 So, good. We're all set. The meeting is now being recorded. Okay, super. Thank you, Ben. Welcome to the Amherst Historical Commission public hearing and public meeting on Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 631 p.m. Based on Governor Baker's executive order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law. General Laws chapter 30 a paragraph 20 and signed Thursday, March 12, 2020. This hearing and meeting is being held virtually using the zoom platform. Public can listen to the proceedings by visiting the town's homepage and navigating to the town calendar toward the bottom of that page. Click on the meeting schedule for May 19, where the zoom length and telephone connections can be found. My name is Jane Wald and as chair of the Amherst Historical Commission on calling this meeting to order at 632 p.m. This meeting is being recorded and minutes are being taken as usual. So I'll take and take attendance by roll call. Board members as you hear your name called unmute yourself answer affirmatively and then please place yourselves back on mute. Patricia off. Robin Fordham. Shannon Mark work. He's not here yet. Heady startup. Present. Present. Yes, thank you. And so the four of us constitute a quorum. So a few kind of housekeeping comments. Members if any technical difficulties arise, we may need to pause temporarily to rectify the problem and then continue the meeting. And if you do have technical issues, please let Ben know through the, through the chat if that's available to you. I'm not sure that's available, but you can raise hand. Yeah, raise hand or shoot me an email. Okay, thank you. Let's see discussion may be suspended while the technical issues are addressed and the next will note if a disconnection has occurred. Because we have a very full agenda and to maintain an orderly discussion, please use the raise hand function to ask a question or make a comment. I'll, I'll see you raised hand and call upon you to speak and if I don't then Ben will help me keep track of commission members who wish to be recognized. And then after speaking, remember to remute yourselves. For members of the public opportunity for public comment will be provided during the public hearing at appropriate times and during the general public comment period later in the agenda. Please be aware that the commission will take note of comments but will not necessarily respond to them during public comment periods. If members of the public wish to make a comment during a public comment period. You must join the meeting via the zoom teleconferencing link or the video or, or video conferencing link. As explained earlier, these links are available at the on the town website at the calendar listing for this meeting. Please indicate you wish to make a comment by clicking the raise hand button when public comment is solicited. If you've joined the zoom meeting using a telephone please indicate you wish to make a comment by pressing star nine on your phone. When called on please identify yourself by stating your full name and address and put yourself back into mute when finished speaking. I will now move on to express their views for up to three minutes and at the discretion of the commission chair. So we will now move on to the public hearing. We have four demolition permit requests. And I will take a little bit of time to explain how we'll go about this. This is with the provisions of Massachusetts General Laws chapter 40 a an article 13 demolition delay of the Amherst zoning bylaw, this public hearing has been duly advertised and notice there has been posted and mailed to parties at interest. The Amherst historical commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following demolition application requests. This is from 90 Memorial Drive, a request from Maya Marks and Nicholas Defrain, 20 Ball Lane, a request from Carl and Theodore Matysko, 599 East Leverett Road from Donna and Marvin Spence, and 462 Main Street from John Robleski. Applications and other historical information on the affected properties are available at the document center on the town website. So the public hearing is now open. I'll take just a few minutes to explain the goals and procedure for this public hearing. So I hope you'll bear with this explanation. 13 of the town's zoning bylaw governing demolition delay for structures of historical or architectural significance declares that as a matter of public policy, the economic cultural and aesthetic standing of the town of Amherst can best be maintained and enhanced by due regard for the historical and architectural heritage of the town. By striving to discourage the destruction of such cultural assets by the protection enhancement perpetuation and use of structures of historical and architectural significance located within the town of Amherst is a public necessity and is required in the interest of the prosperity civic pride and general welfare of the people. Under Massachusetts general laws in the town of Amherst zoning bylaw, the Amherst Historical Commission is responsible for enacting the purposes and procedures of this policy. So the procedure for the public hearing will be that the commission will hear testimony as follows. First, a report a comment presentation by the applicant if they have anything to add to their to the application already submitted additional information from town staff, if any, questions from the commission members applicants responses to any of this. Then there'll be a request or a period for public comment. So comments and questions from commission members and staff. And at the conclusion of of this, the hearing will then be closed or continued to a future date and time certain. First, the historical commission will begin deliberation of all information received according and evaluated according to the standards for designation as a significant structure in section 13.4 of the zoning bylaw. For the benefit of members of the public attending this meeting the historical commissions deliberations may result in one of three outcomes. First, a finding that the building is not a significant structure, according to bylaw criteria, in which case the demolition permit is approved. Second, a finding that the building is a significant structure, according to bylaw criteria, but that the proposed demolition would not be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. Third, a finding that the building is a significant structure, according to bylaw criteria, and that the proposed demolition would be detrimental to the historical or architectural heritage or resources of the town. In this third instance, the application for a demolition permit might be delayed, or there can be discussion of other options. Finally, it's understood that the purview of the historical commission in this public hearing is only to assess the public interest in preservation of existing structures. According to the current bylaw, it's outside the scope of this commission's authority to base decisions on subsequent use of the site or pending development plans. This is the planning board, zoning board of appeals or design review board are able to take up those concerns. Okay, so we have a first demolition request. Oh, and just a note for commission members because we have a number of demolition requests. The procedure for reviewing the standards for designation as a significant structure. Tonight we will kind of move through the larger categories of historical importance, architectural importance and geographical importance, so that rather than noting individually each of the criteria in each of these categories, I'll ask for your comment on any one of the criteria, any of the criteria within a subhead that would that would help us to understand your sense of whether it's a significant structure or not. So the first demolition permit request is for 90 Memorial Drive. This is parcel 17 a 18 from Maya Marks and Nicholas to frame demolition of a roughly 1947 would frame single family residents. So I'll invite the applicant or their representatives to bring any additional information to the mission that you would like. Great thanks Jane so Maya and Nicholas are you think you're brought into the meeting now can you hear us okay. Yeah, we can hear you. Okay, awesome great so thanks for being able to make it today. So I have an application up here. And I'll invite you to maybe just say a few words about the proposal and kind of hearing your plans for demolishing the building and kind of what your how you came to this conclusion. Yeah, sure. We've had this property for a few years, and we've been trying to plan a renovation of it, but it recently sustained some some severe water damage just over this winter with some pipes freezing bursting and we decided that right now. We feel like it's a it's a better plan to take the building down and start again so our hope is to take it down and we're exploring options to build replace it with a building, but if that's not feasible. We're also considering just keeping it sort of vacant land. So our hope is, is to replace it but at this point, you know, trying to rehab the damage just seems like a lot of extra wasted cost. And part of our interest in the property is we live on the opposite side of the fence so our backyards above it. Yep, so we live at 85 Hillcrest so we would be looking to be able to utilize it as more land. Yeah, so I will add just briefly. The, I do know the water damage and I think there's also some septic issues have been documented by town inspection staff so it's it's something that's on the town's radar and it's, you know, I think there's a report from the department describing the damage as well so it's a documented issue. And here are just some pictures of the house that scroll through here. Is that standing water. Yeah. Yeah. So whoops, those didn't come through for some reason. I'm not sure about that. But in any regards I think the historical information we have about the building it's, you know, mid, mid 20th century so 1947 structure single family home ranch style and attached screen porch. And I guess at this point, Jane, should we open it up for commission members to ask questions. Yes, that would be next so. Any questions. The fact that the water damage has been documented by the town gives us some clear indication of its the scope of it I would, I would guess. But the town was able to notify us that the pipes had burst, because there was water pouring out of the basement through the garage that we didn't know about. And they believe that in the winter it had frozen. And then as it thought as it got warmer it just kind of got let loose and went crazy throughout the house and the pictures didn't show come didn't come through but the wood floors are all buckled. And so it's been pouring. And since that's happened, there's also been some mold damage from that. Yes, I would say, you know, pretty much like 80% of the first floor it's only a single floor but that's that's pretty much damaged and you know parts of the walls and the bathrooms as well. So it's pretty extensive. Thank you. So this was kind of a, that part of it was a unique incident, or, I guess, right, is that when was that that terrible winner a couple of years ago. Actually, this was that during this past winter. I think it was an issue with the furnace. I mean, it's not realizing just, you know, in the midst of the winter and then, and I think it happened sort of sort of towards the end so things started warming back up. The town saw the meter and copy issue and unfortunately a little too late at that point. But we've been trying to heat and condition the building since we bought it. Robin, do you have any questions? I don't think so. I mean, only a philosophical question of when we start getting into this time period. I'm curious what other other folks on the mission think about. What are your thoughts about significance issues around just this era of building that necessarily this particular property. It's a good question Robin. Particularly when you look at the way the house is cited on the lot and the way in which the contractor or architect or whoever built this little ranch. I'm curious about specifically about how to use the drop in the land to absorb the garage in this configuration that we're seeing right on the screen right now. I mean, these little ranch houses were built for the motor car. And, you know, are very much of their era. And many people in the Northeast would give their IT for a little house like this. I'm just curious to know why the owners didn't have anyone living there when they acquired it. Well, Ben pointed out that there's significant septic tank issues. We went past the inspection for the septic and we explored over the first few years of owning the house, what it would take to hook up the system to the town waste line. And in exploring that with the town, there's issues about it being a shallow septic, I'm sorry, a shallow waste line at the end of the cul-de-sac. And attaching to it is more complicated for this house, which is why it was the only one on the street to have a septic tank. So we were exploring options to do so, but since we weren't able to resolve the issue, no one could live in the house. Got it. Thank you. And was there no insurance for? There was insurance, but they didn't cover this incident. So there was like a clause with burst pipes just being that the furnace was checked on at a regular enough interval for their liking, which was when we reviewed the oil bill, it was, you know, we realized that although it was automatically running in prior years, you know, it's gone like at least a few weeks between being monitored and that must have been when the incident happened. So, yeah, unfortunately not covered in as we would have hoped. Okay. So let's see, are there. Any public comment on this application at this time, if anyone wishes to do so. So for those who wish to make a public comment, you can either quit the raise hand button or if you're on your phone, you can dial star nine and that will indicate a raised hand. Okay. All right, then, I'll ask for any final comments or questions from members of the historical commission or town staff. Jane, I have a question and this relates to any property before us. Is there any, do you have any sort of formal process for salvaging from a building before it's demolished. Put a requirement on the building that that happens. I believe that we have made that a condition in the past that the owner make that attempt. Okay. Do we have any salvage people that we've worked with regularly or you just leave it up to the owner. So I know that for, for properties of a certain period or style. I think there is a, there's a lumber salvage place. And I think we're at least consulted for the barn on. Oh, just off of monarchy road in North Amherst. So that's one. I don't have my head don't know of others. Okay, so we can. I think probably it's most efficient as we work through these four to go ahead and close the hearing and then do the review. As I indicated earlier, so is there a motion to close the public hearing. I make a motion that we close the public hearing. And I second. Thank you. Okay. Let's see all in favor I'll just ask quickly pat. Yes. Robin. Yes. Heady. Yes. And Jane. Yes. Okay. All right. So we'll take these in, in sort of four groups. One is whether this property is listed on or is within an area listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Or is the subject of a pending application for such a listing. And Ben, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the answer to that is a no. That is a no. All right. So, looking at the screen under historical importance. As any member of the commission want to. Want to cite any of the criteria as a reason for. Indicating that this is. That this building does have historic importance or significance. And I will just read them because there are people on the phone who can't see. We don't have to go through them one by one, but I think I should just read them out loud. So the criteria are has character interest or value as part of the development heritage or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts or the nation, or is the site of a historic event. Is it identified with a person or group of persons who had some influence on society or exemplifies the cultural, political, economic, social, or historic heritage of the community. I always get stuff. I mean, I'm, I'm leaning towards social heritage. Anyone else. The idea is that it seems to exemplify this war. This war to construction. And making houses available to people with that era. But it doesn't appear to have specific historic me value. Okay, so if that's