 Hello everyone, I'm James Milan and this is the ABCs of LGBTQ Plus, our series that looks at a lot of the most essential aspects of life in and for the LGBTQ Plus community. Today I am joined by Carmen Paulino and Tracy McKay and I'm going to ask the two of you, first of all, thanks for being here obviously, but I want to ask you to just introduce yourselves please. Well I'll start out, thanks for having us, thanks for doing this series, it's wonderful. Again, my name is Tracy McKay, I use she, her pronouns and I am the program manager for Greater Boston PFLAG and I am also the mom of three children, two of whom are transgender. And Carmen. Hi, my name is Carmen Paulino and I use pronouns she and hers. James, thank you for having us. I am also a parent of five children, three who identify as transgender and two who are my foster children. All right, well I think you out there in the audience I think understand why we would have invited and then Tracy and Carmen to join us for this conversation which is essentially about how families can support particularly children but any members of the family really, how that family unit can be a source of support for those who are within self-identifying within the LGBTQ plus community. So to begin with, you know, it may seem obvious to some people but I'd love to just have you tackle the basic question of why is it so important that a child who is LGBTQ be supported within the home? Sure, well as you said it does seem that it should be very obvious, right? We all want to support our kids but particularly when you think about LGBTQ youth what we know is that they are much higher risk for anxiety, depression, suicidality but what we also know and the good news is that when families are supportive and affirming those numbers change dramatically. I think of one particular report by the Trevor Project that was done I believe in 2018 that said that kids who were supported by just one even one accepting adult were 40% less likely to be suicidal so it's certainly very important for their long-term mental health and for your relationship to be supporting when they do come out to you. And while you know you guys are not necessarily social scientists or anything I'm not asking for very you know specific data about this but in general from what you understand you know what is the kind of proportion or percentage of children who have to deal with unsupportive environments from the adults around them versus those who are you know can count on at least one of those adults being supportive. Yeah I don't know I don't know that I know the statistics on that Carmen is that something? Yeah and again not I understand statistics you know are not necessarily you know readily at hand but just kind of your sense of you know is in general or most of the kids in this situation in relatively supportive environments or not. So my experience has been that the answer to that is now there's a lot of children who don't have affirming homes and affirming families and that's one of the reasons why it's so important that a child has at least that one person in at home at school or throughout their local communities. Children have proven that they are very successful and can live productive and happy lives when they do have that in their lives. And you know to start to start to dig into the nitty-gritty a little bit more here both of you have transgender children and I'm wondering at what point or how how did the coming out process around that happen for your I know you each have multiple children so the stories might be different with different ones but just give us a sense of how of how that happened. Did it come from your child? Did it come from you recognizing something? How did that go? I can take the lead on that question right now. So my son Ashton came out as transgender when he was 12 years old and in the seventh grade and he came out to me. I believe that he also in the same week shared that with a gym teacher who is also part of the LGBT community in his school I can say that you know my biggest my biggest expectation for myself was that I told him repeatedly that I love them that I accept them for who he is that we were in this together and that nothing changes who he is as my child who I love very much and on an side note to that I also have two other children who are transgender and they are both foster children and they've been with us for a year and what I have learned as a foster parent is that when my kids walk into my home and I say that specifically because I specialize in transgender youth in the foster care 50% of my battle is out the door by me making them feel firm welcome in my home and using proper pronouns so that has been my experience per se and what I could say is that though you're supportive at home you know there's other factors that you have to consider you know school friends family members church community right so when my son came out he had a lot of heaviness on his chest and the sense that yes I was loving and supportive at home but he needed to figure out how he was gonna navigate all the other communities and his longtime friends and all of that and that could be very stressful for a child and we are lucky enough to have a supportive community and loving family members who are very accepting but that's not the case for a lot of children which is one of the reasons why you know I opened my home to children in foster care yeah and I do want to to hear also obviously what what what your experience has been Tracy but just to follow up for a second comment on what you were saying I'm not sure if people are aware that of course trans children are being are in the foster care system just as much you know as they are represented in the larger population I'm sure and I would imagine that that is you know that that compounds the difficulty a lot of the time for that child in navigating the foster care system is that who knows how much attention is being paid to identifying parents such as yourself who create the right kinds of environment in those homes do you have it you were saying that you have kind of specialized is I think the way that you put it how did that even happen was with somebody did somebody seek you out looking for a supportive environment for for trans foster children or did you present yourself how did that happen so I would share that our journey was not always a smooth one our path you know we're finally in that place where you know we have built community and we are aware resources and we're very much involved but in the beginning as a family as we tried to navigate things it was hard especially in living in a community of color right where still there's a lot of bias and a lot of education needs to happen around being transgender and I just learned that it was a very difficult thing to navigate and I learned that there was a lot of homeless youth a