 Hello and Namaste. I'm Divina Gupta and you're on WorkLife India on the BBC, a show that looks into everything that we do in our lives and the work we do. This session is from the World Economic Forum. We are at the India Economic Summit, which is being organised by the World Economic Forum and also the Confederation of the Indian Industries. Now, did you know that India ranks 57 at the Global Innovation Index? Well, that's right. And as Indian government is also pushing for more and more scientists to take the leap, are we leaving women's scientists behind? So we are asking what's holding women back in the field of science? Well, to talk about the entire arena that's open for women and the potential that they have to make sure that India can take the giant tech leap and leave the mark in the world, we have some exceptional voices with us today. And let me start by introducing them. We have Sabine Klock, who is joining us. Sabine has been head of engineering or one of the leading aviation companies, Airbus, for the defence and space vertical. You've been working in France, Sabine, isn't it? And these are two rare combinations for somebody who gave up gymnastics at a very young age and took up soccer to be playing with boys. Yes, actually, that's right. I have been playing soccer. And that was maybe part of the things which made it for me. I had the privilege to be brought up in total equality. I had a bigger brother. And I was just always following him. And the second thing which maybe made it was, yes, we moved house quite a lot of times and then I was always different. And I put it always on this. Maybe there was something else as well. Well, we'll talk all about that. But welcome. We also have Dr. Ruchi Saxena. She is director of India Flying Labs. She works with drones. And drones in a sector which needs it the most, which is the India's healthcare sector. You're trying to bridge the gap between the medical needs at the grass root levels in India with technology. When did it all start, Ruchi? Because you're a doctor by profession and in junior also by the profession of your choice now. Exactly, Devina. So this has been the story of my life. I started off as a doctor. But within a year, I was pulled out of my clinic and put into data mathematics to work with the software engineers because I had some perspectives and they were developing a system. So they said, why don't you work with the software engineers and tell them what exactly the doctors and the patients want? So that's where my combination of the medical and the engineering began. Alongside the management, the quality and the systems, it all kind of just started. The transformation happened when I got married in 2009. My husband is from Nepal. And that's where I kind of transported from Mumbai to a place in the far west of Nepal. And you see the polar opposite. But you see that you have a very comfortable life where everything is just available outside the doorstep. And here people still have to walk for four to five hours to reach the nearest health center. And that was kind of an eye opener because this is a truth for 80% of world population. It is a comfortable life that we have that doesn't allow us to see beyond our comfort zones. But everywhere else, even let's say you go to Nandurbar and you have a tribal population, the nearest blood bank is at 92 kilometers. Absolutely. And that's why you thought there could be a solution with technology with your background. So well, that's an interesting and inspiring story, Ruchi. I'm going to call you Ruchi for this session, though. We also have Sarah Zen. She is from China. She's founder and CEO of points technology, which provides block based solution and confidential computation in banks and other financial services. And Sarah, tell me if this is wrong. You actually started your first website when you were 16 years old. Yes, I had my personal website then. Yeah. And is that when you started your interest in science? Yeah, I've always been very interested in new science and technology. My father is an engineer in terms of training. So he always broke it down about what's the approach to solve problems. And that gave me the lens of seeing how to tackle some of the challenges in life as well. Yeah. Tackle challenges in life with science. I like that actually. I'm a science student myself, but journalism got better out of me for the record here. We also have Pritika Mehta. I think you're the youngest in this panel, Pritika, 27 year old. She's a bright coder, not shy about her age because you're the youngest, I guess. You actually loved maths. You're from the city of Chandigarh. Is that the starting point of a science interest? Yes, definitely. Maths was my first love. And I knew if I want to be successful, I need to do something that is, you know, choose a career in maths. And that is how I got introduced to coding. And I started coding when I was 14. And I just loved, you know, that with just a computer, I could create things with maths coding. And I was a painter as well. And, you know, I always wanted to create things. And that is the reason why I chose computer science. I must say this is a very overwhelming panel. We have all bright students here. And I feel completely under the table. For my record, I don't like maths at all. And that's been my reckoning in life, I guess. But hey, here we are. All right, so let me start by asking globally, there are about 30% of women who are scientific researchers globally. India, that number comes down to 14%. So Sabine, am I right in saying that there is a challenge for women when they want to step out and pursue this field? I think first of all, everybody had that challenge. But for women, I think there is a lot of social binary, which is, which is still set and which is still set. And I, and I think even I always felt it normal what I did. And I only learned over time that maybe I was not, I was a bit privileged maybe in thinking this, but