 To welcome to the annual DEF CON convention, this meeting was held at Exciting Las Vegas, Nevada, from July 9th, 2011, 1999. This is videotaped at number 46, H.E.R.F Guns, E.M.P. Bombs, and weapons of mass destruction. Guns, E.M.P. Bombs, and iPhone stuff, please do not try this at home. You tend to vaporize, and I would hate to see the headline, How could you mention vaporize as small children? When? GONADZORUS. I'm sorry? GONADZ. We'll get into the GONAD. I'll talk about your GONADZ. The only thing I need to ask is because this is a very, very serious subject, and it is an unclassified briefing, I need all feds to leave. NSA guys who leak stuff to me, you can stay. H.E.R.F Guns, you've heard about them. I first got involved accidentally by them by a testifying before Congress 10 years ago, and I was talking about the H.E.R.F guns and the effects that they can have in destabilizing denial of service and all that stuff. And it was oddly enough to, in front of who is now Secretary of Agriculture, and was then Congressman Dan Bickman, and we talked about that a little bit, and he said, Mr. Schwert, all these H.E.R.F. guns, you think we should add them to the Brady Bill? They were talking about banning the entire microwave and communications industry out of existence by putting them on there, and that's why I guess he's over in agriculture right now. What is going to be, we're going to talk a little bit about the technology behind these things. People, I get a ton of email, how I build a H.E.R.F. gun? Where do I buy a H.E.R.F. gun? We sell me a H.E.R.F. gun. And yet nobody's really considered out there that H.E.R.F. guns are not all made alike. There's lots of different ways to achieve the effects of denial of service through magnetic means, and we're going to kind of cover this a little bit technically. How many people here have an E.E. background? All right, so we can get into it a little bit. If you have some questions, just shout them out, and we'll work our way through this, and maybe we can get back on to time a little bit. Some real simple basics just for those of you who don't have some of this E.E. background. Voltage, amperage, and power. Real simple concepts. That's what makes all this crack work that we're using all the time. The difference of potential equals voltage. I have a lot of voltage that creates current. Currents those electrons or the holes growing up and down the wires. That's the stuff that hurts when you touch it. The voltage doesn't hurt so much. The current is what hurts, and the amount of current is determined by the amount of resistance through very simple formulas that we all learn in electronics 101. You don't need to memorize these, but they're kind of nice to have at your disposal later on when you're talking about these subjects. The other thing that people tend to forget when we're talking about this area is a megawatt, a terawatt, a gigawatt. How much power am I going to jam down the throat of that NIP card? How am I going to really destroy things? People say you cannot get a gigawatt out of a small device. The problem is people don't think about time, and it's all about division of time, and the difference between continuous power and peak power, pulse power, spiked power. If I have a one-watt source of power, just one watt, which is one one hundredth of one of these light bulbs, and I release all of the energy in that one watt circuit, in one microsecond, how much power have I released? One megawatt in one microsecond. It's very simple concepts, and time becomes very, very important when we're looking at hearth and EMP and the kinds of effects that we're trying to generate. The taxonomy for hearth, if those who are interested in the article on this in popular science, I believe it's in the other station coming up, there's numbers of different types of ways to generate this that we're doing military here in the United States that we are done for fun by hobbyists and are also being done by the Russians, and I'll show you some of the Russian technology you can buy on the Internet now that is now made available here in the United States. Systems are separately directed. What are we trying to do as a bad dietitator to hope for what's he going to do and how do these systems get affected? And there's two fundamental ways that they get affected. One is through the back door. The back door means through the power lines, through direct apertures, the holes in the computers or electronic systems, whatever it is happened to be. We deal with concepts of resonance as well. Tuning the attack mechanism to the same frequency of the system that's under attack. It heightens the effect and the susceptibility of the equipment that is under attack. This is exactly what the military does with some of the weapons that I'll be showing you in a couple of minutes. Getting the power inside of these things is pretty trivial. And the reason it's trivial is it's not heavily shielded. Anybody ever had the old Vic 20s and trash 80s about 25 years ago? What's your TV set look like? Your TV set look like hell. Because it was way mooting out the crack from the air before the FCC got involved and it made the TV a little bit of a mess. Now I got hurt for the first time, I'm guessing it was about 72 or 73, and I had a pregnant roller skate on the highway which was a Volkswagen. We were driving along. It's only like a Ford, come on, as I was talking. And we had a nine foot whip antenna on the back and inside of it was my 30 dollar rodeo shock CD so I could speed down the highway and my Volkswagen obviously. The truckers did not like this. They were not happy about it because we were interfering on their channel 1-9 breaker, all that stuff. So what they did is they would get 500 watt linear amplifiers, put them on their CDs and squelch when they drove by