the only item under historical importance. Let's, let's vote on historical importance. So, Pat. I would say no. Robin. Yes. Okay. Eddie. Yes. And I will say yes. All right, so that takes care of that group architectural importance. The structure meets the criteria of architectural importance if it portrays the environment of a group of people in an era of history characterized by a distinctive architectural style, or embodies those distinguishing aspects of an architectural type. Or is the work of an architect master builder or craftsman whose individual work has influenced the development of the town, or contains elements of architectural design detail materials or craftsmanship, which represents a significant innovation. I'm going to say yes, under 410. The environment of a group of people in an era of history characterized by a distinctive architectural style. Okay. I agree with that. Okay, so we let's go. Take the vote on architectural importance. Pat. Yes. Robin. Yes. Eddie. Yes. And I agree. Yes. Finally, geographic importance. These criteria are that the site is part of or related to a square park or other distinctive area, or that the structure as to its unique location or its physical characteristics represents an established and familiar visual area, a very well-known village center for the community as a whole. Any comments. Yeah, I think, I think this is a very interesting location. The three roads together Memorial Hill crest. getting the third one, but they're all built on the edge of a golf course and have been changed over time. I'm sorry that these guys have dealt with a septic issue that, but I think that's sort of part of the interest of what has been created here in the past in town, which is a set of three roads that are cul-de-sacs next to a golf course that represent a kind of subdivision that is typical of the northeast of the United States in that time period. So let us, let's vote on geographic importance. Pat? I would say yes, given the the concept that Hedy presented. It was a created neighborhood postwar. Rahman. So I'm going to say no. And Hedy? Yes. And I'll say no on that one, which means we're going to tie, but because of the other two areas of historical importance and architectural importance, this results in a finding by the commission that it's a significant structure. As a postwar period. House. So then at this point, we need to discuss whether to allow the demolition permit application to to go forward or or what other options the historical commission wants to exercise. So comment. Well, this gets into the territory of preferably preserved. And I'm going to guess that it's lack of. It's not it's not some it's not an extremely rare structure, therefore. That's one argument against aggressively preserving it. I'm not sure that given the condition that it's in and. I don't know, I'm curious to think what other people think. And I find myself leaning more towards preserving it. Just because it's it's a shame to lose. It's a shame that it's a shame that that that accident happened. I guess I'm trying to get my sense of mentality out of that area. I guess the just visiting the criteria that we have for preferably preserved is. Described vaguely, but generally it's, you know, that the loss of the structure would be a detrimental to the historical and architectural heritage of the community. So that's kind of loosely the. Right, right. Thank you for that. Yeah, I would say that it doesn't mean it doesn't meet that bar. Right. I, I myself agree with that, that it doesn't meet that standard. I'd be interested in comments from Hedy or Pat. I'm very pleased that you live next door and that you've brought this to our attention and. That I think you have a sense of the sort of loss of the structure. I think you have a sense of the sort of long term options, you know, that it could still be a building there, or it could be not a building there. I'm interested in the way you're thinking about about the. The actual site. You know, there are lots of little ranch houses like this all over. The Northeast all over Massachusetts. I feel like it would be better to preserve it, if possible. And, you know, I think that's as much as I'm going to say right now. I agree that it doesn't meet the bar. But I think the loss of a period post-war house is would be unfortunate. However, I think we need to to adhere to our criteria in any decision we make. Are we ready for a motion? Yeah, so I would move that we allow the issuance of a demolition permit. The right motion to make. The right motion to make. That was pretty good. So I'll second that. OK. All in favor, Robin. In favor, I. Pat. Hi. Heddy. Hi. Jane. Hi. So the Commission. All right, is accepts the demolition permit request. So we thank you for coming and presenting this property and and some of its history. And unfortunately, some of its problems. But Ben, do you want to say what next steps are? Yeah, essentially, you filed for a demolition permit application with the building commissioner and now the historical commission has weighed in and approved of the demolition permit. So I will transmit that finding to the building commissioner and authorize the building department to issue the demolition permit. And so there's going to be other steps in terms of finding the contractor getting the utility shut off. And you can work that out with the inspection services department. So but as far as the historical commission is concerned, that this can move forward for demolition. So thanks again for taking the time to present. Yeah, and thank you all for your thoughtful consideration of it all. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. Um, so let's see. Next, the second demolition permit request is for 20 ball lane. This is parcel five, a 56. Carl and Theodore Matisco and it's for a demolition of a former automobile and truck repair garage and farm stand. So I'm wondering if the applicant or representative is here and wishes. Yeah, so, um, let's see if, uh, see a raised hand here. Let's just see if this is the applicant. So we're looking for Matisco and if Roy Johnson is here, he can raise his hand as well, and I can add you to the meeting. You know, I'm sorry about that. Um, I've never been on a zoom meeting quite like this. I've been on a lot of zoom meetings. So, um, this was an auto truck repair building. Just a interrupt. Sorry, quickly. Can you introduce your introduce yourself? My name is Roy Johnson. I work for Jones group. And I represent, um, it's really Ted and Jim Matusko. The family Carl has since passed away, um, many years ago. But the building, uh, was a truck and auto repair. It's now out on 116 and Sunderland. It's called a MTR Matusko trucking and repair. So I think they were asked to leave because it doesn't didn't really fit quite into the neighborhood. Stan Zomac lived right at the end of all lanes. So I think there was some something to do with that. But the building needs to come down because it's unsafe. I'm concerned it could fall on somebody. I won't even go inside the building. I went there one day and I think there could have been. I don't know, but there might have been a homeless person there because I saw food on the loading dock. So I'm very concerned for that reason. Plus, when I looked at the significance, I don't think there's any historical or cultural importance to this building. They've moved on to another part. I had my, uh, inspection done there, but it's not going to affect me on the cultural or the historical part. The architectural part is just like, you know, it's, it's like old Butler building with, I think it's got shingles on the outside and metal roof that's caving in. And then as far as the geographic importance, I think it'll be a much better site without that building there. And that's 20 ball lane. That's a very large building. And I think Ben's going to show us pictures, but also on 20 ball lane is a old farm stand that, um, they actually have an address on there called that's 190 Montague Road for Postal Services. And that was a farm stand that was converted into a place where migrant workers could live three months of the year. And it's, I've been in, it's not suitable for living. There's no way I would let any, any of you live there. Um, it was disgusting. And that really should come down. And I don't know of any historical or cultural significance that it would have. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Ben, do you have, um, comments or photos? Yes, I can show photographs. So this is the application. So this is a 63 Montague Road. And these are the three structures proposed to come down. 20 ball lanes not coming down. 20 ball lane, not 20 ball is, I'm sorry, the one over here on the right is 20 ball lane. There's a slab and a farm stand. Yeah. Okay. So this one is, and that's 40 ball lane. Yeah. Okay. So it's just the farm stand in this lab. And no, and 20 ball lane, I mixed it up. I'm sorry. Okay. Gotcha. And so this is just a concrete slab. Yes. The building was already taken down. Gotcha. Oops. Yeah, let me try to rotate this view. This is where I found, uh, what food and people, I think somebody might have been living there. So that's a big concern. And then this is the farm stand used to be used as a farm stand because they grew, uh, they had acres of vegetables, a lot of vegetables they used to sell there. When was the last time? Well, I pass that every day. And, um, I believe it was occupied until recently. Yeah, I think somebody's been out there for about six months, but, um, they thought that it would require so much more money, uh, to bring it into, uh, livable. And, uh, it's, uh, you'd have to go in Jane to see it's, it's disgusting. I don't know if you could ever get the smell out. It's on a slab, uh, to, to bring it up to a livable, um, condition would be tens of thousands of dollars. Oh, I believe it, but I think my concern in hearing you talk about how, uh, it's condition indoors is, um, who has been living there recently because there've been a lot of, you know, until last year or a little bit before that, there were a lot of children's toys out next to the house. And that is rather concerning. I think there was a gentleman, um, that lived there that had children visiting him. I don't know if they lived there or not. I, I was in there and I think I was inside for 30 seconds. I had to leave. I didn't know what I would catch. It was like, you know, when you walk into a house with, it just was mold and infested. It was like, I just felt that I was going to get sick if I stayed there another second. So I walked out and I was in there. That's the only time I've ever been in. That was about five, six years ago. Wow. Um, what's the extent of the, of the property? Does it go up to the property 8.33 acres? Okay. It goes all the way up to pulpit hill. Yeah. We sold just for your information. We sold off one lot and they built a high, high end energy efficient. They're off the grid up to the right. That's what we'd like to see coming down pulpit hill, some really energy efficient homes built there. And we have some people that are interested, but 20 ball lane is a pretty bad eyesore plus boy of children moved into the neighborhood here and came in here. I'd be very concerned. I wouldn't want any children even close to that building, let alone you or myself. Um, are there questions from other commission members? What year is the 20 ball lane again? This building, the, it was somewhere in the fifties. Is that where you asked Robin? Yeah. I think it was in the fifties that I haven't, I'd go on the public record, but it was more than 50 years ago. So that's why we're here today. I know I had my, my car inspected there more than 30 years ago. That was the place to go. If you wanted to get it passed, I remember that. I had mine done there too. If you didn't have much money. I have a question about what the property is contiguous with in terms of land. It's looks to me like it's really close to the mill river and is it on the Norman justice trail by any chance next to it? I don't think there's a trail because I've been up in the Ellsworth barn and I'm not familiar with that trail. I heady, but across the street there is a stream but that's on the other side of pulpit hill. There is some wetlands way, way in the back off the property. You have to go, the land actually goes way back, back up. This is right off a ball lane. I know this neighbor in the corner here, he would love to see these buildings down. The person that built the house up on pulpit hill actually headed in the contract that would come down within one year, but that came out of the contract because the attorneys didn't want to have it in there. I've walked this area behind the rec center and the pool and everything, right? I mean, I think so, but maybe I've got myself turned around here on Google Maps. Is it a little bit south to the south end? Okay. I think it might be the front trail east of there. Yeah. Yeah, so the Puffer's Pond trail, was that the one you were referring to? That goes through the Mill River, but I know they sold some land and three homes got built on summer street. I think Shawl Perry built three homes in there and then, so I think it's all private land going into this land. I walk a lot of trails. I've never seen a trail going into the, and I've never seen anybody walking the property. I've been there quite a bit. Okay. I think I'm looking at the wrong bit of the Mill River. I'm just looking at where it's, I haven't driven down the end of Ball Lane. I do know the new buildings on summer street that you're talking about, and I really love this part of Amherst, and I think a lot of other people do too. Yeah. I live in North Amherst. Yeah, it's beautiful. I go up, you know, all the time at Puppet Hill, and then I cross over so I can take a look at the falls, because that's the only way you can go now. You know, it's one way, but it is gorgeous. And I think if these buildings come down, it'll look even better. Okay. Thank you. Are there other questions, comments, by commission members? I also just wanted to recognize that Jen did join us. Hi, Jen. Hi. I'm sorry I'm late. I hope it wasn't a problem. No, no. Glad you're here. Okay. This looks fine to me to come down. I think most of the conversation. Then let's hear any public comment if there is some. And Ben, I think you're able to. Yeah. So I'll, we have three raised hands. Let me, I'll first allow recognized Meg Gage and allow her to talk. Hi, Meg. Can you hear us okay? Can you hear me? Correct. We can. Yep. Thank you. Thanks everybody for serving on this commission. And I really appreciate all the work you're doing. I live, my husband, I live across the street. I don't know if you can see my character. No. Over there. We live across the street on Montague Road. And we also own the house across the street on Pulpethill Road that's to the north of this property. I have to confess it's hard to see how this building is aligned with the standards for significant structure as Jane described. But I have to share because I don't know where else to do it. Alarm in the community, in the neighborhood about the Brownfields problem under this site. There have been various offers to buy the land and very close to the final negotiations. But according to federal law, the sellers are obligated to clean up Brownfields and the Matuscos were unwilling to sign a purchase and sale that obligated them to that. And I'm very concerned that many of us are that while these buildings are nice or and, you know, it's hard to, as I said, they can't understand. This is the only place I know where to make these comments is in this because I haven't heard of any other hearings. But they're selling off the little lots along Pulpethill Road, which then what are they going to do? They tear the building down and they're going to probably, I don't know, we just don't trust that they're going to be able to, that this will ever get cleaned up. And by the way, there were kids last year getting off the school bus. They actually lived in that house. It's really horrendous. But I'm just, anyway, that's my comment. Thank you. And if there's a better place to make this comment, a better commission, because it's really hard to see how this is historically significant building. But I will make, I'll make that comment in the right place. But I really appreciated getting a little card in the mail about this hearing. Thank you, everybody. Could I respond to that because- Wait, you're not supposed to respond. I don't think. All right, respond. And then I get to respond to you, right? Well, no, we're just going to move on to the next public comment. Great. I love that. Thank you. Bye. I