 Hi, I'm Marion Sasaki. It's Wednesday, so you're watching Life in the Law, Wednesdays at Think Tech Hawaii. I'm delighted today to have a colleague and a fresh perspective on the law. My colleague Nicholas Kaleo Fang is with me today. Welcome, Nicholas. How are you? What do you want me to call you? Kaleo? Yeah, Kaleo. Kaleo. Kaleo. I just found out that Kaleo is like a diminutive for Nicholas, right? It's like a Hawaiian name for Nicholas? No? That's what Diane told me. Oh, well. All right. That's what she told me. No, it's my middle name. Oh, okay. Yeah. So what's fascinating about Kaleo is that he just graduated from law school. He's waiting to be admitted to the bar, and as he went to law school, he worked his way through. So tell me a little bit about how you decided to become a lawyer and how, just tell me about the process. I guess I was a political science major in college, and I guess law school just naturally followed that. I was always interested in it. I kind of applied just to see if I would get in, and I did. Do you have an interest in a career in public service? Or did you ever? Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to help the indigent and volunteer when I could and give back to Kamehameha schools. Oh, good. I graduated from Kamehameha. Oh, good. Well, this is a public service because we're free. We go out on the internet, as you know. This is, I think, takes a public forum for people to express their opinions and just to meet people of varying walks of life. So you can consider this a little bit of public service. Great. Yeah. So you started law school in 2012? 2013. 2013. Yeah. And you went one year, and then you worked and went to school. How was that? Yeah. I needed to start paying off my student loans. So a lot of my classmates were getting summer internships, and most of them were unpaid. And instead, I wanted to actually find a regular position, possibly at a firm, so I could get my feet wet and get some practical experience. And a funny thing was I applied for an entry-level filing position at Clay Chapman. And I didn't hear back for a while, and I actually started working at Tanaka of Tokyo as a host for a few weeks. Oh, and then you lucked out and you got a job in your field. Yeah, thank God. I mean, we were talking, Clay and I were talking about how lucky it is. I mean, so many people that graduate from law school now can't find jobs in their field. We're both really lucky to have jobs as a lawyer. Well, Clay was going to be sworn in when? November? November 18th. So this is a really exciting time for him. How was studying for the bar? Really exciting. Did you study a lot? How was that? Oh, yeah. Every day, for hours, we had a set schedule, and I was studying with my wife now, just the two of us. Right. We should say that Kaleo's wife is an intern, not an intern, that's not the right word. A clerk. A law clerk. A law clerk for which judge? Judge Nassino First Circuit. Just Judge Nassino First Circuit. How is it having two lawyers in the family? Do you have these very lawyerly discussions about where I want to go to dinner or whatever? That was interesting. You know, not yet. We actually discuss a lot of our cases together, not the details. No, no. Obviously. We have utmost confidentiality with our clients in mind. But you know, just interesting issues. Right. Right. Not too many arguments. Did you study together? Yeah. Wow. All throughout law school. Wow. The father is a judge. So he always said the last thing on earth he'd want to be would be a lawyer. So I've always been fascinating by like legal families, people that have lawyers in them. Like there's some families that have, everyone's a lawyer. You know, their father, their grandfather, their brothers and sisters. So you know, it must be, well it's great to have somebody to study with. Oh yeah, definitely. Just someone else to bounce ideas off. And she must be smart if she's a clerk. She must be really smart, right? She's extremely smart. What's her name? Agle Vandenberg. Agle Vandenberg? Yeah, Aggie. Aggie. Yeah. And somebody told me she's from Belgium? Yes. Had she ended up here? She came for college, played tennis at UH. Ah. Yeah. So she said, I like this. I like it here. Yeah. I'm going to stay here. Yeah. Yeah. So that's great. So she passed. But you're both going to be sworn in and you're going to do anything special for your admission? Um, I don't know. We took a trip after the bar for a few weeks to go to the mainland to see her sisters. But after admissions, I think we're getting right back to work. You're going to work. They're going to, our firm, Clare works at my firm, Clay Chapman. And our firm asked them to swear in early because that's how desperately they wanted him to practice