it was normal for me to do what I wanted to do. So I did it. And I never had a big problem with this. But if I'm seeing now the, the generations and I have a small child as well, how the subtle setting in the society is still there. And the ways we play the ways we set norms, I think there is a challenge. And it's maybe even more there because it's this subtlety. There is actually a challenge if it also seen in different cultural contexts to feel in India, for example, which you were mentioning, you wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. But why didn't you pursue your dream? You could have been in the other chair with Sabine. So I mean, the protectiveness of the parents, it kind of keeps you. And when I was trying to, I wanted to make flying cars even back then, right? Since I think, since six standard flying cars had this in my mind, I make flying car, something which can be parked in my garage. And I used to discuss it with the whole world. This is what I want to do. When the time came, I got just the right marks to get into that college. But the college was in Missouri. And my mom was like, why Himalayas and the cold and the temperatures there and you're not used to it. And you will not be comfortable. And so there was not a permission to go beyond it. And even I did not try to break the boundaries. And I was like, okay, let's stay closer home and let's pursue my second love, which is homeopathy. And because I love the systems which are there in homeopathy. So this is how I didn't do it that time. But you know, the life comes full circle. But what would have been different if you were a boy? I guess yes, because my brother went to a hostel I never went. Well, Sarah, is this similar in China? Is there a discrimination that families subconsciously or consciously do practice, which is holding women back? So it's interesting because I was born and raised in Shanghai. Shanghai is the city in China where men are supposed to do the housework. So it's not that women don't do housework, but the expectation is different. So but I think things have really changed a lot. When I was in middle school, if you because I went to science talent programs, it's true that there are only a handful of female in a class of 50. But these days, there are really a lot of female entrepreneurs. China also had the largest number of self-made female billionaires around the world. So things really have changed a lot. I think something has to do with mandatory education system for sure. And also there is an element of the consequence of the one child policy as well. Because in my generation, every household only have one kid. No matter if you're a girl or boy, you are required to go to school for nine years. And it's very strictly implemented. A lot of the school system is focusing on standardized tests. So even if there is some level of assumptions, maybe male are better at science and engineering. But when the grades come out, it's very loud and clear. Objectively, some of the girls are ranking top of the class. And because the admission criteria is all about the scores. So there's always a pretty fair balance about how to you pursue that. I think and also seeing the role models around the society, I really think things have changed a lot. We take a much less gendered lens in seeing what you can accomplish in life. But let me add to that a data from UNESCO actually, which is compiled between 2014 and 16 says that only 30% of female students around the world select STEM, which is science, technology, engineering, and maths. Fields of higher education, maths and stats have only 5% women. And Pritika, what is it that stops women from choosing these fields? Because you were the one who liked it, but your peers actually did not. So what is it that is an initial hesitancy in the mind? And is it also because of certain gender stereotyping that we see in our society? Yes. So when it comes to machine learning, it is a, you know, comparatively newer field. And when it's when it comes to careers for girls, I would say majority of the households, the parents are the ones who decide what the girl is going to do and what she's not going to do. So they always want to have a safe career for their daughter. So yes, that is one, you know, a thing that stops more and more women taking more risks and trying new things in terms of data and STEM. And then when it comes to stereotypes, yes, you know, a lot of women, when I was in college, 50% of my class had girls. But now if you see that how many of those girls are continuing their career as an IT person, I would say hardly 5%. But it's interesting what you said, safer careers, what does that mean safer careers safer careers is like in India, you know, women opting for being a doctor or a teacher is considered a safer option, as in what I, you know, I have heard in the societies, it would be easier for you to find a groom. And, you know, the acceptance in the society will be higher. This is, you know, the real truth. This is what Let's let's take a sample from the audience, because I could hear some muffling around there, clearly from the men's side. But do you feel that this is actually true in India that women are often persuaded when they are girls to take careers as Pritika said, which are safer so that they can find a groom. Yes, we have the lady in the blue in the front who wants to answer. Yes, ma'am, if you could please stand up and introduce yourself. My name is Urvashi Sani. And well, I'll corroborate that that I know when I was in grade nine. And I filled in my form, we were asked to choose at that time between a science stream or humanity. And I filled in science. And my father tore the form, saying that no girls don't take science. And in terms of safer, I think what he meant even doctor, that it takes too long. And it will be too late for you to get married. So what actually happens in India is that marriage is the big God, which will determine what girls can