 have today is we have Jack Delotto from fundraising Academy here to join us for another ask and answer. So I say partner, let's get going. What do you say? Well, first I want to say happy Labor Day weekend to everyone and our Canadian friends also celebrate this weekend. They have a three day weekend and Julia, you and I were talking earlier. I went to school in the East elementary and high school and we would always start school the day after Labor Day. So all this month of August, my parents would be building up to this renewal, this change, this beginning of school, whether it was buying a school clothes or or all of the pencils and pens we had to bring to school. And when Labor Day hit, it seemed like it was the start of a new year. The beginning of the school year, all beginnings, beginning of the school year, the beginning of the changing of the seasons and all of us under all this heat were looking forward to that change to fall. So it's every time of renewal. It's a time of rejuvenation. And these questions we're going to talk about today. They all talk about that same concept in some ways. I love it. I absolutely love it. And you know, it is a new season. It's also the beginning of a new quarter and that big, big push that we have in the nonprofit sector to try and finish out the year strong. And we know that heightened, the giving is heightened during this period of time. So I say, let's get into it. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Today, my special co-host is Jack Elotto, CFRE Super Trainer from Fundraising Academy. And we learned a couple weeks ago that Jack's name is Ignatius, which I love is the best name ever. And so thank you Ignatius for coming and igniting us today. Hey, everybody, we want to thank our presenting sponsors who have been with us for the most part since day one, Blumerang American Nonprofit Academy, your part time controller, Be Generous, a new sponsor, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit.Leader and the Nonprofit Nerd. Again, if you want to catch up with any of our episodes, we have more than 600. And you can find them on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV and Vimeo. And of course, we are also on podcast now. So all of these episodes, if you aren't able to tune in and watch us, you can turn on and listen to us. So queue us up wherever you like to get your podcasts. Okay. Now, Jack, you know, when I see a name withheld, I get all jazzed. So this comes from name withheld from Dayton, Ohio. The question is, do you think CFREs should be paid more than other people in a development department who have not earned this designation? As someone who has earned the CFRE, and it was not easy, I think I should earn more. What do you think? So I get that because what they did by earning that CFREs, they showed their commitment to fundraising as a profession. And they want to be recognized. And we want to see our CEOs and our executive directors recognize the commitment that this individual has made to the profession. Not only is it a commitment to the profession, but it tells donors that they're committed to the profession. It tells the board members that they're committed to the profession. Across all of your constituencies, the message is out that this is your profession, and this is where you're going to remain. Here's the thing. Whether I agree that they should be paid more or not paid more, it doesn't matter. Statistically, they are paid for. National statistics indicate that CFREs earn at the 17% more than their peers. In fact, if you look at some of the job applications that are out there, when they say CFRE preferred in those job announcements, they're messaging you that this matters to them and that you should be expecting a higher salary, a more commitment, whatever it is. And I know when I got my CFRE way back before the start of fire and dinosaurs were still roaming the planet, as soon as I got it, people started to take note to it. And there were not as many then as there are now. So CFRE is really important. And it's an important indicator of your commitment and you should be compensated. Now, Jack, let me ask a follow-up question because I do know that you are one of the brave souls that does CFRE test prep. Could you quickly kind of give us what your perspective is on how much time and money it costs to achieve this? Because this isn't just like a, I'll do it over a long weekend. I mean, right? This can take several years. Is that right? Not necessarily several years, but I talked to someone from Phoenix, Arizona, your hometown yesterday who just got his CFRE yesterday. I'm not going to mention his name. And I talked to him. They call me when they pass the test. They call me when they do not pass the test. And he said, Jack, this has been a slog. I was in your study group. It really helped. And I said, well, tell me, what was your prep? I want to know because I want to share that with others. And he said, it took 100 hours. It was a hundred hours of commitment. And like I said, I'm not going to mention his name, but here's the wonderful thing. This guy works in prison. That's his nonprofit. And I love the fact that he is going to be raising more money based on the skills that he learned. I don't, I can't forget CauseCell because we teach those same skills that make people better fundraisers, whether it's CFRE or CauseCelling, it increases your goal. And it's a commitment. A hundred hours, that's a long time. Yeah. You know, I talked to two other women yesterday and who are just starting that process. And they say, Jack, how long is going to take me to achieve this? Well, I love that you gave me that because if you had asked me that, I mean, this is why I asked you the question. I couldn't have given any idea. I have no idea what that looks like. Really quickly before we go on to the next, the next