 Welcome back to the Cube Silicon Angles live streaming television show We're here in San Francisco at the first node summit, and I've got with me two guys who are Really key in the node community. I've got Daniel Shaw who is runs the note-ups or Actually, what is it called? It's just note up. So note up is a podcast note up comm at note up on Twitter and the Note up live is something we organize right before node summit And we also have Chris Williams who's the organizer of JSConf Which was the event that as Ryan doll told us earlier is the place that? No JS basically launched and Chris also Is involved in a startup. I think it's probably the coolest startup. I've seen here. It's called. Oh, you're being too kind Thank you though. I definitely appreciate that Aging safely. Yes, and Daniel also works at Voxer, which is you know, what a big node JS adopter we interviewed Matt Raimi earlier So where do you guys? Think that the node community is going. I mean it's grown. It's grown incredibly Quickly, I mean is it a sustainable growth? Is it in danger of of growing too fast? It's you know, it's we're at a real sweet spot right now where it's small close knit and everybody knows each other We're definitely going to be going across a threshold in the next year or so where We're bigger than the group of people that are you know, you can keep into your social group So it's gonna be a real challenge for us. We're it's something that a lot of us are thinking about and that we discussed at length at summer camp last last year we're concerned about it and doing our best to You know be inclusive and and you know make everybody feel at home in the community Chris so I kind of have a bit of a different perspective and and by no means is that Contrarian or am I trying to be contrarian my my background is mainly from different languages using JavaScript in different ways and the general broader JavaScript language itself I Have a concern That I voice sometimes sometimes louder than others that the rapid growth may actually be the downfall of node as well Is also the benefit You saw it a bit with rails as it rapidly grew and it came it became the monster that it actually was trying to Combat and I worry that node will just if it doesn't learn from the mistakes of previous Communities it's doomed to repeat it We see trends in computing programming where the new shiny thing lasts for Maybe seven years and by that seventh year a new new shiny thing and in this case it's node and eventually it'll be Something else. I think that the best thing the node community could do those of you at home would be to actually look at arguments that the scholar community the Erlang community the Python community the Ruby community are making against Node and instead of fighting it with oh you you're wrong Try to understand the argument embrace it figure out if there's a solution and a path that can work Or if it's just a complete troll argument and just ignore it I worry that the hype actually ends up hurting Node on both sides because there's a lot of negative hype as well as also positive hype And if we could figure out as programmers how to just be programmers and not be Rubyists or node people I think we'd all be happier and I think There's been a lot of talk here about polyglots, but seriously it's right tool right task node can't solve everything It just can't I mean I do disagree. I don't disagree. No I totally agree and and you know the the lessons of Brails and You know it's meteoric rise and and how it you know became a little bit too clickish, maybe You know want to try to You know avoid having that in In note and that's that's it's a challenge. I mean the There's a there's a large segment of the node community that's here in San Francisco I don't know if there's someone coming from outside of San Francisco You get a sense that like all the cool kids are here and then there is that side, right? I yeah, so you know I moved out here at the beginning of this year because I Really was excited about programming node and I was working programming Java and I wanted to program node, you know as my as my day job and San Francisco You know a year ago was the only place that you really do it and you know make a real career out of it That's starting to change now. There there are lots of great opportunities all over the world But I very much see that there's You know it's still San Francisco centric and there's you know a lot of core that's here Well, I think that maybe it's that a lot of companies are doing it but not as public, right? Which is part of growing up It's people don't want to put out that they're using it yet because it's a is this gonna succeed We don't want to necessarily be the ones out on the forefront and get cut by the razor But we want to be out at the forefront so that way when it stabilizes right there and we're kicking butt I know that I live in DC, so I'm about as far from San Francisco as I think you can get in the United States and It's a different culture. We're still dealing with large enterprise government contracts that demand Java and so in some realms It's a different type of world, but by no means does that limit you I know just through the node jam There was at least four companies out of DC that are doing all node based programming Which is really cool to see maybe not all but hybrids of node and other languages Yeah, I there's actually an impressive percentage of companies in no jam that are not from San Francisco You know, there's