do or cannot do. This is not a decision they take. And the other thing I run schools. And I know that the teachers sometimes have been discouraging girls from taking math and science, and saying that it's too difficult. And there I think what is happening is that there is an over mystifying of math and science and over glorifying, which I really think is unfair. So the way we did it with it was saying that, you know, it's like any other subject. It's as difficult or as easy as any other subject. And anybody can do it. And so the fact is that, first of all, it's not so difficult. It's like anything else. I'm taking my mass tuition from you. Yes. Yeah. And secondly, I want to get back to it. And secondly, to make sure and again, then D and then deconstructing the stereotype that it's not as the girls are less smart. In fact, they are smarter. But more importantly, you don't need to be so smart to take math and science. Anybody can do it. So that's the way we deal it with it. But in India, definitely, one of it is because of marriage is almost compulsory for all girls. And somehow it'll take too long. And it will take you away from the home. And the other thing is that women are expected to carry the burden of household chores. Boys are not expected to do it, unlike Shanghai. Let me get the male perspective here. Anybody here who would like to add on to what she said that men actually do not participate equally in household work? What are the men here saying? Do you participate equally in household work? Yes, I can see Sabine giving an indication. Come on. Any man who would like to actually defend themselves is saying, no, we actually do it. Yes, please give me the mic here in the front. Oh, well, she's testifying the gentleman with the green tie. Yes, please. Hello, my name is Alberto Gutierrez. I'm working also in Airbus. And I just, yes, I do. I like, I like cooking. And the one that is cooking at home. And with my wife, we share 50, I mean, we don't, we don't make calculation about how much everyone contributes. Everybody is doing what is doing best. Well, I just heard the committee is not Indian, but well done, sir. I will, I will applaud you. And I hope the groom that I'm looking for has some qualities that you have. But Sabine, I remember having this discussion with you where you said that, yes, there is a sense in which girls are asked to play with Barbies. Boys are asked to play with GI Joes. If it's about fixing a washing machine, it's always a man. If it's about washing clothes, it's a woman. So are we being conditioned in a way so that women are always looking for softer choices? Or is it changing? I think it's on one hand, it's changing in our minds. But on the other hand, if you look at the big industry for playing goods, the Legos, there is still now there is a lot of different choices, but there is still a very much distinct area for the women choices and another one which is very much different for the boys. So this is what I meant with Saptle. It's not so much visible, but finally it is. And this is actually paving the way. So it's really like stepping back at each step and to see, OK, how can I ask my child to question these things? Ruchi, you're also a mother, and did you face problems when you were pregnant and expecting a child and continuing with the job and at a time when you wanted support of your organization to be the scientist that you are? And they said, sorry, it's not our concern. Was there support or it was the other way around? Yeah. I mean, as you heard me, yeah, it was the other way around. So I was doing like great things in the organization and we were planning a child as well and the contract was supposed to be renewed. So I just requested a place closer to my house, an office closer to my house where I can go and I don't have to travel in the local train of Mumbai and then reach a place. But I was like, bluntly refused, no, we're not giving you an exception. So then I decided to just discontinue and go on my own way as a consultant, as a private consultant. That kind of got me the next few leaps in my career as well because I learned about Lean Six Sigma, I worked as a quality auditor, I worked as a consultant, as a trainer. It got me several more leaps by just leaving that comfort zone out. But that was the option, you weren't actually given an option, you had to leave the job, which you took as an opportunity to learn more and upgrade your skillset. I mean, in certain pregnancy, we hope that if my salary continues, I'm kind of securing my child's career, you know, I have something to look back on. But that support system was taken away. Sarah, is this similar to when you are planning a child and if they, are these sort of, is it a norm in China as well that you expect the woman to perhaps sacrifice a career for a child or is the system more accommodating? So I think as a matter of fact, women spend more time taking care of their babies in general. But I think in society there's a lot more discussions around how to more evenly balance the workload. Some of the companies, for example, Google in China, they actually give men three months paid paternity leave when their wife starts to have babies. Because one study shows, because people think men don't know how to take care of babies, but actually women don't know how to take a baby either from the beginning. It's that in the first three months, the man never had time and opportunity to expose to the learning curve. And by the time then women try to YouTube and listen to their mother's mother-in-law and study all the skills, that man will be like, okay, we're all good, now you have learned and I don't know how to do this. So having paternity leave actually gives the equal opportunity to enjoy the benefits and learn how to take care of the baby together and also it's very rewarding for both men and women. So I think that's very important. Interesting, because you actually mentioned in France there is a