law. No, they didn't ask me. No. I just wanted to, you know. You wanted to swear in early? Possibly to relieve the pressure, you know, from all the attorneys who are. That won't relieve the pressure. Oh, that's the whole thing of being an attorney is you're constantly under pressure. And if you don't walk around like, oh, I'm so overworked, I can't believe it. I can't take it. Nobody will think you're a good lawyer. You have to always be too busy to do anything. Hey, well, you know, they've always been really good to me. So whatever I could do to help out, I just wanted to. I know. It's a great firm. It's really a great firm. I, you know, I worked at some large firms in New York City, and they were really very tough and you're very lucky to have a place where everybody is, you know, thoughtful and, you know, respectful and no matter what your level is, you know. Yeah, definitely. So, you know. So like, what do you do on a day to day, well, what will you be doing on a day to day basis? You know? I believe I'll be going to most of our hearings. Have you ever gone to a hearing before? I've sat in. Yeah. Yeah, on a lot of hearings. Right. But you've never gone. Well, obviously you're not an attorney yet. Right. You know, I was always like a little trepidatious about going before the judge, you know. But then I guess after a little experience it gets a little easier, right? Yeah, yeah. I think at first it might be a little stressful. I might be a little nervous to speak in front of the judge, but I think once you do it every day for a little while. Right. I didn't realize that they sent out, you know, junior people to go to court. You're really lucky to have that experience. A lot of people don't have that experience. Like a big law firm sometimes, people don't get to try their own cases for a very long time. Right. And they don't have the experience. Right. So tell me a little bit about yourself personally. Are you from Sacramento? I was born here in Honolulu, but we moved to Sacramento when I was about eight years old. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then I actually came back my junior year of high school to go to Kamehameha. Oh, okay. Yeah. So tell me about Kamehameha. Why would you want to give back? What's... I mean, I'm new. I'm new to the island, so I don't know anything. So you can tell me anything and it'll be news to me. So is Kamehameha... Is it mainly a local school and local kids go there? And it's... I... You know. Well, not necessarily. I mean, it's a native Hawaiian school. Oh, it's a native Hawaiian school. Yeah, and they do give preference to native Hawaiians. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. But like me, I was coming from Sacramento, so there are applicants to Kamehameha from all of the United States or... Do they teach courses with respect to indigenous people or Hawaiian history or something like that? Oh, yeah. Oh, that would be great. I should take a course like that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, really, because I don't know... I really need to learn more. I mean, it's very hard to be a student at my age, but that's great. But old schools offer that, right? No. I think it's Wokumama is the only school with a native Hawaiian preference policy. But I mean, I think most schools in Hawaii do offer Hawaiian language, Hawaiian history. You know, I was talking to a teacher the other day and I promised you I wouldn't talk about politics and I'm not going to. But she said that she was trying to teach, you know, civics and that this election was so crazy that it was hard to use as a teaching tool because it was so unlike any election she had ever seen before. So I thought that was pretty interesting, you know. Oh, yeah, I bet. Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. So were you interested in political science when you were a Kamehameha? Were you active? In the political community? Yeah. In high school? Yeah. Did you do anything? Um, not really in politics. A lot of Hawaiian projects, I think it was called Kiavea Bay. We went to Hilo to plant, was it, colletries? Really? Yeah. That's terrific. Like a small project Kamehameha offers a lot of those opportunities. That's great though. Yeah. That's one of the reasons why I also got an Ethnic Studies Certificate. Right. And what does that mean Ethnic Studies Certificate? What does that require? That was just... What ethnicity, first of all, is it Hawaiian? Well, for me, I think my focus was in Hawaiian, but Ethnic Studies has a range of different departments within it. There's, I think, Filipino studies, Japanese. Oh, wow. One reason I love Hawaii is because it's a crossroads of so many different cultures. I think it makes it... It's a lot like New York in that way. Oh yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different people here and you can really learn a lot about cultures that, you know, at least I don't know about, you probably know about. So what made you interested in Hawaiian culture, just because you were going to Kamehameha? I guess growing up in Sacramento, I didn't get the same opportunity to grow up with it and to learn it throughout my young age. So once I came back, I really wanted to learn and only being at Kamehameha for two years didn't really allow me to learn all the Hawaiian language or culture, even Hawaiian history that I wanted to know. Oh, so you know Hawaiian language a bit? Yeah, that's terrific. So tell me some, I don't know, some important or revelatory piece of Hawaiian history I ought to know about that I probably don't know about. Is there anything in real estate related? Because Kaleo practices real estate law, as do I. The Great Mahele, I think, was... Yeah, right. But what is that? The Great Mahele was like, man, it's been a while, but I think that was like when private property was, the concept of private property was created in Hawaii. Oh, okay. Yeah. Because I know I have a book, I have a book that the Great Mahele, but I haven't read it. And I know that it's very significant if you want to practice real estate because it's sort of like the underpinning of all the real estate law in Hawaii. So let's see, what else should we talk about? You're a surfer. Yeah, I like to surf whenever I can. Okay. Well, we'll hear more about surfing and the struggles of a young lawyer when we come back. Just a better minute. My name is Ray Tsuchiyama. I was raised in Kalei Palama, proud graduate of Farmington High School. And I want to say that Think Tech is a great program, brings people together, and creates a really great community of concerned citizens for the future of Hawaii. Hawaii is the state of clean energy. I'm Jay Fiedel, a Sharon Moriwaki and Howard Wigg. We believe in energy and in the month of what? October. Energy awareness, but we're in prep for October. We're in prep for October. We talked today about October. What Keska say, the important thing about October, Sharon Moriwaki? October is energy awareness month where we'll come together with all kinds of activities for energy awareness, energy efficiency as well as all the other kinds of activities. In September, our Energy Wednesday will focus on energy efficiencies in terms of, well, you just saw Derek Sonoda on LED Lights, but the whole idea is that we can do a lot more with the negawatt moments and have a whole series for the month of September. And Howard is helping me coordinate that whole series. He's the guru of energy efficiency. He's the producer of all these shows in October. And what we really want to focus in on is, September is energy efficiency month. Beyond the awareness, we need to get efficiencies started up and now. So what do you got in store, Howard? Okay, question. Which city in the U.S. is the most energy efficient such that it is looking already at zero net energy, at producing as much energy as they consume? Because one city in the U.S. it's not in California, it's Seattle. My guest next week is Dwayne Jolin. He is in charge of energy conservation for the entire city of Seattle. Think this guy knows what he's talking about? Yes. Yeah, he's going to start with lighting and then he's going to go gangbusters from there. Okay, after that. And then we have Dan Bissell from KIUC, the Kauai Independent Utility. Island. Island? Island Utility. Cool. And they recently, in the middle of the day, attained 100% clean energy, an entire utility. This is unheard of. And they're building more. Hi, I'm Marianne Sasaki. You're watching Life in the Law. I'm delighted today to be speaking to Nicholas Kaleo-Fang, a colleague of mine, young lawyer in my firm, and surfer, as we just found out right before the break. But let's talk a little bit about the firm. So was it hard to get adjusted? I mean, you must still be adjusting, right? Well, it's definitely always a learning process, never a shortage of new things. But I've actually been there for a few years, so like I said, after my first year of law school, so it's been a little over two years now. So you know, I'm surprised that you chose to be a lawyer because everybody says, oh, don't be a lawyer. It's like so hard. Did you ever think about that? Actually, a few people told me that before law school. At the firm. No, no, no, not from the firm. Oh, okay. But just other people who had gone through law school. Yeah, lawyers tell you at you, usually. Yeah. I always wondered what that was about. Well, there's some people that really shouldn't go to law school and, you know, they really shouldn't have, but they