 Jill, who's associated with this organization, for those of you who don't know Jill. I think it's one at a time. As far as the law of the seas concerned, it became clear to me after a period of time that there were many people migrating to Europe by sea, often across the Mediterranean elsewhere, but the ability of law enforcement in general to engage with that, often by the way, in near-slave conditions. I mean really, they are really the modern equivalent of the slave trade is what is happening. But the ability in international waters of any law enforcement agency to be able to engage in that is extremely limited. I understand why that has been the case historically, but I don't think it really works in the current era. There are more particular examples of, for example, the piracy of the Horn of Africa, where there are also some issues about the ability to intervene. And there were some complicated issues like the Royal Navy, for example, the UK Royal Navy, said that it couldn't intervene with a certain ship, because if they intervened, then the people would then in the ship who were the people being trafficked would immediately have the right to residents in the UK, forever type of thing. And so that stops it happening. And I just think there's a set of issues which I don't understand in full, but do require a reassessment of how the law of the sea set up in rather different circumstances, does in fact operate in relation to these. And as I say, I don't think it should be underestimated the terrible conditions that some people are being transported in by sea to come into the EU, really shocking to see. As far as the broader issues are concerned, it is difficult. The way in which the European Convention on Human Rights is operated and the question of what is a human right and prevention of torture and so on has gradually been expanded, the definition, basically by the jurisprudence of the court decisions themselves in recent years. And it does require and has led to quite serious position. For example, I sat around the cabinet table in Tony Blair's government and there was a serious discussion about whether the UK should leave the European Convention of Human Rights. Michael Howard, who was then the leader of the opposition, thought we should leave the European Convention of Human Rights. I think this would be a terrible thing. But the fact is that unless you can get the convention working in a way that relates to the modern conditions, it would be more difficult to defend what's happening. And there's been a process launched following a meeting with the Council of Europe in Turkey, I think it was last year, to try and look more carefully at how it could operate. It's very difficult to secure reform because it requires agreement of all governments, of course, and that's very difficult to achieve. But I think it is important to put it on the agenda. And again, for the same reason, the total presentation I've made, actually, which is that these things have to have the confidence of the peoples of the countries. At the end of the day, if they don't have the confidence of the peoples of the countries, then you're always liable or there's always a risk of being in a position that you get overthrown by the opinion of people in certain countries. And that means that the whole range of legal frameworks are seriously undermined. As far as sanctions on employers are concerned, I'm in favour of very strong sanctions on employers, but I think the way to tackle it is through work conditions and the question of how strongly you enforce the basic labour law of the conditions in which people work. Again, to take the UK example, I don't know to what extent it's true in Ireland, there have been some appalling cases of people working in the most appalling situations. One of the most famous was the cocoa pickers in Morgan Bay who perished as a result of the situation. And it was really because the gangmasters who controlled that were not subject to effective legal regulation and what they operated. They absolutely had no care for their employees, not even employees or any of the people who worked for them. And as a result, people died. And I think that there's a relatively small group of employers who behave in a very unacceptable way and we need to have strong sanctions. When I was MP for Norwich South in Britain, we had a very difficult case of people who had sanctions being taken against restaurateurs who were employing illegal Chinese immigrants. And they were very upset they came to me and said this is completely wrong and so on. They had a whole set of explanations which had some weight. But at the end of the day my position, I'm afraid, was that actually the law needs to be enforced strongly and that requires people who employ in bad circumstances including employing legal immigrants should not be permitted to do it. So I take a very strong line on that. Thanks, George. Tom. Thank you very much. Fascinating presentation. Tom Huy who's the treasurer of this institution. Sorry. Thank you for paying for the hotel. This is an area of interest to me, but particularly from the perspective of the area of funding but the findings of the Chihuahua race group, Europe will need tens of millions of migrant workers. If you actually start from that perspective, it becomes how do we actually structure a situation that permits people who have been cared and better to come to Europe and therefore that they wouldn't have to cross the border between Turkey and Greece or across the Mediterranean. It's important that they could actually come where the need is greatest. Although ironically, I believe that this means one of the countries that will have to be the set especially in terms of our work on the title. However, I would like to make a couple of quick comments because I was involved as an advisor at the European industry level at the time of the single market and I know that Ireland actually was happily embraced from the people in Europe and Mrs. Hatcher came out of the conference and said, no, it doesn't mean we have to move passports at all at