similar cultural expectation of women to balance and lead a double-weight life. As you said, home and work, and it's about home first and work later. So actually in Europe we always tend to compare between the different European culture. So I'm living in France for 10 years now, but I'm in German. And in Germany we tended to work home first, then work for the women and a lot of women actually did the right studies, did the great studies and then finally after maternity leave it's very very difficult to reintegrate. In France it was much more equal, at least for the first step. So we have more women for long, for 30 years already, but they all had the double-weight. So it is the woman which is organizing. It is the mother organizing, having the mental weight as well to organize it all. In Germany for 10 years, 10-15 years now, we started to have paternity leave as well, and it was a bit forced by our chancellor to really make it a habit, which first of all brought everybody family holidays, long family holidays for a lot of them, but there's a lot as well which this brought the discussion into it. And this is actually, I think it's still like everybody has to find the good way for himself and herself. And most of the time with the direct environment in work, with the boss, with the colleagues. And I have to say yes, I took much longer to have my first child than maybe I would have done. A lot of women are delaying marriages in India. Is it true Pratika, that marriage decision that would have been a norm, perhaps 27 years of age, most of the women are expected to get married and now delaying it. They want to be keeping their career first. And is it a tough choice when you're a scientist as well? Because then obviously you are an intellectual person looking for somebody to match your skill set. And is that a hindrance sometimes when you want to meet people? So yes, age in India, especially for girls, oh my god, you know, it's a huge barrier when it comes to career. So at 25, you're expected to get married. And then at 27, 28, you're expected to have the child. So I think with, you know, the urban generation, yeah, today men are supportive, but not everybody. You know, you find men who think differently, who think, yes, you know, the women should be equal and we should divide our responsibilities equally. So there is change happening, but at a very slower pace. Okay, what about pay gap? I mean, do we feel in the room that there is a genuine pay gap in the science field? Any takers? Show of hands perhaps? Anybody who feels that there is a pay gap between men and women when it comes to different fields in science? Yes? Okay, the lady in the green kurta, please, in the front? Yes, ma'am. If you can introduce yourself and please tell us. Yeah, I am Galyani. I don't think this parity is existing even outside science. I think it's across, okay? And it's also the proverbial glass ceiling does exist. For example, I've taken a sabbatical for nine years. So whenever I go back, a female HR consultant says, was it your maternity break? I said, no, I've had two kids, but this is a very informed decision that I want to be with my children while they are growing up. That's not recognized as a valid reason for you to take a break. So one is pay, the other is when you're returning professionals, they're not taking it very seriously. And, okay, for example, I work as a food blogger. I've been running my blog for nine years. They say, food blogger, okay, is that a profession? Okay, so I mean, it's not taken very seriously. But so we only have these representations of few corporates wanting to take returning professionals. And it's not across science. For example, I'm not a science graduate, but I love science as a subject, as a subject, which is why I'm here as well. So, but the fact remains that not many corporates in India are very open to taking non science graduates or, for example, management professionals to go back to the drawing board. Okay, okay. I'm trying to focus a little bit on the pay gap aspect that you mentioned because according to the World Economic Forum report itself, it's going to take 108 years to bridge that for women and men in any field, as you rightly said. There is a campaign right now in the UK where 100 business women have come together. They're calling it meat to pay, which means that they're demanding equal pay. What's the situation in the science field, is there a pay gap in the field that you're in? I think objectively there is one. I mean, for me personally, I cannot say yes, I'm less paid than my colleagues. I cannot at all tell it. But objectively, we do actually do statistics. And this is basically we take an average pay and the gap is existing. But what about the other other things when you walk in a room, there are all men at the table. And there is a subtle hint of misogyny in the room. And you have to fight your way to make your point. Does that happen? Does that happen often? I actually, I mean, in my career, I always felt, yes, there is a bit more challenge in the beginning. They would all ask a couple of more questions. But once this is over, then it was, yeah, it was okay. Sarah, what about you? Did you feel that there is a hint of misogyny when there are customers who speaking to you if there was a man, they would have had perhaps not asked these questions. It would have been easier for them to trust. It's possible. But I think we try to stay on the objective things, right? Just answer the questions and try to provide evidence and proof. And also it's not my problem. I like that answer. But what do you do then? What are the solutions? Ruchi, what should one do when you're in a situation? It's a room full of blackberry men, as they say, black coats. And they're all staring at you and, you know, trying to intimidate you. How do you hold on your own? What do you rely on? And how do you ensure that your voice is heard in the room? So for me, being independent for the last