 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I am Paranjoy Gohar Thakurtha. The assembly elections in Karnataka are scheduled to take place on the 10th of May. The outcome of the elections would be known on the 13th of May. There are several issues that influence preferences of voters across India, across the world and certainly in Karnataka. What will those issues be? Will it be the hijab issue, tensions between the Hindus and Muslims? To what extent would caste factors play an important role? But for the purpose of discussion, this discussion, I'm going to focus on one issue, corruption. And to what extent would corruption be an important issue in the elections that are going to take place very soon? And I'm very happy to welcome over a Zoom call all the way from Bengaluru, a person I had interviewed almost exactly five years ago and I asked him precisely the same set of questions. I'm very happy to welcome N. Santosh Hegde, now almost 82, former judge of the Supreme Court of India, former Solicitor General of India and the Lokayukta or the people's ombudsman in Karnataka from 2006 to 2011. Thank you so much Mr. Santosh Hegde for giving us and the viewers of NewsClick your time. When we talked before the 2018 Assembly elections, you expressed your sadness and disappointment how the Bharatiya Janta Party had fielded former Chief Minister V.S. Yadu Rappa as its Chief Ministerial Candidate, ostensibly because he had been given a clean chit by courts of law by the Central Bureau of Investigation. Earlier your report had showed how he and his family members, his sons, his son-in-law had benefited directly, indirectly from the scandal relating to illegal exports of iron ore from Karnataka and you pointed, you gave specific names, you named JSW, Jindal Steel Works and its head, Sajjan Jindal, you named the Adani Group, you named several large corporates and you all pointed out the manner in which large amounts of money went to private trusts, family education trusts that were controlled by Mr. Yadu Rappa's family. You pointed it out. After your report, Mr. Yadu Rappa became one of the few Chief Ministers, sitting Chief Ministers of a state in India, who had to spend time behind bars for a little over three weeks. Then you know what happened, after the 2018 elections, the Congress and the Janta Dal secular government didn't last. Mr. Yadu Rappa was back in power as the Chief Minister and then in 2021, he was jettisoned and replaced by Mr. Basavaraj Bombay. But corruption continued to grow and I'm going to ask you to comment on some of the major scandals, corruption scandals in Karnataka. But how do you react to the Bharata Janta Party and the Prime Minister of India, Mr. Narendra Modi, again wooing Mr. Yadu Rappa, ostensibly because he is an influential leader of the Lingayath community in Karnataka and we know they are really influential. And nine out of the 23 Chief Ministers of Karnataka have been Lingayaths. So I'm asking you to sort of weave in the caste factor and the anti-incumbency factor into whether or not corruption will be a major issue in the run up to the elections. Your views, sir. I'm not going to speak specifically about Mr. Yadu Rappa only. I'm going to speak in general what corruption is doing in the state of Karnataka and the present elections also. I start by saying in my 82 years of life, I have seen many an elections, but the present election that is going to happen in the month of May, the electioneering also. I have never seen such low level electioneering in my life. There is no holds barred, no laws followed, no ethics whatsoever in the electioneering process by all the parties that are contesting elections and all. You asked me about the question of corruption being involved as an issue in the election this time. I don't think that's an issue at all. People of Karnataka seem to have accepted corruption as a thing that we have to live with it and all. Because if you see the promises that are being made by all the political parties, which according to me is nothing but corruption in my opinion. Impossible things are being promised and all. And I think the voters are accepting it and all. For example, one political party has said that if they are elected and brought to power, they will take the reservation percentage to 75%. Knowing very well the judgment of the Supreme Court has specifically stated any reservation over and above 50% is unconstitutional. In spite of that, they are making promises that they are going to have reservation to the extent of 75%. What does it indicate? Are you not wooing the voters on the promise which is unconstitutional? But they are not bothered about it and all. If that be the thing and the promises made by other parties also, one party has made 13 promises assuring financial aid. And one of them is giving two lakhs to a girl who is willing to marry a farmer boy, a boy who is involved in farming profession. What is the meaning of this? Is this a social reform? Is it for the benefit of the society? Another party says for free bus travel in the government buses for women. Look at the promises that is being made. In Delhi, women are allowed to travel free on buses. Every politician always makes these promises before the elections. It is a separate matter that the promises are not adhered to. But isn't it a way of corruption to offer all these things to receive vote? Maybe he knows that if he comes to power he won't implement this. But would it not amount to a false representation inducing people to vote on the base of false promises? Is it not type of it? Justice Heddy, I get your point. But are you not being excessively cynical when you say the people of Karnataka have come to accept corruption as a way of life? I mean, the opinion polls indicate that the present regime, the present government headed by Mr. Basav Raj Bombay is extremely unpopular. And one of the reasons for its unpopularity is corruption. And the brazen kind of corruption that we've seen. I mean, in the last year or so alone, we've seen several major scandals. I'll just name a few. I mean, the