thought you might want the facts. Can we, let's hear all of the public comments and then we'll ask you for additional information. Yeah, that sounds good. Okay. So I'm recognizing Lyons Witton. Good evening. Hi, good evening. So I'm Lyons Witton. Yeah, thank you. I'm Lyons Witton. I am at a butter to the north. I live in a co-housing community on Public Hill Road. And I was also an interested buyer of the property in the last several years. I've walked through all the buildings. And I have to agree with Meg that I don't see any historical significance to any of the structures. And I agree with, excuse me, with Roy that the property would be a lot safer if the buildings were demolished. My concern has to do with environmental issues at the property, particularly with there's at least one floor drain inside the large structure, 20 ball lane. And there are two floor drains in the slab that used to be the old truck garage. My concern is if the demolition permits are granted, I don't care about the buildings themselves coming down, but if the slabs are removed, then the location of the floor drains will be hard to find later and hard to conduct proper environmental assessment and cleanup. So, and again, I don't know where else to make this comment in a public hearing in town. So I came here. But if the commission saw fit, I think it's appropriate to pass that information along to the building department and let the building commissioner decide whether the slabs themselves could be removed prior to determining if there is or isn't an environmental issue there. My profession is looking at properties like this and doing assessment and doing cleanup. So I'm very clear on what I see and the potential for a problem at the property. And I tried to negotiate that with them, but just goes and work it out. We weren't able to do that. But I also see that if the slabs disappear, that redevelopment of the property could happen without anybody really realizing that there's an environmental issue or someone coming in to do environmental assessment and not knowing where to look because the slabs are no longer there. So that's my comment. Okay, thank you for your comment. Thank you. There is another hand, Tom. Yes, hi. Can you hear me okay? Yes, we can hear you. Would you mind identifying yourself for the record please? Absolutely. My name is Tom Crossman. I have a small property management company in Amherst called Crossman Properties. And I also tried living in the farm stand for about six months. So I don't have kids. So it was the previous occupant that had children visiting and it was his grandchildren that visited. I think the Matuscos are making an effort to improve the property by submitting a request for demolition of the property. I do not know if everybody realized that there had been some cleanup done after the demolition of the first garage in 1998. They actually removed contaminated soil from that property. So there has been some environmental cleanup already executed at the property. So to the behalf of the Matuscos, they have not completely ignored the conditions of the property and have made efforts in the past. And then yeah, I mean, from a real estate perspective, these buildings have kind of exceeded their rather they've reached functional obsolescence. So there's really not a way to use these properties in the condition that they are. And the cost of repair would be pretty significant. And then you'd still have an old building that has kind of expired. It's normal use. So I just wanted to speak to some of those as somebody who deals with real estate on a day-to-day basis. And then somebody familiar with this property to make sure that people understand that the Matuscos have been doing cleanup at the property and this property would benefit significantly from the removal of those two existing buildings. Okay, thank you for your comment. Roy, would you care to make a comment? I would love to. So there's a whole set of attorneys that have been involved in this process. And when I took over the project, I had suggested doing what they call a 21E. That's what Lyons and that's what Meg was referring to. A 21E is three different phases. We brought in Allen Weiss to take a quick look. He does the same thing that Lyons Witten does. And Allen came in and said, looking at the records, it looks like the fire department's cleaned up the oil tank that was outside. It was so long ago that the building has been left empty that the odds of finding something would be very slim. However, they would do a phase one, which was a couple of thousand dollars, a phase two, which they would dig holes to see if there was any soil contamination. And Allen didn't think that they would probably need to go beyond that. So we did get an offer. And the attorneys, let me back up, the attorneys said, whoever buys it through a bank is going to have to have their own license site professional, their own LSP. So why would we want to spend the money with our LSP if we're going to have to have it done again? And so Lyons was going to do that. The crux of the matter was we had given Lyons the whole property a very good price. And he said he would do it. And then Matusko said, okay, we'll give you up to $50,000 to do it. And they couldn't come together on an agreement. And so it's amazing how much misinformation is out there. I mean, the world, look what happened to our political system. And that's why I thank you for letting me explain this. Matusko's want to do everything right to clean this up. As Tom said, they've done everything in the past right. They tore the building down when the Tom asked them to. These buildings need to come down for safety. And I hope the commission understands that there's no importance on any of those significance. And once the buildings are up, anybody that comes in and buys it is going to need to do a 21E. And we will make sure they do it. Rob Morrow will make sure they do it. Everybody's on board to have these buildings down and to do it the right way. Okay, thank you for that comment and for that clarification. I think, I mean, while I understand that there are environmental concerns, I think that is getting a little far afield of what the historical commission is able to do. And so I think maybe we should move on to our consideration and Ben, if there is information you have about process going forward with the building commissioner about these concerns, you can let us know. Yeah, definitely. I was not aware of the background with this property, but I would encourage members of the public who are concerned to either reach out to the building commissioner or also the conservation commission might come into play as well because it is close to Whitelands as well. So that would be the better avenue or forum for this type of discussion. And we can return to this concern after our own deliberation about significance. So let's see, could I have a motion to close the public hearing for this property? I make a motion to close the public hearing. And thank you, Jan, for the second. So we'll just sort of formalize that with a vote. Pat, all in favor closing the, yeah, okay, thank you. I got lost there for a minute. Heddy, I'm afraid you're muted. I'm sorry, I muted myself. Yes. Yes, thank you. Robin? Yes. And Jan? Hi. And Jane, yes, I vote to close the public hearing. So Jan, we're doing our, because we have so many demolition requests this evening, we're going through the criteria a little bit differently. So we're just sort of grouping them as historical importance, architectural and geographic. Yeah, we've done that before. It works well. Yeah, thanks. Okay. But because there are participants on the phone, we'll probably just quickly read the criteria and then have any comments that members wish to make about that general category. So to begin with, let's see, first criterion is whether the property is listed on or within an area listed on the National Register of Historic Places or is the subject of a pending application. And I believe the answer to that is no. Uh-huh. Okay. Next is a collection of criteria concerning historical importance. Does the structure have character, interest, or value as part of the development, heritage, or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, or the nation? Or is the site of an, is it the site of an historic event? Or is it identified with a person or group of persons who had some influence on society? Or does it exemplify the cultural, political, economic, social, or historic heritage of the community? So open to comment from commission members. I would say no on all counts. Me too. Yeah, there's no historical importance in my opinion. Even economic. I mean, it's just not in good enough shape anymore to suggest a bog-on era of, you know, development in the town. Agreed. Architectural importance. The structure meets the criteria of architectural importance if it portrays the environment of a group of people in an era of history characterized by a distinctive architectural style or embodies those distinguishing characteristics of an architectural type. Or is the work of an architect, master builder, or craftsman whose individual work has influenced the development of the town or contains elements of architectural design, detail, materials, or craftsmanship, which represents a significant innovation. I would say no. No, again, I would say there is no distinguishing architecture, architectural style. No, no. Tan, can you just speak to our discussion about the Berticci's Building, which is a garage, and this one. I'm just trying to figure out how to, I mean, I recognize the condition that it's in. I don't know what condition is supposed to weigh on our ideas about whether it's significant or not, but I think you and I both agreed that the Berticci's Building was significant, and I'm trying to figure out how this would be different. Yeah, I thought of it actually as we were reading that and I was answering, I think one of the big differences is that that building did have a specific architectural style of an era, and represents a particular time when those kinds of buildings were going into downtown. And this is more of a kind of frame structure thrown up in what would now we would call a pole barn style, really. It was designed, whereas the Berticci's Building, when it was built as a garage, it was, that was a very classic look for a garage. And it was, to me, it looks like a type I was very familiar with, for instance, in Los Angeles during that era. There are others around town, too. Yeah, I don't see this one of that quality personally. I mean, maybe you don't agree, so feel free. No, no, I was just, I'm learning as I go along here. And just like the materials are of higher quality, the size, the way the windows are done, the entire base, all of it was just more carefully, to me, constructed for its purpose. And there's nothing distinguishing about this building we have under discussion. I don't think so. What are your thoughts on that, Jane, that question? I accept Jane's description of the differences between the two. The building that's still, if it's the garage building on Ball Lane, that seems a completely undistinguished structure. Yeah, thank you. All right. Finally, the structure meets the criteria of geographic importance if the site is part of or related to a square park or other distinctive area, or the structure as to its unique location or physical characteristics represents an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood village center or the community as a whole. Does this sound like it any longer has any positive reference as a visual feature? Okay. Yeah, I agree with that. Hedy, any comments? It seems to me that if I could walk back to the 50s and stand on the little bridge just before the wreck, the pool, and on the beginning of Montague Road, that it would be possible at some point in history to see this as something much more coherent and not distinguished but coherent as an aspect of North Amherst's development. But I agree, it's hard to find it in its present state. Yeah, the only one of the three elements of this application that I can see, and as I mentioned, I go by there every day, is the farm stand building. And so the 20 ball lane is not really even visible unless you go back there. You can see it from Pulp and Hill. Okay. All right, so sounds like we are agreed that the building doesn't meet any of the required criteria, which means that the demolition permit can move to its next step. We have a special vote, Jane. Yes, we do. Yeah, yeah, okay. Sorry about that, yes. Is there a motion? I move that recognizing no criteria of importance applied to the structures that we grant permission to the building commissioner to issue a demolition permit. Second? Second. Thank you. Okay, all in favor. And I will begin with Jan. Yes. Robin. Hi. Pat. Yes. Teddy. Yes. And I vote yes also. So question for you is as community members, do we want to suggest that the building commissioner pay particular attention to the environmental questions? Yes. And, you know, I dealt with a property in Illinois that had been a former gas station. And I don't know if this is the same, but I thought the EPA had to investigate before anything changed hands or was changed on the property. So maybe that's included in these other analyses, but I imagine the building commissioner would know, but I thought you had to get the EPA in review. Jan, I think you might be correct about that. And I think also Roy's comments about the fact that once the slabs are removed, it would be difficult to know where the drains were. And it might be a recommendation to the building commissioner that if the slabs are removed, the places where the drains were be marked clearly so that that area could be assessed. And I do think the EPA has to get involved or we'll get involved. Can I make a comment? I don't know what's appropriate or not. No, I'm sorry. Okay, no problem. Okay. Thank you. All right. So, Ben, do you want to make a comment about the next steps? Yeah, similar to before your demolition application was submitted to the building commissioner. So it's now authorized to move forward by the historical commission and assuming, you know, that you've met the other requirements in terms of the state building code, then the building commissioner can authorize the issue, the demolition permit. And yeah, I think the environmental questions are a little bit out of the purview of the historical commission, but certainly I don't fall anyone for bringing it up at a public forum here and it's certainly appropriate. And I can include, you know, in my just email to the building commissioner a brief overview of the discussion that happened tonight. Yeah, if you would pass it along to him, I think we'll have done our job. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Ben. And thank you, Roy. We appreciate you talking about this. Appreciate you guys volunteering for this. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. So our third demolition permit request is for 599 East Leverett Road owned by Donna and Marvin Spence for complete demolition of a circa 1850 farmhouse that has been a rental property. So is the applicant or representative present? Um, Mr. Spence, I was able to bring you into the meeting as a panelist. I believe you're still on mute. So I'm going to ask you to unmute yourself. Hopefully. Yeah, Mr. Spence, would you like to make any comment about the property or the application for a demolition permit that you submitted? We're not able to hear you. So, but you're not on mute. So I'm trying to figure out. Is there anyone else here to speak on behalf of the 599 East Leverett Road application? Is there, can we think of another way to bring Mr. Spence in? Someone else raised their hand here. Is he on Zoom or is it a phone call? There's a phone call coming in. Yeah. But I'm wondering if Mr. Spence is trying a different method. All right, Ben, are you able to unmute the panelist? Um, I can ask them to unmute, but that's it. Okay. I'm actually, I'm looking at right now. How do you unmute a phone on Zoom? Yeah, you can unmute every mute and unmute everyone if you're the administrator. You can mute my cat if you want. Okay. I see Mr. Spence is unmuted. Are you able to hear us, Mr. Spence? Can you start your video so we can see whether you're there and are nodding or shaking your head? Is Mr. Spence on a computer or a phone? Yeah, that's what I had asked. No, I don't know. Who's on your phone call? Perhaps, I wonder if we should go to the 462 Main Street. And then come back. It's a great idea. Yeah, we'll say just briefly for the person on the phone. I think if you press star six, that will unmute yourself. Can try that. Star six. Did you hear us now? We can, yeah. Yeah, could you identify yourself, please? And then my name is Marvin Spence and my wife, Donna. We own the property at 599 East Leverett Road. We've only been here for 40 years. It's kind of rental and it's in bad disarray, just repair and we like to take it down. Okay, thank you. Let's see, I know that there's going to site visit and Ben, do you have any other information that you'd like to add prior to discussion of the site visit? Not that hasn't been covered in the application. I mean, it's a family structure rented, I believe they said, since 1972. It hasn't been occupied in a few years. Let's see, we found it, the year built is an estimate at 1850. I believe that's fairly accurate. And at our site visit, we did see that the building is in pretty poor condition, both the interior and exterior. So I'm just trying to find the pictures here. Those must have been in a separate document, sorry. And the electric has been disconnected as well from the building. Okay. Jane, do you want a little bit of a description from us or you want to wait till later from what we saw at the site visit or do you want to wait? No, I think this is a time for both the description, reflections on the site visit and any questions for the owner. Okay, well, Hedy and Kat and I get inside and looked around the outside. It has, there's a one and a half story structure in the front. It looks like it was original. It has the central brick, chimney mask would have had rooms on either side in a traditional, you know, kind of haul parlor style. But it has been changed a great deal over the years, broken up and reworked. And then there are multiple buildings to the east that were added over time, a two-story structure and then another one-story structure on a slab. He would, Mr. Spence said that they were being rented as two units. But it's all in really bad shape, both structurally and in the interior. So I agree with him that it was in pretty rough. But we did, you know, look at the layout and look at the historical character and there isn't much left. I tend to agree with Jan. The fireplace is the most interesting aspect of what's left there now and a couple of old wooden doors in the interior. But it's really been stripped of historical significance. Even the fireplace, some of the bricks have been replaced. Okay. Pat or Robin? Did you, I'm sorry, I didn't hear whether you had gone to the site visit or not. I just commented, Jane, I was, I was a site visit. Yes, okay. I was not, Ben, there's a bad, I'm getting a bad echo. Is anyone else? Yeah, it's from the phone call. There would have been the phone call. Yeah, it happens when you, when you use the phone sometimes. Yeah, we're hearing what they're hearing delayed. Right, right. Okay. Thank you. I was not at the site visit. Okay. I was just going to quickly share images of the structure. It's the West elevation. That's the addition to the East. Two additions. Yeah. There's the front door of the original one and a half or whatever you would call that. I guess it's sort of a story. The chimney is falling apart. Beneath that is a huge chimney mass as you find in, you know, earlier 19th century. I'd say 1850 was being a little bit optimistic with the dating. Yeah. You mean you think it's a little older, I think. A little older. Okay. Is it structurally unsampled anyway? Yes. I mean, we didn't go down to the basement. I didn't want to walk through it because I didn't feel safe walking on stairs or through too much of it. It's pretty rough. Yeah, we could, we could ask the property owners to comment on the structural issues. So, Mr. and Mrs. Spence, if you can, once again, sorry, press star six to unmute yourself if you have any comments. Star six, once again, to unmute. Yeah. Can you hear us? We can. Yeah. Sorry about that. I mean, in the cellar, it's got a lot of brine lock and beetles and termites. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so why don't we now take public comment if there is any? Jan, Jane, could I just, could I say something just that's sort of out in that field again, maybe? Again, this property is charming and on the edge of Amherst and a really beautiful setting. And I feel for the owners that they've rented and have had difficulties with some of the rentals and that they're dealing with a property that has a lot of issues going on. But I just read somewhere that no one in Massachusetts can buy a single family home for under $500,000. And that, you know, the price of affordable housing is just kind of going in the wrong direction for our country and our population. And I'm sorry that you feel that you want to demolish this rather than pick it up like you did a nearby property that you own that looks so beautiful and kind of remake it because it is a charming sort of setting with those grand trees and the lake below it. It has many kind of bucolic properties. And I think if this building was in a different town or setting or had a different history in terms of its evolution of decay, you know, we might be voting differently. So, you know, I was happy that I made the site visit and glad that we got some information at the time about the, I think the foundation is unstable in that earlier part of the building. So I feel for you as owners of what you're sort of up against as well. Okay, thank you, Heddy. Right, I see no other requests for public comment. So let's have a motion to close the public hearing. I so move. Seconded. Okay, thank you. And all in favor of closing the public hearing. Hi, thank you. Heddy. Hi. Robin. Hi. Jan. Hi. Hi. So unanimous, so the public hearing is closed. So we'll go to our just reviewing the standards for designation as a significant structure. And of course, the first one is whether it's part of a, whether it's listed on the national register or the subject of a pending application. And that would be, that would be no. So next is the set of criteria for historical importance, which will take as a group, whether it has the character interest or value as part of the development heritage or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst, the Commonwealth, or the nation, or is the site of an historic event, or is identified with a person or group of persons who had some influence on society or exemplifies the cultural, political, economic, social or historic heritage of the community. In this case, I would say that the social and historic heritage of the community is represented by these types of houses in these locations. That doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be taken down, but I do think that it qualifies there. Yes. True. I would agree with that as well. It seems like it might have been the central house to the farmland. Okay. I would agree then. Okay. Thank you. So we, that's a yes for historical importance. Architectural importance. The criteria are that it portrays the environment of a group of people in an era of history characterized by a distinctive architectural style or embodies those distinguishing characteristics of an architectural type, or is the work of an architect, master builder or craftsman whose individual work has influenced the development of the town or contains elements of architectural design, detail materials or craftsmanship, which represents a significant innovation. Again, a 411-0. It doesn't anymore because it's been changed so much. You can't recognize it, but the plan of this type of house was distinctive in that era. It's just been lost through modifications. I think that's well said, Jen. It's been lost. We can see and envision its origins, but it doesn't exist that way now, except for the exterior initial part of the building. But you can tell that it was of a bright type of house from that era, but if you wanted to dig deep, it doesn't. It isn't a good example anymore. It shouldn't be retained as an example, for instance. Right. Ronan, do you have thoughts? Yeah, I would agree with that. All right, so that sounds like a no. No. Okay. Yeah, I guess it's a no because I would have to say it no longer in portraits. That's right. Yeah, it doesn't. It's wishes or horses it would, but it doesn't. Right. Then for geographic importance, the site is part of or related to a square, park, or other distinctive area, or the structure as to its unique location, or its physical characteristics, represents an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood, village center, or the community as a whole. No. I think it fits better under 4100, the idea that it repeats itself. So, I mean, 4103, it represents the heritage, but it's not specific to this neighborhood. Okay. Okay, then our review suggests that it meets the criterion of historical importance under 13.4100. No, 4103. Oh, I'm sorry, 4103. I made the same mistake a second ago. I was kind of just repeating what I said. All right, so then we'll move on to considering whether it, whether its removal would represent a detriment to the interest, the historical cultural interest of the community. We need to, was that a formal vote? We need a motion. Okay, okay. A motion about whether to allow the permit. Okay. I didn't think we had a formal vote over its significance, thus. Well, I think it's stated, like although it meets the criterion of architectural importance, we don't feel that that's significant enough in this case to deny the application. Still moved. Yeah, is that right, Jane? That's what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And a second? Second. Okay, so is there further discussion? Yeah. Make sure, I guess we were concerned when we were there that Mr. Spence, that the trees in front, we hope you aren't going to take those down. They're absolutely beautiful and we hope you want to keep looking at them from your house because that would be a greater loss to us than the structure. All right, so let us vote on the motion. If you are in favor, please so indicate. I'll start with Eddie. Yes. Jan? Yes. Robin? Yes. Pat? Yes. And I vote yes as well. So Mr. and Mrs. Spence, thank you for your application and for coming to this hearing to talk about what you'd like to do with the house. Your demolition permit has been, we've voted favorably on that and there will be other steps that Ben has already described, but if you just want to summarize quickly, that would be. Yeah, yeah, certainly. So the historical commission has weighed in and approved the demolition. I've been corresponding with Cheryl about this project, so I will get in touch with her and contact you with the, and let the building commissioner know that the demolition permit can be issued for this property. So thanks again for taking the time to join us. Thank you. So our fourth demolition permit request is for the structure at 462 Main Street with, from owner John Roblesky, which is to demolish a roughly 1828 wood frame structure known as the JT Westcott House, which is on in the state database of historic structures that has most recently been used as an office building. So Mr. Roblesky is providing a number of documents assessing the condition of the structure from a variety of perspectives and Mr. Wilfred has shared his research about the building, so we have a good deal of information related to this application. And if Mr. Roblesky or other representatives would like to make comments, please do. I don't know if you can hear me, but I don't see the option for a video. Okay, hi John. Yeah, we can hear you. So in the, in the bottom left, if you have a camera on your on your computer, the bottom left, it says start video and you can just click the button there. Yes, usually it does. I've been on Zoom meetings before on this computer, but it only has mute in the microphone. Usually the video camera is there, so I don't know if you have to invite me specifically on the video. Yeah, Ben, did you set him up for a full panelist? Does that work now at all, John? Okay, there it is. Okay, there we go. Yeah, great. Thank you. And is there anyone else from your team here that you should bring in? I see Kristine and yeah, there we go. I think Kristine and perhaps the architectural engineer, John Wallin. Okay, hello everyone. Thanks for so much thorough information. And would you like to make further comments? Yeah, I guess just give you a brief history. My wife and I are the sole re-enters of 462 Main LLC. We bought this property from Nancy and Paul Hamill in the end of November 2017. After that came up with some plans with the help of the architects and went before the planning board and got approval to build the building that you saw under construction there now. And we also got approval from you folks last year to take down the garage that was in the back, which we did, as you saw it. And our intentions were to keep this building and try to rework it. And initially, I thought that it was going to be a fairly simple process to shim the floors up and get them to where they're somewhat level, because as you saw, they dropped like three and a half to four inches from south to north and east to west. The whole center of the building is kind of going down. I didn't realize the extent of it until another builder looked at it a little while ago. And he said, you better take another look at this structure. So he did. And that's where I decided that it just, even though my intentions were good and I really wanted to save the porch, you know, that look of the building, which I did next door at 22 High Street back in the late 90s, we redid that home. But that home didn't have the issues that are appearing in the structural portion of this building now. So we were able to do a lot of work to that building in those, you know, two nice rental units in there. As you saw, the sill plates, you know, on the west side are really in poor condition, where I had that one section of board pulled out for you to that, what they call the capstones, which I didn't realize until Mr. Wallen stated that they're called capstones. Those are kind of tilting to the outside. And when you look at that hole that we saw down in a basement between the brick and the capstone, that's where the beam sits for the structure. And it's actually sitting on those interior bricks. So with all this decay that's happened, apparently it's pushing the capstones out as the bricks deteriorate and then pushing the bricks to the inside. And the biggest issue with the work they did back in around 1980 was that when they put good beams underneath the bad beams that already were very decayed and didn't do anything with the floor there, kept it dirt and with water running through there and so forth, the powder post beetles kept eating away at it. And so that top main original beam kept decaying. And that's apparently causing a lot of that sagging. And the engineer can maybe speak to that after I'm done. It is listed in the railroad depot district. The mass historical commission did an inventory of the homes along Main Street and along the railroad tracks that back in the day had a lot of railroad employees and things like that for housing and their restores and stuff. So yes, I mean my intentions were to absolutely save this and you just saw I put a good amount of work into it already between the upstairs heating and air conditioning, electrical work, cementing the basement floor. I figured that would help with the mold issue and so forth. And also heating insulation work I did. So it just come down to a decision that I really didn't want to make, but that's where we're at right now. I did ask the building commissioner if they wanted to come and view this after I got the structure report. And they basically said they're going to defer to the architect and the structural engineers reports and rely on that versus them going out, which I kind of figured they don't want to get into that position of saying that yes, it's a bad building and need something from a professional to rely on. So when that inventory was done by the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission that was in 1988. And one of the statements there it says this is one of the few remaining side gabled farmhouses in Amherst with flush hoarding on the gable cornice trim. A relayed example of surviving nearby Hadley to spend the work, wraparound porch dates from about 1890. So that was in 1988 and it says one of the few remaining at that point in time. And here we are 12 over 30 something years later. So a lot of those homes that were of this architectural style were already gone in 1988. So work has been done to this it's been probably not the best rehab work to kind of make it a usable office space in 1980. So that's when it became from a residence to a real estate