 The Niger State government raises alarm that Boko Haram has taken over some communities in its jurisdiction. And having in mind the various attacks that have taken place in the last few days, should a state of emergency be declared in Nigeria. This is PLOS Politics and I am Osao Yee, a Bon. Welcome once again to PLOS Politics. The Niger State government has raised alarms that Boko Haram has hoisted its flags in Kaure and Shiro-Roloko government areas of the state. Governor Bubaka Sani Bilu, while confirming this, also said over 3,000 residents of the affected communities have been displaced by the terrorist. Mr. Bilu further said that he had earlier alerted the federal government but the government has not been proactive. Joining us to discuss this is Ambassador Roy Ohideviye, a military veteran and also Al-Zubay Abu Bakr, a legal practitioner. Thank you both for joining us on PLOS Politics. Thank you, it's a pleasure. Alright I'm going to start with Ambassador Roy. Of course you have a lot of experience in the military space. What's the significance of hoisting a flag? If you remember 2014-2015 there was conversations of Boko Haram being in control of numerous local government areas in northeast Nigeria and then late in 2016 the Chief of Army staff back then Burotai had presented a flag to President Muhammad Abwari signifying that they probably had defeated Boko Haram. So let's start with tell us the significance of hoisting a flag in Shiro-Roloko. What does that mean? Well you know globally a flag is a sign of supremacy, a symbol of supremacy. So every country has these types of flags and is designated to conduct certain specific values that the country stands for. So when you see people hoisting flags or putting on like a barracks it shows that you are taking over supremacy of a certain space that is designated to that authority. Okay and I'll let you go on before we bring in Mr. Abu Bakr. So how worrisome can we describe this if we say that an insurgent group has hoisted its flag in a place as significant as Shiro-Roloko in the United States? Well in the first place let's even forget about Shiro-Roloko because people don't recognize our national artifacts especially you can look at the deserts, the forests, all the museums in Nigeria are abandoned. Now Shiro-Roloko is supposed to be like a tourist center, a place of value for the country. So let me even look at the presence of former President Babangida in that state. Do you know that before the hillside building was built for the president? Do you know how much of surveillance, rakey, reconnaissance that was taking place to secure the whole of the Niger state because that was where he was coming to? And recall that those days there was so much coup d'etat and countercoup. So definitely they must have standard area, they must have a blueprint to be able to lock it down in case of any kind of incursion. So what happens? This is because the man is now old. Where are the people of the states? That state is predominantly exposed so that's why it should be protected. All right now let's bring in Al-Zubay, Bubaka, a legal practitioner and I'm sure you also have a lot of experience with some of this. Quickly also share with us why this should be a national headache for Nigeria, seeing that an insurgent group that we claim to have technically defeated, we of course somehow even celebrated when their flag was presented to President Mohammad Abwari late 2016 has somehow gotten that level of audacity to hoist the flag in Niger state. First of all I agree with the statement made by my colleague. The point is the entire system of the federal government in Nigeria, especially the pretense shown by the ATC in 2016 when they came to power, you know they wrote to power on the basis of pretense, on the basis of the fact that they are going to bring change, on the basis that the President Good Luck Jonathan Drummond was a failure, on the pretense that when they come they will change everything politically in Nigeria but all those things are pretense. They are lies and time has shown that all the things they promised are not true. Even the drama wherein the flag of the Boko Haram was handed over to President Mohammad Abwari was just a pretense. That is why you see the resurgence of the bandits, of the kidnappers, of the headers of the Boko Haram all over the place and it appears that it is getting worse every day. Right from Bournemouth to Ruyobi, Adamawa, Kaduna, Kasuna, Niger, Nassarawa and now Benway, all these steps in 2015 have witnessed only explanation of violence in one name or the other and the federal government is not even serious about tackling most of these issues. Take the issues in the south. The south was calm, the south was peaceful but today agitations by ethnic groups, by people who finished their change, by the 40th posture of this government, there are now agitations that are even becoming violent. But take the north for example, let me cite just two examples for you. In the Kasuna axis, when you take off from Marabangkankara through to Kankara town, to Dammusa, to Dusimah, to Bahsari, to Safana, all these places are not safe. I can assure you that over 100 villages have been sacked and they are not living there. In Kaduna state, right from Tsukun through Kaduna south, through Kaduna north, Igari local government, Benningwari and now Zahria, all these places are unsafe and the escalation of violence is going on and it's increasing and government just stands at Jimbo and it's not doing anything about it. So you see that was a pretend. That Boko Haram flag given to President Muhammad Bahari was just a pretend to show that the change has come. But change is in backward reverse because we move backwards twice and move forward only a half. And that is why Nigeria is unsafe today. If you read the newspapers today, you will imagine or think that Nigeria