can I interject a bit with with that? I think it's As I reflect I've heard this throughout my whole life about Standing up and mobilizing and getting out in the community and marching and all these different things and I respect The past generations, but I think there's a both and approach and I think yes mobilize The problem with the younger generation is they're tired of mobilizing and nothing happens And so the next thing is really getting behind the policymakers, right? It's not good enough and and one of the things I'm grappling with in my position And I think life is you learn as you grow is Moving past this thing that we keep naming as a person place our thing Racism and start to talk about the racialized behaviors And the things that people are demonstrating because that is what the court system can address We keep talking about blackness as just a race, but it's ethnicity It's a culture and so we need to actually codify that So that we get the proper protections We need to start working and finding to identify not just the thing or the person the person place or thing But actually the action and how it actions out When we're naming things like microaggressions and things that nature that are the everyday experiences of black people We need to start codifying that we need our allies that are sitting there and want to kneel Like we did in 2020 with the kente clause at the national capitol But what I don't see is a legislation coming out of that that's codifying I hear about the far right I I was in a in a state that went from purple to blood red What I saw in the data was it was white women That went from liberal To conservative, right? And so it was the same people that voted blue Were the ones that bloated red and so we have to start reckoning not just what the people were looking at But your cousins and rural vermont that are voting the other way and having courageous conversations with them Not just with me and talking about what it matters when they vote the other way And so there's a lot there's a multi systemic thing that we need to do about educating And thinking about not just what blackness is and anti blackness, but what is whiteness And how do you deal with whiteness and how do you deal with your friends that live in rural vermont? That you're hanging out with that are contrary to what you believe But you're okay sitting across the table having dinner with them Letting your children go to their homes and they're raising them And you're hanging out and they're in relationship because you're not in relationship with us You're in relationship with them and policy becomes practice and becomes life for us when you don't start to do something differently actually Thank you all for your responses And I would like to connect with each of you to see how I can help as a community member to make this experience better for Our bifox students. Thank you. I don't know if you have the inclination or energy But one idea is to run for school board and hold your your paid school officials directly accountable One day robber baby steps. Yeah Hi y'all, thank you This question will be directed mainly at james da flyland kim karson James because your office helped I think support Something that's coming up to vote in march and kim karson because your office has a big part in shaping the narrative of this city and the narrative that we hear so My question revolves around community oversight of the police During the george floyd summer. They're the battery park movement Something that came out of that was a A bill for a community oversight of the police in burlington And that and it was helped they see all supported that writing of that and there's a lot of activist motion behind that And it passed by a city council vote It was then vetoed by the mayor and was one vote short of Of a super majority to become law in burlington And after two years of regrouping This a bunch of activists got together and collected the necessary signatures To now get it on the ballot for this coming march And already there's a lot of pushback. There's a lot of narrative about policing and and and how The police are at a disadvantage already in this community and my question is So and this in this bill is really to make sure that We we really want if well officers whether no matter which side you are on as officer less officers more officers We certainly want officers that aren't afraid to be held accountable, right? And I feel like we're we're already in this moment of Of a narrative battle about crime and safety in this in this community And I think it's going to be centered in march in this and it's going to come to a head This march around this this vote and i'm wondering what you all think how do we push back against these? narratives of crime and safety in this community and push push back against how we how we Look look at this this At our department and what it means to to hold all of our citizens accountable I'm curious if the reflections all that So that's a big question. I don't know how much time do we have? Not enough for a full discussion Should I give you the the 30 second response? I'm happy to speak about it more They see how you supports community oversight of police We do a lot of work on police accountability and oversight Um, among other things as this city recruits more police officers I think it's important to be mindful of what kind of culture those police will be coming into and Whether they expect to come to a place where there won't be Um stronger oversight and accountability mechanisms and there have been in the past and that's an appealing thing to new recruits Um, if they're dissuaded by that sort of thing I think the community should really be asking what kind of officers it's inviting into the community because there is a long history of police brutality overwhelmingly directed at young black men in the city things that have not been front and center in the conversation in the The past couple of years they were two three years ago And so to go back to the theme there's a lot more work to do on policing accountability and oversight And the argument that we can't do that or it will deter recruitment I think we saw that the legislature last year around qualified immunity. We saw that the law enforcement leaders Increasingly relying on that as a way to defeat successfully any police reform Don't do it now. We won't be able to recruit people and that's the only way that