all, much of the consternation of everybody else. And I do believe that for most of the international period, if not right now, that Ireland would have to join Changin if the UK had to join Changin. And because I was the executive director at Dublin Airport, I also know that the lion's share of the legal migrants to Ireland before we were being post-controls came from the UK and we said that's why the controls were reintroduced on Ireland to the UK since the free travel area was discussed. Well, just to say, I completely understand the last point you made. It's completely right. But I think the interesting part of your question, is what will be the labour needs of the European Union over the next 30 or 40 years? There are already a wide range of different schemes to encourage people to work in the EU more or less legally. In Poland, there's a lot of schemes for Ukrainians to come in the summer. Latin America, many people come from Latin America to Spain in Portugal. On some kind of basis, there are various schemes of what's called circular migration where people come for particular short terms to meet particular skills and needs. I think the thing which nags away at me most is the experience of the UK where it's absolutely clear there is a section of the population let's say for the sake of argument, 15%, who actually are completely socially excluded, who actually are not able for whatever reason to get work and in their absence of ability to do that work, migrants come in and do it. It's not at all obvious why a young Polish woman can work in a bar in London and get the job and do very well, whereas a young woman from Peterborough can't do that. What's the reason? What's happened? And I'm absolutely certain that the long-term argument for that, if you're talking 20 or 30 years, is to improve what we do to ensure that the young people in this country, in the UK and Ireland, are able to take jobs in the labour market very directly and that's the way to make it happen. I don't think on the current basis, if you simply exclude migration into the country, that that works because at the end of the day, the people I'm talking about don't end up doing the jobs. It's not the fact that they're losing the competition, they're not even competing. But that raises absolutely major fundamental questions about the way we are able to ensure that the whole of our populations are able to do competent jobs at different levels. And it's not only a question of young people, it's also a question of how late in life people work, if the population gets older, what do we think about raising the retirement age, what do we think about people working to 70 rather than 65, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And these are, of course, enormous and big questions. And the problem about all the speculation, including the Philippa Gonzalez report, is there's all kinds of speculation about where it might be, but based on quite dodgy economic models, I would say, about what the position is going to be. I would also argue that a failure of the European Union has been the Lisbon programme, which was about economic growth and regeneration. I don't think that's really succeeded. And so I think the priority in labour is to focus on the people who currently live in the European Union really to ensure they can all do the jobs, have the capacity to do the jobs which are here. And that's a bigger priority than migrating more people into the EU, into that situation. But it's also a much more difficult priority because the truth is there are many people coming from India or China who've got tremendous capacity to work here. And it's a lot easier to say, let's bring somebody from Mumbai in than it is to get somebody who's a socially excluded person in Peterborough or Cork up to the level to do that kind of job. And so we'll duck it. But I think that's a question we can't keep on ducking at the end of the day. Thanks, John. The gentleman at the back for a story. Sure. Just by your mention of Turkey, you mentioned that Turkey should be during the Union and it might help battle off the border with Greece. But doesn't it in turn create a massive problem having the European Union right in the border of Iraq, present-day Syria and other countries beyond it as well to the east? So would you, in fact, magnify the problem by having this massive border with very difficult territories beyond it? I don't think so myself. I agree that the issue's a real one. The argument's put in slightly different terms by some of the big leaders. I remember when I was Home Secretary, Nicholas Arcos was Interior Minister, and he argued very in private, very, very directly that the EU was a Christian continent and we didn't want Muslims coming in. Thank you very much. And that's why we couldn't have Turkey. Now I think that simply is not an appropriate way to look at what is the EU today, which is a very diverse community in all kinds of ways. Or I remember the Prime Minister Bavaria saying to me, we had this argument about Turkey coming in. He said the time's not right, it's not ready yet. And we were doing sort of dinner in Berlin, and I said, well, if now's not right, when would be right? And he said, the year 3000. I've never forgotten. And this was an extremely influential finger in Angela Merkel's coalition government. And I accept you can decide we never want Turkey. And in many ways, we'd better to make that decision rather than to keep the thing going and teetering on. I would not say we should take that decision, however, because I think the consequence of saying to Turkey, we don't want you, and much of their aspiration is European, is to drive them into a different position in relation to all the countries you're describing, which in fact is happening now to an extent where they see that as their point of reference rather than Europe as their point of reference. And I think we would be in a stronger position if Turkey saw us unequivocally as their center of reference, which they don't at the moment because they know all these signs that I've just described, and weren't