 So this I was not this is intended to be like a talk or presentation. This is more meant to be like a collaborative kind of discussion. So how many of you here are familiar with the NodeJS community? Okay, so kind of there's a few people or kind of a few people who are. So the NodeJS community committee is the top level committee in the Node project. It is one of two top level committees. So there's the technical steering committee and the NodeJS community committee. The community committee is tasked with the way I phrase it is outward facing kind of efforts. So helping kind of the community interface with the projects and then kind of helping engage with the ecosystem at large in certain ways that the technically focused parts of the project are not or it's not part of their scope. There's more to it in that we've had some scope grief and things other interesting things have popped up. And so that's rethinking kind of certain elements of that and making sure that we're being working most optimally, including working with the technical side of the project and basically optimizing what we're doing to ensure that we're getting the most out of the work that the community committee is doing is kind of what I wanted this session to be. So for a little bit of context, I was chairperson or co-chair and then chairperson at the ComCom for a year. I helped a lot with the ComCom. I spent a lot of time in it and it's something I really care about and I wanted to make sure that we're able to kind of get a lot of value out of the work that's been done and that could be continued to be done from the kind of same point of view or same intent. So I do want to start this off by just saying that we have a lot of really awesome contributors. It's really been nice to see the community grow. There's initiatives at this point that have grown beyond the community committee scope. So like there are members of those initiatives who do not necessarily understand like know the community committee and like don't participate in at the level and that was my goal for a long time is like the community needs to be administrative and it administrates the kind of efforts that work under it as they need it basically and I'll just get out of the way and allow them to do it. So the community committee has a few different initiatives, well kind of a lot of initiatives. So these are current initiatives. Internationalization mentorship, Node.js collection outreach, use of feedback and what's their reason. So these are you know we have a champion structure where someone from the community has to be a champion of an initiative for it to be a current initiative and then from there that person can kind of report up to the Comcom to allow us to kind of understand what's happening those initiatives and make sure we have a line to them so they're not just kind of floating doing their own thing without help from help and support. These are our initiatives that we've either marked as in need of champion or they are kind of stale in some way. For example I'll put the blame on myself. Office hours is something that was discussed and I just hadn't had the time to kind of really go and do it more despite having been the champion and having others offer to help. There's a bunch of other things. So Code and Learn is a really interesting thing. It's specifically Code and Learn for letting us to making other repos other than Node friendly to Code and Learn. I believe this one is actually referring to Comcom the Comcom subjects like the Comcom initiatives making them friendly to Code and Learn. So basically allowing people to come and contribute and get a commit bit in a repo in Node. Additionally there's others there. We've had others proposed. Those haven't always manifested into this list and this list and kind of getting the point where we have a list and we have this structure of champions took us a long time. We did a lot of work and we did a lot of work to get to this point and I want to see if we can kind of explore what we can do next from these initiatives and also other things around them. Joy did you have a question? Yeah I want to get some clarity around what the boundaries like to the extent to which this is like office hours for example something that should be for all of the OpenJS foundation versus like oh this is something we want to keep running within Node's autonomous community because that's super important that Node still has its own community identity. Yeah I mean I think part of this list is outdated. So part of this really is like backlog and want to have instead of in need of a champion and like a project that was already like individual membership shouldn't be on this list. That's something that's already been determined to be moved up to CPC and the full foundation level and some of these were like never flushed out projects that like need new champions. It's like a wish list of like if you're interested in this here's some context so we probably need to restructure this. I think it'd be helpful to like structure this conversation around what does it make sense for the Node like if Node is a community committee like wants to have things that remain like what do the scope of these look like versus at the CPC level because I do think a lot of these things um not just initiative but like looking at the various repos because we have like education, we have evangelism, we have all of these other repos that aren't that get started. These areas help these areas that are really important. I mean historical to know that again like it makes more sense to provide a framework at the CPC level and then help empower other projects to work together on like best practices on the things if they want to have it unique to their project. I agree