office. So right now it's at the point where trying to put more money into it isn't going to help the structural issues and the structural issues are creating a liability for trying to rent it given the trip hazards with the floors the way they are unevenness slanted the low ceilings in the second floor. If we tried to level those out and get them somewhat leveled then we're well below the seven foot building code. And you have all the information from the architectural letter that was received today and the engineer's report. So although my intentions were very sincere and very well intended I guess it just I had to make that call and this is the point we're at it just not worth putting that amount of money on estimate was 250 to $300,000 to get it to where it kind of needs to be structurally. And that's got to go all the way up through the building. So it means a lot of tearing apart and rebuilding and so forth. So that's where we are. And I would ask that you take that into consideration. I know it has whisked in the railroad district and certain architectural features and it is what it is type thing so. Okay thank you for that account. Do either of your colleagues want to make any comments? I can speak if you'd like. I'd like to just touch on the structural floor issue. Can everyone hear me? We can hear you. The floor joists and the sills are all rotted to the point where the building has come down not just in the center but also on the outside. And it's down far enough where possibly the studs are actually touching the foundation and splitting the foundation apart. In the difficulty I've lifted some of these buildings but usually there's a sill of some kind under it to be able to lift it up. And with this building lifting it there's nothing there to lift from is the real problem. And then the rest of the floor joists that connect to that sill are disconnected from it. So even if we had sills to lift from the floor would have to come up you'd have to put like a blanket underneath the whole building to try to lift it up and it's very precarious to it. They usually don't get this far. They usually will have when the repairs were made like sistering the joists up usually they would have replaced sills while the building was still up while the elevation of it was still up in the air. The difficulty that I see with this is just trying to lift it up. We've done buildings where they've had sills in certain areas maybe a little bit of it's rotted and you can support the studs and put in a new sill and then jack it up. My fear with this building is that there's been a lot of siding that's been replaced on it and I think that's been replaced because possibly the walls have been rotted too. And if the workmanship in the walls looks like it does in the floors as you start taking apart those walls you could have a collapse and the foundation is near collapse right now. So it's more serious than what I think John had thought when he asked me to come in and take a look at it. It's pretty concerning. All right thank you. Let's see. Ben do you have any other information you want to share? Yeah I guess I'll just say you know I think everything John and his colleagues have provided quite a bit of information in terms of architectural and engineering reports. I'll just touch on the history from what I've been able to discern and I'm just going to, John was correct that it is listed as a contributing structure to the DEPO district which is, I don't believe that's not the national register but it's a mass historic recognized district in Amherst. Sorry I'm on the wrong page here. I did, I worked with the special collections in Jones library to collect some information about the building and I can share that here as well. So this is the information about the owners of 462 Main Street. JT Westcott, Jared Taff Westcott was the original owner from 1850 to 1888. He was a businessman in Amherst and worked in the palm leaf hat industry in Amherst and was also the first president or the first director of the First National Bank of Amherst which I think is the now Amherst works in the center of town. The daughter of Jared Westcott then presumed ownership of the building. James and Mary Harrington were owners from 1894 until 1942 when Mary's estate told the property and then more recently Michael and Catherine Garvey owners from 1942-1980 and their son Robert Garvey you know this is more more recent history. Robert Garvey was born in 1938. He was the member of Amherst select board Hampshire County Commissioner and was the a very long-serving Hampshire County Sheriff from 1984 to 2016. So that's who's kind of occupied the house over the years and as Mr. Roblesky said it's been used as an office building for the past decade or so a few decades. No 40 years. 40 years okay and just looking through time kind of various different maps that are available to us in special collections. Sorry about the resolution it's not the best when you zoom in but this is one of the first maps of Amherst from 1873 and you can see the railroad coming through town in this building the JT Westcott building placed here in a same orientation as it is now and then this is an interesting picture showing a actual drawing a depict drawing of the building from 1886 you can see the typical you know farmhouse style with the attached barn on the back interestingly you can see in 1886 the porch wasn't quite the full wrap around that you see now so I'm not exactly sure when that was added and here are the the sandborn fire maps they don't show you much in terms of architectural detail just the mentions but 1916 1930 so looks like the wrap around porch started in 1960 right right exactly so yeah that's um kind of the additional information I have um outside of the uh the engineering and architectural reports that have been provided great thank you I always love looking at the maps yeah yeah um all right uh questions comments from commission members any reflections from your uh from our site visit I think the reports that mr Robusky has provided to us really give us the information we need to appreciate the status of the building itself and that's something that you need to have a specialist engineers and architects to identify and those were very helpful for my understanding I wanted to go back to my question from earlier about architectural salvage in particular in relationship to this building and whether we want to discuss that at all Robin um could I just ask if a point of clarification that no one would be willing to bet that we could move this house somewhere else safely given what you were saying about the sills and the joists is that a question for the engineer yeah it is because I think we need to consider is that a possibility before we consider salvage yep that does sense I can speak to that um it it would be very very difficult to lift the building from a safety standpoint I think you would need to spend probably 10 000 just to find out if it could be done and if it could be done it would be lifted by the second story is the only way I could see it could be done but uh it's moved so much that the chances are that a lot of the tenons are broken off on the inside of the post and beam structure it's just settled so unevenly that um I don't think that that's practical no it's definitely not economically practical for sure thank you um are there so sort of picking up on Robin's question uh is there any material I mean it sounds like there's a lot of rot you know and framing members are not in good shape but are there any items I was noticing things like doorknobs and of course those beautiful windows out front I mean I don't know anything about architectural salvage other than how much fun it is to go to an architectural salvage store and and I don't you know I just wouldn't want to see anything that could be um you know taken and reused somewhere else to have the opportunity for that to happen but I've again I have no familiarity with that kind of process at all so I agree Robin and I were looking at those three front windows in particular they're a unique shape and um a really beautiful example of that sort of window um there's also things like the gingerbread on the posts and you know various other features that aren't too bad of shape that it would just be nice to have as historical artifacts to maybe incorporate into another building um just in terms of salvage as far as the rest of the building goes um I'm I was really disappointed to see this come through because when we did the inspection of the garage um as admitted um you know was said that the um the building would be saved and um sorry and you know I completely understand after reading the reports and and listening to all the presentations that it can't be but it is a shame because it's one of those buildings that is um prominent on a main street right out front where you can see it next to a similar building um not as not as high quality I don't think is the one next door but um it certainly has a distinctive character and it it is a shame but um things happen and buildings deteriorate so um I understand although you know it's very disappointing my two cents all right I'm going to ask for um any other final questions comments from commission members um and then I think we should ask for public comment okay so why don't we move to public comment and see if there are any um participants who would like to speak I'll invite Tom to make a comment is this still Tom Crossman hi good evening yes I actually did recently speak to the tune for another property but coincidentally I know this property pretty well also again my name is Thomas Crossman for the record I'm from Crossman Properties actually Crossman Properties is located at 462 Main Street we have been for a number of years we were there before John took over the management to speak to the to the building you know I'm a startup business in Amherst and so finding a portable commercial space is a challenge and so we actually started on the north side of this building a very small office and we were squeezed in there for a number of years and we benefited from that garage until we were fortunate enough to outgrow that garage so we eventually actually moved to the middle office in this building and it's kind of an invisible enemy existed in the sense that we actually started to have some some of our staff members were becoming a little ill I myself experienced some respiratory symptoms that you know I am in and out of the office so I didn't exhaust too much time in the office but on the days that I was in there for an extended period of time my the middle office is next to the doorway that goes into the basement so I the stagnant air and the moisture from the basement was impacting my my ability to breathe well so we actually moved to that front office space and and some at some point John took ownership of the building I will speak to the care that Mr. Roblesky has put into the building since he's taken ownership and the previous owners cared too you know if I had a concern they would respond but John has really gone above and beyond one of the things refinishing that floor improved the air quality it's it's it's not perfect but it's significantly improved from where it was before John owned it and then yeah again from the perspective of being in real estate and maintaining properties and managing properties throughout this community I do notice that there's there's a number of elements of this building that are fatigued you know they've they've exceeded their useful life we still feel for the short term that it's it's safe enough to function and operate out of but in the longer term we do have plans to leave the building so yeah I want to speak to the and another note is you know I've had multiple generations in this community so I I appreciate you know what this community offers and and and you know some of these nice buildings but being in the industry of real estate I know that that buildings you know they they actually become hazardous and and sometimes it's an invisible hazard and I think you know whether it's the the physical structure or the air quality whatever it may be you know it could lead to some problems down the road and I think that this particular building is heading in that direction and I know that if John could find a solution for this he really has been in and out he's communicated with myself and my colleagues and in my business and you know he really has made changes he's made improvements but I trust that if he feels that it's become too much of a burden that he's he's kind of he's he's turned over every stone looking for solutions for this property so to the 262 Main Street I think that it it has lived its life on on Main Street and I think that it would probably be in the best interest of our community that this fatigued facility is removed that's my opinion and that's my public comment thank you thank you for your comment let's see there's it looks like a hill to green bomb has a hand raised to me it's heartbreaking to see this building go because it's been always been one of my favorite ones and I knew it was important in the Irish history of this town but I just didn't have a chance to do as much research in the archives as Ben did um I restored a lot of houses with my husband over the years and even my own house which was sitting on four stones right on Montague Road they were able to put dollies under it and pick it up by the timbers and we replaced every sills we have replaced the sills and and put my house on the new foundation other houses replaced the foundation on on easily 10 or 12 different houses so it's hard for me to believe that this one would be so expensive to repair my guess is that the old timers that knew how to do these jobs are no longer with us so to me I would love to have it saved but and some heartbreaking story and we always knew it as the Garvey house over the years so if there were a way of saving it and finding the money to do what I wish it would but it doesn't look possible I guess they literally just let it go too long hey thank you for your comment um are there any other members of the public who would like to speak okay um then uh let us have a motion to close the public hearing I make a motion to close the public hearing thank you second all right thank you um if you are in favor uh please uh please so say Eddie hi Jan yes Pat yes Robin yes okay yes for me too so uh so we'll now um move to the standards for designation as a significant structure and um let's see we've already we've already determined that the structure is in a commonwealth of massachusetts district but not international register district or is not and is not a property on the national register so then for historical importance we'll look at these criteria once again if the building has character interest or value as part of the development heritage or cultural characteristics of the town of Amherst the commonwealth of massachusetts or the nation is the site of an historic event is identified with a person or group of persons who had some influence on society or exemplifies the cultural political economic social or historic heritage of the community I'm saying yes I'm say I'm going to say yes too I'm I'm also saying yes a little bit of every one of those things apply I would say 4103 is the most apt once again because to owners of the factories um historic heritage in terms of the structure social heritage in terms of that strata of society building houses along main street um I mean it kind of fits everything whereas the 001 and 02 is more specific that I don't think it really fits occurring yeah I 4100 I also think it fits that one so we can move on to architectural importance that the structure portrays the environment of a group of people in an era of history characterized by a distinctive architectural style where embodies those distinguishing characteristics of an architectural type or is the work of an architect master builder or craftsman whose individual work has influenced the development of the town or contains elements of architectural design detail materials or craftsmanship which represents a significant innovation yes yes yes yes um maybe not one one two because we don't know who the architect was but otherwise and I mean significant innovate innovation it just depends on when that that style was built there but certainly the first two yeah okay for geographic importance the site is part of or related to a square park or other distinctive area the structure as to its unique location or physical characteristics represents an established and familiar visual feature of the neighborhood village center or the community as