almost six, seven years now, being my own boss and probably being a boss of many other people are probably just leading a team of collaborators. And mostly in my pictures over the last one year, you will see me as the only girl with all seven, eight men or a whole room full of men. It happens. It happens, especially in robotics when you're talking drones. So in that case, I don't really mind. I don't even if they're checking me out, I don't care. So I continue doing what I'm doing. And my brain is my best support in that case. My words are my strength. And my personality is what takes me further. Absolutely. Well, Prithika, have you ever felt nervous in such situations? Yes. So I'll share a small story with you. So I run my own company and I came across this very big shot investor from India. And I was sharing with him my journey that I returned from US. And he's like, Oh, you missed your family. That's why you came back from US. I'm like, No, you know, I wanted to run my own business and I saw the potential in the Indian market. And that is the reason why I came back to India. And he was not the only one, you know, make such statements. Yeah, they everybody assume, you know, because I was missing my family. And that was the reason. But when I ask my male friends, you know, who also returned from India to start their business, they said, No, nobody asked. Nobody asked. In fact, they say, Oh, you know, you are so determined and ambitious that you left your high paying job in the US to come back to India. So just look at, you know, the bias there is, you know, women, it is very unusual for them to think of women as being ambitious. So if there is no support, and this stereotype exists that, you know, women are not that ambitious as men. How So how do we change this mindset then? How do we get more women in science? Where does it all start? Sabine, where does it all start? And how do you ensure that girls are studying science and women are getting equal opportunities? So we are actually trying to push for it hard. And we have actually studied a little bit. And we've seen that in the age of eight to 10, this is actually where everybody starts to do dreams. And this is where we try to be with the school. So we have a program where every week we have one class from school coming into our premises in our headquarters in Munich. And they are doing like informatics work, actually try to bring the girls into this interest because it's exactly in this age that it's specifically good. Then for sure we work with schools, universities, everywhere to pull, not only women, but to pull the talents. And we do that in the different regions specifically in India. We have a lot of activity as well, because we have engineering teams here for 12 years now. And it's really raised greatly. I think we started with 25 engineers in Bangalore, where now we have 500. And how many women? We are at 13%, which is a little bit less than what we have overall. But even overall, we have 17% women in the whole company. And including all the functions which which we tend to think to start. Ruchi, tell me, what about role models? Because when we actually see even portrayal of women scientists in the mainstream media, it's a very stereotypical portrayal of somebody who's wearing specs, somebody who's you know, a little geeky as the word is used again. But how can we ensure more role models? So I can give you one example from Fiji. So the girl who's leading the flying labs there, she's Amrita. She recently won an award for women to watch in an unmanned aerial space. So what she has been running is a program called fly like a girl in which she trains the girls from schools and colleges into into flying drones. And I'm like so inspired by her that we have planned a kind of revolving world tour when we go to each other's countries and we support all the women through boot camps. So creating my own models is from the community itself. So once you train a girl from the community, she takes over and trains 100 more girls. This is the model you should go instead of we can just start it, we can initiate it, we can be the catalyst of it. But then it should be them who take it forward. So women supporting women. Prithika, you actually train coders and you do a program for encouraging girl coders. Is there is there a reception of this idea within the community in India as well? And or other challenges, is there a hesitancy that why should we do this? Or does it really help? So in India, when you speak of the urban India, yes, parents are, you know, they encourage their daughters to go out and learn these new things because they think they can make careers out of it. In India, yes, new parents, they are very receptive of this and they they are encouraging. A question to everybody here. There's always been a talk of affirmative action as well. In our premier institute in India, the Indian Institute of Technology, only 10% women applicants and those who are enrolled are women, only 10%. So there's an idea that you could have additional quota for girls, let them come and give them seats. Does this work? Does this idea of affirmative action in our educational institutions work? Anyone else as well, please? Does affirmative action work? Yes, the lady with a green shirt, please in the front. Thank you. You have role models for projecting. So I work in educating girls on instem education in tribal areas and have a report where children don't know about existing women scientists as well. And because they say that they don't have it in their textbook. So rather than the quotas giving specially for girls, we need to educate both boys and girls about all the Indian women scientists or like overall in general and give them a role model. So more outreach programs rather than giving a quota because again it will lead to an indifferential imbalance in the system. It's very interesting what you're doing in rural India and when you speak to these parents of these