a little four wheeler. What happened to my 30 dollar rear shock CD? Bluff, yes, that's a technical term. Bluff. And they would absolutely smoke by just overloading the circuits. And that was in distinction to the back door attack. That is a front door attack. The front door meaning when you're using peripheral EMP against the system that has a front coupling system, an antenna of some sort where there is normally signal to be put in or to be received. Same kind of thing with satellites, I'll show you some of that. The satellites that have transponders, how do you shut them down? Do a front door attack using this technology. Now ESD is one that is often overlooked. Electrostatic discharge is a very, very simple form of electromagnetic electrostatic demyelous service. Same thing with the fingers on the dry carpet, especially out here in Vegas, it touches the doorknob and ouch. You're getting about a half a million volts through your fingertip but at very, very, very low power. But it still hurts because it's burning off the surface of the skin. At the other end of the spectrum we have lightning. Lightning is doing hundreds of thousands of amperes at thousands and thousands of volts, which is a tremendous amount of power. I happen to live in the lightning capital of the world, Tampa Bay. And we have to have very special equipment on our house just to keep our networks up and running because we're down on the average of 10 times a month for most of the community. So we've seen these types of things normally around where we all live and just normal experiences. But this is a technique that can be used offensively and I'll show you how some of this works as well. The one that we all think about initially is the nuclear EMP. The stuff they discovered back in the 40s when the appointment to ship out in the Pacific blasted north to Newkes and suddenly the communications and power went. And the scientists say, oh, we forgot to tell you about that. A little side effect that goes on here. The military has looked at those very, very seriously, not in the nuclear realm as much, but in the non-nuclear realm. The idea is how big a pulse can report off or can they put off against an enemy? Out of between 500 and 1500 meters above mine. Now running around with a whole bunch of news is not good public relations for the United States. So they look at the non-nuclear way of generating these things. Now the spectrum, the frequency spectrum of what occurs in these types of pulses is intriguing as well because it's a fairly narrow band. It's between roughly 100 kilohertz and 100 megahertz and it's a very, very nosy, nosy signal that the effect is not some particular target. One specific system or vulnerable target is to take it all down at once. These are the spikes. This is what these types of attacks will look like over the time domain. And if you notice the blue line, that's some of the new technology that's been developed for the non-nuclear EMP pulses. They're called flux compression generators. I'll show you how some of those work in a minute. But notice the time scale. That it's a very slow ramp up, peak power and then it drops off almost instantaneously. The other line is something we're going to talk about a little bit later is the transient. That's the nuclear line. Which one is that? Let's see. What does that say? Lightning strikes. The lightning has an instantaneous peak power and then it drops off fairly slowly. And it's actually when the lightning strike goes off you see there's multiple subsequent effects as the equivalent of the earthquake aftershocks that occur. The nuclear pulse is the one on the left. That is absolutely virtually instantaneous. We're down into the peak of second ranges here with huge amounts of power compressed again from a time standpoint which makes the EMP from both the nuclear to the nuclear much more efficient than the way it's being done in the non-nuclear form. Distance. Something else that becomes really, really critical when we're dealing with this. The concept of, can you hear somebody from 10 miles, 20 miles, 50 miles becomes a mathematical problem and it's an engineering solution that comes out of it. Cars. Can you do this to a car? So cars susceptibilities to these types of effects in what is called an E-field, the voltage field. How much voltage can you put across a car before it shuts down the electronic ignition systems? The answer is roughly with the shielding that Detroit currently uses, about 200 volts per meter. That's about it. They do testing in electronic anachorical chambers which are free-field conditions. Then they search the cars with the generators to find out how susceptible they are and that's the current set of specifications. However, if we start looking at the charts here and look at the attenuation factor that if down at the bottom here I'm dealing with volts per meter in my E-field and if I am able to generate 1 million volts per meter at the antenna source we look at the attenuation factor and how much is degraded over distance and at a thousand meters, a kilometer away, I've still got a thousand volts per meter which is going to have a significant effect across most automobiles. I'll show you some of the technology that's being developed on how to do that. So the attenuation factor is quite critical when people are saying how much power they're generating and if we're dealing with power there's one attenuation factor and we're dealing with voltage here and there's a whole series of these that exist to be able to figure out how powerful the weapon systems that are being developed really are. This is what the military wanted. After the Gulf War the southern command Jason Tampa, Florida, said this was a short scoff, we really, really wish we had an amping weapon that we could have just dropped over all of