 with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio and Honolulu Hawaii and Moana, New York. Today, we're looking at cultural life and arts and community, creating a global civil society of respect and rights. Article 27, Contributing Art and Culture for Our Future. Today, we're very fortunate to be able to speak with Virginia Dandan to talk with us a bit about this important right, Article 27. Virginia, thank you so much for joining us. Hello. It's a pleasure to have you. Can you share with us why Article 27 is so important and what first inspired you to care so much about this right? Well, it's hard for me to begin right when I cared so much about it. It feels like I've always cared about it, even when I knew there was a thing called Article 27. I caught up with that article when I was requested by my committee on economic, social, and cultural rights to write what is called a general comment. On Article 15 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights, which focuses really on Article 27. Just so we don't go all sorts of ways with this, can I just focus on several aspects of what this article says and tension to certain words or phrases? And the most important phrase word here is the first word, everyone. If you look at the declaration, it always talks about everyone. But hey, who is everyone? Is my little baby a part of everyone? Or my dog who's like a human? Is the dog part of everyone? Anyway, the general comment, and I really, everyone who's interested in, anyone who's interested in Article 27, should focus on Article 151A on the Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights. Why? Because when you say the declaration, Article 27 is the declaration. It's a declaration. And once a declaration, it says something. But how do you actually make it work? Because human rights, unless it works, is useless. So what you want to see is how does everyone has the right to participate in the life of the community? What does it really mean? And we go into such a long, long discovery of what it means to be part of a community, who can be part of that community, et cetera, et cetera. I can't go into that now, because we have just a drop in an ocean of time to talk about it. So Josh, where do you think I should focus? I think what's really important and what's so crucial is we know the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is turning 75 years. But what you're sharing with us is that from that declaration, there were twin covenants. And you're sharing your experience on the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights, so you sat as a committee member. And then the exciting part is not only did you review countries and share when they came to talk how they were implementing each right, but then a general comment is kind of exciting, because then that's an update or maybe an amendment. And maybe you can share some of the insights as the committee members were looking at what Article 15 of the ICSCR, and what it was at then, and maybe where we see that right now when we look at economic, social, and cultural rights, particularly culture and arts, and share those aspects. OK. That's a whole range of, you know, that's a large pie. You want me to eat here. To chew on. But OK, I'll do my best. But what are you doing? Chewing. OK, chewing. OK. Anyway, Article 15, 1A, I mentioned that a while ago, talks about the right of everyone to take part in cultural life. That's one, to benefit from the progress, from scientific progress in the arts, in science, in the humanities. And third, to be able to be protected against other people who would lay a claim vis-a-vis against your own claim to the material benefits. It's, as I said, it's a whole range. Let me just now focus on what we have learned to call it in shorthand. We call it the intellectual property right. OK. That's a more familiar name for what we're talking about here. It tells you at least most people, if not all people, understand that you have a right to the material aspects of your own creation, whether it be a novel, a poem, a song, a painting, a sculpture, et cetera, a work of art. What about the community? This is now the big question. What rights does the community have to, for example, my production, my art production, when you say everyone has a right to that, what right does the community have after I produce my work? It says, if you read it carefully, the law international says that my community has a right to my production. Now, that is where the tricky part lies. So this is where we need to focus our attention on. Where does the right of one individual begin and end as far as the rights of the community to which this individual belongs also exists? So I don't know how you want to go about it, Joshua. That's a very tall order. Even when we were writing and adopting this general comment on the right to take part in cultural life. And that's only one right. It's a different thing about scientific progress, et cetera, et cetera. There were so many issues that we could not really go ahead and say we're smoothly sailing by. So I don't expect that we are going to sail through with our discussion this morning. So just go ahead and please ask me, because I don't because I can keep talking for three days. I warn you. So just focus my attention on what I want you to say. So the universe of declaration of human rights understands the necessity for contributing to the culture and arts in our common community. And the UDHR also provides a path for humanity to illuminate the possibilities for peace rooted in own unique culture and express through arts. And Article 27 is an essential means to mobilize the human rights movement centered around community aspirations that's shared through the arts. And what I remember and appreciate so much about you is how you actualize this article and some of the actions that maybe you've been involved with either in the special procedures or also what's so unique about you is also an artist that you can share with us a lit how we can promote and protect Article 27. Yeah. Well, thanks for that. It sort of focuses it a bit. The creative aspect of this, I can probably talk about the creative aspect because that's what is important to me as an artist. Nevermind that I'm also what they call a human rights expert. That's just on the side. The main issue here is what happens to my production as an artist. When I finished working with my painting, of course I want to share it with the community whether for material benefits, like I can sell through the galleries and that's another part of this branch of services that have something to do with the right to culture. Number two is that's first. Number two is when you're talking about culture. What exactly are you talking about? Are you talking about everything? Yes, we are. All the material production is part of culture. So how now do you sort of sift through the eggs and the yolk and when you're cooking, you need to be able to separate all your ingredients. That is the dilemma. Up to now, Joshua, that is the dilemma. We have tried very