girls, are they willing to participate? And what's the challenge in the mindset that you need to change? How can you do that? So in urban area, yes. So I think this scenario in urban area is very balanced. But when we go to tribal or semi urban or rural areas, they we face challenges like they don't want girls to come to science classes because this thing that it is not relevant to them. And how do you change that? I have a school asking for donation of sewing machine rather than developing a lab. So we are into that. But yes, the stakeholders, the teachers and the principals are very affirmative of giving pursuing of same education in their schools. So yes, we will go. Yes. Yes, we have we have actually a gentleman at the back because it's supposed to be a gender equity. So I don't want to leave the boys and men behind, please. The gentleman at the back in the blue shirt, please, blue shirt, please, sir, if you can stand. Yes. Hi, my name is Mevan. I'm from I'm a global shape from the Colombo hub in Sri Lanka. I also work for a tech startup called Pick Me. So actually in Sri Lanka, this percentage that you talk about is very different. We have now females surpassing the male percentage in the number of graduates across all state universities. Now it's bordering almost towards 60 percent, which is really impressive. But then the problem lies when you go to the workforce, you don't really see all of those exceptional graduates, those first class honours, batch tops coming into the workforce. Now, me being on the employer side of things, when I also try to see to strike a balance in the workforce, I find it extremely challenging because the number of applicants itself is a complete different more game. So it's not just selection quotas. You should also I mean, I think there should be also a lot of work done towards the enthusiasm shown. And also it may come through the empowering process as you've rightly spoken. But also to make sure that girls who are qualified are confident enough to make those choices to take it to the next level of their career. Well, thank you. That's very well said. Yes, we have a gentleman in the red tie, please in the front. Thank you. My name is Philip Bonnier from Switzerland. Actually, we have seen there are a lot of barriers for women difficulties and you emphasize it very well. But I still know a lot of women who are extremely successful on some time, partly because they are women. They are sometimes they are part of my family. They are my close friends. So my question to you is what is a success for formula? How can you take advantage of the fact that you're a woman to to to achieve the goal? Really, I'll put this to the panel because is there an advantage there? Is there an advantage, Sarah, being a woman and you also have the soft skills, as they say, to further your business interests? I actually want to go back to your affirmative question for a bit. I actually think it's OK to improve, increase the quota. And I think you should for two reasons. One, engineering, they can be taught and learned. It's not rocket science. With proper practice, you can learn math, OK? So increasing the quota will not lead to like educating a lot of people who cannot do the job. Two, digital divide is so important. Tech is going to be the highest paying jobs in India, I believe. So improving the gender equality by providing more supply to the workforce is very critical from the beginning. All right, thank you. I really like to come to this. Yes, because for sure, in a big company like ours, we have that discussion for long and we had it for long. Do we put quota yes or no? Ask the woman first, but all against it because we said, now we want to be loved by because we do our things and we want to have the positions because we have done our work. So then at least my opinion evolved and actually we evolved. So I think that we have to take it from the bottom. So we start with the children and so on. But we also have to take it from the top. So then came the question, OK, how do we rise executives? Nobody wants. Then the question came, no, but we don't have any women who would apply for a job who would be ready for a job. Then we put the first quota on. We said for each executive or manager, managerial job, we put at least one woman in the shortlist. That first of all, I said, oh, we don't have any, but this evolved very quickly. And all of a sudden we do have people there and then we manage as well to choose them when they are good. Yeah, we still choose on the criteria, but we help visibility. So this helped. And by that, I think we came to a point as well where we said, yes, the quota in a phase needs to be there really to pull in and to push it. OK, a quick dip poll here. Yes, I'll come to you. A quick dip poll here. How many people feel that there should be an affirmative quota for women in universities and in employment? Yes. OK. That's really a minority in the room at the moment. Sabine, you've got some tough negotiations to do to convince this room, at least. But I want to pick on the gentleman's question as well. Ruchi, perhaps you can take this as well, that is there also an advantage of being a woman scientist? I would like to ask you, sir. I mean, do you find women to be very different from men in the way, at least the way we think or the way we ideate or the way we come up with solutions? Do you find some kind of difference in that? Or you find it's the same, no matter a manager, a women manager or a man manager doesn't make a difference? So if you could take the mic please, yeah. And if you could stand up again and we're just capturing the reaction, yes. In science, I don't really know. In management, I would say yes because there are different, I would say, experiences. I would say, in average, I would say yes, a little bit different. But in the positive way, not in the negative way. So what I have found myself is, for example, when we're having a debate about a