 I thank you so much for thatwhile it was great to see it that as we are entering the stage where were investing in sustainable technologies and sustainable business, it's not just the responsible right thing to do, but it actually makes business sense. I think it's fantastic to see at the bottom that the sand shifter of the finance works ond heavily promoted here in Ireland with just some time for some questions from the floor. Anyone wants to click this off? Yes, if you would just state your name and we can. Thanks very much. Thank you, Laura. So Lar, thanks very much. It's really, really interesting. I went to one of sustainable nation events last week as well. and it was like they're all really, like they're in really future focus. So really, really interesting to listen to. A mynd i gan cyfnodd i'w cwestiwn, rydym y gynnydd iawn i dfiction. A genryd mewn cyfnodd i llwyddiol gryfleoedd ar pwysig ar gyfer tybiol ydi'r ysgrifesfaol o'r cyfnodd yn slol. Where you just wondering from your own experience, which one would you recommend and then which one is more popular or which one is getting more traction. I don't think I've quite made up my mind on the question as yet. Like the argument against divestment is that who's going to buy the shares and who's going to be left with the problems. You know there's always someone else who'll buy the shares and maybe they're, you know, what will happen? You're not actually getting anyone to change anything. You're just selling out of the stock and causing things to collapse basically and values to collapse. And the activism point that I think you're referring to is like instead engaging with the company. So like the way people are engaging with Shell, they're engaging with all the oil companies now and forcing them to basically, you know, forcing them to look at their business model and figure out okay does this business model work in a two degree scenario or a three degree scenario or a four degree scenario? And that is what the task force and climate relations disorders is all about, doing that risk analysis and then seeing how you need to change your business model. And I suppose, yeah, I kind of hadn't decided what way, what, when I'm coming down, but like I am about jobs. I think jobs are really important, you know, for people, for their values, for everything. And like do we want to see all these big huge oil companies completely going bust or you know, and all jobs being lost and value being lost, people losing their pensions because they're invested in them, et cetera. I think I prefer them to change to a different business model, put their money instead into renewables or into something that's more climate aligned. Doesn't always have to be renewables, they can do something else. But and putting their money into innovation and you know, like dealing with the reality. So I think now that you asked me, I think I probably am coming down on the side of engagement shareholder engagement and it's brilliant to see the investment managers, like the institutional investment managers like BlackRock, like these big guys, they can really move things because they have trillions of assets under management and they have big stakes built up in all these companies that they're holding on behalf of their ultimate investors. So BlackRock, I think they have five trillion of assets under management. If they make a decision to engage, they have such big stakes in the companies, then they can really force change through. And I think that probably is the way to go to kind of try and engage and just change the way business is done. And I think most, you know, there is always a reference change, you know, looks has changed. I think it does need to be forced most of all. So I think I'm coming down on the side of engagement activism. Yep. Kea McArthur, I work here at the IAA. Just two short questions, one kind of on the big macro side and then one on the micro side. So the slide you had with all the 20 different interactions, is there much of a, I guess a network effect or knock-on effect between those institutions? So when, for example, of a sovereign wealth fund investing something that's going to attract more private investments through bonds and vice versa. And if there is, who are the real leaders? Where are the sovereign wealth funds following the financial institutions the other way around? And is there kind of a government role in saying green finance is important, we're going to invest in it and you should follow us? Or how does that work? And then on the much smaller level, say, how does it work for individuals? Say you're somebody with a very modest, you know, you want to have your own little investments and you want to diversify and you have a few grand, maybe 10, 20 grand that you want to invest. Is there an avenue there for you to get involved in green finance or you just kind of have to trust that, you know, your portfolio managers are going to do it for you? Okay. On the macro one, the sovereign wealth funds are hugely important to this and they are the ones that are really, that really are starting to move the market and we're starting to move the debate and they're really important because they, by definition, have a long-term focus and they are saying, you know, they're investing for 50 years, not for two, you know, and they want to see their returns and I think that they are going to be the leaders and they are already leading in that way and I think it's really important that they do so and if you look at our own sovereign wealth fund, the ISF, so they were original signatories of the principles of responsible investment, they are just thought leaders and responsible investment in Ireland and they are starting to have influence on the other asset owners in Ireland who may need the large pension fund. So we do think sovereign funds are vital but that's where policy comes in because if you look at the other guys, right, so banking, technical markets, insurance, investment, nearly the problem with everyone else is that they have a short-term focus and they are not the way they might want to turn their money or they might only be able to invest it for three years or as people they might only want to do that but as well as institutions, they are all subject to regulation about what they can and can't do with their money, these are all highly regulated sectors. So policy is going to be key there and trying to move them from having a short-term focus maximising returns in the short-term in which case you might be happy to do something more volatile or taking a longer-term view and putting your money to work for 15 years in a wind farm and taking a lower return than otherwise but a more secure return. So arguably a better risk adjuster return but you do have to move that debate from short-termism to long-termism which is what all of the policy initiatives that I discussed earlier that are coming out, that's what they're all trying to do and the EU action plan on sustainable finance really focuses on that and I think we're going to see more and more regulation and legislation coming