this core group of the node Community that's here in San Francisco, but you know as as no jam demonstrates, you know, it's getting adoption all over the United States And you know I was in Italy over Christmas and you know got to go meet the guys and at the the Rome node meetup group and you know, they're they're trying their best to Bring node and explore node, you know, they're going against the grain with this, you know For them, it's really really new technology, you know Here in San Francisco, you know, we've kind of accepted node and it's quote-unquote proven They're you know just trying to introduce it at their jobs and justify Using notice on their products. Now when you say proven proven do you want to put that in like quote? No, no, I prove like proven as in You know Boxer has Millions of users every day that you know run on top of node, but it's not just node. It's also running on C You guys are doing the PCAP work. No, no, no, okay. It's no no. We are node redis and React so redis and react is Erlang right so we have You can't stack we have a stack we can't there's no sane way we can do A database and you know the only insane person it is Tim Caswell Doing you know a database in node. He is I would love to I would love to Be You know purely in node with a database, but you know the right tool is for the job, right? I'm I only wanted to put the air quotes on just because we're at Arguably an infancy in the language. There are things that could pop up that just because we haven't Tread through the woods in these pieces Maybe it's just my cynical view, but we still find security holes all over the place in v8 Not even in node not anything that node could do but because we rely on all these different pieces I always get worried when we jump to Proven so quickly and I'm not saying it might not end up being that way But I just I try to make everyone be a little bit I think that you know a Solid architectural way going forward. We put a lot of effort into you know making node work and like we're You know pushing so much data that we've we found you know edges in in And in flaws inside of node that you don't you wouldn't expose in an express app You know getting you know a few million hits a day, but you know if you're doing you know massive amounts of data You all concurrently It stresses the the language and you know we've we found issues with buffers Inside of know that that basically would not have been exposed unless it was at that scale So I run into different sort of things. I'm trying to scale down No, so node won't compile on smaller chipsets Oh, and more arguably fringe, but as arm chipsets become more and more popular It's more and more critical So that's why just to put the air quotes around proven proven means everywhere all the time air-quote proven just means We're using it right Yeah, we haven't we haven't we haven't gone crazy I don't think I don't think any language closure included at this point say that it's a proven language It might be proven in some cases, but not all cases Or well skull has been around for a bit, but there's there's one of the benefits of having years underneath your belt Absolutely JavaScript the language has those years Which is a huge benefit for node But we still find things that are edge cases in case I'd like to take it back to community Yeah One thing that you know it keeps coming up when we talk about the Java the node.js community is how inclusive it is I But you know it and as you said that that might become more difficult as it grows, but how do you? Accomplish that what how could another open source community? You know what what's your advice to another community to to achieve what node.js has maybe Maybe not in terms of the speed of growth, but in the inclusivity of it. I'm just remembering that everyone matters and they have Their point of view is you know a solid contribution and like We're as a language in the community so young, you know Someone who's old in the community is like two years. You know, that's not that that long so, you know people coming in and Approaching new things doing different things with node have new and useful perspectives that you know, we need to keep in mind and You know, we might be in Some subset or some corner of node that really works for what we're working on right now But the fact that that people are doing it using it and in different ways makes the entire community richer and You know makes the language stronger and helps us find, you know bugs that that what we're we've been working on that little like segment of it We're working on, you know, it's not necessarily gonna stress as much in the JavaScript community is It seems pretty similar Inclusive, but it's been around longer. It's been growing Sort of we've had we've had like ebbs and flows so sure you had Ajax experience during sort of the bubble and the Xhr giddiness and My wife and I started JSConf Four years ago and one of the things that we tried to do in building JSConf was keep things small and intimate If you actually know somebody face-to-face and have had a shared experience with them You're less likely to be like that guy is a Some nasty word or be very aggressive in a response It's there's a human as long as you remember there's a human we find that community works a lot better We've We've every year we've tried different things and I think for any other language keeping the intimacy the Meeting every person the connection and then also having some deeper beliefs that are