The Great Debate





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Published on May 5, 2009

The fine-tuning argument is NOT fine-tuned to assist believers of particular religions to argue for the truth of their religion's claims. (Read on...)
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References cited below.

Inspiration for this one came from listening to a debate between Christopher Hitchens and Frank Turek, co-author of "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist"
(Geisler, N and Turek, F. Crossway Books, Wheaton Illinois, 2004).
Turek's first 20 minutes were very much like the first three of this video ie, the arguments from cosmology, teleology (the apparent designed nature of the universe), and morality. Some parts of it are direct quotations, other parts are paraphrased, and others I picked up from other theists' videos/writings. To be fair to Turek, he acknowledged that these arguments did NOT lend credibility to the bible on their own, and invited Hitchens to a debate that would deal with the reliability of the bible. I ask, though if you're going to admit that the cosmological argument doesn't prove what you want to communicate, then why bother using it? Christians arent REALLY interested in making atheists into DEISTS, are they? (That's certainly NOT what they're called upon to do in the bible).

These cosmological-type arguments are just so broad and general, that it is a MASSIVE LEAP to go from them, to suddenly arguing for a deity whose name you know, whose values you know (on such things as dietary restrictions and opinions about how you should cut your hair, and, of course, opinions about foreskins), and who apparently has called you into a personal relationship with it. A leap SO MASSIVE, in fact, that no Christian would ever accept it from a Muslim, or vice versa, let alone from a Hindu or a devotee of ancient Egyptian gods.

So this video is not aimed at, or attempting to parody, Frank Turek, but is aimed at those in the youtube Christian community who seem to think that their faith is defended by recourse to the cosmological argument.
Folks, it is NOT.
It never WILL be.
See how ridiculous it seems to you when it comes from someone of another faith? In fact, I found a site that uses ALL of the cosmological arguments that are usually used in defending Christianity, being used to "prove" the accuracy and truth of the Quran.
Here it is, see if these arguments convert you to Islam:

The point of having the atheist remain silent throughout is an attempt to point out two things:
a) that the more theists use these arguments, the more they are simply doing their opponents' work for them, and
b) that we as atheists (or more correctly as anti-theists, as I consider myself) can simply CONCEDE so many arguments and that are intended to stump us. CONCEDE the point, and show the christian that the argument does NOTHING to help them. NOTHING.
What rocks dream of : NOTHING!!!!

So what explains the incredible numbers and precision at the moments following the big bang?
But hey, theist:::: neither do you.
And that's OK.

Maybe it was The Goddess...? Maybe it was Great Spirit...? Maybe it was mass consciousness....?
Maybe we'll never know....!

Other sources of information for this video:

The Hitchens/Turek debate can be seen on youtube (in pieces) or at:


The quote about he ratio between the gravitational constant and the electromagnetec constant came from:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologet... (accessed April 29 , 2009).
I dont know whether its scientifically accurate but being as the character is quoting a religious website for religious purposes, I dont mind if the information is inaccurate.

Hawking, S. A Brief History Of Time, Bantam Press, London: 1988, p. 121-125

Dawkins, R. 1996 The Blind Watchmaker, Norton & Co, NY p116

website and blog: http://www.nonstampcollector.com
twitter: http://www.twitter.com/nonstampNSC

Comments • 2,884

I remember being asked (by one particularly vacant, nauseatingly smiley and unreasonably overly-certain born-again Christian woman) their favorite 'old chestnut' of a question : "But what if you're wrong ?" I stopped walking past her and acted overly-serious for a few seconds, as if I had never heard of, or thought about the question before and I could already sense the first hints of a different kind of smile start to play about the corners of her mouth, she was apparently thinking that I was about to concede her point or admit that 'I'd secretly always believed in God after all, deep down.' or something as equally crazy as that. So, still acting with gravitas, I looked deep into her eyes with unusual earnest (and saw worrying little behind that pair of blank, glassy orbs, no unique spark of character or individual personality.) : 'Well, in that case..' I said, whilst nodding at her in a slow, slightly melancholy and resigned way 'I suppose that we'd both better hope that Zeus was in a really good mood.'
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Great facepalm moments when theists start talking about science
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Justin Porteus
I keep looking at the guy at the podium, and all I can see is a bell curve.
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Cuthbert Nibbles
7/10, Too much truth. -IGN
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Why not just solve it with a prayer test, like the disciples of Baal?
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Jesher Perigord
Even when these people step their game up and show more open-mindedness than their Christian peers and ancestors, they still fall short of grasping the assumptive nature of their reasoning... Sure, maybe there is a God; but the Christian concept of God is so primitive that they may as well not even be talking about God at all. I love how your videos can make me laugh and cringe at the same time. These people deserve our contempt as long as they continue being willfully ignorant and irrational. Deism and Theism are concepts well within the realm of possibility. Christianity/Judaism/Islam simply are not. Deism and Theism can be argued for quite competently without contradicting any falsifiable facts or pragmatic reasoning. Christianity/et cetera are simply wild assertions that fall short of reason and falsifiability. These religions are nothing but fluff based on folklore, and add nothing constructive or worthwhile to any reasonable argument in favor of Deism or Theism. In short, they're rubbish concepts derived from extremely limited and manipulative cultural-political-regional explanations that fail, miserably, to incorporate any world-views outside of their respective little bubbles. Your videos do a much better job of making my points than I do, but I can't help but want to chip in. I would ask any and all Christians/religious people to forgive me for my vitriol, but frankly such people tend to have such poor reasoning and  reading comprehension that it is highly unlikely that they would even understand what I or you are saying to begin with. I just think it's funny that people from these religions can only accept your belief in God if you also believe in all of the unimportant, redundant, asinine fluff that they try to inject alongside the barebones minimum of believing in God alone. They don't realize that all forms of monotheism worship the same God. It's simply not enough to believe in the same God as them; you have to call that God the same name/word that they call it, and you have to submit to their specific idea of what God is like; never compromising that maybe, hey, God might exist despite all religions being incorrect or incomplete.
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Detryck Moore
The universe really is finely tuned and obviously designed for life. The fact that out of the countless trillion stars and planets we've observed contain no life that we know of, that the universe in general has countless ways by which all life on this planet can be snuffed out in an instant, that we cannot venture beyond our atmosphere without incredibly sophisticated and redundant protection systems that even then may or may not provide adequate shielding from harmful radiation depending on solar activity, and that even on Earth itself only a fraction of our landmass is hospitable to human, plant, and animal life shouldn't detract from that. God/Allah/Brahma/Ahura Mazda/Odin/Izanagi/Quetzacoatl/Unkulunkulu obviously created countless lightyears of vast cosmos just for us and for us to enjoy... as long as we don't live above the hemiboreal climate zones of Earth.
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Alan Baptist
Non-stamp collector, you're awesome!
michael rojas
It's meant to be subtle, but your William Lane Craig impression is fuckin spot on! Haha
Erik Kartman
Lol I laughed my ass watching this. It's funny as hell when the moderator points at the atheist with an angry face lol. Great video!
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