topic, let's say you want to invest in a particular community or we don't want to invest. Or should we have a radius of service only to this much or should we include this much? So what I've seen is, I don't know if it's about men or women or it's just individual differences. But when it comes to hard profit hitting or it's about the soft- Skills, yeah. Getting the empathy part of it. So we women tend to think a bit more on the community empathy side that, oh come on, how can you just mess out this community who's living on this edge of your circle? What if there is a women there who's pregnant and needs your drone right away? Would you not be sending it? So they're like, oh come on, it's outside of radius. How can we do that? So we tend to kind of think the way we think. I mean, we bring in our mental things, our caring instincts, our love and our care. But I don't know if it's just individualistic or if it's about across the way the men think. Pritika, do you have a point? Yeah, I think for women we constantly need to fight the system. We need to prove ourselves constantly that we deserve it. That's why we are here. And not because we are women. So, sir, I would disagree there. Okay. Yeah, this is really what I felt. Once you have women there, and because there are so few, they have needed to fight. They needed to find their way. They needed to go for it. And this is actually when I once really found, whenever I got a woman's CV and then qualification was the same, but you could have that extra on top and that was actually making the difference. Well, that's interesting. Any more solutions, I want to throw it open to the audience. Yes, the lady in the black there, please. Any more solutions. And then the lady in a beautiful gray sari. Yes. Hi, so I'm Pari and I'm actually a global shaper as well from the Singapore hub. And the thing that you said, Rajeev, you spoke about how you didn't go to college because the hostel was bad. I think quotas are great, but quotas, no matter what you do, they're still going to be brain drain. I went abroad to study because there's not enough infrastructure here to support me. So, hostel safety. Why did I go to Singapore? It's because it's safe. There's a place for me to stay in a hostel. So if the government or if the corporates could actually develop the infrastructure as well in these colleges, then maybe an IIT will see more women there. The Indian Institute of Technology is what you say. Prithika, you have a point because you actually went to the US for your higher studies. Is it because there was no availability of quotas here or a dose of colleges? And again, the point that lady made about safety for women in colleges here. I think both. First of all, yes. You know, it was safer for me to... So my parents considered that, you know, going to US is a better choice than going to somewhere in India outside home. So that is one part. And... You studied AI, if I'm not wrong. Artificial intelligence there. And the course, is it available in India? Yeah, so it is available. But then when you look at the, you know, the amount of money spent on research in India, it is, to be honest, nothing. You know, there is no reward for... There was no reward for me to pursue my research or master's here. So America was my first option. And just like me, there are millions of Indians, you know, who choose America or Germany or any western nation to pursue research. Because the government, or, you know, we do not have the ecosystem where research is rewarded, where we see an outcome of our research. So yes. So government policies intervention is needed, Sarah. How do you feel about that? Are there more opportunities in China for women researchers funding, which is easily available? Infrastructure, if they want to pursue their interest? I think my understanding is that it's primarily married based. Of course, there will be, as any professions, when you progress to a tenure and become a senior researcher, there will be more, there are still more men than women who are in the senior positions. Funding, et cetera, you still need to have these personal elements of how do I actually have enough funds for the research, et cetera. So there is this social network piece of it. But at the same time, there are a lot of very good role models already in the academia, right? So the only Nobel Prize winner from China, originally, is a female chemist. Oh, that's really nice. That's really nice. That only of the entire country, of the entire history of China. We need more of them, definitely. In fact, on topic of that, according to recent research by UK's Intellectual Property Office, women inventors account for just under 13% of patent applications. And a major reason also is because, again, as you said, sometimes it's called a Matilda effect. Now, a Matilda effect is when you do not get credit, which is due to you. And are women suffering from Matilda effects being in terms of getting grants, research, money? Should there be more accessible? Does government need to do more? I think what is really changing now is consciousness on the one side. But then, as well, it's really the society. The hunger is there. In the younger generations, and I'm mentoring one of our female talents here in India, I'm mentoring, as well, a man, not exactly the same generation. But there is such a hunger and ambition, and this is really making the difference. So I don't think we have to put it to the government. Yes, there needs to be some help, but it's now coming from the society, as well. Oh, OK. Well, Nobel Prize, as you mentioned, Sarah, over 90% is only male. And that's a figure that needs to change. The lady in the gray, please. I have a very short time left. Yes, ma'am. In Ginfelon Barefoot College, I have spent the last 10 years training illiterate and semi-literate women to be solar engineers, and indeed delivering a STEM curriculum in rural areas throughout 13 states in India. There is no more empowering mechanism than technology and the mastery of any type of technology, be that digital or hardware. I am also a woman CEO in India, a white woman CEO in India. And I have found the staggering, staggering double standard of how women are perceived in roles of power. And I use that word in both its soft and harder senses to be incredibly daunting. I recently wrote a very, very professional email to my board. One of my male board members wrote me back that I ought to be more compassionate and more mild. Now, I'm quite sure a male CEO would never receive a response from his board asking him to be more compassionate and mild when he was asking about a governance question. So it is precisely this that must shift for us in India to be able to lead the way and open the way for women to assume roles where they can influence thought and influence the economics of the country in a holistic way. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. And as I wrap up the session, because we have another one after this, but I just want to take very quick comments from our panelists here who have been patiently sharing their stories. Subin, starting from you, what advice would you give to a woman who is starting in your position and wants to reach your position? Starting in your position when you were young and wants to reach your position where you are right now? So it's just do your way to it. Do whatever you are liking, what your heart is at. And don't ask other questions. All right. What about you, Ruchi? How can women pursue their interests in science, given a cultural context in India? Because a lot of times you're fighting these battles, not with external but your only major family members. How do you convince them? I would just say that be fearless. That's very, very important. The confidence comes automatically once your fears are out of your way. And in case your upbringing or your cultural conditioning is forcing you to be fearful, then step out of the culture. I mean, it's important. Break the barriers, step out if you need to. But then you have to follow your goals very, very clearly. All right. And so these are both fearless, inspiring words. And I know it's difficult to match up to, believe me, for a closing comment. But I want to ask you this, that innovation at the crux of it is about inventing something new, an idea that doesn't let you sleep. And you're waking up to it every moment to make it possible. How do you overcome the real barriers of financials, for example, funding? Because you've so much talked about funding as well. How do you and where are the avenues for somebody who is a woman who's looking for a creative idea to realize it? How do you realize it? So again, going back to my dad, he taught me to analyze things with an engineering mindset. So it's about probability. So if you keep trying, the compounded probability of success is actually very high. I love that. Aren't you going to go do that? And are there any avenues where you can search for funding ideas or funding donors? Is there a place that people can go to, or online portal or networking that they can do? Yeah, so right now the venture capital market in China is pretty developed. So there are a range of funds where you can go to present your ideas for fundraisings. But the challenge that I mentioned is the VC market really crashed over the past year. The amount of money raised by VC themselves, year on year, this year compared to last year, is minus 90%. So it's a very, very difficult situation back home. So where do you go? You still go back to them. You just keep trying. You keep trying. And the probability is higher. The compounded growth rate, the probability is very high. And also, yeah, if you actually do the math. So if it is 50, 50 success failure, you keep trying upon a number of times, it's actually quite high. Use your calculations. Well, thanks. And that's an optimistic last word to you, Pritika. How can women help women? Because a lot of times we see that if there are women CEOs and if there are women board members or women employees, a lot of times. It is, again, differing from person to person. We see that they may not be the bonding or bond homie that you would expect. How can women help women? So in this context, I would say being a woman, as I said, you need to continuously fight the system, especially in India where there are cultural norms. So one thing I would say is, have the spirit to fight. Because this is going to be very rewarding. Not only for you, but for millions of other girls. If you become a success. Just like Sanya Mirza, once she became a success, parents started sending their daughters into sports. The same way, once you cross those barriers, you can achieve, you can inspire a lot of other girls to come and join the work force. So be a success yourself so that you inspire others. And once you reach that position. And then build the ecosystem where women can easily come and talk to you and share their stories. I think there is a huge need of such systems, such ecosystem where women can talk to other women and share their stories. Because the challenges we face in the work force is very different from what our male counterparts face. So having such systems, yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you all so much. Thank you all so much for being with us. Thank you for being a wonderful audience and taking part in all our questions. And thank you for sparing time. I can just say this, that when it comes to India's innovation, the big tech leap, the untapped potential of the women part that we've witnessed today on this panel is just a minuscule part. There is a lot more that the half of the population can contribute in realizing the dream to make India an innovation hub. And all across the world as well, women scientists who are struggling hard, the words of inspiration hurt here. I hope that you're hearing them as well and they inspire you. Thank you so much for being with us.