state government has been accused by the Karnataka Contractors Association that they are taking a 40% cut on every contract. They have written to the Prime Minister of India. We've had the Linga at sea, Dhingaleshwara Swamiji of Balehamsur Mat. He has accused governments, the government officials of taking a 30% commission to release funds for that religious body. We've had school associations of schools writing to the Prime Minister that the Education Department of Karnataka is asking them for bribes for the recognition certificates. I mean, one after the other, we are seeing scandal after scandal. Wouldn't this have some impact on the electorate? According to me, no, because the methodology of voting is such it is based early on caste basis or religious basis. That's the foundation of the voting at least in Karnataka. That's why people get re-elected in spite of the fact there are serious allegations against them. The percentage of people against whom criminal cases are pending. If you look into it and all, how dare they contest election unless being a criminal is a qualification to be elected. That is not confined to any one political party. What you are saying now is because of BJP's in power and they are reusing that power to make money only. And similar was the case when it was the previous government but not the 40% it was much less. Maybe because rupee value was more than. No, I'm just saying, I repeat the point, you are sounding excessively cynical. Suppose hypothetically, if you suppose there's a change of regime and the present government is voted out of power. Would you not acknowledge that corruption was one of the factors? I'm asking you a hypothetical question. I accept your point that there are levels of corruption, degrees of corruption. Somebody is a 40% corruption regime, somebody is a 30%, somebody is a 25%. But don't ordinary voters choose between the lesser evil? No, I don't think that is the criteria at all in Karnataka. Otherwise BJP would not have got as many seats they got in the last election. Of course they didn't get the majority, no party had the majority and they got by defection, they came to power. But they did get large number of votes. If corruption was one of the grounds and they should not, I got even 5% of votes. It is not so. According to me, corruption is no issue at all in this thing. And promises are the most important thing according to me, which attracts people to vote. And that's why such promises are being made by all political parties. Sir, your father was one of the founders of the Bhakti Jinta party. This was sometime after the, of course, I'm talking about 1976, when as a Supreme Court judge, he was superseded by Indira Gandhi's regime. 73. 73, I stand corrected, sir. What I'm saying is that at different points of time, you have, you know, you adhered to the advice of Mr. Alki and Rani. This is again regarding when the government reinstated a person who had been suspended. You know, your report on the illegal iron ore scandal, people still talk about it. We will talk about the involvement of the Adani group, of the JSW group. We saw how the resources that belong to the people of this country, they were looted. We've also seen how the judiciary has been corrupted. That Gali Janathan Reddy spent three years in jail, he's out. But the BJP has now, he's no longer a part of the BJP. In infamous Berlari brothers, there were court restrictions on them. So I'm saying that should you take an excessively cynical view that everybody accepts corruption, is degrees of corruption. And these don't matter when people vote. Only religious considerations matter, only caste considerations matter. And I'm repeatedly trying to suggest that you may not be entirely, you may be excessively cynical in your views. Could be, could be because of the fact that I've seen corruption and the consequences of corruption from very close quarters as working as Lokaikta. Now take for example this election now. Hundreds and hundreds of crores of rupees have been seized by the investigating agency being carried for the purpose of electionary. What does it mean? Where was that money going? And it's from different political parties, it's not confined to any one political party. And if people are not willing to accept money and vote, do you think that much of money has been used in the electionary? I mean these are the basis on which I have become a cynic. These are the basis and look who are the people who are contesting. You see the assets declared by the people who are contesting from all different political parties including the independent candidates. Hundreds and hundreds of crores of rupees, some of them thousands of crores of rupees. Where did they get the money? Did they pay their income tax? I know I've been to your house in Bangalore, I've been to where you stay, you stay in a flat. You surely don't own the hundreds or thousands of crores but you've seen the corruption in the judiciary as well. You've seen what happened to the institution called the Lokaikta. You saw the accusations against some of the judges who replaced you. Be that as it may, you were part, you were an integral part of the India Against Corruption movement. That was led by people like Anna Hazare. Then you were not happy when the Ahmadiyya Party was fought. You felt that the India Against Corruption movement was confined to the urban middle classes. It didn't go to the rural areas. Over this period of time, we've seen nine years of the Narendra Modi government. Corruption as an issue, not just in Karnataka in the country. What do you have to say? The BJP came to power. It went to town that the communist government had been corrupt. There was the 2G spectrum scam. There was the Commonwealth Games scam. There was the Colgate scam. The BJP came to power on the issue that they were going to provide a cleaner government, a less corrupt government. Prime Minister Narendra Modi even had this pre-election slogan. Neither will I accept right nor will I allow anybody else to accept right. Where have you come in the last decade or