lot of youth of color also for various reasons right where they come from religious beliefs community believes and it was very difficult for a lot of families to come to peace with that and understand so to me as I supported my son through his transition it was very important that I educated my community that I was able to portray a mother's love for their child unconditionally and the fact that that is our responsibility as parents is to love and accept our children no matter their gender no man no matter their sexuality and that every child can be successful every child can be brought to be a good person if they have a loving environment so I did research and I connected with a foster care agency that is a therapeutic agency and I told them that I specifically wanted to foster transgender youth because not only it wasn't important to me to foster love and attention and you know the medical and mental health support that that child needs to be successful but I wanted to be able to connect with families with their families to you know help them and meet them where they're at because that's super important to me parents where there are and validate all those feelings and all those fears because they're very real I you know I've always been concerned and I continue to be concerned for the safety of my child but I know that he's going to be a healthier and happier adult with my love and my support so I wanted to be able to connect with those families as they work through reunification and educate them and just you know listen and let them know that they're not alone and that they certainly don't have to do this alone that we can do this together well you I gotta say it sounds like you are quite the reason the resource perhaps even a treasure as far as those families and those children are concerned so that's a that's a wonderful perspective to to hear and Tracy though I also would be interested to hear what has happened in your home sure and I just want to reiterate that you know Carmen's work is even or her mission or commitment is even more important because LGBTQ youth are actually over highly over represented in the foster care system because of family rejection so there much it's a much higher pop percentage of the foster care population so so for myself my oldest child came out in a kind of roundabout way she was about 17 or 16 or 17 and you know it wasn't really clear what was going on it took a while to get to the point where she was able to understand herself and and come out to us and say you know that I'm trans and this is this is what it is so during the point where we were working with working through this with her and again like Carmen you know my first instinct was you know no matter what is going on I love you and I support you and we will do whatever you need to do it was surprising neither of my kids gave me any indication that this is where we were headed when they were younger but so it's surprising and I had to do a lot of education but you know the first thing I wanted her to know was that we were my husband and I were behind her so as we were working this out with her and we hadn't really shared anything with anybody because she wasn't ready for that my youngest youngest child who was 11 at the time she was much more clear-cut she let me know she came out to me one day and said you know I'll never forget her she wrote it down I'm having questions about my gender so neither of them knew about the other which is kind of wild yeah neither of them knew about the other so there was this time period that where my husband and I were supporting both of them and holding kind of all of this without anyone else knowing but that's that's that's that's just kind of in you know intriguing is a weird word to use but it was it was it because you were respecting each of your child's you were respecting their desires in terms of keep holding it just just among you not even sharing it with with the other child exactly and I think that that's one of that you know one of the important point is that you know you have to respect your child's desire for and need for privacy within the family which I think is a really important yes even within the family they neither of them the right-of-way were ready for us to share that with with their siblings or with you know the larger family so we wouldn't and like I said my husband and I kind of held that all and waited until they were ready and when you know my older daughter was ready first and then she told their you know our immediate family and then kind of went out from there and then when my youngest child was ready then she was able to do that as well but we felt it was really important you know I think for any child that comes out to you I think it's really important to let them lead the way it has to be their process and some kids I think are ready to you know they've been thinking about this for a long long time many of them many of them thinking about it for a long time and as a parent it's hard because you're just hearing about it but they've been thinking about it for a while and are ready to go so I'm sorry would you say that that holds true that you really need to have have the child lead the process irrespective of the age of their age absolutely absolutely I mean that you know you need to be discussions about you know who they want to tell and how they want to tell them and when they're ready so I think that that goes true whether it's parents whether it's schools I do a lot of trainings at schools and and we have to tell teachers that if a child comes out to you and they're not ready to tell other people you have to be the one to hold that you can't you know out that child to other people it has to be it's led by the child so I would say yes regardless of the age that child is needs to be in control of that information well let me ask both of you a question that's kind of about strategy in a sense by which so let me be clear both of you have indicated what your what your initial reactions were when you first heard from your children about this and in both of your cases what you said to them is what you felt in your hearts which is and feel and feel which is nothing that none nothing that you tell me is going to change the fact that I love you unconditionally etc so my question is in terms of strategies for a parent who doesn't feel that way when they hear that would you counsel that it is still best to give that message as the initial message or what how about it if you know what would you say to parents who don't don't have that reaction James I would I would think that it is important for the parent to validate their own feelings that doesn't mean that you can be supportive and loving I think that my my recommendation would be to acknowledge that you heard what the message was hey this is who I am mom or dad and for you to say thank you for letting