couldn't figure out what else to do, so they ended up going to law school really. It's really, it's really unfortunate. But you know what else? So you represent the millennial generation as the firm and you're the future. And, but you said you don't identify with millennials. Why not? Yeah, I don't think of myself as a millennial, maybe just, I don't know, I listen to oldies. Do you? Yeah. Are you terrible with technology? Are you really? So I don't know. That's unusual. To be terrible with technology, did that affect law school? A little bit, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had to borrow computers just to take tests or finals. Because my computer couldn't support the exam software. So did you upgrade? Are you going to upgrade? You should upgrade. I guess I need, yeah. I hope your Lexus is good because you'll need your Lexus. Yes. My Lexus skills are pretty good. So what do you, oh good, good. So what do you think of some of the challenges like social challenges facing people your age? Do you have a particular concern like about the environment or any social issues? I don't know. I think it's different. I think the difference in generations is, it's interesting, you know, we're being categorized as millennials. Right. I mean, you're a very important market for like advertising and I mean, everybody wants to know who you're voting for, what you're thinking. But I'm kind of hearing that you're saying you're not one big group that does everything the same. Yeah, I don't think so. Do you have siblings? I do. How many siblings do you have? I have three siblings. Wow, are they boys and girls? My oldest sibling is a girl, sister. She is, how old is she these days? Like 38, I believe. Are they millennials? See, I wouldn't consider her a millennial no. I still don't consider myself a millennial. Maybe my younger brother, I have a younger brother who's 23. And I would consider him a millennial. So what do you think a millennial, like what to you is a millennial? I don't know, he's just better with technology than me. And he listens to this new type of music and I don't know, I guess he is a little more into politics too. Me, not so much. You have to come down to think tech more often if you're not into technology and learn about that, because that's our strong suit, technological developments and all our shows, like a lot of our shows are technology oriented. So you should tune in, you'll be able to learn, so how did you get not to be involved with computers? I mean that must be hard at your age, you know what I mean? Everybody's online, everybody's texting everywhere. Yeah, I guess I text, but that's about it. I don't have a, never got into Facebook. We're on Facebook. Yeah, I see. Thumbs up. You like us on Facebook? Yeah, we're on Twitter. And if anybody has a question they can call in, you can call in at 415-871-2474 if you have a question about how hard it is to pass the bar and become a young lawyer and get a job which is super hard and super important. So your parents must be very proud of you. They are, yeah. Yeah. It feels really good once we got the results, I was so relieved, called them instantly. Did you really think there was any chance of not passing the bar? It's tough to say coming out of the exam I was confident but exhausted and it was definitely hard. The bar for people who might not know, maybe not everybody watching as a lawyer is a two-day eight hour a day or six hour a day test that we have to take before we're admitted. So it's really a grueling experience, it's like a marathon. Oh yeah. Yeah. You have to keep on top of your game for like two days, it's just, you know. Not only do you need to have like the legal knowledge to pass but also the mental endurance to keep, you know, going through the whole thing. Yeah, and not like flip out and get like really scared. Exactly. But you know, that's true about being a lawyer, you know, composure is very, I mean I think you'll be a really good lawyer because you're very composed and composure is a very big part of being a lawyer because when you're in court, you know, if somebody confronts you, you have to be able to think on your feet and, you know, develop an argument and not get rationality I guess is very important if you're a lawyer, don't you think? Yeah, definitely. Right. So do you read, I mean, do you read books about the law or watch movies about the law? We watch shows about the law. Oh, you do? What do you watch? The Good Wife. Oh, and you have never watched that show. Yeah, it's really good. Is it really good? I should start watching it from the beginning because, you know, I really identify with that character because she's like about my age and I worked at a firm, a bigger firm when I was in New York and