we'll be safe There's a lot that's wrong with that argument And we're going to be encouraging people to reject that in this community at the state house And you know, we hope that law enforcement leaders will come around to the idea that They can and should regain the trust of the community by embracing more reforms that are just so obviously needed and overdue And I'll leave it at that just in the interest of time, but happy to talk more So I'll answer it briefly. My position is a little different I just knew here, so I wasn't here during all the unrest, but what I will say is this I think it's more about for me As a city employee the precedence that it sets. It's not just about policing So when you create a community oversight board for police, you also create a community oversight board Possibly in precedence for every other department The problem with that though is I see that is I've watched the other swing And so I think maybe there's a compromise in the middle that we have oversight Maybe not as deep of oversight necessarily because when the up you can't control as your community changes and so the The who's involved in the change may look differently. And so who's the voice may be different over time So think about the schools right now So I was in Iowa and I watched people gain control that changed what you learned And what you understood that weren't experts right and so some of the language in there I want people advocating for me as a black or brown person That's an expert in policing. Maybe in policing the correct way. Not just not at all So it's not necessarily the complete comprehensive. I don't want oversight. I want the um the rules To make more sense and when it swings the other way that it doesn't impact me What I can tell you as a black woman is it always hits us the pendulum Right. And so I think there needs to be a little bit more thought In it In how we're putting rules in place because rules have never really served like brown people very well So I struggle having people that are not experts about the content or not understand or excluding anyone from the conversation As that's a way to go about something when we exclude that means we also limit voices or limit experts and things of that nature and so because of the exclusionary All the different things that you can't have to be on that board Um, I'm cautious with it, right? Um I also again think about the precedent of then is that what we're going to do for all of them Because so as a black woman that's leading a newer department that people want to be heavily involved in should there be rigorous oversight Of me that could maybe friends maybe foe You know a lot of people don't understand this and then we get into a battle of not being able to do the work that we do So I don't fundamentally disagree that police need oversight. Absolutely. I don't fundamentally disagree that the community should be a part of that I don't know because I haven't had enough time with this particular piece of rule legislation Um, whether or not in the short period of time that we've been dealing with the effects post george floyd That we've also put the research in time into this piece of rulemaking I think it's very reactionary as a whole where we're going with policy post george floyd And I think sometimes it's great as a community that is not heavily black and brown But are speaking heavily for black and brown issues to take a pause and make sure that it's vetted And it doesn't disproportionately knock us In the head from the perspective of a black woman also a director of a municipal office That's also working state government and seeing policy work in different spaces Maybe just a pause to make sure that what our intent is is going to line up with the impact So as a former counsel to the burlington police commission, I have many many thoughts about this topic Having seen it up close and I encourage you and other people interested in this issue to convene Community meetings about it. Um, it's a very complex Problem It's not simplistic one side or the other. You know, I think the reaction Being reactive is not usually a good thing um, so so I agree with kim in that respect, but It's like I say, I think the community needs to take on broader and deeper discussions about what direction to move in that regard So with that we have one more Person who wants to pose something to us Come out into the light. Yes. Hello. Oh Hello, um One thing that thank you. Um, one thing that's come up a few times today is this question of Action like what can we actually do and um, there's an issue that um, you spoke to james briefly at the beginning Which is the building of a new women's prison brahman is under contracts to plan Yeah, a new women's prison is going to cost tens of millions of dollars For a shrinking population of people that shouldn't even be there in the first place There's about 90 women in prison in vermont right now the vast majority are there because of um Parallel violations things like that. Uh, they don't need to be there I'm surprised how few people know about this. Um, you know I've been canvassing a little bit on the issue and a lot of people just don't realize that There's a huge amount of money that's about to be invested into prison that is going to last for like 100 years So we're talking about incarcerating not people not like adults right now. We're talking about incarcerating You know Girls who are like 12 13 years old. We're saying we're planning for you to be in prison in 10 years You know, um And I just want to kind of open that up to everyone here and to all of you with something that feels wrong We shouldn't be building this this new prison right now When we have a population that is decreasing when no one should be there in the first place Thank you Philip of dreams if you build it you'll fill it without a doubt I see somebody else approaching the mic, but we're going to make this our last comment Since we're getting into the evening Thanks I'm don ellis. I'm one of the human rights commissioners for our state and really glad to be listening to The concerns and interests of the people in the room happy MLK day I always take this time to reflect because it's It's nothing I take for granted that I'm alive I'm multiracial My parents had to go to a governor to inform the governor that the law had changed and they could get married And that was years after it had been changed And so I don't take it for