me know mm-hmm like it doesn't have to be a big conversation you know I think that that that child just needs some time to take a deep breath at that moment anyways and just feel good that it's out there that they were able to say it and if you're having a difficult time processing if you don't know if this is something that you understand or you even believe in I think that as a parent my recommendation to you would be to acknowledge to acknowledge and and remind your child that you love them in that moment you don't have to have a huge conversation about what the next steps are or anything like that your child will let you know when that time is and when the next step is you know so I would say be true to yourself take a deep breath you know and just reassure your child that you heard that you know you're not ignoring and I think that taking things one step at a time is the best approach and like that like you can have meaningful conversations right you don't have to be reactive and think exactly you know what we have to say you know what we have to do but you can you can use words or phrases as tell me more mm-hmm you know what does this mean educate yourself go on Google you know I did that I had to do that I still have to do that this is a journey for a parent as well as for your child I don't have all the answers so I don't expect any parent to have all the answers and I think that your children will appreciate if you tell them just that that you don't have all the answers but that you're willing to learn and you're willing to educate yourself and to hear them out I think that that that is the best thing that you can do for yourself so that you can keep it honest with yourself and feel good about the process and what you're doing as well as showing your love and support for your child yeah I think it's important to be genuine I think kids know when you're not being genuine so to really in that moment think of something that is true and for most parents that is I love you and I want the best for you and you know you may have all kinds of fears in your head you probably do about what this means you know you want your best for your child and you're not sure that you know you can have that with this new information but just finding that that true piece that's in there that I support you and I love you and then it's come and said take a breath and you know kind of process that one of the things that I think is so important for parents that whether you're struggling with it because of you know religious reasons political regions cultural reasons or whether it's just new information it's so important to you know you have these feelings of maybe fear and confusion and what have you it's so important to deal with those feelings outside of your interactions with your child right those of those feelings are absolutely appropriate and valid but that's not something that you want to work out with your child your child's got your own stuff going on you know there's support groups there of this friend it's important to acknowledge those and find a place to work those out but not do that with your child um you both have addressed this already to some degree but I wanted to ask what in your minds and in your experience what does active support for a child again after especially after the initial stages of first hearing and then processing and beginning to put things in place what does active support for a child look like what are the components that are that are vital to that as you know the the weeks become months become years and you know again assuming that your child is still within your home and where you're still part of the main support system for him or her I think that that you know that that we're active is really important because while it while the first your first day has to be I love you and I support you like if it ends there then that's that's not enough right so things like making sure you use the new name and pronoun asking your child like what do you need for a transgender child that may mean you know taking them shopping for new clothes those are some things connecting them with other folks in the community whether it's finding a transgender mentor an LGBTQ mentor for your child an adult or you know support groups like seeking out those resources for your child and and being a child's advocate whether that is that the doctor's office school in a religious community really being out there as an advocate for your child I'm demanding that respect for your child or all ways to really actively show your support I'm sure Carmen you've got some more yeah and you know James I would add to that that what active looks like in different communities right I think that when we're more American lies we're more open to counseling we're more opening we're more open to you know reaching out to different communities like our church if we think that that's a support system but sometimes culturally that's not just what we're taught to do you know and when that happens I would say you know ask your child so you know what is the next step and some people know about pronouns some people know about preferred names no one in my family or culture had ever even heard of that okay so they're like what do you mean pronoun what do you mean a name you know so it's having those conversations with your child if you're informed enough to know which is why you know doing some research after your child comes out it gives you some time to educate yourself around proper pronouns what pronouns are and knowing that you don't need to know what they are asked you know and then they will tell you what they are and you can ask questions I say they are you know depending obviously underage they will give you the the the the answer that you might be looking for when appropriate and what I mean by that is you know just making sure that we're being sensitive to their age and also their development and where they are at right learning and educating ourselves that transitioning looks different for everyone and it's it's it's very unique why you know there's medical interventions why it's important to see a doctor that specializes it doesn't mean that you know your child is gonna have top or bottom surgery or anything like that it just means that there's a healthcare provider that is going to meet the needs of that child that that child and that parents gonna feel comfortable in that setting with that provider who is welcoming and really that's all that means now there's a whole bunch of other stuff that you'll get there when you're there and you can ask questions doesn't mean that that's the way you're gonna go and I talk to you like that because that's how I've had meaningful conversations with a lot of parents you know who are really for the first time learning the difference or understanding that the difference between gender and sexuality