down from the EU in particular to try and shift that focus so that people do make long-term decisions rather than just focus on short-term returns. In relation to all your own personal bundles of wealth, obviously, I do think that's an issue and we have had calls into the office I want to invest, I want my pension invested in something that's sustainable, something that's making a difference even in a small way and that's where I think we need to push banks to offer retail products that have a suite of products so you can invest in XYZ or else you can invest in this green one that your risks and your returns are explained and you make your choice then. The idea that investing responsibility means lower returns is moving away and often the issue is that there's a confusion between ethical investment and responsible investment so what we're not talking about responsible investment ethical investment anymore, responsible investment is simply about taking all factors so you're not just looking at the financial historical performance and the expected financial future performance of a company that they tell you you're looking outside of that what are the environmental factors that's going to hit this company? What's their supply chain look like? Have they got factories somewhere that have poor labour conditions and you're taking all those other factors into account when you're investing so there are increasing numbers of retail products out there there is a question about greenwashing and all that kind of stuff but I think Ireland especially I think they're more advanced in Europe we need to start pushing our banks and our product providers that we want these type of options either climate aligned ones, pure environmentally sustainable themed investment options or else or else responsible investment or ESG type performance and options I think people power might be new to this Thank you Thank you Thank you from SCAR Thanks for your very inspiring presentation I convinced Ireland as the global leader in green finance My question is about post subsidy world for newables or for one without phrase left generous subsidy phase so electricity aside most of the wind farms and the renewable projects in Ireland were built in part because they give investors very reliable revenue secure, very low risk and we're moving beyond that across Europe I'm just interested to get your view on high capital markets opinion about that investors opinion about less generous return more competitive options more market measures to support renewables have we seen a boom and now it's kind of flatline or is investment and renewable actually going to continue? I think you have to compare to the other options so I'm not an expert on this area but if institutional investors are looking for investment opportunities projects in Europe and Germany I think there's an offshore wind project that doesn't need a subsidy now that won an auction so projects are moving to be non subsidised and that's because the capex of the solar kit and the capex of the wind kit is coming down and I think investors are savvy enough now like your black rocks and your Brookfields and all these guys, they're savvy enough now they know the data they have is better in terms of the future wind resource or solar resource they can model this all out and they'll make their decisions based on the risk adjust to return and compare it to where they can put their money to work otherwise so if they're comparing it to putting it on deposit obviously even if it's lower returns but improved as against that they won't be able to take a bit more risk the way I think it's stacking it up against what are their other options but I do think if the if the returns aren't there the projects just won't get built without the subsidies people will be smart they'll only put their money in if the returns are there full stop so I do think subsidies will go away once the returns are there anyway so people on that obviously there's still huge opportunities like any economy genius in developing countries the first 10 or 20% renewables we put on the grid is really easy to do but there's started to be more and more problems in the early energy markets with negative energy prices and there's a lot of issues that come with that and there's still a huge amount of implicit subsidies in the way renewables are treated that they're constrained on and they don't provide to things like system services and it's another danger that as those implicit subsidies become explicit they might be changed at some point retroactively that you could be putting investors up to serious harm because a lot of them are still relying on those implicit subsidies that they get to run anytime they want and those costs are starting to become apparent in places like Germany and you're seeing a lot of opposition so there's still huge opportunities outside around 20% but it looks like it might plateau where the opposition is going to grow because the last cost and the only thing I'd say there is I do believe in policy certainty I'm not an expert on renewable energy systems but I do think if you're an investor and you're putting your money in for a 15 year period or a 7 year period or whatever it is on a certain date on the basis of you know you're making your assessment of the facts and to the extent things are guaranteed under legislation and a government is asking an investor to put their money in this is my view right I think you know the way you shouldn't then be making retroactive changes make them going forward and then people who are coming in at this point can decide okay I put my money in back then because I was happy with X% and now if I put my money in here well I'm looking at a different profile and it's going to be much reduced and I'm not as happy with that that's fine they won't come in again but if you have retroactive changes it'll impact the people who put their money in back here and they'll definitely never come in again you know the way give people a choice and I think I know things are changing the whole time and capex prices are coming down for the actual case but I do think investors make their decisions and they take a risk you know at the time on multiple different things I don't think they should be having to take a risk on policy stability or retroactive change that's just my own view and I don't know a huge amount of it about it but like there are implicit subsidies for fossil fuels as well they always talk about it so when are we going to price them in true well I think you know a lot of the implicit ones and I think you know some of them and it's only when you get to a higher level that it becomes clear it becomes a bigger issue you know what is the tricky one Thanks can I actually ask a question I'm just interested in how it sort of works on the ground first nationally in Ireland how is your communication with government working do you have structured channels the panel of finance the panel of communications, climate action and environment I think everyone is green and sustainable finance is new like I said I didn't even