distancing themselves from us. And I think in terms of dealing with situations in Iraq, Syria, or wherever it may be, we do much better with Turkey as a strong part of our group, as of course has been the case in relation to NATO since shortly after the Second World War. I think we'd be in a much stronger position that way around rather than the other way around. I think the other thing I'd just like to emphasize is the point I made earlier. Most people, if you went out on the street here or you went out on the street in London, would say that people coming into the EU from Turkey are Turkish. Actually, that's not the case, and we would do a lot better to have a stronger external border of the border of Turkey than we do on this border to make sure that Turkey itself was not subject to many people coming through from many of the countries you're talking about. But I'm now of the strong view that we should encourage Turkish membership and go to carry through what actually the EU's already decided. And I also think the current uncertainty about implementing what the EU's already decided is damaging. But I will concede to your argument that there is a case for saying that they shouldn't be in, but then in that case I think we'd do better to say right now they're not in. Well, Germany and Austria are slightly more complicated, despite what I said, because the very large Turkish population within those countries and the relationship between the leadership of Germany who've made some interesting recent visits to Istanbul and the Turkish question is probably much more intimate than certainly the UK's and probably I'd say Ireland's as well. And so I think it's quite possible to recognise it's in their national interest in terms of their countries to have a Turkey within the EU. France is slightly more difficult. I think that there's a there's an unhealthy, and this is an undiplomatic thing to say, so I say it with great hesitancy with you here because you're a diplomat through and through in every aspect of your being. I don't think the French are facing up to these kind of issues in the way that they need to at all and they're fighting battles on Ban the Burka and all the rest of it from an entirely populist angle led by Nicolas Sarkozy which I think is very damaging to proper debate about these things. And that has to change, that's all. Thank you, Charles. The lady here, please. Hi, I'm Margaret. I'm part of the joint community SD. I'm just curious as to like the measures that you outlined are surely those that tackle symptoms and not causes. And, you know, if you start to look at causes it's quite easy, you know, you can follow the money. And perhaps measures of regulating multinational corporations businesses and profits from countries and leaving more money in the countries is the flow of wealth that the people are following. You know, if there was regulation on that flow of wealth all coming to Europe instead of staying in the countries where a lot of natural resources are extracted, it might prevent what you described as all those horrible people wanting to come. I didn't say all those horrible people. Yeah, it was that UK and Ireland felt that because they were surrounded by sea it would stop all those horrible people coming to my house. That was said with Ireland. That was said with Ireland. I'm sorry if I certainly don't think they're all those horrible people and thought it's worth. I agree with everything you said. I do think I'm talking about symptoms, not causes. I do think the causes are in a globalised world how the economic relations operate across the world. I also think that both trade-nade policies are to achieve a more equitable economic development across the world is the way to do it. However, I observe and I'm sure you would agree that if you look at the various efforts to achieve economic growth, for example in sub-Saharan Africa there are many, many obstacles on the route to doing that which aren't only the world multinational corporations but also many, many other serious issues about where the money goes and how it operates in those countries which are entirely real and significant problems. But if you make the general point about symptoms, not causes, well I agree. And if you then make the further argument that you have to address the causes, well I agree with that too. And I believe that right back to when I was a student doing economics and looking at the various UNTED reports in various countries of the world the question of how you stimulate economic growth and what you do is absolutely central to this. But you can take it in a position, I'm not sure if you take it probably not, that there should be no migration controls at all, there should be no border control we live in a world economy and the way to deal with that is to let everybody travel freely throughout the world looking for work or whatever it may happen to be. I don't myself think that's a realistic policy at all. And I think if you have borders at all then you have to decide how you're going to police and what the rules are and how it operates and they have to be operated with the cooperation agreement support of the peoples of the countries concerned. The other question that you raised I think is a very interesting question and insufficiently researched which is the question of remittances the issue of remittances for example from the Turkish community in Germany to Turkey and how that operates is a highly relevant part of economic development discussions and I believe that I'm open to correction on this. There's been a relatively small amount of academic work done on this to understand really how remittances have worked as a result of migration and when you talk about circular migration schemes for example as I was saying in answer to Tom's earlier point you can have quite interesting examinations of how the remittances from a period of employment in the EU can help the economic development in the country from which the individuals have come and that requires quite a lot of thought process but if you so I actually agreed with most of