question. There are fees associated with sitting with the test too. Do you know kind of what that range? I kind of have an idea. See, the first in the process, you have to become certified to take the test. And what CFRE does is they look at the past five years, they look at education, professional practice, volunteering, et cetera. I may not have them all because I don't have them in front of me. And that fee is $800 if you're not a member of one of the national organizations like AFP or AHP. There's like 22 organizations where that fee comes down. So then you get certified and it seems to me that the process is you pick a test date. Yeah. You go to their website, you're going to find the study groups, you're going to find my study group up there, and then you're going to start with a group of people, a study group. You know my study group from this summer, which just ended last Saturday, 144 people? My study group that starts in October, Julia, I already have 34 people. No advertisements, nothing. So it's exciting for me because then you get in that study group and then you pick your test date and hopefully that test date is going to fall after your study group is over and then you're on your way. Okay, cool. Well, I appreciate you sharing that because I can tell you, Jack, that just with the guests that we have on and with the questions that are coming in, we are having more CFRE designations with names and we've had more CFRE questions that are pretty broad. So I assume that just as more of us know to your point in our sector that this is a professional designation and that the marketplace is recognizing that, it's going to be something that we know more and more of. Okay, let's go to the next question and this next question comes to us from Sandra in Los Angeles, California. And her question is, do you think I can work according to the cause selling cycle when other team members in the department don't follow the system? I'm not sure if I'm swimming upstream or not. You know, we've had this question, a similar question to this now and again and it usually happens after we've had somebody from Fundraising Academy on or one of our power weeks because they buy into it and they get all excited but then they go back to their office and they're like, ooh, am I the only one? So how do you see this working? So I see it as an epic fundraising fail because here's the thing about cause selling. Cause selling is a relationship building model of fundraising. You cannot raise money without building relationships, whether it's the cause selling model or the CFRE model or any of the various models of fundraising out there. So my question to that, this person is, what are they using? Here's what they're probably doing. We need money, you got money, give us money, doesn't work. That's done, that's over with and in our cause selling fundraising module, which by the way our cohort is coming up here in September, you know, we say that doesn't work. It's about building relationships. So how can I help this person I say to myself to do this? So I think the way you fix the problem is first you sell the cause selling model to your CEO and your or your executive director and to your board members, okay? Sell it to them. Go in, talk to them about it, the value of it, get them to buy into it. Hey, let me tell you this, if they're not going to buy into it, have them call me. I'm happy to talk with them about cause selling. Anybody, it's free. Okay, that's number one. Once you get that buy-in then what I would say to my CEO or my executive director is, hey, I would like to bring pieces of the cause selling model to each of our development staff meetings or our big staff meetings to talk about. You don't even have to prepare anything. You could go to mylearningportal.org and download a webinar or a video about the model, educate them. Isn't that what we do as development professionals? We're constantly educating our board members and our staff and our CEO and our peers about fundraising. That's what a culture of philanthropy is. Isn't that part of building that culture of philanthropy? So look at that as a way to bring that cause selling program into your organization. You know, Jack, it's interesting. It almost seems to me like, you know how we see so much success with what we call the mission moment where you start every meeting with a very brief but impactful story or context and success about your impact and why you're doing this. And it kind of helps set everything. And I'm almost wondering if there couldn't be the same kind of relationship with cause selling where you start a meeting or you go after the mission moment or whatever and you say, look everybody here's a thought and this is what this means or this is how we do it. And I also appreciate that you're saying with the board because too many organizations put all of this stress and responsibility on the development team and then they're not supporting what's going on. I mean, you know, fundraising is a team sport. Everybody has to be involved. It's not just the director of development who's responsible for raising money. It's everyone. It's the janitor straight up to the chairman of the board. Everyone must be involved. I agree with you. I love that and you're totally repeating what I say all the time. It goes from the facilities management maintenance all the way up to the chairman. Always. Okay, let's get to Nick in Tampa, Florida. How long is the average board member term? We are rewriting our bylaws to get a better handle on the whole tenure part of board service. Appreciate your input. Thanks, Nick. Yeah, so I actually looked the statistic up and here's the thing. 