is at war itself. In Nigeria state, the governor has declared that 50 villages are under today the control of the Boko Haram. So what kind of system are we running? What kind of country are we ruling? What kind of legacy does the president and all these governments, especially modern governments, want to leave to the people? It is a complete mess and people are dying every day. The whole thing is that most of these terrorists even communicate with the government. They tell them what to do, but the government cannot do anything. I believe are free chances, they are not in it, they are just deceiving the people. All right. Hold on, Mr. Abu Bakar. I'm Roy Okidev here. I'm going back to you now. From a military perspective, where do you think that we got it wrong? Do you agree that giving a flag to President Mamadabari in late 2016 was all just pretense? If we supposedly had gotten victory back then, at what point did we take our foot off the pedal and let it get to this point that we're currently dealing with? Nowhere. Okay. So let me come from the area of negotiating with terrorists, negotiating with bandits. Let me come from the area of the de-radicalization process. Do you remember when we were doing de-radicalization, we put a lot of them in affluence, give them chicken and everything, and the soldiers that were dying, we had seen this, and we were hearing stories that they want to be recycled into our military. You remember? Yes. We now started to see bandits because so many of the repentant Boko Haram had and broken out because when they had their internal crisis, some generals broke out and took their men and started Banditry. They recalled, it's just a cycle, it's a visual cycle, recall when Gumi came and they started to negotiate with them, did you hear anything about Boko Haram? No. The Boko Haram kept quiet because they were giving money to the bandits negotiating for ransom, for punishment of people that were kidnapped. So now that you see that every other thing, the services have changed hands and the military is trying to strategize to dissuade the settlement scheme. Now the Boko Haram is coming up, it's just one and the same thing. So I want to look at it from that perspective. Remember in Niger states, a lot of bandits gave back their weapons to the governor. You remember? Now the same bandits, there was a fracker between the ones that have not repented and the ones that were said to have repented. They came into a village that they were looking for one of those that repented. And you can imagine that a dark city claiming states, brandishing weapons in a sovereign country like Nigeria, in a state where a former president resides, it's disarming. Mr. Bubakar, please kindly confirm for us what state you are from. Hello? Yes, go ahead. I want us to confirm what state you are from. The present condition. No, your state. What state are you from? Okay, I reside in Katuna State. Okay, but where are you from? Are you from Katuna State? Katuna State. Oh, you're from Katuna? Okay, so I want you to help us paint a picture of what residents in these areas are living like. What type of fear are they living in? Because a couple of days ago, I saw a video, a short video of a bandit or a terrorist, I'm not sure who he was, simply walking along the streets in one of the northern states with his weapon. And the person who recorded the video was basically saying, look at one of them walking past us. So it feels like there's a freedom that these people have to simply roam around those areas without the fear of being arrested or being killed by our security agents. So give us an idea of what people in Katuna, people in Niger, people in Borno State, what type of fear are they living in currently, seeing that these communities are surrounded and taken over by insurgents. Unfortunately, since 2015, on government spaces in Nigeria, especially in northern Nigeria, have become widened. For example, in Katuna State, if you are travelling to Katuna Town, between Umaraban, Kankara, you go to Kankara Town, then to Entomiti, which is in Tammuta, those people, then to Duselma, then Safana, then Batari, and Kurufi. At a point, most of the villages in this local government had fled to Katuna Town. At a point, the emir of Katuna had to visit most of these ungoverned persons to see whether he can persuade these villages to go back to their villages. But it was impossible. In Faskeri, there was a time that if you go to the filling station to take fuel, you see headmen or bandits with their guns wrapped on their shoulders. And they would be moving freely. Sometimes, if they see that you are a man of wealth, they even stop you and ask for money. If you are unable to give them, they deal with you. In Faskeri Town, they come to filling stations with their motorcycles and take fuel without fail. They will be brandishing their weapons. There's something in Tammuta. In fact, one of the tragedies in Katuna State is that one of the leading villages himself a full army. In fact, he holds the title of Searching Full Army in Dungawan Katuna. He was murdered by the bandits. In Tammuta and in Bahadurim, at a point, the village head had to relocate to Katuna. So the entire state remained on government. As last week in Kankara Local Government, you see truck of vehicles, parking people that are regarded as IDFs coming into Katuna State, specifically Zaria and Kuntua areas. It is very, very unfortunate. If you come down to Katuna State, especially Birnengwari, Birnengwari was an economically viable area, not only in Katuna State, but in Nigeria. In fact, it is the leading route to Lagos. Most of the cows transported to the south, especially from the northwest, pass through Birnengwari. Birnengwari was strategic to the economy of Nigeria. But today, Birnengwari is a ghost of itself. If you are asked to travel to Birnengwari from Katuna, you cannot