know what's working on it it's only well defined in the past two years but now it's really well defined but national countries are trying to keep up with the pace of change I feel like Ireland as a whole private sector and public are on a bit of a journey and finance is right and it's the same journey other countries are on so I do think we all need to go on a bit of journey together and I do think a good opportunity for the private sector to hear what governments are thinking and vice versa is in public private forums you know the way such as the finance green Ireland initiative so that both are hearing you know the sides I do think half the battle with green finance is explaining what it is you know the way I often find myself explaining to taxi drivers what it is and they go oh yeah I know what it means you know the way and part of it is I think just like I say the work I do is I work with both the public sector and the private sector to raise awareness of the opportunity that is green finance and I think that you know we do work with the department of finance they will have said publicly that they would regard sustainability as a bridge so a bridge between public and private and I'm really you know I think that's a great way of describing it because I think everyone needs to be on the same page facing forward selling Ireland I think on that point just I'm wondering you said there's about 20 sort of green financial services centres globally out of about 100 is there any sort of communication or happening among those sort of sharing about best practice and what have you So the UN has set up centres a network of financial centres for sustainability Sustainable Nation joined that last September so this is it's all new so the first meeting of that was in Casablanca last September the inaugural meeting was in Italy by two weeks ago Stephen Nolan went over to it our CEO so there is a lot happening and it's like I said many financial centres compete and they say I'm doing this and I'm doing that but like in this sector it's so broad it affects everything and everyone has their own little speciality so Luxembourg is amazing at green bonds they're amazing at that but they were actually in the right place at the right time for the World Bank and the EIB where the first ones list green bonds 10 years ago they list them in Luxembourg that's where they always list Luxembourg saw this as a growth area they've gone for it they have a green exchange now a full green exchange for stocks and shares and debt so Luxembourg are really good at that I think Ireland we're kind of brilliant at international financial services and therefore we can be brilliant at green international financial services but I think our real talent is that renewable energy finance talent cluster and by the way we're also brilliant at the bar's truth ones and with a good view then in our network and London is amazing for equities but they don't really do bonds you do bonds but not as much as we do London is great for indices great for analysis France is amazing on loads of different levels but not particularly bonds but they're amazing at thought leadership at again a data analysis you know ESG data providers and thought leaders and stuff they're amazing at and the whole country is behind sustainable finance there it's amazing what Macron has done Germany has Frankfurt has a centre and they are brilliant at they have loads of like UN bodies and kind of headquarters there and they're kind of make a lot out of that so I think each different financial centre is a little USP its own but everyone's recognising that you don't nearly need, of course we're competing but you nearly don't need to because the opportunity is so huge let's just all go for it and sell what we can do and then hopefully we'll make a bit of a change that's really interesting that note unless we have any any last minutes it's actually your centre does everybody wants to go for it there might be a lot of stranded assets then as well has that been quantified how much of a challenge that would be I think there's loads of different numbers on it aren't there so the stranded assets being I suppose the fast few reserves you can take out of the the ground if you want to stay within 2 degrees the unburnable fossil fuels basically and any companies that depends on those or own those reserves or on the value chain that will drive their value from those where it will be in trouble I think a number of different numbers have been put on it and that's why the whole thing about companies disclosing their climate-related financial risks is so important this is the TCFD and this is why we're this is Mark Carney Mark Carney is the Governor of the Bank of England he's the head of the Financial Stability Board that was set up after the crash the global one and he sees climate change as a huge risk for the global financial system again he is looking at it really dispassantly he's looking at the numbers and he's saying there's going to be stranded assets risk there's going to be this, that and the other is that companies need to disclose the information so investors can make their decision and the market can adjust over time because if climate change is happening it'll be too late nearly for the financial system there will be another crisis and another systemic systemic risk from stranded asset issues etc so he really sees that and that's why I think the task force and climate-related scholars is so important so that there is a gradual adjustment rather than just we go off a cliff we say okay we cannot touch those parts of our fuel reserves from this date and then the whole financial system could potentially be in trouble and he sees that and that is being increasingly recognised and that's why I think the TCFD is so important I suppose on that note we can bring the Q&A to a close and before we finish up I just wanted to thank you for coming and it's just fantastic to see people coming to these events networking and finding out what variety of topics and I think tonight's talk was particularly excellent do stick around for some one more drink a few more, there's plenty of questions and welcome to be done MyLoud even though I'm over 35 I won't disclose how much over I am I think we can make it and we hope to see you again for our next event which will be on the 24th of May which will be with Ronan Tynan who's going to talk about the movie Seria the Impossible Revolution so that should be quite interesting as well I suppose we'll be emailing out more information and disseminate through our social media channels and the like as well and finally may I just on your behalf thank Laura for what was quite a heartening presentation actually because saying that climate change mitigation doesn't have to mean austerity, it doesn't have to mean the hair shed as it were it can, if we can shift those financial flows and if we can catalyse that finance it can actually be this tremendous opportunity for growth and prosperity so thank you and we wish you the best of success and hope to see you again at the institute, thank you very much