it's just the question I guess is like people working for CPC to the Node one you want to just stay at the Node level or are they interested in doing the bigger picture like here's a template versus the actual like let's do very things you know. Right and I think part of the structure that Tracy just mentioned could be like this group that's under the OpenJS foundation um and by the way just because I'm standing up here I'm not trying to like lead it I'm just trying to I'm going to participate but yeah uh so I think the structure that Tracy is mentioning is like that bringing something like I mean outreach is a good example to me. I don't think that's a Node specific thing in any way and I think that should be a broader thing that our foundation does but something like you know office hour like for example office hours. If we wanted to bring that up a level and define a like have some kind of structure that projects if they want to can go pull from and use that structure to base their own work off of that um whether they just want to carbon copy it and and start kick it off or if they want to actually go ahead and base it off of that and then kind of deviate um and then you know figure out some feedback back up of why they deviated. I think it's a little Michael's also saying though it's like people don't have an obligation to work on. Right that's good. Yeah you can just keep working on Node you can just keep working on Node you can just keep working on your project if you would like to pull this information and um I would say like if you want to just keep working on what you're working on already like for instance this folks at Node um then like maybe the opportunity there is for them to teach somebody else who is excited to do it at the CPC level about like what they have been working on and how they approached it. Yeah and what I was getting at there is like uh just just because we moved something up doesn't mean we're not going to continue doing it or we don't we're going to stop doing it in Node like we can continue doing it in Node how we want um but Node has prior art and prior context of how we can up-level that and then uh help help we can continue doing it our way and also help other build out the framework for others to do it as well. Actually the words you just used is what's in my mind like you said that implies we're not moving it out of work copying. Yes you know that can actually make total sense in some but another one is like no this actually just starts in English which is like broader. Yeah do we need to draw a bend diagram of like what makes sense I'm like you know I'm just wondering it's not a bend diagram. That's a hierarchy of what so there's there's a few different there's a few different ways that any initiative could change one is it's completely absorbed by OpenJS like individual membership like Node should not be administrating anybody individual membership yeah at any level uh there's stuff like office hours which it would be good to have guides from OpenJS that spread learnings on the projects but honestly here you're going to serve yourself with a bit of help from Foundation folks if you need it and there's other stuff that is solidly in the realm of of Node work which like website redesign like we get to decide what our look and feel looks like in the structure of our documentation maybe we use some foundation resources for hosting if we get structure figured out but even not example I was having a discussion with a seller and for them you're saying it'd be a really great foundation for a team provided like here's our template so if you're new project you want to make a website that you can customize these things and not be able to list them out so there's no project. Yeah actually just like Theoretically OpenJS could provide you a template github org which you clone in like your new project. I mean they just introduced template repro as well. Yeah um but there's there's stuff that I think lends itself more towards supplying guidance like the specifically for documentation sites like I have a hunch that a lot of people have lends itself less well than I thought. Yeah although it doesn't exist. That website was like it was just I just wanted it to be template but now yeah yeah. So what are you saying you're talking about websites right now? Yeah. So was the idea because I know we were talking about infrastructure right like infrastructure is up to OpenJS right as much as possible unless somebody wants a one-off thing that they're asking for like if you want something that's special you can do that but you have to maintain this was more about like even just like templates and so forth to say you know it was like all our websites eight years old how do we get help to get something better and you can see OpenJS to like actually stuff here's a template for an update website and it's customizable for your project put the information in and okay it's not too specific but maybe some projects don't pair right let me say that would be fun. I mean because I feel like that's like that already exists I feel like that exists in the the world of web development like that just is an investment of going up like picking that thing and we can we can create a list of those things. You could just be choosing one. Right it would just take someone at most of the C-ish level or someone in a project doing the work and sharing it with the other projects. Because if you choose one then you can get that you can choose a different of them so you're on your own. So you're talking about office hours then? Sounds like you're talking about shared resources to make everything make that process efficient for everybody. A lot of that comes back to like can we share something? I think wherever