 I'm Joshua Cooper and welcome to Cooper Union and what's happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii and Moana, New York. Today, we're looking at the doomsday clock ticking towards existential end of humanity, 90 seconds before midnight, closest ever. But a human rights-based approach to avoid an apocalypse. Today I'm joined by former commanders and current campaigners and we're excited to look at what we can discuss to avoid this existential threat. Aloha and today we're looking at the doomsday clock and I'd like to welcome first Alan Ware, Director of Basel Peace Office. Alan, as a global coordinator of parliamentarians for nuclear non-proliferation and disarmament, why is the doomsday clock so important and what should we do about making sure it doesn't get any closer? Joshua, thank you so much for having this really important show and this is a really important announcement from the bulletin of autonomous scientists that the hands of the doomsday clock are 10 seconds closer to midnight than the same time last year. This comes from a scientific approach. So these are scientists, they're analyzing the situation, the risks to humanity and in particular, the risks from a possible nuclear war and climate change and also the unraveling of multilateralism, the rise of nationalism, which is creating more conflicts and putting us in peril. So it's very important to have the scientific basis from then we can look at what are some policies that are important to work on. And a key thing with this announcement, every year they do this and they do it on the anniversary of the very first resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, which put forward the objective of the elimination of, they call them atomic weapons back then, atomic weapons and all other weapons of mass destruction. So the bulletin of atomic scientists does that to basically say, look, we have a huge problem, it's a global issue. We can work with our own governments, our parliamentarians, our mayors in our own countries, but we also have to work internationally and the United Nations is the best forum to do that. And we can talk later in the program about the various ways we can take forward these objectives of say preventing nuclear war and protecting the world from climate change and other existential threats through key United Nations forums and processes. Alan, thank you so much for that historical lesson but also holistic perspective about peace, sharing that the purpose of the UN, of course, was to end the scourge of war and how far we have not gone yet. Robert, it's an honor to have you because you're probably one of the rare people that had such a responsibility, as we say in Hawaii, a kuleana on your shoulders during your career regarding nuclear weapons. Can you share with us insight into what you were dealing with and why you're now campaigning for nuclear abolition? Well, hello, Joshua. Thank you very much for inviting me on the program. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm particularly so in company with Makayla and Yvan, young activists because it's youth that's gonna carry this movement forward. I'm quite old. I was at sea in the Cold War. I joined the submarines in 1962 and I was at sea a second in command of HMS repulse, a Polaris missile firing the submarine in 1972. The second in command is command qualified in case the captain goes sick. And in the two years I was on board, in fact, I had to take command because he was sick with a condition onto several occasions. So I was both in command and second in command and therefore in the chain for launching weapons. At the time in 72, of course, was quite high to the Cold War. Being a young officer, you did what you were told and you believed what you were told. And we were told that actually, nuclear weapons kept the peace. But my captain and I, before we went on patrol and faced with the likely possibility that we would have to launch weapons, did discuss, would we launch weapons? And we said that if we knew that our country was under attack, which is what we told we were defending against and threatening so it didn't happen. But if we knew that we were under attack, we probably would launch. I have to say quite a few commande officers said probably because until push comes to shove, you don't know actually whether you will carry out what is essentially a revenge attack. The one thing we were sure of though was we would not fire first. If we had an order to launch, we thought nobody had launched at us, we would stop, think and consider whether we really would launch a nuclear war based on intelligence. Intelligence is always fallible. So that was my condition in 1972 to 74 and for the rest of my time in the service, I guess that mentally continued to be my approach. In retirement with more time and facing a bit of a financial crisis in the UK, at about the time we were buying the next class of submarine when budgets were tight, I decided to investigate whether we could afford to carry on with the deterrent. Now the war was down and the Cold War had finished because I thought, well, do we need it? And the next is started off as a financial thing, cost benefit, but it slowly, I got deeper and deeper into the ethics of nuclear war and deterrence, the theory of deterrence read more widely and educated myself. And the first