just beyond programming When we do JSConf we try to make it a family event and and by that I mean you don't leave Going that was a good event you leave going I made some really deep friendships here And you know I may not see them until I come to San Francisco once a year But I could call up anyone and be like hey kind of crashed your place and they'd be fine with that So we try to make it Come in together and I know other communities are doing that and it's all in sort of picking the right values I'd say and which seems weird. It seems like that shouldn't be in the tech sphere But it really does matter so like JSConf we run the budget to zero and whatever money We don't spend at the conference. We donate back We donated last year And announced to the JSConf Over $3,000 to gender and racial diversity outreach programs and that sets the right tone for the community that we want to change The lack of gender and racial diversity But it's not something that you can just do overnight It's something that's going to take a long period of time So we want to get started changing future generations now Something else you do that impressed me is you have the significant other track We do so that you know when you come to the the conference You're not just leaving your your spouse or your partner that home or you're not just leaving them at the hotel Either this comes from it being a husband and wife team that puts it on Uh, my wife is awesome and we came I went to a conference in Toronto It was a ruby fringe and they actually had it so I get no credit for coming up with the idea It changes the whole dynamic if you're a male or a female at a conference There's a general tendency to go out drinking and and Maybe networking a little bit too much Um, whereas if your spouse is there It keeps it at sort of a professional level, which is very nice and um, they are happy because they're doing stuff They're not cooped up in the room and it really keeps that whole family sense back in the conference And so I encourage anyone who's running a conference to do to consider doing a significant other track So it's an idea run with it Okay And is there anything else you'd like to say to the javascript community the node js community or or about the communities? Um, so there's something you know, we're we're uh going to be exploring uh doing the live know it up a little bit more Looking for some venues. We might do something itself by Southwest And maybe try to do something in Europe later this year. Uh, if you're interested in sort of helping and doing that Uh, you know lineup live is just us going out and sharing and talking to the community It's not you know anything. It's it's a very you know grassroots level like a public forum like town hall meetings It's not a public forum. It's you know, it's a group gathering You know something we have in san francisco is almost every night. There's a some sort of a tech event And it's an office somewhere and you know, there's a lot of uh Speaking and you know, what we really enjoy most is getting together and geeking out and Talking about what we're working on and sharing ideas. So You know, that's the kind of thing that we want to share and that's one of the things we try to share with with the podcast and You know Another thing with with note up if uh, you have ideas for we've been doing deep dives We did a deep dive on npm. We did deep dive on database if there are topics that you uh, want to Want us to cover Definitely, you know note up and Yeah, send those our way we look forward to to exploring some of this work. All right chris Uh, if you're listening at home or watching at home, uh Before you go posting anything on the internet Just think take two seconds think is this negative. Am I being a little bit over Breaching and that applies for all technology communities. I made a big call at js.com for you this year to try to change our our mode of operation there's a Of negative bias that permeates every single media channel in in the whole technology sphere And it's a lot of bitter infighting and it it really doesn't help anything Um, if if somebody comes at you try to take a step back See what the problem is don't go immediately throwing back Spears and knives and don't go plus oneing onto piles that that really, you know Maybe two people should just have it out not have the audience or the arena of people cheering them on Um, if we could do that, I think the whole technology field as as a total group Could be a lot happier in a lot better place Great. Well, thanks a lot guys. We're gonna take a break and then we're gonna do a wrap-up All right. Thank you Okay, we're back day two of node summit live in San Francisco, California I'm john furrier and this is the cube our final wrap-up session with the silicon angle crew Alex Williams and clint finley Um, want to just say thanks to all you folks watching out there mark hopkins and kean for producing Great job. We're at the end of our broadcast here at the cube and node summit has been an amazing experience for me and Learned a lot met a lot of new people Understood a lot more about the community and the capabilities of node.js Which is this is what it's all about node summit is the inaugural conference for the node community and Alice and clint. Let's just kind of wrap this up. Let's kind of put a bow on this event here And and what do we learn? I mean, I you know, I I learned, you know, I'll start I mean, I learned that node is a lot more real and legit and high