Iraq shut down all communications and power and with one explosive device and take it all down and that is what has been developed over the last several years by various folks within the government. We're being done with a code of FCG, a flux compression generator and it's fairly simple concept is that up there on the left there's a small amount of explosive charge conventional explosive plus something like that and inside of that tube you've got those other forms of explosive that come along and you have a magnetic insulating tube of copper the explosion that is created is somewhat like a nuclear in an atom bomb is the first explosion which then compresses all of the energy the magnetic energy that is being driven into there down the line to come out in a coherent form and in these types of weapons typically we're in higher frequencies and these tend to be more in the high power microwave ranges of what with what the military is being done and it comes into forms what is very, very tuned and the reason we want the tuned high power microwave versions is the specifically target certain systems that are operating at certain frequencies if you're operating for a front gear you're going to want to have a most efficient attack by using similar frequencies so the narrow band HPM is the technique that they use for this and these do work for a fair amount of distance and the reason is when we're operating in frequencies between 1 gig and 100 gig we keep our energy fairly well concentrated in the beam the dispersion pattern at higher frequencies is not as wide as it is at lower frequencies so the energy remains more concentrated over distance in the ultra wide band version this says I don't know exactly what they got but I know I want to take it down so I'm going to use a wider spectrum of frequencies in the explosive means different types of antennas different types of vocators at this at the output of the bombs in order to have a wider frequency effect and then in three take down more systems this is MK-84-4 now which can be used either in a missile or as a drop down of an air plane and in this particular one you see the radiating pattern that comes out of it from the flux compulsion generator and it's fairly simple there's a power supply, a battery, the ballast which is part of the FCG flux compulsion generator and then there's a collaxial load which is just saying I have to have a load mode to be able to do an output in here and again it's a simple engineer this is fairly according to what the US military is doing another form is going on, it's called EMI EMI is the stuff that we may even say a 2020 with kind of chung about two years ago with a guy in the wheelchair and he's running over a cliff because somebody needs to self farm near his wheelchair EMI is the electromagnetic sewer around us all the thing that happens that's pretty interesting is that EMI is normally just a pain in the butt to various types of engineering folks keeps the noise out we want to keep the electromagnetic interference out the cell phones near the heart monitors don't long go anywhere because they can shut them down these are accidental pieces that are similar to the electrostatic discharge except these are in the electromagnetic spectrum and operate at unknown frequencies and they're basically leakage the reason we can't use the laptops on airplanes because they've had avionics interference from EMI but look it's more interesting when we have NIRF NIRF is low energy radio frequency and the people that pioneered the use of this offensively were the Russians and they used to film out of this during the Cold War and over in Moscow for a period of time there were a whole mass of fire alarms that went off in the US embassy anybody thinking of NIRF, what they were doing according to KGB now come out of the closet on this is that they were sending energy into the US embassy on a regular basis unpredictable levels but low level radiation twin to a certain types of equipment that were inside the embassy causing the alarms to go off meaning the Russian fire department had to come they had to be admitted to the embassy but where they were the firemen so this was one of the techniques that the Russians wins there was some bomb bomb in the US embassy with microwaves with the diodes in order to be able to confuse our intelligence services using the same types of techniques this is very, very wide band simulating the effects of EMI the whole point is when the victim does not know whether it's an attack or just woman's normal things that goes on and this is kind of weird many of us are right now in this field at the more level things the most military capabilities we have the anti-satellite versions the power supplies for the ground-based versions of these are three tractor trailers loads of capacitors and they put out between 10 and 100 gigawatts currently using a 10 meter dish and they send pulse power up to the satellites for anti-sat things one of the reasons it's being done is that a technical does not violate putting weapons in space from an anti-satellite standpoint so they do it from the ground the Euro program is started by the army in 1990 high-energy real-year ordinance and the objective of the exercise is to build little tiny pallet or projectile types of EMP pulse devices lob them in non-explosively to the adversaries arsenals who has also electronic devices to make these bombs all dead very simple concept we have the backpack versions the army started developing these back in the mid-80s and moved them over time with the backpack power supply versions and actually hand-held gun versions I've been unable to get any pictures of those but I did a picture of one of the Russian ones that I showed currently the open source published information that the government provides says they're