a whole I would say held up to 21 yep yep yes yes agree okay um so let's see um so shall we uh it meets the criteria of significance shall we move a have a motion for disposition of the application for a demolition permit I need to be the one to go on the record but I always make the motions was there any discussion oh we could do that after the motions may well if yeah if you want to discuss first that's fine well I would uh ask for discussion on the idea of a condition of looking into the possibility of any salvage you know we can put that in the motion yeah I would I would agree with that Robin there's certainly a lot of the house has been stripped of importance but there certainly are our features that could be salvaged and repurposed I was really taken with the doors in the interior they're too small to be useful if they need to make a code of any kind but but if somebody's restoring a historic home and wants closet doors or something they would wear some of them right yeah yeah okay well um I can take a stab if you want if we're ready yeah okay um so 462 Main Street has been determined by historical commission to meet all three criteria of historical architectural and geographic importance that therefore is a significant building however based upon its current conditions and the efforts of the owner the best efforts of the owner to save it it seems to be in too poor a condition to warrant further investment the historical commission would like to add a condition to approval of the demolition request that every effort be made to salvage and repurpose any features that remain in good condition is that close very good Jen that's really a second it's hard to remember where you started when you get all right yeah yeah I'll just say I agree this is sort of a heartbreaking circumstance and I think so I appreciate everything Mr Robleski has done for this building including his attempts to interest others in it which would you know if if the commission were to invoke a demolition delay I mean that that would be the thing we would be asking you to do but you've already done it so he's been through this process with us before he knew well prepared you know once those front windows I'll take them you're only a single pain I know but you know they don't have to be in a regular house they're just wonderful I'd build a garden house or something just to use um um yeah I you know I hope I don't go in the newspaper as being the commission member who called for demolition of a gorgeous 19th century building on Main Street God it's my worst nightmare but one can I make one comment about you know using like I put in my letter there if I did this next door where there was an old barn that again I was going to repurpose the three-storey barn and turn it into a two or three rental units and ran into the same issue there with the upper beams were really shot as well as the lower carrying beams but I did save stones from the foundation of that barn and made a stone retaining wall at 22 High Street made a sitting bench out of some of the wider stones that's why I was thinking about what I could use the other day and I put that in my letter that those capstones are really beautiful to use for sitting benches around the new property and I think that way people can kind of connect with the past you know and have something that they can use type thing and and even for some of the bigger stones there and some of those flat stones using them as a retaining area for some of the slopes I have there I just I like that idea I don't know how you people say it no it sounds pretty good and the glass door knobs I like the glass door knobs yeah those are the ones Robin wants maybe does a Jones library have something been that has some period material like that where they could actually have them on display or something yeah and their current current and the current special collection space it's spaces that pretty limited there but it's definitely it would be worth reaching out or the historical society society yeah yeah but yeah I was also thinking about the salvage stores or you know what I've been into where they're just you know fabulous bins and bins of them so let's go ahead and conclude the vote all in favor let's see Robin hi Hedy hi Pat hi Jan sadly yes and yes with grief I vote aye um I appreciate that um and I I hope you appreciate that I really I really wanted to save it I say that it is what it is and things change so but we saw the evidence and work you've put into it reach in not too long ago so we can appreciate that yeah thank you thank you for you know thank you for working so hard on this uh with us and and on your own and uh we wish you success thank you they appreciate your time and your volunteering for sure I know I was on a building committee as I mentioned about the garage there for the town of Waiteley and restoring a town hall there and spent a lot of hours but you know it's for a good reason and a good purpose and appreciate your time thank you thank you thank you um so next on our agenda is uh Jones Library Historic Preservation Restriction so are we yeah yeah John thanks I'm sorry yes yeah yeah you are you're all set um we will uh I'll follow up with the building department um and and authorize the approval of the demolition um as long as you meet your meeting the other building code um requirements and all that so I'll transmit I'll transmit that and uh keep you in the loop as well in terms of the salvage requirement what how does that get followed up on so um that that I see is more of a uh a strong strong recommendation by the historical commission to John but it wouldn't necessarily impact the demolition permit itself yeah I think we're on the same page with that so okay yeah thank you thank you yeah and if if we can be any help like whether it's you know me doing a little bit of legwork on it or if you want to reach out to the historical commission to help find the right salvage yard or store or any any assistance and yeah any assistance we can offer we're happy to help with that so appreciate that thank you good night now thank you uh okay uh the library historic preservation restriction do um do folks need a break or do you want to just want to check in how we're doing how much how much longer do we expect this to go well uh so we have could could go all night if we want yeah um eight a glass of wine if that's the case um so let me yeah we still have a lot on on our agenda and in fact oh good yeah we've already closed our public hearing so we don't have to do that but we have to open the public meeting um so preservation restriction is probably something we want to get to tonight um then civil war tablet site visit west cemetery headstone restoration planning is that how time urgent um so the headstone restoration planning that could wait we talked about that at the site visit I need to talk with the accounting department to figure out how to craft the rfp so I don't really have any updates on that um I think that there is some I there is some urgency to the Jones Library historic preservation restriction I know Nate's been working on that on that for a while um I actually I really don't know much about where that process um but Nate Nate's at the planning board meeting right now so he wasn't able to come but um I also would love if we could approve the minute so I can finally post online um so let's see it's um 10 minutes to nine um shall we take a quick break and then continue till about 9 30 okay sure yeah all right so three minutes okay we'll be back then I uh I put my historic picture of the town hall up to challenge you I love it Robin it looks great it looks great it's look great that you both have you know I found it in the um when I was looking at the sandborn maps a couple meetings ago all right the national archives I just put in plugged in Amherst and saw what came up that's convenient are those telegram lines in the back behind you or the yeah I'm not sure if it's electric or not but how what date is that photo do you know I don't remember I have to look it up again um Ben would um are you has Nate sort of briefed you on the preservation restrictions yeah a little bit um and you you all might know more than I do but my understanding is that they received um CPA funds so and part of that agreement is um accepting a preservation restriction on the property and I know Nate Nate's been working on it over the past many years um three two three years at this point and has had a lot of back and forth with the state with the Jones library um but it's finally at a point now where um and I guess there was also some uncertainty whether the local historic commission needs to accept it or sign off but um you mean the you mean the Amherst historical commission yeah okay and not the district commission not the district no um but that was clarified and there is a page here for the look the Amherst historical commission to approve of the restriction yeah it's not current as to its membership no no so it's a 40 page document um yeah goes into a lot of detail about the um different activities that are allowed these standards for review uh enforcement um yeah I can't speak to the all the details contained within here um um I um um I can call out a few things yeah that I think are sort of the meat of it uh or um have some nuance to it that we should probably understand if you don't mind yeah absolutely yeah are these this this is an existing restriction no it's one that we need to um um it hasn't been executed yet oh but it's from quite a while ago yeah it takes a long time to get these things done I've been through this at the Dickinson Museum and it took it took two or three years to get it done oh okay I just assumed it was already uh it was already in place yeah it ideally it would have been but you can see 2017 2018 I mean yeah yeah yeah um so so it's an agreement between between the library and the town of Amherst and we're the we're kind of the I guess executive committee that acts on behalf of the town in this instance and um so a couple of things you know I'll just start on maybe page three with the purpose just to note that the agreement assures that the features and characteristics that embody the architectural historic and cultural significance of the exterior of the building will be forever retained and maintained substantially in their current condition so this is this um it impacts the exterior appearance and condition of the original part of the library jay right right um except it doesn't really say that and when I saw this I was concerned that this could be used to block the new construction you know I wish I had highlighted there is a let's see I thought there was a a little kind of an illusion to what it covered somewhere in here uh but I didn't highlight it um which so fast yeah um on the first page well I'm not sure if this covers it or not but in the in the um the first whereas paragraph mm-hmm owner of real property 43 amney street described on a deed dated october 6 1925 uh property is improved by a building constructed in 1927 28 um which property in which building are described more particularly in exhibit a so let me see um and I'm thinking exhibit a is on page 20 so that's the property the period of significance of the jones library is 1928 to 1992 prior to the construction of the new addition so that's the description of what is covered in this preservation restriction so help to clarify yes that's very helpful jane 1993 edition obscures the majority of the original north and west of the stars okay but wait a minute the period of significance okay but someone could still use that to argue against the current plans for building right could i just ask a question um is is this drawn up by legal representation of the library or the town or the commonwealth who who um who's the author of the historic commission the mass historic mission i think a lot a lot of the work has been naked in in conjunction with the mass historic commission so our comments might be taken with some importance i'm sorry pat could you well if you know if we that our comments might have some importance for for some clarification or revision and i i'm agreeing with jan that that um reference to the addition doesn't it talks about obscuring the original architecture but it doesn't say this isn't included as part of the significance it it does say that it does say that the that the 1993 edition is not covered by this preservation restriction it more than just the sentence that it obscures the majority we should actually say that it's because it says that it's until 92 so this is a significant part is up until 92 right but but i i think this sentence the last sentence in that paragraph might best be say that 1993 edition is is not included in the significance as it obscures the majority of the original north and west bank you know you can but but to say specifically that it's not included in the it's significant the doesn't say that it says the period of significance of the jones library is 1928 to 1992 prior to construction of the new edition right that's straightforward that's straightforward but when they add this edition it's it's it's it's critiquing it but it doesn't say so clearly that the addition is not considered significant all right yeah well that's not concerns me i'm just worried that um any change to the appearance of the original whether it has a section a new section added behind the changes the look of the side or the height or anything could be considered hurting the original design by having something else around it or you know i did add to it because i mean i'm only saying that because i'm getting the sense that this town is really going to fight this there are certain people in this town they're going to fight this tooth and nail i mean they've gone to great links already and i don't want to provide any fuel for the fire well there's the the preservation restriction agreement outlines procedures for for approving or disallowing changes and so i i can continue to go through some of the highlights and call out some of that language for you if if that would help okay sorry to extend this no it's just i i i've worked with these kinds of things before and and it's important to do an exclusion not just a critique um and then any you know any any future building would would reflect the significance of the architecture of the original piece so i i'm not nitpicking i just know that exactly what tan is saying that it could be used if it's not so specific it could be used as a you know as a as a powerpoint why shouldn't do the new building new addition so um let me ask ben ben what is the purpose of what what are we doing tonight what is the purpose of this discussion um i think nate was just he finally got it to a point where it was he had gotten all the changes um approved by the the state a lot of like just copy editing issues and finally it got to his desk and it was the next step was approval by the historical commission um i think it's totally fine for us to kind of have a list of questions for nate and under understand the document better i mean it's 40 pages it's really dense you know we had a long hearing and a lot of other material to get to tonight so i i wasn't fully expecting everyone to have like nitpicked the whole thing apart um but i think maybe if we could uh be be prepared maybe next meeting to um weigh in uh on it one player can meet with us and if we had a time to talk to nate about it yeah yeah exactly no i feel bad because i not nate is the truly the author so like i just can't i can't and i don't mean to nitpick it because i i didn't i i didn't read it with the eye to what we're being asked to do yeah and so if you know i will i will do that but i i just know that that you can't leave interpretation yeah to to those who would use it um in in a way not intended can i ask a question just a procedural question about this concern about being used against the i guess what i'm what i'm trying to ask is um if someone if a citizen has an objection based on what's in the document who's the arbiter of whether the citizen is correct in their interpretation of it i believe that would be the massachusetts historical commission and does and the massachusetts historical commission do they help write this document is this written by the town the town and consultation with the historical commission okay we've already seen the library though what were they called the friends of or something library people send all this documentation to the mass historical commission trying to get them to stop things i mean this has been going on for no i understand that on i guess my i mean my i asked the question because