thing I realized was that when we'd been told that we would never fire first in 72, that was not true. There was a secret plan that we would, if necessary, according to the government, but they didn't tell us. And once you've lost a bit of confidence, the war very quickly falls down, as did the Berlin war. And I moved quite quickly to understanding that not everything I'd been told was correct and not everything I hadn't been told everything. Four years later, I decided for myself that there was only one thing to do and that was to get rid of nuclear weapons. And we didn't seem to be making any great attempt to do so. There was no plan, no pathway and no motivation. So I undertook to try within the Navy to educate naval officers as to the fact, education, education, education. And I found out that a lot of the Navy didn't know the fact. And from that position, I kept on campaigning to try and make as much noise as I can and tell people the truth. And that's where I am today. Well, we thank you for sharing about that harrowing task during that time, but also your personal transformation to decide that peace is the only way to go forward. We now move toward youth to work with youth fusion. Mikhail, I'm very excited to hear about your perspective when you hear about this doomsday clock clicking ever closer to catastrophe. And in fact, 2023, it's the closest ever since the bolt of atomic scientists began measuring the metaphorical timepiece. What's the first thought that comes to your mind as we move from 100 seconds to 90 seconds? Hi, everyone, and thank you so much for that question. I think it's very crucial and one that I think we all have on our minds, and I especially in times of a climate catastrophe and also the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And I think the first thing that comes to my mind when I saw that news as a young person who's lived through all of this in the past year is that I'm not surprised at what's been happening and the results of the doomsday clock. I was expecting it sometimes a little bit to be worse because I think as a young person in some regard, our hope is kind of lost. And that's why I think that it's so important to keep putting our energies collectively into projects such as the ones that Youth Fusion have been spearheading and really raise these issues with youth and to make a network and a community of people to lean on each other and give each other hope that we can make a difference. Because I think that that's kind of the only thing that we can cling onto right now because there's so many knock-on effects that this whole war has created. Economically, Europe is really in a mess. It's a very tough time for young people to find work and we're all feeling it. And that's why Youth Fusion is really, it's standing out as this worldwide networking platform for individuals to really band together and say no to nuclear weapons. Because I think that's what's really holding this war hostage right now. It's a complete unfair playing field and there's really with nuclear weapons at the disposal of great powers who are in a deadlock right now. And I think that's why we need to come with other solutions like the solutions of human security, common security. And I think that young people really have that mentality and that's why Youth Fusion and our goal is to inform, educate, connect and engage young people. So they are actually equipped with the tools and the knowledge to be confident to actually go out there and put out some form of resistance. So for example, we do that mostly through educating. And I think that that's why Mr. Forsythe was very much reaffirming our education efforts. So that was very heartwarming to hear that you agree with that. And we've also had various projects relating to our network. So we very much value that because I think people, young people especially are our power but not only young people. We also very much value intergenerational dialogue because young people cannot stand alone in this issue. We need all the people and people of all walks of life to really come together because nuclear disarmament on its own, it's not a standalone issue. It impacts so many other areas of our security, our sustainability and youth fusion really works to work across the network. So for example, we work a lot with the climate movement because nuclear disarmament and climate are very, very deeply linked. They're both the two biggest factors in the doomsday clock and very existential matters. We also work with people within the feminist movement. Nuclear disarmament has feminist roots and we really try to tap into different pockets of sort of the social, economic and political causes to say, hey, nuclear weapons impact you because so many people are very much detached from what nuclear weapons do and what their impacts are. So that's why we're really trying to make it as relevant to young people and to older people as much as possible and just say, hey, this issue really impacts us all. And I think that's why the doomsday clock is so important to raise issues. And really, it has been effective at kind of pinning nuclear weapons and the climate crisis together to say, hey, these are actually two of our biggest existential threats. And that's why youth fusion really, really works to promote that. And I think Ivan will talk a little bit more