performance Than I thought it was and I kind of did my homework, you know, I was excited by the possibilities of it But I really love that how legit it is and and one of my comments in an earlier cube was I'd categorize this as a hurricane for a category for hurricane mainly because Some tiles up falling off the building roofs trees are coming down So there's some disruption in the technical theater and the business theater And you're seeing that here we're seeing vcs here funding companies a lot of startups and the geeks So it's legit. What are you guys learning? Let's talk about what we've learned Ben I think what what I saw that that's sticking with me the most is that there are some pretty serious unresolved controversies in In in the way node relates to other technologies Talking to node skeptics. There's a lot of discussion of things like java's neti framework Python's twisted framework or the capabilities that are in the programming language airlang and Some people say well node does certain things better than those or that you can do certain things easier in node than you can do it Do with those But on the there's other people who say well, no, that's not true You could just you could totally do something so much easier and twisted than you could in in node And I I haven't seen any resolution to that So I I guess maybe that's a cop out of this. I didn't really Learn something that was an observation I think that speaks to the community too. It's a very young community and the people here a lot of them are Very innovative and the the level of sophistication I saw in the startups was was much greater than I've seen in other You know in other events that I've been where there's been startup competitions. And so that's encouraging um I think that There's just going to have to be some maturing and like how these front end really these front end developers for the most part Interact with the bat, you know and learn more about those about the systems behind it Sure, but there were there were some people here who uh, you know, they weren't front end developers They were there back in developers. You just saw the the potential to to use To do something really simple in java script to for sure But I think that you know, I think that there's this There is this perception of like it's real-time capabilities and you know ability to do so much so easily Uh, but there's not that deeper understanding of the of the systems behind it. Well, I mean, I think that's what's theos Uh slash nagers a view of that the operation side is a lot, but different from the software side Which is the programming side, but but it's clear to me though, alex on that point that there is some advantages Real advantage and we're seeing the demos here and the actual products where node is specifically a benefit Like voxer we're seeing some of the companies upstairs handling the chat stuff There's some specific product benefits that are actually realized today Right. Um, so, you know, the question of how that affects Ops and the scale point is a whole another conversation. I think that's Worth watching and I learned that was one of my big learning points was This it's great on that side the devops side the programming their rapid iteration the agile programming All that stuff ain't that goes on in an open source and commercialization of these kinds of products But in the real world in these big enterprises in these big service providers There's a real ops issue around systems performance That is a whole nother league of its own So I think that's something that I learned that that it's actually pretty obvious when you think about it, but it's Clear that there's two two worlds So it's that was interesting I there's some things that I really find quite compelling about you know about what we're seeing again Those real-time capabilities the way that platforms are emerging for You know delivering messages, you know that For instance, you know to multi-player MMO goes they call multiplayer games um And how those are you know and how those there's kind of like this ecosystem emerging that's that's building very very quickly and You know, Stephen O'Grady was saying on on the cube earlier today that he's never seen anything grow as quickly as node J s has and he says he's never seen um a technology go into the trough of disillusionment so fast and He thinks that's where we are now and he's just uncertain if it's been If it's been spit out the other side and now it's going to really grain mainstream acceptance But I think the chances are that it will that came up that came up a lot actually the the excitement of node But also the fear if you will around the hype Or or is it over hyped? I mean, it's legitimate in my mind. So I just want to make that clear. I do not think it's hyped up However, given all the activity it could be misconstrued as super hyped But so that's where I think I I kind of felt and heard specifically That you know wondering and we had a getting ahead of our skis as as Charles Bieler said and some other folks So that's interesting and growing so fast You know it's still young. Yeah Yeah, I I think where it's going to be resilient is is in its community and That and that's been really clear is that there's a community that's Like paradoxically Tighten it but really inclusive So, you know, everybody knows everybody knows each other But they they also make a good effort to bring in people And and that's going to be hard to maintain that that level of inclusiveness