do it. Because hardly does a car pass without being attacked by the bandits. Not only in Birnengwari Town, but in places like Buruku and other villages. If you come close to Katuna Town, which is Igari Local Government, in fact, the closest village to Katuna Town to Igari is Igari Koon. There was complete radial of that village at a point. Then in places like Birnengwari, you cannot even leave. The villagers have left, but the government is doing nothing about this. People are dying every day. People are fleeing their villages. In 10 years, yes. All right, because of time, I think you've painted a very, very good picture of what it really looks like in those parts of Nigeria. For people who haven't visited, who can't visit, who haven't been there in their lives, we live a totally different life here in Lagos and in other parts of the country. But it's really heartbreaking here in what they have to deal with and the fear that they live in. Ambassador Roy, do you think that we can still win this war? Well, let me first say that we are very, very emperors. When I say we, I'm talking about those that have served in Nigerian security agencies. In the years when agencies had the glory that it should have. I remember in those days when we were in the army, we didn't even need to use so much force because there was no human right violation. Once people see the soldiers coming, they behave themselves. But what is happening now is complete seats of leaders. The leaders themselves, they need to take a stand. Nigeria needs a messiah right now. We need someone that we begin to apply penalties. We need someone that begins to disconnect all the connections that keep these people in audacity. We need someone that we look into financial crime and we need someone that we give boldness back to the police, boldness back to the military, boldness to the immigration so that they can take these stations because the kind of blackmail that is going on in the police, in the army, in the Navy, Air Force, is too much. There you see an Air Force pilot who went bomb his fellow Nigerian military where you will see people on convoy for a patrol and they will be ambushed on the road. Do you think the admiral remains the same? Don't you know that the Nigerian police, I know, can contain these people, not even the military, because they are afraid. They are afraid to catch the criminals and the criminals themselves will be walking the streets again tomorrow, attacking them. So many people have been maimed. The same terrorists with the cops and you say you are deradicalizing him. So we need a messiah. We need someone that will take off the whip and slug all the irregularities. We need someone that will take off the whip and look into the judiciary, look into the Senate, the legislature, the corrupt party big whips. Whether they are in APC or PDP, they are corrupt and they are trying to maintain that immunity, but staying in power and abusing our opportunities for peace and economy. Final question to Al-Jubaya Bubakar. You're from Katsina State currently residing in Kaduna. One question that I've seen a lot is based on the reaction of Northerners to what their regions and their part of the country have suffered in the last couple of years. Do you think that they are in any way disappointed in the current Nigerian government? Of course. Nobody is happy today. You need to see the moral of people here. You know, under the constitution of Nigeria, the primary duty of government is the protection of life, integrity and property of citizens. If the government fails in this duty, then there's no need for such a government to continue to exist. And the people here are dumped in their spirits, are dumped in their morals and they are rejected. They are despondent. They don't know what to do. And life is brutish. Life is nasty. Life is short. Life is primitive. Just as Thomas Hobbes tempted it. Unfortunately, the politicians do not look at this issue this way because they are comfortable. Because they are comfortable, they pretend that everything is going well. Despite the fact that the social condition, the economic condition, the political situation, the cultural nature of living of the people is completely eroded. And people are living as if they are no longer human beings. Life means nothing to the people. In the north today, most of the people are not happy. But you see, there's one problem with majority of the ordinary people. Most ordinary people look at issues either from the prison of religion or from the prison of religion or from the prison of Christ or from the prison of how much money that a politician can give them or the supremacy of their political party. And all these things are irrelevant as far as the life of the people is concerned. Absolutely. And that is why we continue to tell people here that if by chance, those of us that will be here in 2023, let's only vote for those people who are credible. People whom we believe can change our fortune. I have said it many times that whether President Muhammad Buhari builds railways from the Atlantic Ocean to charge and cross it from Kuala state to Adamal state, it means nothing to us. So long as our lives and properties are not protected. So, northerners are not happy. We are not happy with what is happening. And we want a genuine change that can bring happiness and prosperity to our people. All right, thank you very much. I'll zubai Abubakar, a legal practitioner. Thank you so much for speaking with us this evening. I truly appreciate it. And Ambassador Roy Oki Devia, a military veteran. Thank you also for your time and for expressing yourself on the program. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Thanks for staying with us. We'll go for a short break when we return. The declaration of a state of emergency is called for by the House of Representatives. We'll be right back.