about some of his personal projects because they're very, very inspiring. Mahalo, Mikaela and very sobering reflection from youth to that sense of hope and potential despair if we don't take direct action immediately, but also really amazing deep sip of wisdom from the well that you share about how we have to connect all the dots, the feminist foreign policy perspective, but also going deeper really, it's a decolonization and a decarbonization where you know that, yes, indigenous people would have never tested nuclear weapons or detonate them on their sacred lands from their perspective of living in harmony with the land and being part of nature. And moving to Ivan, Ivan, can you share your perspectives when you heard about the doomsday clock being so close? Well, today I think young people are faced with this challenge. We are constantly wondering, how do we reach out to policymakers when they seem so estranged from us, especially when it comes to disarmament issues or how can we advance disarmament policies such as no first use, for example, that we want to see implemented in our future? And I think, well, we are faring pretty well. Today we are surrounded by an abundance of youth networks that engage the public in discussing the weaknesses and strength of the, let's say, the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons. We have the UN Youth for Disarmament Initiative. What I'm particularly alarmed by in the light of the doomsday clock announcement is that we as international community in general, we tend to shy away from creating common collaboration spaces with those we tend to portray as wicked or threatening, such as Russia, Iran, China. And the disarmament network we are trying to build is thus incomplete. And for this reason, I think Youth Fusion and other international youth led organizations are working towards challenging the conventional, you know, West East Drift and proposed a novel interpretation of the famous, let's say Russian American diplomatic hotline that in the 21st century goes well beyond that cooperation between the two giant superpowers and involves, you know, a greater deal of actors, young people, civil society organizations. And that set on positive that youth organizations contribution to building this nuclear weapons free world in cooperation with senior experts and well fellow campaigners like Mikaela just noted is essential to move the dial on the doomsday clock. And one of my personal projects is the youth hotline campaign that we're kind of developing right now. It's aimed to bring together young people who share the belief that disarmament efforts taken by Russia and the United States are critical to reading the world of nuclear weapons. We wanna foster this continuous knowledge exchange and bridge the trust gap between the two nations specifically concerning nuclear disarmament by creating an online platform where both the Russians and Americans would be able to engage in a direct informal dialogue. And I think this is what we need and I think this is what we're having right now. And I'm very grateful for you for organizing this amazing talk. Thank you. Well, the clock is ticking and the doomsday clock moved from 100 seconds to 90 seconds, measuring that theoretical point of annihilation. And the loss of 10 seconds, they say is due mainly to the war in Ukraine and the veiled threats of nuclear warfare as well as the existential threat though of climate change facing everyone on Earth but also even pandemics as well. Alan, can you show how you're connecting all these issues? I know you're recently at the Universal Periodic Review working group in Geneva but we know you do many other activities around the planet. So a key thing I'll follow up on from Evan on this is connecting across divides is so important. Whether that's at the international level, there's a divide between, for example, the Russian narrative surrounding the reasons for the invasion of Ukraine and the West narrative and the Ukraine narrative. And often the leaders are just talking past each other. I've been to like an OSCE of parliamentary assembly before the invasion and seen the Russians getting up and shouting at the Ukrainians and the Ukrainians shouting at the Russians and people were just taking sides and it didn't get anywhere. We have to respect that we will have differences of opinion with others but we have to bridge across that and try and engage with people whether that's the international level or whether it's within countries. There has been a division with the inside countries also and people not engaging with each other and just holding negative images and then just dissuicing other people have different things. So this hotline idea I think works at many different levels. It's really important and it goes along with the idea of what the United Nations was set up to do which was to establish security on a common security basis. This is the idea that security is not based just by defending yourself with weapons and threatening those who might disagree with you but considering that everybody has security concerns or issues. So what we needed was try and resolve conflicts. And so we do that through a number of mechanisms and many of them are established by the United Nations but they're also established through the OSCE the organization of security and cooperation