of my assumption would be if the mass historical commission is involved in the writing and the approval of the document that those would be pretty close eyes on it yeah it's just that if they if they don't have um if they don't have skin in the game to have a new building they're going to write it um in a in a way that perhaps could be taken or the other and then they end up well we wrote this and they're right it doesn't work and so no you can't do that you know what i mean i'm going to so i'm going to suggest that we table this and and and i'll make a comment that um that this particular preservation restriction actually applied to a previous project so i'm not sure it's appropriate for us to try to engineer it for any current circumstance i mean i understand the the i understand that interest um but i think we're we are thinking about a previous event what was that event chain it predates me it was um the award of community preservation act funds to uh to the jones library for a previous project so just as an effort i mean this is neither here nor there but um i've been involved at the digginson museum in exactly the same process with three preservation restrictions so i'm a little familiar with it but i think we should probably wait uh to take this up when they can join us agreed i i agree with that and i will read it with a different eye between now and our next meeting okay all right um so let's see uh all right we agreed to 20 more minutes what's the most urgent thing on here um yeah we love street don't we need to talk about east pleasant street can we get any information from snow about those trees we talked about that yeah chris uh met with alan on tuesday monday i was not able to join chris has not provided i've i've not been given any i gotta i gotta brief summary of the meeting just over the phone but chris was gonna put put something in in writing uh i guess there's alan i think said there was only two trees that could um likely be saved i think it was the two closest uh one one east pleasant um upon the cemetery side of the fence and but was uh in his opinion thought that the remainder would be um either you know damaged through the construction process um or just yeah kind of not not very stable at this point that's only if the planning commission grants the five foot setback instead of the 20 foot setback i mean maybe if they weren't granting this this special condition the trees wouldn't be damaged so i mean we need to consider all the options right yeah yeah certainly um so that's that's one of the um special permits that the project is requesting is the setback from the from the cemetery yeah and i mean that was the concern when we were there it's just gonna be too darn close so we will need more information to consider this thoroughly so why don't we table this one also i see ask a further question i see that um sorry if if chris could further you know return to that question and say not only what trees are likely to be saved with the fact that setback but could more be saved if it were returned to the the 20 foot setback that's the town requirement right certainly yeah i will say i think um they might uh yeah i guess i should there might be something with the because it's a non a nonconformity with the with the existing buildings there because the existing buildings are up close against the cemetery yeah but they're asking for an exception so you know yeah so anyway yes i think you're able to use the same footprint ban because of the existing building they're asking for that building they're coming closer yeah exactly so yeah i will i will get um more information okay thank you so i i see that um susanna faving must prat is um a participant and is interested in uh item number seven zoning in the bl district so um why don't we at least open that conversation yeah and then we'll need to we'll need to include it on another agenda um so if we could have i don't know maybe five or ten minutes on that and then see if we can approve the minutes yeah and see about public comment sounds good okay um so um yeah i guess i'm happy to uh just speak to the bl and then um susanna if you'd like to comment we can bring you in as well to this conversation but the uh the business limited district there's maybe six bl districts in um in in all of amherst there's three in the center of town and really two that are of concern um in the neck in kind of the as far as the town council is concerned with their interest in in um zoning proposals so the the two bl districts are um on triangle street kind of where primos pizza and there's two east eastampton greenfield savings bank or their td bank um kind of that area and then the other bl district extends from uh brugers at coles lane all the way to halux street um and so the uh part of the the town council has um been interested in kind of thinking about uh zoning zoning changes to that area um in an effort to kind of promote higher density and the ability to actually build residential there because right now it's prohibitive uh to build residential units because of kind of some nuanced issues with the additional lot area required for every residential unit um and so we've been um um kind of exploring ideas with the planning board and the crc about ways to um promote density and all but also keeping the bl as a as a as it's intended as a transition zone from the business general district which allows five story buildings down to the uh residential general district um which you know three story buildings and so the idea with the bl district is that it's kind of a transition zone to from uh downtown amherst to the surrounding residential areas so um i'm not sure if uh susanna wants to kind of talk about her her proposal um but i guess the the interest the historical commission might have in the the uh this kind of discussion is that the some of the buildings and the bl the long coles to halux are um you know historic in in terms of kind of their architecture and uh you know i'm not sure of all the people who have lived there but certainly architecturally and geographically important it's there are a lot of old large single family homes that have been converted into uh businesses so um i think that's kind of the topic and so we can it's kind of it's it's it's the planning department we have many uh zoning priorities that we've been given demolition delay included but also you know inclusionary zoning mixed use buildings accessory dwelling units uh flood maps a whole host of things that we're working on right now and the bl overlay is just uh one of those proposals um and you know i expect it might not be until july until the i guess the next step is the planning board and crc to continue to review it but so i think we're at a pretty preliminary stage at this point okay um we may have some more questions for you about process and where the historical commission fits in um but i i do wonder if um if susanna if you are here if you'd like to make any comments about the material you've sent us you can raise your hand if you would like to comment there we go okay hi susanna um you should be able to talk now okay good thank you very much for giving me a moment uh to talk to you today i don't think this is as urgent maybe as some of your other items but um i wanted you to be aware of it because i think it's likely to come back to you for discussion at some point and i'm really hoping that maybe there's a way that you all could register some of your thoughts about this so it's not just from coleslain to hallock it's from coleslain to mclellan it's two blocks and this these are the blocks where henny and bakery is and hair by harlow and a bunch of professional offices and it includes um what we think of as the silverscape building it's now amherst laser and skin care that's in the second block and these are all 19th century buildings um and i feel that they are kind of a piece they give a good sense of uh what the town looked like in the middle of the 19th century and they make a very nice street edge along kendrick park that is a way of referring to the historical neighborhood behind y'all there you go some pictures um the first block the block that henny ends is in is all owned by one developer and the second block there are three houses and they're currently owned i believe by three different people so the first block is maybe in more jeopardy because the proposal from the planning department would encourage tearing down that whole block and putting up one monolithic building uh the length of the block that could be three or some people are arguing for four stories the bl is seen as transitional but that doesn't necessarily mean transitional in height it means transitional i think in use in that these are sort of residential buildings that have businesses and services in them um and i would like to see if there could be a way to save the historic buildings and if the town feels that greater density is needed to do that building behind these older buildings rather than taking the buildings down and building something taller in the front along the street and then um stepping down on the back of a lot to the current zoning for that for that area so i have um sent well i worked with pam rooney who's gotten much better drawing skills than i to write up a sort of vision our thoughts about this block and these two blocks and how they might um they might work and she's done some sketches that show the concept of doing some building behind i mean i a lot of these buildings have had later additions stuck onto them and i would have no problem with those coming off and somebody could do something more coherent with the back of the blocks of course they all offer parking now for their tenants and their businesses and so i think the town needs to think about whether what's whether it's more important to have more density or more parking but that's not my my issue my issue is can we save these historic buildings um what else can i tell you oh um so more recently i wrote a letter to you to the powers that be including the historical commission saying that what i think is important is that the planning department put on their best planning hats and try to come up with another option their option right now is to tear these buildings down well essentially to incentivize tearing these buildings down and putting up three or four stories along with street edge and i would like them to present another proposal which would be what could we do if we kept the historic buildings and then developed the back of the lots and i'm hoping that you all would think about that and if you feel that that's worth getting the planning department to work on that you would use your influence to second that notion then we would have some comparison and then i think the council would be in a much better position to make a decision so that's what i have to say and um i'd be happy to take your questions thank you susanna for bringing this up um well we know one member of the planning department pretty well yeah this i guess i don't know i guess ben i if you don't mind me putting you on the spot um and of course you can certainly mind um is the planning department considering other options or is there a kind of a yeah so really preferred uh yeah so we this has been a um an ongoing conversation we we received like all these other zoning amendments we received a directive from town council you know town council uh telling paul bakerman paul bakerman telling chris and then it gets to us um to the the initial ask of town council was for the planning department to explore it's kind of nuance but explore removing this pesky little footnote that is um called footnote b that's in the zoning bylaw and footnote b is kind of what is restricting residential development in the bl right now because you you are required to have you know a certain additional lot area per dwelling unit so you need a lot of lot area to add dwelling units to the in the bl so that's like a it's a density or or it's a restrict it's a restriction on density essentially as it is now so we were asked to look into removing that check on density in the bl and what when we studied that we determined that actually if you remove footnote b it would it would it might go too far it would it would you could build a lot of residential buildings in the bl especially as you start combining lots together so our we kind of pivoted at that point to instead of just looking at this footnote b option and developing a kind of new overlay district on top of the bl and so that's like we we've we've pitched that idea to the planning board and crc at this point and there's definitely a lot of more questions than answers because it's it's kind of a it's a pretty big change to kind of add an entire new overlay onto a district so the idea is still kind of in the early stages and I think there's some definitely opportunity to still explore other options you know we we never nothing in our proposal as it is as it stands now like it encourages the removal of the buildings more than that opportunity exists now we're we're just allowing her bigger I guess higher density in the in the bl to be built with you know mixed use promoting mixed use with you know commercial and retail on the bottom floors with office and residential on the second and third floors so but I think there's you know there's opportunities to possibly introduce some sort of design guidelines which might come down the road or uh yeah this kind of reminds me of the whole form-based zoning discussion from some years ago I can see how you know the encouragement of mixed use with businesses on first stories and residential above could incentivize developers to you know want to maximize um lot coverage by building big you know big buildings yeah well it's like 11 east pleasant where they want to get a variance on the back lot line on the set back on the street on the sides they're they're they're almost zero lot line yet because they're trying to get every square inch out of a small piece of property and that's going to happen over and over and every time it's granted it sets a precedent exactly right yeah the streetscape in those two blocks along the the greens ward it is important to Amherst yes it is it's very important to Amherst and and so I I would hope um that those buildings would you know anyone selling it for though that purpose that it would come to this commission to be able to weigh in on the importance of the streetscape I mean in the end what can we do except if somebody wants to demolish something all we can do is delay for a year yeah yeah but but personally I think that streetscape is important for Amherst I do too and I think if you try taking that side of the street and turning it into the east side of the street you have a revolution in town absolutely and and I I I feel very strongly that that streetscape should not be changed you know and it it increases in significance with the development of Kendrick park as a park yeah right right um I just want to make the point that that the local historic district is it is teeth yeah you're right that whole streetscape can be saved but it takes time yeah but you mean turn it into a local historic district yeah yeah that would be the card to play yeah right this is very informative maybe we should start the process that's right we have a good job to do no but I mean it's a really good point it takes time and if there's a feeling of threat it really is something that the process should be started for it because if you wait until um you know things are closer to the wrecking ball you don't have enough time yeah so it's really really yeah that would be really really urgent because the teeth we have right now is a demolition delay and we can use that time to create a local historic district yeah we've talked about this before in theory but we haven't talked about it in practice right um where where does it start it starts with us coming up with a narrative to put on some forums or what do we do there's a there's a study committee that's like somehow initiated yeah a lot of the information that needs to be developed by the study commission already exists because of the good work of people like Susanna and Susanna you've been through this process before with I have been I don't know if you can you still hear me yes we can yeah I worked on the uh north prospect Lincoln sunset the local historic district and we talked about those blocks and we were pretty well told that if we went there we would have the developers trying to kill the whole district I remember that yeah so we chickened out we didn't do it and now you know we're sort of paying the price but um it took years