you place it as a shareable resource it doesn't change the argument that there exists a spectrum of things that can't be shared. Every initiative will fall somewhere on it and we have to draw a line at some point. So like this is project management something foundation we can accommodate right now that's activation barriers for getting that. So can you like go back up into the list and actually have us talk through with what these are? Yeah I'm wondering if the reader doesn't make more sense to look at the requests. The requests themselves? We have a list. The strategic issues list. We moved into readme. What list? I thought at some point we had a full list of the scope that we cover. I moved into the main readme that wasn't discoverable and it split up. Oh into initiatives instead of actual repos? Well the repos are here. This isn't complete them though. It's like education and evangelism are missing. Evangelism is retired. Oh okay. And education I don't know. Is it completed and retired? Oh yeah education, visuals, and community events badges. Yeah yeah. So I guess more of this question would be from folks here in the room is like what what here would only be applicable to note? Yeah no jays question. Those are the only two. I think it is but that doesn't mean it has to be. Yeah I guess the other two like you can only just question why would you do the same thing. Well right that's what I was thinking. Yeah yeah. It's going to be hard to say. Yes. Like at the OpenJS level you can always say hey we can get up to something. So and so that's what that split is. Like does the foundation take over really the project? Like I used to be sorry um in video membership or is it something like share the foundation we'll get together a bunch of resources that we could copy but for notes case like honestly ours would be the template that would be up level likely and we'd still be responsible for data. Okay so and in terms of like moving like considering like when these because what we're talking about is like templates for having these programs in the other projects like if we're talking about no collection that would be like exploited to like a marketing like a blob you know feature like story set for any of the projects that want it. But like that's not already in place so work still has to be done at the foundation level to actually because like some of these things it's just like it's almost copy and paste like individual membership is like already there but then these other things like no collection which I think would be really helpful to the other projects. Like how would we move forward with that? Would we like make a repo at the open JS level and like but it's not going to be you don't want to make it look like it's a program that exists because we're creating a bunch of work where we're potentially not adopting it. I do want to interject here on pause. Four of us have been talking a lot. Anyone else have thoughts or context or something that you know feelings about this stuff that has been talking a lot? An area of the conversation that. Yeah I think that's what I get asked me about that they're can we define this spectrum like how many buckets are there that you can classify in program because there is insertion of the work that's all the work. Some of the work for most of the work but you can it's a little of the work. Each program is going to be different so like for moderation like foundation will probably provide guidelines on moderation so you can do it. That doesn't work for nodes though. It's very helpful. It's very effective. Okay it doesn't work that they're good arguments if you need an escalation model. Yeah we don't have an escalation model. I wasn't talking about an escalation model. I was talking about the we have a moderation team that is engaged. Or also guidance to other projects that are looking to put a moderation team in place. So that's one example where a lot of the owners are getting of service if you think about it might not work for the project they would want permission to provide so we need to like communicate with all the projects and get them in the project. And that would potentially happen during the proposal phase. The other thing I guess I think it's really good when we can screen my show off this. We're all going to have the foundation for limited age resources. We're going to hear from like the JSF projects. This is like so my question for you is like just thinking about moderation in this example do y'all have like a system of moderation in place for your project. Is that something that would be a burden if we if like if it was decided like we've already have a set like a an agree upon the product across the project. But if we were to come like at some point CPC says okay well like part of a code of conduct is the ability to enforce it. Can you do you feel comfortable being able to enforce the code of conduct on your own. Would you ask for like outside help to learn how to do that or would you need people from outside of your project to help you. You'd be okay yeah because like my thing is from wearing my moderation team hat we actually think it's really important that you have the context and trust in your project when you're doing the moderation work. If people don't know who you are it's not. Yeah because I do wonder if like I don't know if I feel comfortable with like us saying something like we providing moderation team to the other projects. That's a really tough thing to do but also otherwise you're potentially leaving a gap for if there's not space. I mean it's just like an interesting thing like impact projects versus several other projects. So is it like is a good idea with these to be sort of I'm even you know like next steps with like considering how