what you said except the attribution to me of a set of views which are not mine which as I'm in politics I'm very familiar with that but I'd hoped here in Ireland that never happened I thought that you were the model of the perfect political community unlike we corrupt individuals in London and it wouldn't happen but apart from that remark I agreed with what you said but I don't know if the consequence of what you were saying was really we shouldn't worry about immigration policies we should just go for the causes I say we've got to go for both the causes and the symptoms thank you Willis Galli he's a member of the Institute which he doesn't want to switch a little bit to the economic drivers I mean just make one primary point for context that populations who write the EU of migration obviously the EU from outside the EU but in terms of what populations feel you know migration inside the EU is also highly relevant that's the peak of a lot of differences so that is an issue in Ireland you know and the UK we did adopt a sort of a liberal policy and an argument just separate years ago to accelerate entry from the new European countries and that was for economic reasons that was a major supply of reasons I mean the Irish economy was growing on the customer what we thought was an eternal wave and you know you need the foreign to set it in and it wasn't in the context for a well thought out iteration a sort of social education of migration sort of approach here and you do get there for I think in the economic drivers the you want to say the wealthy are quite happy with immigration with immigrants because you know they may serve in shops or they may be navies or they may be old payers or whatever or on the maybe cheap labor for their industries in terms of less issues immigrants are seen in the economic sense very often as competitors and also quite often as you know a big priority on social services and holding up accused and so on now all that I think in the context of Europe it kind of go out and you would get people who would say you know that the media and what people say in public what people feel and the confidence obviously is different because I can't the thing is out of the open and I'm not saying the Irish are racist I don't think we are but I think there are problems connected with this emphasis on migration for economic reasons without a sort of cultural education on social integration that should go with and that would maybe particularly come to this in the context of recession in Europe European output is barely at 2007, 2008 levels now and you know the short term growth prospects let's face it it's just we'd like to comment on that whole sort of integration area not just the migrants from outside the EU but far on the internal sort of ships of population inside the EU itself firstly I need to emphasize that this piece I've done is entirely about migration into the EU I completely agree with your point there is a massive issue about migration within the EU and various words are used like integration and so on to deal with it which I'm also interested and I do quite a lot in but this wasn't addressed here now what do I think about migration within the EU firstly I think it's very difficult to talk about a common EU policy across this cultures in different communities within the EU are very very different Cork is very different from Marseille is very different from Tallinn and so on and trying to suggest one can have the similar policies in each of these areas I don't think is correct but you have to have a positive approach towards integration you have to have a positive approach towards enabling people to live side by side and work together I believe that much of the criticism of what happened when the A8 countries were given the access to come in is over blown in Britain for example classically the Polish plumbers and so on I would say in our home sector during the time there is very little evidence that actually the arrival of the Poles and the Baltic citizens really damaged the labour market in a significant way but I agree with you that people have a perception that it does and also have perception that there is fundamental social services that are being deprioritised actually again I looked at this in detail in many cities in Britain and I simply think it wasn't the case but people believed it was the case and therefore it's important to address it and take it seriously so I do think you have to have a set of policies which really address the issues and you go through them in some detail and I believe that's entirely possible and I think certainly in Ireland certainly there are some very successful examples of policies which have worked in various ways I also agree that only a very small minority of people would I would really describe as a racist in a serious way there are of course racists who are genuinely racist in what they do but in most cases people have frightened of change happening in various ways and they take out their fears in terms of the potential changes that are coming how do you deal with that you have to try and reduce the fears that people have that's why I wrote this pamphlet because I think one of the fears that people have is that migration or immigration is essentially anarchic is happening people don't know what's happening they don't know who's entitled to be here they don't know why they came here they don't know why they can't go home etc etc etc and I think that governments have a duty and I believe it's best done at an EU level to establish a set of rules where everybody understands exactly what those rules are and how they operate and if that happens I think that reduces potential opportunities for racism in various circumstances which is why I argue that but that's also true when you're talking about housing waiting lists or schools or whatever it may happen to be illustrating that actually that what exists can exist in a multicultural society where people as in many London schools there are literally hundreds of languages spoken in some London schools does this make them worse