but I never, it's been on for a very long time. Yeah, it's on like seven, eight seasons. Right. And when we were in law school, we love to, you know, watch movies about the law and we particularly like to watch movies where people went to Harvard. That was like what people would do, they'd get together on Friday night since watch like Tom Cruise or somebody in a legal movie. You know, what's funny is the Good Wife, we were actually, my wife and I were watching it through our bar study, you know, like maybe like an episode a night after. Sure. As you're, you have to do something else, you can't just study, study, study. And it's actually pretty accurate on the law. We would, it would like say something and it would clarify what we've been learning a little bit on either civil procedure or just these little things. That's interesting. It was, it was interesting. But you know, you have to respect the show that it cares so much about its subject that it cares that it's accurate, you know. I mean that kind of quality shows up in other areas of the show too, you know. So oh, so I can get a little, this is good because I'm doing litigation now which I have no really very little experience in and I could use some procedural, some procedural tips and some litigation tips. Yeah. Although I'm remembering my procedure. Did you like procedure in school? I thought it was a little dry. Yeah. But it can be fun to sort of outmaneuver the other side, you know. Yeah, true. If you, you know, if you like to win and you use a little, like a little known, Barack Obama apparently was really excellent at that, using little known rules to get, to get advances case or he, I think did it when he was a senator, a state senator in Illinois, used some rule so that the other person was not challenging him. Yeah, he's very, very clever that way. So what do you think about the end of the Obama presidency that he's like the only president that you know, right? Pretty much eight years. Well, I mean, since you've been, you know, involved in high school and stuff. Yeah, I think ending, ending his presidency, I haven't kept up with it so much, but it looks, seems to me like on the news, he's kind of just winding down, just kicking back. He's chilling. Yeah. Did you see him on, what, Jimmy, was it Jimmy Fallon? Oh, no, no. Stephen Colbert. Yeah, yeah. I think one of him did an interview with him about, like a job exit interview, it was very funny. Right, yeah. It was very funny. Yeah. He's, one thing I like about the president, I think that he's so, gets such a good sense of humor, and I think he's the most plugged in of anybody, any president that I can remember, and I can remember a lot of them, I really can. But he seems to know what people are thinking and know when to address what, you know, people are thinking about. Yeah, he's really good. I like him a lot. So, when did you start surfing? Well, I came back from Sacramento, moved back, and then I started bodyboarding at first for a long time, and then I started stand-up surfing maybe four, three, four years ago. You know, surfing is a great way to meet other lawyers. There's so many surfing lawyers. It's true. If you go to the bar, you'll meet so many surfers. I'm kind of jealous, but I don't, I don't think I could learn at this point. But Miles Briner is a big surfer. He's a big criminal lawyer, and I know other surfing lawyers. Yeah. Well, I know a lot of surfing professionals, actually. It's a good way to unwind after like 10th day, I guess. The legal community actually has a lawyer's surf competition every year. Does it? What do you say? It's called the Land Shark. It's usually in September. Really? Yeah. And I've competed in a few. You've been competed in the Land Shark? Yeah, it was last year. That's cool. It was really fun. Next year we'll have to cover it. We'll drive from the Land Shark and watch all the surfing attorneys. Definitely. Were there a lot of kids from school? A lot of guys you knew? There's a few and a lot of attorneys too. Yeah. Judges are invited. Judges? I'd love to see a surfing judge. So that would be great. That would be great. We have a costume contest too at the very end. So everyone dresses up and then tries to catch a wave while in their costume. See, who says lawyers aren't fun? We're really fun. We're really, really fun. Yeah. So well, I hope you had fun today. Oh, yeah. It was, we like to keep it light here and inform people of areas they don't know. So I really appreciate your coming. No, thank you for having me. Yeah, it was really, really great, really great getting to know you. So thank you very much. Thank you. So I'm Marianne Sasaki. You've been watching Life in the Law. Tune in Wednesdays 1 to 1.30 on Think Tech. Thank you for joining us.