they go to the open to this level like do we also it's like a list of these things that have happened with our project that we recommend being useful or something exciting that other projects could do but then for it to be worked on instead of creating a giant backlog of things that aren't being worked on would we want to like have people vote on what they're actually interested in seeing the forward right now like proposal. And anybody can participate in some of these things. It's a wide of three initiatives and hitting you know like and just kind of taking a more like focused approach by you know. Right that's a different like a vote that's really important like concerns that that doesn't work for any of the volunteers. Well right you would want to sign it. So it's not only like a vote as in like I like this thing popularity contest it's who's signing up right. That's part of like the factory actually like if it's say we have 50 people who are regularly participating in the CPC about moving mentorship like those efforts and that's where we spend our time and then we have because we have people who are interested in carrying those. Yeah. So hold on. All right Erin. People who are extra experienced moderators from other communities to show us facilitators to help with the process and don't make decisions that are like hey here's how the process should work and you left out this chunk of it would be a nice work. You know they're bringing in negotiations. This was actually I think it's an open issue for us with moderation of the idea of having been the neutral facilitator like someone who can step in with especially when it's too far greater to work closely and say like I have absolutely you know worse than this you know race. It's like we've done that in practice so it's like when someone is involved that ends up happening but it's not like a document or like written down thing. So number of such issues in past history is I'm gonna guess negligible in terms of meeting. So the 1% of the time is when you have to end up on having to report. That's it's important to have those structures. Yes. Yeah. I mean for no we've had many. It's not in the last year or two. Like this is you're right that like overall we think we have a lot of fires. We do not have that many fires. They just feel very big when they happen. I would say maybe it used to be once a quarter now it's not once a year. They feel and they feel smaller when you have fires. Here you have that projecting to some extent the experience of now all to other contracts. Which is notorious for being out. Yeah. And scope of these are quite different. Yeah. And I and I you know I guess the thing I would say about that is that I don't think we're trying to like we're coming this from the no topics like this is big no. We're trying to discuss how we can help level things and like provide that framework but like not force it and I think that's a discussion we haven't like whether it's like a requirement or not which I don't think it should be like a hard force requirement. Having the framework available is nice to have it often like having that knowledge distilled in a way that you can just kind of take it. And I think on the macro level it's an advantage. It's an advantage that projects that we might be able to create a full of educational resources to people who have like gone through some operation training or something like that to be able to pop in and have existing projects for the point zero zero zero percent of the time they do get that and it's like you know it's a selling point to projects that may be looking to be able to get this. It does have a lot of process layered on top of what we do. It's often too much for other projects and that's one part of the process is to not in both process and make available resources. So there will be a translation between what Node does and you're wondering if you want to get a couple of levels on the CPC. Yeah I think that there's a good example is like the admin work we had done in the past which was where the TSC and CompOm had to decide on links together and we found this a lot of times where like process has been written because of past experiences not from thought. We were always very clear like you should not be passing anything because of something that has not happened. Yeah and part of that exactly what you're saying is don't over optimize for the other projects when they don't need it. So like when we go to build those things out at the CPC level I think that's a really important perspective to bring that a lot of these circumstances that they've like they've seen are probably on that position for any other projects. Are there resources and lessons learned? Yes absolutely. Yeah I think the rare spot there which we had brought up with the Code of Conduct stuff is that there in terms of like safety and environment there is a lot of deals around like making sure that we're creating you know the room to learn because violating a Code of Conduct does not mean that you're banned. It means you get talked to and hopefully aren't learning and like improve. With that we also just have to make sure that we're not driving people away which we did that in the past in our own project. I'm not sure about the Code of Conduct but it's sort of been applied in various ways. So the example of this other project we just like moderation foundation and projects for responsibility. One that I think is on the far end of the project I'm going to insert it like it's just kind of like a project to be uh used to be back. Yeah like foundation's not gonna just like pace so we could go out and be in support. Good stuff maybe that's possible but now you'll be better to that elsewhere. I would say that but it's a good model but