to to work up that district that was a big district it was over 200 properties yeah so we have an agenda item here Susanna thanks thanks to your um bringing this to our attention tonight um I I feel that I feel very strongly about preserving the streetscape and it sounds like our commission does too so you know development can happen in different ways it doesn't have to happen at the street it can it can happen behind preserving the streetscape as you suggested so then we have an agenda item here yeah I mean what we need is one or two people on the commission to spear head it because I mean as Jane and I know these things just meeting after meeting after meeting we don't get very far I mean look at the bylaws and some of the other things it takes forever and for instance the only way the writer's walk is happening is because I have been a really irritating pain in the neck to town hall you know they are so sick of me but it's hard to get this stuff through so we really need to have a couple people who are going to take this on and push and not stop because otherwise it won't be done in time I will join with others of you and be fervent about this fervent I love that word fantastic can I volunteer heading I'm happy to be involved I I I'm very struck at this moment in time having been on the commission for two years now of how how diligent we all are being but I think we are at an incredibly pivotal time in the town of Amherst I'm very concerned that we are about to lose not just affordable housing but also the integrity of historic viewsheds and and streetscape and buildings to things that are really soulless and I think a lot of people have moved to Amherst or have grown to love Amherst for the things that are there and mourn the things that have mostly the things that have gone like the carriage shops but we still have the mural reinvigorated so I you know just from a very very much a newcomer's perspective I think if we can go with the teeth as Robin says then then we should because we're going to need a good set of a good set of chompers but it sounds like we have a focus and a goal if we can make that a historic district yes a local historic district yeah I will say I will say too I mean the uh well I'll say two things one the the Triangles Street area is I would venture not considered historic it's you know one story mid 20th century building so I think if speaking for planning department or town council like I think that's an area that could certainly see greater density it's right up the you know gateway to the university it's it's already changed yeah so that could you know be viewed as a trade off resource but um but I wanted to mention is I think you know we we already have a local historic district commission in place and two you know very well established historic districts already so I think that infrastructure exists which is good because I you know getting a new commission up and running getting all that going is a lot of work but because the commission exists and I guess uh the this area actually abuts the border of the north prospect Lincoln's unset district so it would it could either be an expansion of an existing district or a um new one all and in itself I'm not sure of the nuances of that but um well there was a seat open on that local historic commission district commission is it filled uh no it's not okay because I was approaching I thought it was a conflict of interest with the historical commission but you know we do need somebody on there I mean we need to have a full commission because there's going to be work involved if this is going through going forward now we also had Nate Maloy as our liaison working with us on the uh Lincoln sunset one uh huh great you know I think you need so it sounds like there are two or three different um approaches to this one is the you know tracking and supporting the vision of a different kind of overlay the other is um creating a local historic district um and probably for both of these um we need to we probably need to talk with at least with Chris but we'd talk with Paul also about our interest they've both been copied on my stuff so this will not be news to them I will say if you if you go to protecting the edge of Kendrick Park go all the way up because the next block has the original um St. Bridget's church it has another Putnam house um Roswell Putnam house there's some good stuff and that's in the RN zone it's not in the BL so it's not under threat from this particular zoning amendment but it might as well all get protected because somebody's going to get some ideas about I thought the church was north of Colesley no there's the original church is I'm talking about going further north go go on north yeah there it is right there that's an old church I used to be a church oh oh I didn't know that okay the church was a sort of up above it but that's what's left of it wow okay yeah that's a good point Susanna to do the whole strip up to the end yeah that's that's part of that streetscape yeah so that's north of McClellan yes right correct all the way to what does it become north pleasant then yeah yeah and I mean I guess I'm just kind of thinking out loud too uh an expansion of the local historic district that doesn't preclude you know new three-story buildings it just means that the local historic district will have full authority to describe where the building is placed how it looks you know how far it's set back how it matches to be modified right yeah yeah so um it's not going to necessarily uh I mean it's completely you know set in stone exactly how it appears now just means that there will be a commission that has you know a lot of teeth to dictate exactly what what's taken down and what's what replaces it or what changes are made so well I say uh let's move forward with that let's find out exactly what has to be done talk to the current local historic district commission find out what we need to how we need to start and maybe we a couple of us should go talk to chris and paul and let him know you know yeah I you know I think it might be a good idea to have a joint meeting of the historical commission and a local historic district commission that's a good idea yeah yeah I would make my life easier one night three a week one week yeah yeah yeah jane and I think it's a good goal you know whatever I can do to help let me know okay thank you yeah very well you may regret that well thanks thanks so much susanna really well you've given me new hope thank you for listening and for being so um on board with the whole idea of trying to save those buildings if I can put it put in a plug to susanna there's uh two openings on this commission and one opening local historic district yeah I wanted to say hey why don't you join this committee we can work together well I don't know if I can take that on I'm yeah almost 80 years old and I have two little grandchildren who need me two days a week and it's probably more than I could do but but I will help you save these these buildings anyway well you got inspired up that's for sure legitimately well that's wonderful okay thank you so much fantastic thank you thank you okay it's now nine almost 945 do we have the stomach to approve eight sets of minutes yes but can we first say that we have formed an ad hoc subcommittee here for the lhd have we pettie and pad yeah okay okay can we formalize that into the minutes and then they can start making some inquiries yep anybody else joining us I'll help but I don't want to be the leader on this one okay we'll we'll be go yeah I'll help but I fear that if I take on too much I'll disappoint because my workload is pretty heavy and robin can advise she has the most recent knowledge of the ins and outs of stuff no we've got we've got a team we've got an ad hoc committee okay and one of you just needs to spearhead things so that we keep moving and reminding us and kicking us and stuff well headie and I will figure that out she's probably more academically knowledgeable about the stuff that I am but my spirit is it's a long time since I've nominated anything to a local historic district but I'll work with you pat and I'm riding a bicycle headie all we need pat is somebody to be a pain in the pot so if you want if you can do that I can do that you're elected by acclimation and I think that he can do that too um I I'm reminded that Chris Kelly is is leaving his position oh but I do have to see I do this personal email now so yes so maybe he can join our commission ever isn't he isn't he fairly local then southern falls I think yeah oh I'll rent him a room so he can claim to be a terrific thank you very much pat and headie well I I am all of a sudden very passionate about this I'm passionate about amorous historical heritage and so you know when I look at that streetscape to think that it might be threatened yeah yeah but we had to make and we had to make some hard choices today too yeah yeah don't call yourself a newcomer you've been on the commission two years it was in the first meeting I ever went to I took on the rider's walk so just plunge in two years you're not new anymore you have to we have to own it I've been here 30 years yeah we'll we'll we'll find the medium medium to that headie yeah I'm just interested in looking for teeth you know right now I agree with you I'm very frustrated you know a terrible shame yeah that streetscape was different we've got eight sets of minutes oh um does anyone have any objections to any of them I revised them all so I have no objection right I have no objections because I've read them all no good enough all right so shall we uh can someone make a motion to accept accept the minutes from fill it in Ben what are the dates I don't have a man uh January 22nd 2020 January 27th 21 October 19th 20 December 22nd yeah 10th 21 June 24th 2020 July 22nd 2020 and August 26th 2020 so I second move you seconded okay I second all right so um let us uh all in favor Jan yes Pat yes Robin yes headie yes Jane yes all right well done all right then uh because it's on the agenda we must open the meeting for public comment so if there's anyone who has made it this far made it this far and would like to speak uh we are very very happy and willing to take your comment okay seeing none um there's tell the say oh held up please very quickly I just want to say that that streetscape was left out of the local historic district because of the fear that they would lose the whole thing if the land that was owned by those owners was included that's all I wanted to say yep we remember that was the fear that they lose everything and so they were willing to give up the streetscape but I'm so glad I've been trying to save it up ever since so I'm glad you're joining our crew Gilda we've got openings on the historical commission well you know what nobody wants to go I applied actually and I could turn down but pause and so I don't want to go through that again and you know who would be really good is my son who owns every other building in between the other developers there so here's your stop gap there to keep the the lots from being aggregated for a big project here because because I won't mention a name but a certain one is knocking on his door every day and he's knocking on my cousin Margie Levinson's door every day wants to buy her out in the little green cake they he he told me that he wants to put up a one east pleasant street on his side of street I'm not going to mention names but it's one of two people okay and so we're trying real hard we have the citizen with a community for better planning the cpp and we've been very active I got recruited by the cladistry people to help them and and Susanna has been very active in that Susanna wrote all the articles on Potom for the Wikipedia if you like I haven't checked it out by chance doing the North Amherst library stuff and she wrote the articles that's her specialty Roswell feels that no so she would be a real asset but no I think I think that you would do a lot to ask my son because he knows about construction and he's he's done some nice work I think the building the yellow building that you see on halex street is his he put that new addition on it looks like it was always there I sold my house too I mean yeah he's got to go to honka that's great to save it well he has to apply with the citizen's interest I don't think he will I think he has to be recruited he's not that kind of person it's gonna stick his neck off well you can recruit him for us we've been we've sort of given him the hint that he a lot too but I might want to ask Margie lovinson right I don't know what she knows about old houses but she's in the butter there great all right thanks so much thank you yeah thank you I want to keep you up any later we're getting punchy so yeah I gotta figure out what I gotta write of all this stuff too you gotta figure out a way and that demolition bylaw that houses like the garvey house don't get that far gone and I don't know how you do that right I couldn't agree with you more yeah we've talked about that for years and have had ideas well no I have to tell you the north Hadley was a slum three of the houses that we bought there were condemned and we brought that William we brought back that whole neighborhood there in north Hadley around with the broom little broom village most that was the center of the bloom making industry in the mid-19th century and the broom machinery was made also in little mills along the bell river so well you can get pretty bad thank you um so let's see uh are there any unanticipated items or any final announcements and then do we need to set a next meeting date we've been trying to do the third Wednesday is that right yeah that would be the third Wednesday in June yeah I'm just looking at my calendar I have it marked for the 16th yeah okay I really like having the consistency yeah great yeah 16th at 6 30 okay I haven't uh I don't think there's any I haven't heard of any demolition applications at this point so you never know um so it would be great if we could have a meeting without any hearings and just be able to get get down to basics yeah exactly so yeah uh what's what's happening with the bylaw where is it yeah good question so that was um that was taken up it was supposed to be taken up by the planning board and and CRC last week and then at literally at both meetings they ran out of time and I I had maybe like two minutes to talk to the planning board about it and it was similar to this it was like 9 30 10 o'clock at night and they didn't really offer any feedback so the the process where it is now it's like we planning board and CRC discuss it they give us some initial feedback and then at a certain point they say we're we're kind of done with this at this point we're send it to town council and then town council then refers it back to the planning board and CRC they hold like a joint hearing um to actually formalize their recommendation so what we're doing now having these initial conversations with them is to kind of make sure that once we get to the actual public hearing that there's no major surprises and we already have their support um so I let's see I think on Tuesday the 25th next week at um I hopefully will actually be able to present to the CRC and get their feedback so that's kind of the next step but it's similar to the BL overlay like it's it's probably going to be like another few weeks to a month of like kind of these discussions until it's ultimately set to town council okay through the easier it'll be for some of these things we're dealing with right now yeah Robin you have your hand raised I have one last item I'm sorry uh and maybe that we'll I'll ask the question to Ben first this is around a grant application for funds for the plant survey part of the mill river historic walk proposal then do you think that we should just skip the June 1st deadline and go to the October 1st deadline at this point um that's kind of what I'm leaning towards personally because right yeah I mean I think so too we need a letter of endorsement from the historic commission and we haven't even talked about it June is right around the corner and from what your email said today yeah okay we'll go with October 1st never mind folks we'll talk about it next time okay hey shall we turn yes that's Jen I'm moving I second second oh there's no going back on that so we're done is a very beefy meeting and uh thanks for hanging in there we got a lot done but we did it's forward to pat and hey I want to hear what happens all right well we're going to need some guidance in this I am but I'm fervent as I said so we'll move forward okay bye everybody thank you good night see you guys thanks Jen bye