spending about 500 million dollars a year developing this type of technology how much is involved in the black cadets and all of that I have no idea at this point but we can certainly suggest we can ask some other NSA friends a little bit later where things start getting a little bit of a disconnect is the concept of asymmetric warfare an asymmetric warfare means that your adversary is going to operate by an entirely different set of rules than you can wind operate by same kind of thing going on over in Vietnam similar thing we're seeing in Kosovo when the other guys do things that are so totally outlandish and different how do you counter it and that's kind of what the feds have been saying about how this for a whole long time how do we deal with this in this world of health the fear has been what do we do about tomorrow what do we do about the really, really bad guys who might have some capability outside of the normal world most of the stuff I've shown you the military stuff they're not going to build them out on their own they can build a little electrostatic device they can build some small things but a new technology came out about four years ago by a man named Dave Shriner Dave Shriner lives in Southern California he's an engineer, used to work for the DOD and now he's retired but without an interest in how to destroy banks for some unknown reason so we are inveterate device called the TUD the transient electrostatic discharge device and we want to find out how much money how much energy how much know-how would it take for a terrorist group to develop a technology that would be roughly equivalent to what the US military is spending $500 million a year on right now so he started playing with these things and I'm going to show you some of the pictures of what he did and ultimately what he did cost $500 $500 the waveguide device and all the micro wave types of things you've got to have a waveguide and actually keeps it all tuned properly and he built this in his garage out in California this is the S20 the S20 and the power supply there is about three feet high two and a half feet high heavy and all get out it's got an oil filled canister in it there's certain types of electronics that I'm not allowed to talk about because they may be classifying this the output in ten of its cedars may have plexiglass hand round coils and two aluminum plates separated by styrofoam he built this in two weeks for $500 it puts out one megavolt meter at the source one megavolt per meter if you go back to that attenuation chart that means in a kilometer in a free field condition he was left with a thousand volts per meter at a kilometer out did anybody see the car the 2020 special a couple of weeks ago actually the transcripts were on abc.com but they removed them and I don't know why they did did a demonstration and he shut down some cars showed various effects from this device it was a cool vector dish that they did and it was fairly effective proof so whereas he's going now he's testified before congress on this creating the point that it requires a reasonable amount of engineering know-how engineering student and university would have the basics he runs a machine shop so he has to have that skill level and understanding some electronics one on one that was really all that was required to build this device he's now working on the s30 device he's targeting two to ten million volts per meter at the source with a projected cost of under $5,000 this puts it into the realm of serious really when we're talking about potential strikes against the infrastructure this device is a new kind horn I don't understand enough about antenna design but from what I'm told this device actually can double and triple the power output of these types of 2ED devices because of the various geometries that are built into it and the result of waveforms I spoke to two people actually I was in Vegas in March about this and apparently this type of antenna design is going to end up being classified and people are getting picked up for it so it's another thing I don't quite understand the Russians have been at this for a long time and they have actually been in many ways open source about it there was an report about two years ago about suitcase size EMP bombs running around and they're being sure they're called lady-end devices and they put significant small pulses they're two nanosecond pulses and they put about 5 megawatts of power and if you're talking a portable device you don't need to be a kilometer away from something leaving a device like this inside of a teenage video that wouldn't be enough to make gangbos to shut the whole damn thing down a casino would be another good smoker should I introduce you to somebody the Nagia is another system that they were doing it was based upon radar principles and a lot of what we've seen is that used radar equipment that anybody can actually pick up on or a surplus or no for a military turns into a fairly effective EMP or HPM weapons so it incurs the fundamental technologies there the trick is how do you take a continuous sweeping reasonably low power 50 to 100 watt output and turn it into the big power no trick with this whole thing is how do you switch huge amounts of power really really really quickly and the Russians have done some pretty amazing stuff with this and some new technologies that are not coming out and one is called BASS and it's a special silicon construct and wafers that allows super super fast high current switching this is the Russian plasma gun this shoots out streams of negative ions and high power this device was somehow acquired by somebody within the United States military who somehow got me a picture of this and at the left hand we insert the power and the power supply is independent of this device and the output tube is