like yeah and there's sure it's sort of just like a foundation has to be back. So yeah and so doing surveys that are half the other projects. Well it's a sort of some sort of because I think this is like a guild almost like would be great it would be like okay I'm in you know webpack I think it's really interesting what survey you did here like what did you do and how did you meet people to like get there and I would go up to like do a similar feedback. So I'm like you're the member of music feedback you're not just saying both and what are you about them around like this being a more general generalist. Yeah so I'm like two layers. Yeah no I know yeah yeah you're a layer under music you gotta very questions of like how does this are actually more how does any work we're facilitating a conversation with businesses or large for the large footprint of the whole the whole focus to get context in and then stupid but we already kind of hit that okay so I have all this information now so it's more to me about how do you bubble back up or maybe you don't need to bubble up it's more about facilitating that kind of cross functional communication knowing that though I would like I would love to see like a report come out because I'm sure like with that sort of stance the board of corporate members would love to hear that information and being able to facilitate yeah I mean that's something like it was an individual work you could still do without like some overhead do you for somebody without the context on a given example what some of those learnings or like context would be that would be useful to be bubbled up and and how I would benefit so we just had our first official one a few weeks ago um we're trying to better strain the questions and frame the kind of questions we get back but specifically to be an example of we get suggestions from those user communities of things that the project can do so one of the good suggestions is that actual calendar feed for releases and applications like an actual format because members can import that into their project management and have some plan work right so that was a good you know simple suggestion but then okay how do we go about doing that or how do we communicate that to let's say the at tsc or members or you know no just other kind of projects as well of actually having some centralized effort of creating that calendar feed right we did something that's still hanging through this that becomes a complicated issue of getting to that and how we communicate progress on that because if you keep having these conversations with the enterprise groups and not communicate progress back then there's this interest yeah and so let's talk because we're talking about you're doing this release stage and so maybe it's to be clear the mandate of the team that you're with is just to capture those have a process to capture and identify those things and then bring them back up and let somebody else figure out how operationalize it and equally whatever opportunities that come from these conversations or from other committees as well if they let's say the um a working group is looking at promises or some core api or something and they need to facilitate feedback or get some information beyond just the a to where what do y'all think getting actual businesses who are multi million dollar projects dependent on that api is going to get activated maybe facilitating that channel and maybe getting you know the a business x when you're running a thousand applications in this node version of the state product or transfer project take this beta or alpha or rc release and product and tell us some lessons or learnings from that um but that's a bit of a pipeline thing but in order to get there we need all these channels of new features you know and vertical and I I very much agree with that I think that's one of the things I personally noticed about platform um it's like we how we structure a company tsc if there is definitely like a line in the sand um and there's not a lot of cross communication which is really sad for me um and that's that was one of the motivations for this session was just so I would say with this just in this for these examples um what would be really cool that I would like to see from the cpc level is identifying these like these maps these days of being able to mobilize and activate on the information that you collected because of course like you've done this awesome work it's kind of work to reach the feedback and then you don't want it falling on down here it's I think um your awesome presentation yesterday on um node help and the all of the recommendations that you had our recommendation was you should just file these as issues like it would be really one of the ways um is to like find people who would like for the repos who would find this problem relevant and then um you know it's up to them right or for someone to show up and say oh cool this issue I can totally tackle this issue um this is really important for us to go with you or um that's good to know but it's it's deep prioritized for now for the other issues that we have in repo um because the hope is that your work doesn't fall into years but um it is also we should stop um but yeah and I think in that circumstance too best practices that we can do with feedback like from the dance level is how do we work on opening the channels to like corporate members being able to get this information from a newsletter perspective and we have to be really interested in that what I think we need to get it as well it's like the companies that are in the foundation are interested in JavaScript somehow yeah theoretically it's opening a lot of community just in general like opening a lot of communication I think that would