are two different things and why we you know the medical field is so important in the trans community it's you know because if your son is a transgender male who identifies as male he still needs to see a provider as he gets older he's gonna need a breast exam he's gonna need a pap smear and to feel firm and feel supportive in at your medical provider that is huge so you know I just wanted to expand on that because it does look different for different communities and how hard is it you know we were talking earlier about the fact that you have offered yourself within the foster care system as somebody who is going to who knows something about this is has the right kind of mental and spiritual approach to this to create the healthiest environment possible well so how hard is it to find you know people within the medical establishment who offer the same kind of reassurance is you know is is that easy or hard it's hard I mean that we are I would say in this area we are lucky there is some great providers which is wonderful but I think on the whole particularly if you're looking at you know beyond this area it's very difficult to find pediatricians who are well birthed particularly with the trans with issues that trans folks base we know one of the things that you know systems are hard in in hospitals like we are forever going into hospital even after you've changed legal names and gender markers we're still we know we get those ID bracelets with the wrong name and the wrong idea so it's not just medical providers it's the whole you know the whole medical system is not really caught up to to what the issues that the particularly the trans but also the LGBTQ in general base and again I think we're lucky in this area there's lots of great providers that that we can look to but overall I think it is difficult and going back to something that Tracy shared earlier is this is why it's so important and key that you are your child's advocate because like Tracy said we do have wonderful providers in the Boston area and we've been I've been very blessed with that but still when I go to a walk-in clinic or I go to the hospital I run into a lot of complications when it comes to you know how they they adapt right to to whatever you're telling them though they're seeing something different so when possible which I still do for all of my kids is I call in advance I ask for a conference call with a doctor that is the first time they're gonna meet my child I also do research on you know if you're looking for a new primary care doctor are they LGBTQ friendly most website and hospitals now have that and have people who actually specialize but it's it's being your child's advocate and calling in advance and saying hey I understand that the insurance especially you know with my children who come into foster care in the beginning most of none of these things have ever been done for them so it's all new so I call in advance and I remind that receptionist make sure you grab a sticky note and write the preferred name so that when you call my child in the waiting room you're using proper pronouns and proper name preferred name and you know that goes for a new school that goes for everything where I am you know sending my child to I as the parent I have to be that advocate and do everything you can to try to take some of that responsibility off their shoulder and do it for them and and find and identify who your allies are in those places right away right so when you make a phone call you can speak to that person again I gotta say a couple more things and then we'll be done this has been a wonderful conversation I have to say I am delighted I get to talk to a lot of people through the work that we do here at ACMI and have talked to lots and lots of people in the last three to six weeks because everybody is home anybody watching can tell you know the context under which we are conducting this interview which is of course we are still all of us in our homes and in dealing with the pandemic as best we can what I was going to say is delighted to get 40 minutes into or however far into this conversation we are without even bringing it up first time but let me ask is there anything that's specific to this time that has made life either easier which I doubt or harder for you your families and the LGBTQ plus community as you know it yeah I mean I think it's a difficult for it if you think about the wider LGBTQ community some things that have been really difficult during this pandemic is there's kids or yeah I guess particularly youth that are now forced to be home with maybe unsupportive caregivers kids who are only maybe able to be out at school who no longer have that opportunity kids LGBTQ youth who have the support services a lot of them are meeting online now which is great so but the loss of those supports and I also really feel for whether youth or adults who have scheduled things like gender affirming surgery who had them all postponed and those sometimes are scheduled a year or more in advance and so there's that huge uncertainty about whether those when those will be rescheduled and all of those lead to you know increase of anxiety depression in an already very vulnerable population yeah it's interesting you know the whole idea of elective procedures right you know they are elective procedures as far as the medical establishments concerned they are hardly elective procedures as far as a lot of the people awaiting them yeah yeah they are definitely not elective procedures and that's something that's going to need to change over time that realization that this is a gender affirming surgery is a necessary medical intervention so you know I again my heart breaks for people who have been waiting hanging on to get to those and doing a lot to get to those those surgeries only to now have them postponed so those are just a few things there's there's a whole laundry list of why this is difficult on many marginalized communities but but you know the LGBTQ community for sure so I've got one last question I wanted to ask you well one last area and that is our focus in this conversation has rightly been on the welfare of the children that we were talking about both the children in your homes your children and others similarly situated understandably so I'm I'm I'm curious though about the effect on you as parents and specifically not just around needing to protect and and support your child in different kinds of context and introducing him or her or them to different you know to two different folks and institutions etc but how about for you and by that what I mean is how how what are the difficult conversations or interactions you have to have with perhaps friends or neighbors or I don't know other people in the community how does it go you know what what are the things that you would say to parents just in dealing with their lives you know as