on the right and from what I've understood and been told at this point it shoots out lots of power yes sir the power supply requirement on this device I do not know and they've got through channels and it's I don't know many details on it I just feel fortunate to even get the picture the stuff that you want to buy on the internet this is some of the stuff you can actually go out there and buy this device over here the watch shows you the size of the device here and it's putting out 10 to 12 volts at 500 ampers it's an immense amount of power and it's doing a 1 to 10 nanosecond wise time which is that very very fast front line and it's going to send out multiple pulses the reason to do multiple pulses is to really screw up the system single pulses don't always work there's a degree of underlying building single pulse against any system so if you're doing 10 kilohertz pulses suddenly you're going to have very very high increased effects against your target systems this is the Russian car stopping device and again this is putting like 2.5 kilo volts power under 50 voltage under 50 ohms this device has been faster 7 million picoseconds which is less than a nanosecond putting an immense amount of power ostensibly it's designed as a command but it's also been very very successful but if you want to buy them on the internet I will give you the URL at the end of the presentation I'll give you another problem how big of a visa card do we have I think it's the only question these things are not cheap how do we solve the problem how do we solve this well, classically it says it's built this huge Thursday shield around everything and let's isolate ourselves no windows, isolate the air condition no metal ducts, completely decoupled power supplies, isolated there so we have very minimal transference of power strong amounts of filtering this is really rough to rewire America it's tough we're not going to rebuild the infrastructure of this country using this technology because all the architects are getting mad with no windows we can't have windows with this another approach is hardening the power supplies of whether it's the computers or any other system converting to optical cabling is another way that is very very efficient because the sudden you don't have the magnetic conduction means so the communications, the optics not only offers the speed but it gives us some hardening capability against these types of attacks there's an awful lot of work that will have to be done just even down at the PC level to make any of these systems protected and hardened against the kinds of devices that I've been showing you or the kinds of devices that you can play with at home and I'll show you some of the things that you can actually do for yourself where it's going is how do we detect these super super super fast power things before they cause any damage back to a detection and reaction system kind of like an IDS system for health and EMP the Swedes have been working on this for quite a while and the interesting thing is that the private sector in Sweden known to trust about as much as the government sector they're working together on the problem whereas here in the US the vast amount of the areas involved in health and EMP are super classified so we don't have a huge disconnect between the private sector and the military during the research in Sweden so the Swedes have come up with a very very fast we're down in the very low picosecond ranges here of detection of certain thresholds of electromagnetic events that may be going on so once you've detected this event, whatever it happens to be or whatever power then the subsequent question is what do you do at private the things that they're looking at right now and this is a close up, I apologize for the quality of the picture here is called a high speed plasma limiter and a high speed plasma limiter is a little chip that they're developing right now that inside of it has a plasma field once the detector the high speed detector finds out that there's EMP coming in at it the plasma limiter is very close to instantaneous to the ground now this is excellent at the front end of transducing systems or communication systems does not solve the back end problem at all but it does solve it for the communications industry that if we're able to fix that end of it at least in an event that the bad guys come along we can solve some of the problem here the type of thing that's going on in this field requires free field type things so they're doing it out of China Lake and actually you want to rent this facility right now as where Dave Shrinan has been doing his work and they've been testing one things like helicopters and that helicopter the leader of that is sitting on a styrofoam too I tell you there's a piece of styrofoam and they're subjecting to huge amounts of the energy coming out of the S20 and other military weapon systems that are being developed and up there on the place is the detection systems that billions into monitoring the effects of what's going on the first unclassified hearings began in 1998 on this and we had the Russians come in and some expert Americans came in to talk about it again I'll give you the URL's for all of this it'll be up here on the board it's all out there on the internet on the US government sites the health concerns if you guys are going to play with this get some proper alright this stuff can work we've talked about, we've talked about the cell phones and the brain cancer with truth is we know we don't know we know that HBM will fly your insides we know that it'll be like the people in the microwave place to run to its radar systems too many sailors have died that way by getting in front of the place to run while it's hot so if you're going to be playing with this stuff be aware it can be lethal if you