be really interesting and fun challenge um those are the sorts of things where like on the joint strategy subcommittee we want to know which was bringing top level committees and board together in the same meeting and like actually workshopping and doing things was really good because somebody there from google would be able to say yeah I've got two colleagues who would be very interested in this let me make an introduction so we need to keep that stuff off again as well because this is exactly a circumstance where us working together is going to help a lot I'm just really quick as you mentioned like the joint strategy yeah to clear on like how that I feel like this joint strategy is now something that should be strategy across all of the projects yeah it's not happening or that it stopped when the lawyer happened so in this circumstance what I would imagine the joint strategy would be and the entire reason it existed was a board meeting um is not the place generally looking to get done decisions are voted on and the information is already presented ahead but that doesn't mean that the board members aren't interested some of the board members are absolutely interested in doing the work and helping facilitate information getting actually forward getting back to corporate members so what we would do is have a subset of them a minimum requirement of three board members that were not community board members attending the meeting alongside people from the project and in this case it'd be projects so we would maybe want to say for minimum four of like a certain number of projects need to be represented in the meeting or decisions can be made you can have discussions but you want to make sure you have the perspectives in the room to go forward with things that require all of the the wheels to be greased and working together to make something happen and this is the sort of thing I think the corporate members are very interested in getting this kind of information they would certainly give this advice to help but we haven't yeah we haven't came to that back up yet really or um I had canceled the I co-chaired it with Sarah Bodney on Lewis and South and we were waiting for the CDC to be born so that um the CDC can sort of take take control and figure out what they wanted to be forwarded if that was relevant I would recommend I highly recommend it because there's a few other opportunities you get engaged board members on a company basis like working with people and things like that it's not the community yeah you all were the ones to get that this point it should be a subset of the CDC's executive meetings like before it was a little unfair but it wasn't too much it needs to be followed by yeah I will say it was not broadcast for reasons so the circumstance there was that board members could still talk candidly about things that were semi-private it was recommend you know anytime it was something that could be public information that we shared back anyways and published as issues or whatever um because it's important that we're transparent that word but it was nice for the board members to get them trusted that something before you know these were foundations they're like they're all they're all to concern that they can't speak about things for fear of it coming back to bite I think Jerry was playing here like I think that I like that wait you want to get that full list of things like all these things really I think in my mind there's so many steps up they become more of the and we should work together to kind of say we'd like to say find volunteers for these three which we think would be the most important right but it relies on the funding of the champion and the legal thing as well right I think it's just like it's sort of the pattern which kind of work was that we have a traditional list that's only longer from the champion and that's kind of a starting way of focusing on right and I think one of the values of like this kind of real generate like a hundred thousand ideas we should capture all of those and the ones that really excite us are the ones that are going to make it to like our staging process where we're actually putting in a few specific in the efforts that we think we can get down and make sure that the the list that we generated basically you know most of the people in here are are calm calm you know jsc people who have experience and are really close to you know what they've done in the past and I was going to say maybe if you guys are trying to figure out how to up level the things that the calm calm does and what shouldn't should not apply your responsibilities you can maybe think of it as like what responsibilities of the calm calm within no js you know put yourselves in the shoes of an open jss project essentially and say you know with your no knowledge what responsibilities of the calm calm would you love to see be made redundant if the open jss foundation was functioning at its highest level at some point in future like what things are y'all already doing that could be offloaded and be productive for no itself maybe not know itself but any project it was offloaded to a higher level responsibility right not that not that someone else comes up with your code of conduct but has some guidance and some help with some resources to make that process for y'all a little bit easier and to be able to run that part of the committee with fewer people and just a lot of the projects have very few people to do all this stuff i mean i could exercise that that's something i could probably pass out online yeah well i think a good exercise that we can take back to calm calm and like you could do it as a as a group just do one initiative meeting or to have the initiatives do it themselves um is come up with