schools my children attended one of these schools in fact they made them far better schools because you had people coming from a wide variety of different backgrounds to those in those circumstances but more difficult schools more difficult for the teachers more difficult for the students in some cases more difficult for the parents and you've got to give support to help people provide the best education in those circumstances and as I said earlier on the jobs competition front I think that's about ensuring that everybody's able to compete for the jobs which are available and I think that means dealing with the fact that certain communities are essentially completely excluded from that process we know between Britain and Ireland there have been all kinds of quotes integration unquotes issues between British and Irish people in these two islands over the last hundred years not always easy to resolve sometimes very unpleasant leading to very unpleasant situations but people simply have to work at trying to achieve a situation where people can live together and in our cases it wasn't an issue of skin colour or whatever but it was an issue of different cultures and different circumstances which did lead to tensions in some cities which have thank goodness been resolved over or never say resolved moved towards being resolved over time and I think that's what's required a kind of consistent effort to ensure that people can live side by side without the fears being there but I'm more optimistic about this I believe that actually there's a lot of evidence of people having worked reasonably successfully in these areas and an ability to deal with the problems that exist in a reasonably constructive way thank you George this will have to be the last question thanks I know Waters head of immigration here in Ireland and Dublin and thank you George for a very clear exposition of these issues here in Ireland of course we were very late arrivals to the whole debate 15 years ago I walked into the immigration service of the department as a junior official and it wasn't an issue at all we've learned a huge amount of 15 years and we've been able to benefit from the experience of other countries and all the issues we spoke about today are very much live in our radar and what we do every day with our government so we're learning all about that I was very taken by what you said was Schengen and I think you made a point or somebody made a point that if we had a choice would we be in Schengen would we be elsewhere of course we would be in Schengen I think it's pretty well known clearly well way to the UK position in terms of the common travel area and the balance of our benefit at the moment is with the common travel area but my question is do you sense any shift in movement in political terms in the UK of all joining Schengen no I'm very much a minority voice I think in fact the whole European debate in Britain is an extremely bad place both on the euro issues on the economic issues and so on I blame Labour to a significant degree for this because we didn't take on the issues positively enough when we were in government in my view but the current government is also exacerbating some of those issues and classically David Cameron's veto at the European Council in November last year I think it's very serious now I was saying over lunch that one of the things that's happened is that for the last 30 years I've seen European politics most of the other main European countries have wanted the UK to be part and hope that the UK would come around to do it and taken confidence from the rhetoric of even John Major the heart of Europe Tony Blair and so on that they thought we would be there and I think for the first time I've seen I was in Berlin just at the time last year saying well if you're not interested we're not interested and that will lead to a whole freezing of a whole set of relationships where goodwill won't be there which I think will be very damaging to the UK now for you who are tied in the common travel area for reasons which I completely understand and respect that then has knock-ons for you because obviously you joined the Euro and you've had to go through this very difficult period in the last three or four years it seems to me relatively successfully no doubt tell me whether I'm right or not about that that the consequences of a UK freesaw with the rest of the EU for Ireland could potentially be difficult and require I would say from your point of view some thinking through of where you are on these questions it's been possible and I think there is a case for Ireland in its conversations with the UK to quite seriously say look we want good relations with the rest of the EU and so please when you conduct yourself in a way that makes it easier rather than more difficult but obviously the British government sovereign it will decide what it's going to do and it won't listen to me and it may not even listen to you in the situation and we'll have to see what happens but I feel quite gloomy about it that's why I make another reason I wrote this pamphlet because everybody is obviously focused on the economic issues and so on quite rightly so but actually there's a wide range of other issues where we need to have strong cooperation with our colleagues in the EU not just these but things like the environment common foreign policy it's still ridiculous we haven't even got all the EU countries agreeing with to recognise Kosovo or not could we have a positive approach on Syria could we have a positive approach on many international questions and we need to work in my opinion take the stance very much that's where you want to be you're one of the main protagonists and beneficiaries of the European relationship obviously very difficult economically now but in this area of justice and home affairs you've given priority as I say rightly in my opinion to the common travel area but I think you'll be put under some pressure if the UK doesn't continue to have a good relationship with the rest of the EU and I worry about that Charles thank you very much indeed