really don't know what again that's why some fundamental engineering knowledge is really good keep the power down, keep the voltage up and keep your gong adds away from it it's not good for you if you want to play Tesla it's a good place to start if you want to just look for the effects and all of that Tesla stuff was great huge amounts of voltage low amounts of current, no damage skin surface, high voltage will travel across the surface of the skin in your body and not penetrate it so that will create the penetrating factor and stop your heart which is not good Hackley built a device several years ago over in Amsterdam and this is made out of the Jacobs ladder which is a voltage multiplying system which is that big up on top classic power supply plugs into the wall and they were trying to make some very very attractive Christmas lights for the windows that took down computers for 100 yards around so this device they built just from scrap parts lying around and all that's involved here is a power supply create a capacity of the bank march generators you can buy those surplus for $20 and the output on this instead of having a 10x10 or anything fancy there was a screwdriver and a mail and you charge it up, click it and you get your spark and discharge and that's a simple way you can play with this kind of stuff if you really want to get creative you can do a thing called the coffin and the coffin is a big box about the shape of the coffin and you get a deaf con you get a whole mess of beer bottles that are empty you fill them half with sand half with singulata and what do we have we have natures capacitors bank them all together and you can create the effects again this is just for educational purposes only the asset of discharge is the key for an awful lot of us if you want to stay out of trouble and not get hurt playing the electrostatic discharge in the transit electrostatic discharge arena a variable microwave arena at all costs unless you really, really want to take some chances with this if you want to play you can grab and buy some kits real simple kits what's the URL on this one FutureBalicens.net and they sell the kits on they use tests and stuff in order to generate huge amounts of voltage and then go put your computer in there and see what happens have some fun if you're looking for some more research on this stuff here's a hot mess of news I'll leave this up for a few minutes it's a lot of the testimony that occurred in 5th Congress it was a recent testimony two weeks ago by George Washington University sponsored by a couple of congressmen trying to understand the effects of buying some of the Russian devices it's www.noose-bill.com I thank you very much and I'll be happy to answer any questions for you yes sir I'm sorry there's an antenna in the front end of it in the nose there's an antenna no it doesn't that's the bomb itself the bomb itself even drops out of the airplane or goes into a glide problem I didn't knew you how's the plane get away from it I assume the military has got that one figured out on their own I never thought about that question I'm sorry yes sir in the back alright next I've never seen a published study on that yet diodes the front end diodes in most of the TTL circuits in most of the CMOS circuits you can clear those with about 10 volts of directed energy right on them from an e-field standpoint the way that we've looked at it is more from the electrostatic discharge standpoint which is you're looking at half a million volts of electrostatics from a microwave standpoint HVM standpoint you're looking at somewhere down to a million ranges because the susceptibility of the ICs is not there Intel and the Department of Energy just went into a deal though to learn to start developing hardened ICs for communication satellites and stuff down here on the ground yes sir temperature will give you some protection against broadband wide frequency types of impingements when you're talking narrow band attacks through apertures and what so ever there's an attenuation factor absolutely at certain frequencies there's also tempests last that will have an effect including ferridae rims as well but it's not you're talking an attenuation factor against very specific frequencies that are common with the tempest domain yes sir no not yes sir no no the gentleman who's the empty weapon in Kosovo he also used a couple of them over in the Gulf War as a beta test yes yes they don't need to use them in both conflicts the best of my knowledge yes sir I'm sorry in some cases depending upon the frequencies they are very very efficient a lot of the stuff the testing that I've seen done is just using conventional low periodic antennas and you can tune those fairly well if you're trying to do a special for the NBHPN versions yes sir all of his long first time can we use this technology to stop cars there's been a lot of discussion over that someone was looking at it said a California was looking at it was not aware about the border the problem that you have is that the cars can go totally out of control and it becomes a collateral damage you're shutting the car down far folks around to the best of my knowledge they're not getting ready yet to deploy that yes sir you know is less the most advanced less young as in say Russia has done a tremendous amount for a longer time the next generation generator is down in Los Alamos in San Diego in the 1950s Russia not only in a lot of areas is really quite mind boggling because they tend to look at things somewhat differently the past technology for the super high speed car switching is what is able to size we have not been able to match their technology independently but now they're getting it we're learning how to do it yes sir the formula is for across the shield you're in the engineering you need to look at it