that document like read it rough draft if we were to write this as a proposal the it consists of the line providing a guidance from uh from like a top level then i think even uh website design or not just selection could be uh the guideline for the projects out with many of what's our process looks like how we did it like a website design it's a big initiative it's really similar project want to go through the same process of yeah there was a then which can be used that as well as i can see in both of them just to make sure yeah not nothing is in position position but uh something we want to work out on the process definitely thinking about like that there you'll be able to see from your experience with your own with no jazz what what initiatives should be wholly owned by the you know in pretty hands-off um wholly owned by the individual projects um is there some things that obviously you know the project need and want to in order to feel safe and just it or whatever they need to hold on to some things but then other things are like man i wish we knew this before we got started and then you know those kinds of things you could capture and move up and then offer them to other projects as like if y'all want to do this here's the learning that we crystallize from our messy process we have maybe this is just my we have like a campaign we get together or we don't so that's actually we talked about a little bit of governance um the the champions for initiatives happen to be a talk on my members so basically every conference yeah um yeah we talked about the allow that about um how yeah having happening apparently we uh we talked briefly uh if we were to reach again to that point you do not have to be a vote a member of the cpc in order to be a mentor or a champion sorry you can anybody can jam in and ever this is what i think i'm debating about yeah this is something i'm sorry this is something i wanted to bring up since we started pulling on this path i'm going to wait for everything to finalize but i think this is a very good path for pompom it makes more sense rather than limiting the scope and we've tried this previously with um there's a word for them i can't remember that people who on the server server thank you um but i didn't really work well um it's there's a lot of process i think it would be smart but play a pompom to follow a similar pattern of what we built out with the cpc of voting members and members so the reason just context why this exists in the first place is because people were creating projects without asking and didn't attend meetings or ask permission for things when it affected other parts of the project and didn't ask for context and so we thought what was end up happening was if you didn't have a champion on the pompom you were saying yourself up to me because you weren't going to have the help and assistance necessary to be able to get your project right exactly you just need accountability you don't need to be a buddy because because you don't want to have a separate meeting it only has the champions that maybe you don't have me and i i i do here's two things here one is voting for you and the other is championship and i think they go hand in hand but i do think that uh we're going to have a trip uh voting for something that we need to get also away from us right now so we get we can change our level up process previously we've been in there for three months you're in to do a question that's basically almost like your proposal uh we voted on people once they hit that point you know probably they got in now it's there's some magical path between initiatives compound it's not very well in life so i understand that i think i understand that's like it's it's a tribute yes the difference between an observer and a regular member is like in my mind the regular members that i want to be a regular distributor we don't have we don't have observers yeah we don't need that's what i'm saying like i don't understand what the difference is between like so if you have voting members and the radio with the difference between a regular member of um you mean like yeah we don't have a different section but but i i think one of the arguments for having a is this sort of way to recognize people for making sustained effort and attendance and contribution even though they may not be a representative from specific projects it was sort of a like it's a way for a person to provide recognition and like value you know like because otherwise yeah we want to encourage other people to be regular distributor and there was a there was an discussion about it in the network because in my mind anyway being recognized and sort of i mean i will also say the uh your terms of worship was high uh it becomes a part of the process and how it like actually kind of listens to her it was relatively cool uh yeah it doesn't explain when like i i'm given boring in the context of why that was maybe a challenge in being two regular members and then obviously nominated by i forget the exact words i don't know if the words are How do you do that? Some of the regular members, they show up all the time. I hate it. I entirely believe that that is exactly what I'm saying. I don't understand what you're saying. Gary, this is fun. Yeah? It's fun. It's a feature. Yeah. You can get now a little more like this. Exactly what I'm saying. I think this is great. We're great. Yeah. So thank you everyone for this. Thank you. You're being used to it. We're community. Thank you. We love you. Please feel free to reach out to Adam, Tracy, myself, Michael. So, everyone. Well, I'm very happy that the recording people are here. I'm very happy that the majority of the people that are in Hong Kong, that usually doesn't happen. Thank you everyone.