granted in these days especially There's a lot going on. It's very hot right now. It's very It's very jumpy. There's a lot of hate and fear swirling around just underneath the surface And it's um, it's here in vermont and we We completely don't cover it. We don't speak about it We don't see it, but it is everywhere and it is infected in our communities in our institutions in our in our hopes and dreams And so as I think about how I Tackle this One thing I've noticed is this word discretion discretion is used to make Two cities a tale of two cities in in vermont two vermonts really to to take care of some people and to slam and break others and discretion appears Throughout the system and I wonder because each of you have the opportunity to exercise discretion In the work that you do in your leadership I'd love to know your reflections On how to get beyond discretion as a weapon discretion is used in the judicial branch In terms of is this important? Do I want to take this up? Oh, is this just a this is just a boy thing? You know, that's no problem here or shall I take you from your family and put you into a system forever discretion is used in lack of resource Which cases to take up at the ACLU or not? discretion is used with lawyers I can't take on that civil rights case. It's just you know, it's probably gonna fail And if every lawyer does that and I've seen cases That no lawyer would touch period so if discretion is used to completely Keep you from being able to exercise your judicial rights. You don't have them if discretion is used to Who put people on the panel who all think alike Then the policies and the idea of the panel and the advisory board Completely is lost You don't have that input anymore. It's actually just the same mouthpiece. So discretion's key I think in places that we can Take a step back and look at How are we using this? How could we better use this? to build a one Vermont Not a two Vermont one of which is vicious Thanks. Thank you So I'll I'll be brief in responding to my conversations around criminal justice is a system discretion on exercise of discretion on top exercise of discretion on top of exercise of right down the line from macabre Deciding to blue light somebody To order them out of the vehicle to ask for consent to search To arrest to use force It's just Don I understand your point And discretion tends to be exercised on behalf of the dominant Dominant culture and that's how we are got to where we are today. That's my take on discretion Other people want to react to that patrick suggested we each take a few minutes With concluding remarks I I can just conclude on this one, which is that you know, I think your your assessment of Um discretion being like one of the main drivers in of inequality is totally spot-on and I am increasingly convinced that the um The only way to remedy that is to put black and brown people and people who've experienced poverty and homelessness people who've had experiences um Like that in positions of power in the government Um as lawyers as judges as elected officials Um, I know Justice Sotomayor got in trouble for her wise latina comments But there's some of my favorite that she's ever made something along the lines of you know I as a wise latina have had experiences that other people haven't and I will bring those to bear in my work I think that's true for all of us. We we can only speak from what we've experienced We only know what we see out of our own two eyes I can exercise my discretion with the best of intentions, but I don't know what it's like to have walk in everybody's shoes um, and so I know where diversity gets thrown around like um, like nothing, but um real true diversity in uh government in positions of power, um, and just white folks stepping back And allowing black and brown folks to lead and to make the important decisions. Um, and exercise that discretion I I think that's the path forward Yeah, I I I agree. I think that um As I mentioned earlier, uh, robert appell and I are Are on a board that is that was established to try and Provide greater housing and land make it more accessible affordable For people of color and for other marginalized communities But we also realize I personally realized that I was partly selected because I represent a group and also a financial status That that can that can talk to people of power In a way that way that they hope will not Disturb or upset the status quo And I need to realize that in my capacity not only as a member of the clergy But as a member of any Community or or or board or group That speaks for people who have less who are less fortunate than I They need to be at the table. I think a former governor of of um texas Said that if you're not at the table, you're part of the menu And I think a lot of people feel as if they're part of the menu being eaten up alive By an establishment that is systemically geared against them And so I as a person who has who has been in that position that disadvantage position Who now have some? A greater accessibility to speak to people in power And also recognizing that to some degree I represent that power I need to be able to speak for A systemic change a sea change In the systems in which we now represent so that we are more of a comprehensive We share the power more comprehensively and more justly than we presently are doing and that that really is That really is a policy and a voice that speaks against again against the status quo And for radical change in where we are right now If you wouldn't mind help me understand again the question. Is it how we use discretion? What are our general thoughts if you're sorry go ahead for you particularly it would be in your work How your understanding of discretion and its weaponization actually Could be used To de-weaponize it, you know to to further Our community's health and wholeness And and that discretion piece itself and as a consultant because I understand you being a consultant and a member of many different panels and opportunities What you might do if you step back and go, okay What can I do to de-weaponize? this this Nebulous word it's discretion discretion of prosecutor discretion of school board discretion of principal who gets sent home Or who just you know gets to like Get it talking to how how you might be able to Tackle discretion itself. Yeah, I think that's a really thoughtful question And i'm not sure I have a great answer for you, but I can certainly tell