as as the community grows but having that having that that community Movement is is what's going to keep node around it's what it's going to keep node improving We we didn't get Isaac on the guy that created the node package manager But that's a big part of node is how it how you can extend it with the with add-ons and modules Uh, you know, it's it's a platform. So there's you know, there's other things. There's express. There's socket io There's so there's you know, there's all this value being created. It's it's a lot like a dupe We talked about I think john you said it last night like this is the web 2o era Essentially passed and now we're entering a new era node really is no jazz is representative of that Yeah, I mean, I think you know what ajax was always kind of like oh ajax He kind of things on web 2.0 But actually web 2.0 never really materialized in my mind at least and you can see that with you know What's happened with some of the websites that cover web 2.0? They kind of turned into more about google apple and whatever But like I think this is really about what web 2.0 is about because you're talking about web apps And mobile amplifies the value when you see that kind of performance around the io So i'm excited and I think you know the community side what I Learned and I think this was kind of how we branded it in our conversation earlier is that the community I would has been described here in the cube as respectful and professional So to me, I think really my observation of the community is it's young still close knit But what's really impressive to me clint and alice is that it's respectful and professional and that's kind of do Really good justice for those guys as they start to reach out as we heard in the last panel Around working with other open source projects and there's a very open collaborative approach Very socially integrated, but I like that professionalism. It's a it's a breath of fresh air as far as I'm concerned So that's going to be a big plus for them Yeah, I agree and you know One of the things is so you get so refreshing here is you do see You see the power of the ecosystem In terms of the services that people are using, you know and and how that's helping really helping No j s grow for instance github. I think github is a real kind of catalyst, you know for for the growth of no j s In other ways too, but you know, we have the the device market has just exploded, right? And there's all types of different services you can use to either build apps So that's you know that that that market where we're going to start to see rapid You know the rapid capability to build applications is really good I think in a fire this up big data mobile all those trends are really coming together At a great time. We'll just have to see how big this event is next year Yeah, I mean other things that I observed and learned and you know watched is the The systems architectures is a mindset. We've heard that over and over again that node is a mindset You know the browser HTTP is first class citizens or some quotes So you got that notion that you got some more systems capabilities with node that was impressive It made me think more about those systems challenges that theos lost nager pointed out And the other thing that I observed or watched and learned here was the entrepreneurial activity. So And there's two points to that one is there's a lot of entrepreneurs here who are really doing some coding Doing some good work the node jam here on day two is tons of startups bootstrapped and that highlights the value proposition of cloud computing You know low cost to get into the market and they could rapidly develop and get something out there That's functional and can deliver value. Yes. So I'm really impressed with that That being said, I do not think that there's a lot of companies here that are that are venture backable. I'll tell you why A lot of the companies here look like features and they don't look like a real company in my mind in terms of the Classic venture capital. So I think traditional venture will reject most of these companies Instead the angel market is so robust now with white combinator and angel list They're all viable under seed and angel funding because the vcs can let those accelerators do the work But the vcs are struggling with this because you know, we were talking about it earlier, you know yesterday and They understand that the costs to actually develop apps is so far less And they don't need that much capital, but their funds are not really designed not not structured I got some email I got some emails from some vc friends who knew watching the program and you know, they always watch the cube But the comment to me was off the record And I won't name the source of the vc was I won't fund any of those companies there What I'll do is I'll let the angel guys angel list and white combinator vet him out for me I found that very interesting But I think that's consistent around some of the other vcs I talked to but I'll tell you what's good about all this One there's a lot of angel capital out there through angel list and white combinator So it doesn't cost that much to get these teams formed. However, I think you're going to see more failure Then successes and I think that's actually going to be a good thing. I'll tell you why this community is so respectful and professional I think you'll see companies get formed out of those failures. Yes You better companies because of the experimentation and the tinkering