87.5 percent of nonprofit organizations in North America and I'm including Canada and the U.S. 87.5 have term limits. Yeah, most are two three year terms. Two three year terms. That's a total of six years. So I wanted to come back and say, so why do we want term limits? We get this great board member and she's fabulous. She makes a gift. She brings people into the organization. She builds relationships with people. She introduces us to her network of potential qualified prospects. She's doing everything right. And she's coming up to the term to say, holy cow, she's gonna have to get off. Okay, we talked about renewal as part of the Labor Day weekend. Well, here's the thing about term limits. Our board, the way it is now, may not be what we need in six years. Yeah. When you have term limits, it makes it easier for you to diversify your board. That's such an important thing these days. Diversity, inclusion, and equity. You know, I worked for an organization which the primary person we were taking care of in healthcare were Latinos. And guess what, Julia? We didn't have a single Latino on our board. What's wrong with that? So we, it's just crazy. I mean, this is like in the Stone Age, but never though. We can't do that anymore. We have to diversify our board. And when we have term limits, we're able to renew that. The other thing is, when you have term limits, you avoid the concentration of hour with a small group. I've seen that in boards. That's not a good idea. Term limits helps you get rid of non-performing board members. Yeah. If you don't have term limits and you ask somebody who comes from meetings occasionally, doesn't make a gift, badmouth the organization, how are you going to get rid of it? Here's my experience with non-term limited boards. Is that they, non-people who are on the board forever and ever, they become bored, saddened, and they lose their commitment. When I speak with EDs who are having trouble with their boards, and I, you, you and I both have spoken to a lot of CEOs and you say, I can't get my board. Do this. I can't get my, I have this issue. Guess what? It's a board who doesn't have term limits. Yeah. There are a few cons for having term limits. One, they cause you to lose a high-valued board member. You may lose somebody, that woman who's just perfect. But you don't, she's not dead. When you leave a board, you don't die. Okay? It's, if that were the case, then nobody would ever join boards. All right? So they just need to be used differently. I have to keep her involved in some way. Not as a board member, but as an important asset to what the organization is doing. So we have to keep them involved. That's sticky. Right. I agree with you. And I think that there are ways to turn that person into a champion. To identify what that, if you will, respite or vacation is from Board Service. How long does that last? Does it last one year or two years? I mean, what does that look like? And how do you bring them back on? I'm also a huge fan of the Emeritus Board, meaning that when somebody leaves the Board of Directors, the fiduciary board of leadership, they go on to another support board so that you don't lose that connectivity. And sometimes all it is is you're meeting up for cocktails, you know, once a year, but you're still engaging them and letting them know what's going on. You have a sounding board. You can get to them. Yeah. For advice and context or history. Yeah. So yeah, I agree with you. I think you, I think this is a powerful tool, but you need to understand why it works, how it works, and when it works. You know, the great fundraising guru, A Sprinkle Grace, who's written numerous books on boards. I'm reading one of her books right now. She says board members fall into three categories. Ambassador, advocate, and asker. When they leave the board, they can still fulfill those functions. Yeah. I love, okay, advocate, asker, and, and ambassador. You could still be an ambassador. You could still go out and ask for gifts, and you could still advocate for the organization. Absolutely. And that's what we want. And I would say most board members, you know, that's the part of the job that they really like, you know, and they're good at. Yeah. When they know and understand what the organization's doing, they're proud of the work and they want to share it. And I was meeting with a board chair for dinner, like last week, and we were talking and the server came up and said something, and he's like, hey, can I tell you about this organization that I serve? And I was like, whoa, I'm buying your dinner because you did something great, you know, and it turned out that there was a connection with the server for the organization, and it was magical. So, yeah, to be an ambassador and to carry that forward is a cool thing. You know, one of the modules in CFRE is leadership and management. And what we talk in that module is how to manage your board in so many ways, okay? And what we talk about in leadership and management is recruiting, retaining, and getting rid of board members who are not performing. You know, it's a small part of that domain, but it's an important thing for us as development professionals, as the CEO and the executive director, et cetera, to be able to do that. Yeah, oh my god. And you have to, I think one of the things before we go on to the next question is, you have to be able to identify why things aren't working and not just complain about them. Exactly. But figure out what the resolution is. It might take a while, but yeah, your bylaws can be your new best friend. So, let's hope that that answers that question. Lewis from Boston writes in, do you think it might cause some friction for a retiring CFO, Chief Financial Officer, to go on to our board? We have a beloved CFO who's been an amazing, who has been amazing, and it has been suggested we elect him to our board so we have his wisdom and historical perspective. We've never had that question. Yeah, and you know what? My question to Boston, you know, that commercial, it's my cousin