hard with the general comment to sift through all these dilemmas to know about it. Every time we always hit a blank wall. Why is this? It is because culture is not really universal. We have different cultures for each, let's say group or community of people. It has their own culture, their own traditional practices that they have a right to. So when you say that me, I have a right to my production as an artist. But if I begin to show it to the world, then my right becomes in full display and it now attains a certain personality that may or may not be connected anymore to me as an individual artist, but only to the community into which I now introduce my work. And it's true, the UDHR does call for a course of voices for a better world, sharing that vision of inherent dignity and inaneable rights for all. And on the 75th anniversary, it's imperative to cherish and celebrate our rights through culture and arts. Maybe you can share how powerful art is to be able to actually inspire the global human rights movement. To inspire. I don't know about the inspired part because when I do my job, I do it because it's expected of me and not so much with the noble intention that I wish to inspire because I believe that unless you're working in isolation, everything that you do has an impact so you either inspire and courage or discourage or with your own production of art. I'm now speaking as an artist, Joshua, you've never heard me talk like an artist before, exclusively like an artist because I have strong feelings about my work, my relationship with my work and I keep telling that to my students. My responsibility as an artist, including aspects of human rights and intellectual property, are nothing when I am creating and when I'm finished with my creation and I put it out there, it becomes something. And the artist will never accept that he or she no longer has any claim on that art that it has released to the world. Up to now, I feel it's like having puppies, I suppose you can't let go of what used to be part of your being because when you create something, it is a part of your being, it is an expression of your being and to actually release it to the world to say, it's no longer part of me, it's not possible. So we still, maybe you guys who put together the organizations who put together important seminars and workshop, maybe you can further discuss this. It needs to be discussed. We need to find out more, for example, about how the indigenous peoples feel about their cultural practices because this is really a bone of contention because we keep expecting something from the indigenous peoples when they have their own. There's a declaration on the rise of indigenous people. Again, it's a declaration. To find the legal aspects of all of these things, the articles in the declaration, you'll have to go back to the Human Rights Committee, the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the Rights of the Child, CEDAW, et cetera, et cetera. You need to be able to work on in this two-pronged approach. I appreciate that and it's very true when you brought up the UDHR, but there's also the UN DRIP or the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and it's very important how indigenous peoples are exercising really the right of self-determination, the right of free, prior informed consent to be able to bring their art to the world to share, to make sure that the rest of the world also understands but also respects what they're bringing and sharing with the world. And so I think that's a really important point that you're bringing up, the UDHR and the UN DRIP or the UN DRIP, really, especially where you're at and looking at the Philippines and Southeast Asia and Asia Pacific has so many indigenous people, it's one of the richest places where we see Article 27 come to life and the culture usually also shapes the people and even the public policy. So that's what's so fascinating as we look at Article 27 because it takes so many forms and it's an honor to speak with you because not only are you an international human rights law expert, but also a practicing artist and very few people dance in both worlds and you have that great ability to understand the right, not only from a theoretical perspective, but by living that right. And maybe you could share with us a bit as well, some of the exciting people or NGOs that you've worked with throughout your career that you think are champions of Article 27 and how they've been able to make sure that that right lives on and is even more appreciated by all of humanity and is always enriched by their strong advocacy. Okay. Here I don't want to get into trouble with my colleagues in the treaty body system, because I keep telling them that, yeah, we can talk about the law, et cetera, but until and unless we are able to show how this laws can be implemented on a daily basis, on a practical basis, then we're just, you know, wailing at the moon. That's what this is all about. But I have suggested, recommended, more not suggested a recommendation stronger than a suggestion that we need to be able to ask the right questions when various communities come to us. Like communities can be a group of a collective, well, a collective of people who are brought together by not just because they are indigenous peoples or, you know, they're citizens of a certain country, but by the focus they have on the right, on what they do on a daily basis, like, you know, a collection of mothers, a collection of teenagers even, a collection of children who come together for one common cause. Let us just stop, you know, looking at people and dislodging them from the link to a cause. There is always a cause. My experience the committee has taught me that I always have to be on the lookout for this cause because it's what brings people together. That's why the NGOs who come to speak to the community have such a strong voice because they have a common cause. That was always the bond that brought them together. And in that particular bond, you will find really the definition of what human rights is all about. No matter what the lawyers say, et cetera, human rights is all about humans. So we must find a way towards defining what that human is. I wrote my dissertation built on that towards a definition of the human in human rights because guys were forgetting what that word human is all about. I think that's why I have to do that. And it's a crucial point because if we look at that, not only were you a scholar writing that and you performed a very important role being on the committee on economic social and culture rights, one of 18 in the world, but then after even assisting to do a general comment, which is really seen as such an important role to shepherd that through that then in a way crystallizes or understands how these rights are evolving throughout life, then you also served as an independent expert. Can you maybe share those? Now there's 45 independent experts. Why those independent expert roles are so important and what those independent experts bring to the UDHR and how they keep each article