of node Will create more skills and create I think derivative ventures where people will find each other out in the community Yeah, well, there's there's another possible scenario there in in terms of the venture funding and and how it could play out though You know, we've been seeing a lot more of what people are calling uh talent acquisitions, I forget the the sort of funny buzzword Portman do of it Aquee higher aquee higher Yeah, and I think that could be what you see a lot of here because you said a lot of these look like features Web 2.0 went through a lot of that too. Really what they were doing was they were building something that they wanted to sell to google yeah, and uh I don't know that a lot of these these guys here are are saying. Well, I want this is a feature I want to sell to To google or microsoft, but that's still I think A pretty likely outcome for some of these things or just frankly just talent I mean, you know salesforce.com is growing like crazy through their acquisitions They want the talent or they want some of the ip, you know, or you know, just one particular feature So, you know, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I think a lot of companies Won't have a chance to fail because Somebody will want to buy them for some for some other reason and we know we know how it's so hard to hire I mean, look at how twitter look how twitter was formed twitter was formed because of evan williams failure with odium Right and they get kicking around So I think when you have these emerging environments where you have these communities The cross pollination around the entrepreneurs will be really important So I think that's what i'm interested in watching as well as I think failure is not bad here Because there's so much skill acquisition that these developers are getting through node that no matter what their outcome is on their venture They're going to be viable in any way whether they go work for a big company Or where they hook up with another entrepreneur and do something bigger So I think the market will play that out, you know, and I just think by my final takeaway here is like This is such a refreshing event. I mean, it's so invigorating to see these people that really young people Developing really amazing stuff and that that's really what you know, what it's about just to be You know to to see something and to have to have it thought through and whole new dimensions That is that is a true essence of innovation. Yeah, I would I would agree I would just say in in closing. This is a great event great technology One of the most exciting moments as an aside this week Here was the fact that we launched devops angle. Yes So for the folks out there alex and clint have been launching these vertical publications first one was services angle And the diamond sponsor there is emc and that's all about the services and the systems and the criticals infrastructure around You know big enterprise and this week we launched devops angle, which is all about The emerging cloud node.js these emerging communities that really are going to make a difference in rapid application development And I couldn't be more pleased guys than the validation that we got from del Yes, I show my t-shirt here. Yeah, you show the t-shirt. There we go. Thank you. Del. Thank you very much computer has stepped up to be the diamond sponsor for devops angle calm a new publication within the silicon angle network And so alex and clint will be doing double time between devops angle and services angle So we'll have the ops world covered in the dev world covered like a blanket So look for all the coverage on services angle and dev ops and please reach out to us if you're interested in writing You know about devops or if you're interested in writing about this whole new world of services We're we're actively looking for people either as contributors or even as writers who we hire on a part-time basis We'd like to add more sponsors to it. We're going to do it very much like the nascar logo like the events You know platinum sponsor gold silver and then we have special sponsorships for startups so That helps us build this great content and hire more people and of course the cube We'd love to go to the events and we're going to you'll see us more this year at a lot of events Our next event is coming up the o'reilly strata conference and that's going to be really a great show because that Really continues this conversation about devops and cloud with big data and that is all coming together It's a beautiful world. It's a great time guys. It's uh, you know, we've been doing cloud mobile social for a few years now And everything's coming right into our wheelhouse And it's very exciting times of silicon angle. So well, thank you very much john This is it's great to to be part of this this group Right. Thanks john. Thanks keenin mark. Yeah, thanks on the other side of the cameras all day every day All right, and thank you guys for watching all the readers out there silicon angle.com silicon angle.tv You'll see all the reruns on silicon angle.tv. There'll be a channel for there for uh, Node and we'll advertise that on twitter Stay tuned and if you want more on twitter go to node summon as the hashtag And we'll be communicating on that in the back channel And publishing more and more content every day. So that's a wrap from uh, node summit It's live in san francisco the innovative node.js is off off the platform taken flight node summit is coming to an end and