you I try to de-center myself From the work in order to make sure that my preconceived notions my level of discretion My level of privilege my level of prioritization or whatever it may be Is not what leads forward in the efforts that we try to satisfy In my mind it would be impossible to satisfy needs of a community by working as an individual I think it is critically important that we build community in order to serve community So I leverage my discretion in an attempt to take myself and move myself away from the work and create different opportunities for Different lived experience to inform the outcome that we're driving towards and beyond that I don't know that there's a way and and and maybe I think of discretion like I think of resource like I think of prioritization I think all of these different things end up being determining factors on what you actually end up doing Whether it's in my work anybody else's work at the table We all have limited resources even if that's just in the use of time And so I try to make sure that particularly in the work that we bring to the table that it is not the reflection of singular Individuals but the reflection of a collective that ideally is representative of the community that we look to serve and how we look To build solutions. I don't know if that really answers it, but that's what I got It's a hard one, um, I think historically when um people of color Black people in particular have gotten gotten access to systems and power We want to start to walk back Concepts that have worked and provide things. I think changing the lens on how we see it And so I don't want to give away my discretion because I think discretion is powerful I want to utilize it in a more effective and do no harm type of way And I think historically Some of the disconnect between the black community and the white community is just the realization that when we do get power We actually never acted on the way that when you have power And so I don't think discretion is necessarily a negative thing I think it's really coming more from a collective mindset and do no harm When you are using your discretion and that really makes sure that your intent lines up with your impact And you make sure that you also have mechanisms of accountability Um, I think discretion that lacks accountability is more of the issue not discretion in itself yeah, I I think my co-panelists have All said it really well. I'd like to co-sign everything that's been said um And I don't know I I guess I would I'm tempted just to bring it back to the holiday and the man behind the holiday and um You know just thinking about what we've been talking about today one quote That I recall from dr. King is that the biggest threat or impediment Threat to racial justice impediment to achieving racial justice is not the southern Racist it's the white liberal who sees that something is wrong and does nothing Paraphrasing there. I hope I'm I hope I'm close Uses their discretion to do nothing um And so, you know, I think we all have discretion to change Um, and I think a number of folks have spoken to the work that is being done to change this community And a lot of it goes to organizing to building community to building relationships to educating one another and ourselves And I I think those things are really in the spirit of the day And we're just encouraged folks to use their discretion To to pursue those things And I think you know give life to this day through through those positive actions So thank you dawn In my signature block of my email I I I have a Hello My name is Robert A dr. King quote says a person's a man's back can only be Ridden when it's bent so I think it's important for us to stand up for what we believe in And do what we can to make sure that those with the power to exercise discretion Stop using that discretion to maintain the status quo So My friend I think we were done with questions, but here you are so Happy dr. King's birthday. I wasn't going to come up here and say anything because I don't have anything good to say Well, lily, uh We've known each other a long time and it's good to see you so My civil rights have been stomped on George Floyd Trayvon Martin I'm exhausted with this Yeah, here you are I've been to the hrc and I lost I've been with the legal aid society and I lost And nobody wants to do anything about this white platinum privilege prick and cult chest of Vermont And I'm exhausted my family been through hell since we came here We're not troublemakers every I got four adult children every one of them been arrested here Don't in the jail been near myself Here in Vermont and I'm tired. I'm tired of being invisible I'm tired of reaching out to people who don't want to hear what I have to say They don't want to hear about my reality, but it's real Just like I'm a matriarch In the state of Vermont and I got six grandchildren born at UVM. Oh, it used to be called Fletcher Allen I'm exhausted And I got nowhere to turn Nobody to turn to and this man has retaliated against me Up until this january the new year And because in my complaint I complained about being called out Because my car is not parked with they say I should park But I'm a disabled black female I don't need a pro now I need respect and justice to date So I stood with this The system is a joke Sister all I can suggest is to stay Brooklyn strong Absolutely, and please don't tell me I can't be helped. I don't believe that It's dr. King's 94th birthday. I don't believe it Damn it. Somebody gotta help Somebody gotta turn these hate breeders around That 18 year old child who shot them 10 people in Buffalo That's real And right next door to us Well, that's a note to end on As we've said throughout the afternoon There's plenty of work still to be done and I encourage each and every one of us There and here and in the community in our hearts to take on that work redouble our efforts To make the world a better place and to make it Bring bring to life The promise of the quality under the law Prosperity for all and I feel for my sister Lydia So Anyway, go forth and do good work. Thank you So on that good note, I would like to thank this panel great panel For taking time out of your very busy schedule to be with us here this afternoon And to you for being a wonderful audience. I recognize a lot of you. You come here Year after year And please remember that we're one in the struggle and we need to continue Dr. King's dream. Thanks