so? That's why I say that corruption has been sidelined or kept apart. It's not an issue in the election. It is an issue in the election. But unfortunately, a larger section of the society is not bothered about it. They accept it as a matter of impossibility or corruption in the administration. Yes, this government has not done anything to reduce the corruption which was there in the previous government. At least in Karnataka, there is an allegation that the government of Karnataka is receiving 40% and I am told opposition said during our time it was only 10% corruption. What is this explanation? The corruption is there in every woke up life. I may be a cynic but the fact is that I have seen corruption and the consequences of corruption from very close quarters. That's why I have been following this election, not with the view of political who wins and who loses. For me, Nota is the only voting. Let me here again intervene. Just because somebody presses none of the above button, still somebody will be elected? No, but it will send a message to the electoral political parties. People are not believing you anymore. When Nota gets the highest number of votes, they will realize, I am hoping that they will realize that they have to change. Today politics is the only for making money, not for service. So once again, with all due humility and I have a great respect for the amazing work that you've done. You've tried in your way to fight against corrupt practices. Today you were born on the 16th of June 1940, you are almost 82 today. But I am saying you are completed 82 sir. So I am saying that you are going to be 83, I stand corrected. What I am saying is that you are not just being cynical, aren't you being excessively idealistic? Can we hope to live in a world completely free of corruption where every person in politics is a sadhu or a son? I mean, we can't be, don't we have to look at lessening corruption? And what is the role that individuals like you, individual civil society has to play in this? I have tried to analyze corruption and the cause of corruption very much. But I couldn't find a real good ground for that. According to me, people who are indulging in corruption, they're not afraid of law. And the judicial system in India supports that thing by the laws delays. People don't get convicted up till about 35, 40 years and all because of the hierarchy of courts that we have. There is no medicine for controlling greed, no known medicine for controlling greed and all. In that background, according to me, unless the social thinking is changed, there is no way you can fight corruption. When I was young, if a person was sent to jail in my village, my parents used to tell me, don't go near that house. There was a social boycott of people who were committed crime. Today, people go to jail, they're not equated, they take a bail and come out. Hundreds and thousands of people go to the airport to receive such person and bring him in a procession, shout slogans in his favor. It could be criminal cases of murder, it could be rape, it could be corruption cases and all. But today, just to say, how many political leaders of different parties are on bail? Just time to find out. According to the Association for Democratic Reforms, if you look at parliament and you look at most state legislative assemblies, close to half or almost half of the elected representatives have serious charges. Why is this happening? Because society does not think that being corrupt is being wrong. You've got to change the attitude. That is why you may think, I'm only saying a hypothetical in this, but I've been to more than 1,600 educational institutions to interact with the youth of this country and tell them to inculcate just two values. One is contentment in life, the other is humanism. If you have contentment, contentment controls greed. If they have no greed, then you'll be satisfied with what you legitimately earned. We were told when we were young to be happy with what you have legitimately. So we have developed an attitude of satisfaction with I for one and with my pension. What little arbitration I did, I've stopped that also with the thing and all. I'm quite happy. And as a matter of fact, you should know that one of the chief minister who's leading one of the political parties here, I indicated in my mining report, he invited me to become the Lokayakta. He said that my nightlife should be audited. So I told him I got only one wife and only one house, I said. So on that personal note and on that somewhat idealistic note, I want to thank you so much for giving your time to the viewers of NewsClick. And I sincerely hope that in your lifetime and in my lifetime, your children, my children will live in a less corrupt country, in a less corrupt state like Karnataka, but time alone can tell what will happen or not. Right now we have provided, we teach our children to be content with what they legitimately have. When I say contentment doesn't mean you get a job, you become a Sanyasi. No, you must have an ambition to become somebody big, somebody rich also, but legitimately, not by stealing from somebody. Okay. For the time being, we'll wait and watch what happens on the 10th of May when the electorate of Karnataka vote. I mean, there are 224 with Ansaba Constituency to 224 with the Hi-Ex will have to be elected and we know on the 13th of May whether or not in the elections that will take place whether corruption, anti-incomecy and anti-incomecy would be significant issues or not. We'll do our post-mortem after that or we'll learn whether, as Justice Santoshak Day is saying, corruption is not an issue or would be an issue and other issues, whether it be religion, whether it be caste, would matter. Time alone will tell. Thank you once again, Justice Santoshak Day. Thank you for your time. And keep watching NewsClick. Click on that button. Subscribe to this channel. We give you the kind of news, we give you the kind of views, we give you the kind of interviews that you don't get from many so-called mainstream media outlets. Thank you for being with us.