parents of transgender youths well I guess I'd say a couple of things I'm sorry you go I cut you off no it's okay you know there's a there's a couple of things first of all as I mentioned before I think it's really important you know there's so many feelings that you have that are separate from your love and support for your child so you know for some people it is fear of what that means for your child for some people it is kind of a feeling of loss for not that you're losing your child but you're losing kind of what you might have envisioned for them for the future you're having to pivot what that looks like so it's really important for you to get support for yourself again whether it's support groups therapist friends so that's really important but in terms of the conversations that you have it really you know it depends I have some we've had some conversations that are quite easy and people are you know people maybe they ask a few questions but they're definitely you know on board and then we have had some people that you know not so much and those folks really they don't get it or they ask you know really you know I'm sure Carmen you will have this too I you know I have some people that just ask like wildly inappropriate conversation inappropriate questions about you know what kind of surgery my kids may or may not have what things you know what's under their clothes I mean just really you know bizarre and inappropriate questions very intrusive and you know I guess that people are curious and maybe it comes from a place of wanting to support but very intrusive so you know there are some some conversations that are easy some that are hard and you know our bottom line was you know we would talk with try to get everybody on board but if people they weren't on board that was fine but they weren't going to be on board with us and we were very fortunate that our you know our family for sure I mean you know most of our friends were really very supportive after some you know you have to educate them just like you educate yourself so you know it depends on the person and the other the other thing I would say for parents is really there's no one way to do this you know I had a variety of ways that I would tell people some people I would tell face to face some people I wrote a letter some people I wrote an email some people I just put it in a Christmas card so I you know I think to just to do what feels right for you and to know that there's just not one way to handle the situation yes for sure I agree with everything Tracy said I would also just say to parents allow yourself to be to feel whatever that is I mean it's so important to acknowledge that this is not easy for parents not because we don't love our children but because we do love them because we want what's best for them and it has nothing to do with who they are being wrong or not okay it has to do with the fact that we live in a world that is not ready obviously right and those are the fears and allow yourself to be allow yourself to have emotions it's okay to cry in the shower you know like I still do it sometimes sometimes I don't even know why but that is good that is you know taking care of yourself and knowing where you are at times and knowing that this is not easy but that your child is better because of you right and the other piece would be around having conversations with people don't feel that you owe anybody an explanation you know know that this is your child your life your home and our job is to protect our children and I've had to in a very kind way say you know I respect your point of view I'm not comfortable having this conversation or I'm not having this conversation and you know some of those are harder than others because it can be with a grandparent right or it could be with your church minister I don't know right so there's a lot of decisions that goes into this but allow yourself to be speak your truth right and know that you're doing the right thing follow your heart we've covered a lot of ground today and and really powerfully I very much appreciate you guys being here I wanted to ask you as as we wrap up and just kind of issue an open invitation to you to share one more lesson learned some hint that you might have for others something that we haven't mentioned yet that you want to make sure is out there so in whichever order you'd like if there's something to add please please feel I mean we've talked about a lot of what I would want parents know but I guess the one thing just for parents or grandparents or whatever just to just to know and remember that you know your child is the same child that you loved and protected and cared about and all the things that you enjoyed about them is the same I remember when my oldest I was talking with wrote a letter to my mom when she came out to her and she said to her Grammy remember you know think about if you have a phone that you really love it's a lot of great features that has all your favorite photos on it but then you just get a new case and it looks different but it's still the same phone that you always love and I always remember that because it's true they're the same you know you know this new fact about them but that doesn't change what you know and love and appreciate about them from before they told you and for me what I would say is you're not alone right you don't have to do this alone allow yourself to let people in your life who want to be there and there is community right like I felt very alone in the beginning of our journey and you will lose people but you will gain a lot of people great people that you know will be there through you to hold your hand to cry with you to celebrate there's a lot of celebration in this as well so my biggest message would be is that there's there is people out there there is community and there's always room and I welcome that I welcome I'm always open to have a conversation with parents and stuff like that because I remember my first p-flat meeting walking in there and being scared and not knowing what to expect and thinking about it in the parking lot right and if it's not a meeting just reaching out to one person and and we can do this together and I just realized that I have something to throw in myself which is a reminder to folks who've been who who've been watching that and I'm just gonna assume you guys are gonna agree with me on this that though we have been focused because of the specific experiences that you guys have on the t part of lgbtq today on the trans population I am sure that all of the wisdom shared here today is equally applicable to other members of that community and people in other situations within that spectrum so with that point of clarification I want to thank you guys again I've been talking to Codman Paulino and to Tracy McKay this has been the ABCs of lgbtq plus I'm James Milan thanks so much for joining us