alive. When we're talking about the value, we're talking now about the value of being able to work as an independent expert because well, for a long time, I will admit the term independent expert didn't really mean anything, independent expert. What does that say? Well, anyway, for your information now that I have worked for how many more than almost three decades at the UN, I know that when you say you're an independent expert, don't focus on the expert side. Based on practice, the independent is more important. When you're independent, then you are really doing valuable work for the UN. Why? Because people look at you as somebody who is not there to put forward her own agenda. So they begin to talk and it's so important that they have this in relation to article 27 because it says freely to participate. When you say freely, what does that mean? It's a freedom. It's not just a right, it's a freedom. What is the difference between freedom and a right? Well, a freedom, you're born with that freedom. You're also born with the right, but you have to go somewhere to claim that. But freedom is really your being. That is the essence of your being, is your freedom to do certain things. And for me, that is the most important value that an independent expert can bring to everyday people. They become the link between the everyday reality of people and this very abstract world called the United Nations, which can be like saying the Pacific Ocean, because you don't know what it's all about. At least you begin to personify what this world organization is all about, what human rights is all about, because hopefully you are able to reflect in the way you talk, in the way you relate to people, in the way you ask questions, it gives them a sense of they are what is important. They are what the United Nations human rights system is all about and there's no ups and buts about it. So for me anyway, that's my personal view of the whole thing. No, it's a great point and we look at independent experts, we look at working groups, we look at special procedures and the Rapport tours, those special procedures, I agree that it's the independence that they can be able to receive information from directly impacted people, be able to take that knowledge and then help people to make a difference in their lives and show what's possible in a way, in two ways. One is country visits and the other is studies that actually look at the important issues of what people are facing and the latest examples of being able to ensure those rights are realized as we live. One thing I would love to ask you about is if you look at Article 27, it focuses on the right to freely participate in the cultural life of one's community and enjoying arts to contribute to making an impact on Island Earth. It's participation through literature, painting, poetry and song in a way provides a tapestry for transformative change in our communities and our capital. Can you share a little bit more about major heroes or sheroes for Article 27 as we are looking at that? My goodness, there are so many Joshua, you can't expect me to leave them their names now. There's so many and such heroes or sheroes, you know, as they are beginning to get called. I'm not going to say they're a dime a dozen, but they're so numerous, really. They're not some character, because when you say hero, you pick one out of a million or somebody and the person is a hero. No, all of us are heroes. Every single one of us are heroes. And as such, we have an obligation to each other and to our communities to be able to protect and respect and fulfill human rights. That's the short of it. It's very short, but that's about it to work towards the human in human rights. What is it to be human according to our world in human rights? Oh, and it looks also at the UN Charter. It starts with we the peoples and whether we the peoples in the world that we find. And I definitely think if we look at the headline news these days, it does make us ask, what does it mean to be human? And as we look at 75 years of the UDHR, there's been a lot of changes. There's the commission on human rights, which you were part of and participating that then became the Human Rights Council. And many people thought the special procedures would be limited, but it's exciting to see new special procedures being created, such as climate change in human rights and to be able to make sure that the human rights movement continues to grow because those 30 articles of the UDHR, they have been able to make sure that more and more people are at the table, that everyone's voice is heard because we know 75 years ago, not everybody was being included. So that's one of the powers on the 75th anniversary is to see where we are today. And maybe you can share with us a bit a vision for the future of this right, on Article 27 and all of them. Well, now that I am no longer a part of the UN system of human rights, I have the luxury of looking back. And in fact, I'm writing a book now and heaven knows if I ever get it published, but I'm writing it anyway. And sometimes I feel that, you know, my memory when I look back and let's say, for example, look back at how it was when I visited Brazil for my country visit, certain things are no longer clear, like, you know, not clear in the sense that I don't know what happened. I know what happened. But when I look back to translate the impact, the importance of all of these things that I'm talking about, I now question, not question, but I now realize that living a life and looking at the rights, you cannot exclude also your obligations, the rights and obligations of a person. That's why it's so important that we bring that message, find the human test obligations, has rights. But what makes this human, human is the obligations that this human has because that brings to light what community is all about. What's community anyway? It's a group of people who are accountable to each other, who care about each other and who put their focus more on the most vulnerable groups in the community. So here you have the Universal Declaration on Human Rights and what does it focus on? It focuses on the basic human rights values, universal values that we have, which is equality and non-discrimination, inclusion and participation, because sure, you can be included, but if you're not participating, what's the value of your inclusion, right? And then you have accountability and transparency in everything that you do. And most of all, the priority attention we give to the most vulnerable people within our community. That's absolutely perfect. And it agrees, what you're talking about is that spirit, that sense of solidarity of all our rights being interconnected, that concept of philosophy, as you're talking about of Ubuntu in South Africa, but that many cultures share that we are one and really what was also written in the UDHR when they were thinking in Paris was that we must stand together for one another, because that's the only way any of our rights will be realized. Thank you so much for sharing with us about Article 27. Thank you.