The Great Debate





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Uploaded on May 5, 2009

The fine-tuning argument is NOT fine-tuned to assist believers of particular religions to argue for the truth of their religion's claims. (Read on...)
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References cited below.

Inspiration for this one came from listening to a debate between Christopher Hitchens and Frank Turek, co-author of "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist"
(Geisler, N and Turek, F. Crossway Books, Wheaton Illinois, 2004).
Turek's first 20 minutes were very much like the first three of this video ie, the arguments from cosmology, teleology (the apparent designed nature of the universe), and morality. Some parts of it are direct quotations, other parts are paraphrased, and others I picked up from other theists' videos/writings. To be fair to Turek, he acknowledged that these arguments did NOT lend credibility to the bible on their own, and invited Hitchens to a debate that would deal with the reliability of the bible. I ask, though if you're going to admit that the cosmological argument doesn't prove what you want to communicate, then why bother using it? Christians arent REALLY interested in making atheists into DEISTS, are they? (That's certainly NOT what they're called upon to do in the bible).

These cosmological-type arguments are just so broad and general, that it is a MASSIVE LEAP to go from them, to suddenly arguing for a deity whose name you know, whose values you know (on such things as dietary restrictions and opinions about how you should cut your hair, and, of course, opinions about foreskins), and who apparently has called you into a personal relationship with it. A leap SO MASSIVE, in fact, that no Christian would ever accept it from a Muslim, or vice versa, let alone from a Hindu or a devotee of ancient Egyptian gods.

So this video is not aimed at, or attempting to parody, Frank Turek, but is aimed at those in the youtube Christian community who seem to think that their faith is defended by recourse to the cosmological argument.
Folks, it is NOT.
It never WILL be.
See how ridiculous it seems to you when it comes from someone of another faith? In fact, I found a site that uses ALL of the cosmological arguments that are usually used in defending Christianity, being used to "prove" the accuracy and truth of the Quran.
Here it is, see if these arguments convert you to Islam:

The point of having the atheist remain silent throughout is an attempt to point out two things:
a) that the more theists use these arguments, the more they are simply doing their opponents' work for them, and
b) that we as atheists (or more correctly as anti-theists, as I consider myself) can simply CONCEDE so many arguments and that are intended to stump us. CONCEDE the point, and show the christian that the argument does NOTHING to help them. NOTHING.
What rocks dream of : NOTHING!!!!

So what explains the incredible numbers and precision at the moments following the big bang?
But hey, theist:::: neither do you.
And that's OK.

Maybe it was The Goddess...? Maybe it was Great Spirit...? Maybe it was mass consciousness....?
Maybe we'll never know....!

Other sources of information for this video:

The Hitchens/Turek debate can be seen on youtube (in pieces) or at:


The quote about he ratio between the gravitational constant and the electromagnetec constant came from:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologet... (accessed April 29 , 2009).
I dont know whether its scientifically accurate but being as the character is quoting a religious website for religious purposes, I dont mind if the information is inaccurate.

Hawking, S. A Brief History Of Time, Bantam Press, London: 1988, p. 121-125

Dawkins, R. 1996 The Blind Watchmaker, Norton & Co, NY p116

website and blog: http://www.nonstampcollector.com
twitter: http://www.twitter.com/nonstampNSC


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