in Europe through the Helsinki Accords. These include things like negotiation, mediation, good diplomacy, arbitration, adjudication which is like using courts international court of justice using international law and laying down legal principles so that you have a basis for moving ahead in agreement. This is laid out as I said in the United Nations and the United Nations has many ways civil society can come in and work with like-minded governments in the many different forms to advance these common security ideas. We can do it in the UN General Assembly where we can like adopt resolutions for example and initiate processes. We can do it in the International Court of Justice where we can help resolve conflicts using the law rather than using force or we can do it through the Human Rights Council where Joshua and I were just a couple of weeks ago because these issues are human rights issues. We have a right to life. We have a right to help the environment. We have a right to a sustainable future. These are all laid down in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other human rights instruments. And in the Human Rights Council and in the other human rights bodies, we as civil society can go in there and we can say, look, these governments, they're up to review they're not implementing these rights. Here are our recommendations and we have dialogue and we're heard. And we did this in an event in Geneva at the Human Rights Council on the side and follow up the Doomsday Clock announcement just last week. And we have really good engagement of governments, experts in that process. So I encourage people to think, look at the possibilities particularly through the United Nations to be able to take these ideas forward and engage. Thank you. For that holistic perspective, talking about the United Nations International Regime especially with human rights but also the OSCE and the four baskets looking at Helsinki are absolutely crucial. We know the Doomsday Clock points out that we're living in an unprecedented danger. Robert, can you share with us some ways that we can actually move that dial back a bit and show that we can actually save humanity as well as our own only planet Earth? Yes, the line I've taken is I don't think there's a switch you can turn and everybody suddenly gets rid of their nuclear weapons. I think in the real world we have to take steps and people just won't walk away from it straight away. So the first thing I think is to educate them that actually the biggest danger of nuclear weapons probably comes from inadvertent use or use through misunderstanding or just straight accidents. I mean in Hawaii from where your program is going not too long ago there was the alarm that went off and had the beta trigger happy, missile commander who decided he on his own initiative he'd fired would have had a nuclear war. Most people are not aware of the 14 or 15 serious incidents that have occurred which were really nuclear near misses. So that's one way of educating them. The second thing I try and do is to persuade people as a first step. Nobody really wants to fire a nuclear weapon deliberately as a first strike. People all talk about it being defensive a second strike weapon. So let's do away with first strike. No first use policy that President Biden said he endorsed but doesn't carry it forward but to generate support from that among a large number of people and to keep on pressing the matter. It's all about pressure and talk. I think the third thing is to keep pointing out the TPNW, the treaty to prohibit nuclear weapons compliments the new non-proliferation treaty doesn't replace it. It actually gives strength to article six of the NPT it's not in competition, it's what we're trying to do. And mainly just to keep on talking, educating putting the facts on the table. I've got two sons who are in the media business and when I said to them how do you get the message across and they say, Dad, you just keep on throwing stones into the pond and the ripples will travel and you never know how far just keep on throwing the stones. Well, Robert, we're glad you have a really good arm and we appreciate you for reminding us in Hawaii about that morning. I remember standing up after walking my dogs at Diamond Head, Leahi and looking over the Pacific and then people all of a sudden freaking out and trying to put their kids underneath manholes and we know there is no way to survive but that was just a moment, a 15 minute glimpse of what catastrophe we could face. We also thank you for bringing up the TPNW and the NPT. We have the tools and maybe Mikhaila you can share with us some of the actions that you're taking to remind people the same way Robert has, he talked about almost a dozen near circumstances like the Hawaii one and really nuclear is forever. It is life, so maybe you can share what the youth are doing to make sure that you never have to experience this in your lifetime. For sure, I think that that's a youth fusion specialty so to speak. I think that it's for us, we work on a very grassroots activism level. Of course, we also have some dealings from the top down level whenever we get the opportunity but my advice is to everyone, especially young people, everybody can be an activist. Everybody can take small actions. For example, with the climate movement, you can recycle, you can