from Boston. Anyway, I love Boston and I grew up in Philly, we were rivals in all the sports teams, but I love Boston. So, here's the thing. So, is putting him on the board the only way to get his wisdom and his historical perspective? Is that the only way you could do it? By putting him on the board? Again, he's leaving the staff. Like I said earlier, board members don't die and staff members don't die when they leave your organization or otherwise we have no employment retention problem. Everybody was saying their jobs for fear of passing after they leave. So, that's my first question. Is that the only way to do it? My second question is, are you expecting that that CFO will continue in their role as CFO but just be on the board? Because that's a recipe for dysfunction. Yeah. Staff members don't go on the board and continue and they may not have the title of CFO, but they're still doing the responsibilities. Remember, the board is the policy making organization of your organization of the nonprofit and the staff implements the policy. So, if they're going to be the same person, it's not going to work. Here's what I said. I don't, it's okay to put him or her on the board. I have no problem with that. But you have to have a clear understanding of the job description. Have them sign up board engagement form. They must be monitored by other board members. Remember, the board evaluates the board. They need to join a committee. In this case, this person would probably join the finance committee. So, I'm okay with doing it. I just want to know why that role of wisdom and historical perspective can't be done elsewhere. What about having that person, rather than just join the board, serve on the finance committee? Love that idea. Love that idea, Julia. That's an excellent idea, because then you could see how they will function. It's sort of like a proving ground. I think that's true for every board member. Should maybe spend some time as an adjunct member of the board on a committee. Development, finance, program, whatever it is. Right. Because that tests them. It's a test. Right. You know, I think you're right about the, oh, it could just lead, there's such a great font of wisdom, but it could really lead to some struggle within leadership and how you get things done. And the finance committee is always seems to me, Jack, I don't know what you think, but it always seems like it's the hardest committee to fill. No one ever wants to get on that committee, because it's hard if you don't know what you're talking about. It's intimidating, I should say. Right. Looking at numbers is boring. Okay. I live with the CPA. I know it's boring. Okay. We'll edit that out. Leave it in. That's hilarious. Yeah. Wow. Well, I hope that answers that question, because it's a really interesting dynamic. Sometimes we think we need something, especially in the HR aspect of who's joining our team, but ultimately it ends up causing another problem. Last but not least, it might be just an interesting idea to pre-schedule quarterly meetings with this person, and then that way you can still get some feedback or input and of course, you know, keeping a direct line open to them for historical purposes. But yeah, I don't know, I kind of think you're right, Jack. I feel like a little squishy on that. Yeah, me too. Having them come on to the board. It might not be the healthiest thing. Well, wow, this has been an amazing, another amazing ask and answer with our friend, Jack, a lot of CFRE from Fundraising Academy. Jack, we always love your energy, the things you say. It's really fascinating to get your perspective, and we are so glad that you are in our corner. Yeah. And happy Labor Day to everyone. Happy renewal. Happy start of the school year wherever you are, or if you've already started, happy belated start of the school year. Have a wonderful academic year, all of those students going into school. Yeah. And enjoy your Labor Day weekend. Yeah, you know, I think it's really, Jack, to your point, man, on Tuesday, a lot of things, we kind of batten down the hatches and we sail in towards the stormy seas of the quarter and holiday giving. I don't know about you, but man, invitations are coming in and all of the events and things that were locked down, it seems like the doors have been, you know, pushed forward and we're getting our donors and our nonprofits ready to reassemble public environments. And the end of the year appeal, giving Tuesday, there's so much going to be happening. Thanksgiving in both Canada and the U.S., the holiday season and my favorite holiday of all is Halloween. So it's a chance for me to wear a wig to all and see what I look like if I had air. Okay, I'm going to go on the schedule and I'm going to see what we have for our Halloween episode and I might have to, like, get you booked on the Halloween episode. Sounds good. We can dress up. Yeah, we should. Yeah, okay, I'm making, I'm public witness to all of our viewers. Sounds good. I'm going to do that and we're going to see if we can't get that. Jack, again, thank you so much. It's been a wonderful way to end the week, start my day and move into the holiday. Again, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors who are with us day in and day out who allow us to have these amazing conversations. Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, Be Generous, a new sponsor, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Thought Leader and the Nonprofit Nerd. They are with us and they can be with you as well. So we want to say thank you, thank you. Hey, Jack, enjoy that fabulous weekend and a weekend of renewal and start Tuesday's a new day and we're all going to be busy. Yep. As we end every episode, we like to remind ourselves, our viewers, and our listeners to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you here next week, everyone.