make social media posts and with nuclear disarmament, there are so many networks and organizations that'll take you in with open arms. Youth for TPNW, youth fusion, the youth in the UK, the CND youth has a very strong faction going on. Just do some research and you can even reach out to some of us at Youth Fusion, we can guide you in the right direction. There's so many things that you can do and just to share with you, when I started out three years ago, it was in the nuclear disarmament field, I was clueless, I didn't know much but I quickly learned and you can too. So just put yourself out there, don't be afraid and as I said again, I'll say it again, everybody can be an activist. Your voices will ripple as Robert said. Very true, we just need to be informed, be involved and to make a difference. Ivan, can you share a bit more about how you're making a difference and what youth can do? Right, I absolutely agree with Michaela's words that everyone's voice and everyone's action matters and I think what I'm particularly doing with Youth Fusion and Ask Secretariat at Abolition 2000 is literally putting everyone together joining the organizations, joining the movements, joining the campaigns, reposting, tweeting, reading. It is as essential as taking part in a huge event. What some of my peers and friends forget and I've had this conversation many times with them that well, a lot of my friends tend to believe that track, the second track diplomacy doesn't work. The back channel diplomacy is really not as efficient. Well, I've seen this play out very differently and I think it is the human connection that really helps change the perspective, the attitude of our governments, of our leaders, of our society and this is what I'm particularly interested in doing is understanding the people in the first place, their perspectives, connecting with them and then influencing them because we learn through each other and this is how our world works and I'm very happy to be part of the youth community for a disarmament and work with Mikayla and other beautiful people. It is, it's a beautiful trouble that we're making for a better tomorrow and it brings up the point that Alan was looking at last week is some of the governments called it sharp edges, that you have nuclear disarmament, that you have climate crisis, and that you have human rights and what we're really looking at is sort of shattering those silos. Alan, could you share in the future what vision we have so that we never have to think of this doomsday clock getting even closer, but more importantly, a future where everyone wants to wake up to a better way and shows what's possible with peace? Yeah, thanks Joshua. And one simple action that we have got which makes these connections is the appeal called protect people and the planet, appeal for a nuclear weapons free world. It starts off with the measure which Rob mentioned we need to prevent a nuclear war and call for no first use policies to be adopted. That's a call one, call two, we need a vision for a nuclear weapons free world. So that's the call at least by 2045, the 100th anniversary of the United Nations. And call three is let's shift the resources that are going into nuclear weapons, a hundred billion dollars a year, shift those into protecting the climate, into public health, into peace, into sustainable development, shift those resources, that makes the connection showing disarmament can help human rights and development. And that appeal is on our website unfoldzero.org and anyone can sign. And then if you do, we take that appeal into meetings in the United Nations. And it's a door opener, you know, where we say that we'd like to meet, you know, with a particular ambassador, because we'd like to present the appeal, you get the meeting and then they get to see, oh, look, there's lots of endorses from their countries. And what Ivan was saying is you create personal relationship with these people. You're not coming in as like an adversary, even though you might be disagreeing with their policies, you're coming in to share with them, open up talk and say, how can we work together for a nuclear weapons free world? This is something we need to do with those who rely on nuclear weapons at the moment. It's something we have to do also with those who still rely on fossil fuels. We can't treat them as enemies. We have to help people in the transition to a nuclear free and a fossil fuel free world. Thank you so much, Alan. And that really does bring us to the end, but we want to thank everyone for sharing about the students day clock. More importantly, for all of the actions that you're taking to make sure that we move towards peace as a human right, that we make sure that we have a clean, sustainable environment, and more importantly, a future that's free. And we thank you, Alan, as well as Robert for reinforcing that how you came at it from a financial aspect of how we could do better, but also understand the fundamental freedoms of the way that the world can be. Thank you both as well, Mikhail and Ivan, for dedicating your lives to a better world so that you and future generations also won't have to live in the world that we live in today, only 90 seconds away from Tuesday. Mahalo. Thank you so much for joining us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at think.kawaii.com. Mahalo.