 Welcome to the Martin E. Siegel Theatre Center here at the Graduate Center CUNY and to prelude 21 start making sense It's our annual theatre performance fest celebrating the work of New York theatre artists of ensembles and it's hard enough in normal times to create work for the stage and for Spaces inside and outside, but in the time of corona we all are faced with exceptional challenges and We are here to celebrate again the extraordinary achievements that come out of the New York Theatre community It is time I think and we feel to start making sense to ask questions Why are we making theater, but also how are we producing it and and for whom and this is a great investigation again into the Mechanics of making art in New York City and we also invited theater ensembles from around the US from Detroit and Cincinnati, St. Louis and Philadelphia New Orleans to join us and This will be extraordinary look into what is on the minds of artists right now We also have a many panel discussions. We have an award which we're giving out to honor Outstanding members of the New York Theatre community So I would like you to join in and get an insight of what is happening Welcome everybody here at the Martin E. Siegel Theatre Center the Graduate Center CUNY at preload festival 21 It's a day two and we are really thrilled that The festival got off to such a good start yesterday Where we and had our first discussions and presentations with artists curators talked about what it means to create work What has changed what hasn't and what should and we had our first live performance about Hildegard a fun bing and and Daisy put that out and today we talked with her afterwards for all our viewers I think 13 works are already streaming ready online You can go whenever you want and then each day of the week at seven o'clock is a live performance today We have our Chain curating number two We have we ask curators to nominate one artist and the next curator and this curator nominated one artist and the next Curator so really this is a an incredible experiment. We did and I'm stunned by the results. It's truly Open experiment a radical one. We think J. Wegman helped us, you know to come out business idea and we want to thank him and everybody And today we have a Merriam with us Ty, Stefa, Declan and Mora So welcome. Where are you guys right now and to tell us a little bit who you are and what you do? Merriam, maybe you start sure. Hi everybody. I'm so happy to be here. I Am I am dialing in from London? I'm here for a few days. I normally live on Lenape land Also called Brooklyn, New York That's that's where I live, but I'm here for a couple of days Fantastic and this is also a good moment to do an acknowledgement And we would like to notch the Lenape people upon whose land we are gathered today And also in a way the airwaves where it's coming out, you know is is part of part of that land and we pay respect To the Lenape people and ancestors past present and future so Here we go Ty Hey everyone, buju Ty Ndijnakaz was walking and doing to bar coming to you live from the northeast coast here I was in a mountain yesterday in Wabanaki land in Maine People of the first dawn, but then made my way down here so I can get some Wi-Fi and had to go close to the city of Near between like Boston and Bangor So I am here at the bottom of a mountain To be with you all and but typically my home where I rest and have my things is also in Lenape Hulking in a canarsie village in hipster Brooklyn right down the street from a vegan pizza spot that I love Yeah, thank you and Ty's one of our curators. Yeah Mora My name is Mora Garcia I am Cherokee non-enrolled and Maddamaskeet and I'm a dancer choreographer and erotic artist So happily selected by Ty Right now. I am on Muscogee Creek Nation Which is also Osage traditional homelands and my original home is in Okanichi Suponi homelands Fantastic fantastic Declan I am calling in from the Lenape Hulking land also Brooklyn I am a percussionist a writer and a chef and Was brought in by Miranda Heyman and I'm so grateful to be here sharing space with all these wonderful artists Hi, everyone. I'm stefa Marina Larkin. I am currently on Lenape Canarsie lands aka Bed-Stuy Brooklyn I am from Queens, New York. I Am I am a vocalist a composer a performance artist And I'm really excited to be here in space with all of you I was curated by David Mendes of all who cannot be with us But hopefully I can hold space for him too. So thanks y'all fantastic and we have your work tonight, right? Yes, 7 p.m You and How was it creating the work now on that this strange time of transition where we end music? We don't know if his corona is it over when the middle of it is theater restarting is it not how does it feel? How does it feel? You know, it's it still feels urgent, but I think it a different a different kind of urgency where I'm not in a rush for other people, but maybe I have this urgency within myself To want to Kind of let go of some of this work that I think what COVID did was rearrange some things for me in terms of Priorities, you know And really, you know I think just realizing over and over again like My art is so connected to my spirit and my center and myself and if that is not Maybe in balance or if that is not truly taken care of first Then there's no way that I can do what I want to do the way that I want to do it. So Yeah, there's been a lot of negotiating with myself and kind of having to To be really honest with myself and and really hear listen to to what I need as an artist because that connects to what I need as a as a Living breathing being Tell us a bit about the work you created for tonight. What is it about and why do you think this is important? This is what I would like to share Tonight I'm sharing the Q and Q which is this kind of first experimentation of of what I imagine is like a variety show or this kind of like behind-the-vail look at Artists talking to each other And sharing space together and I invited my amazing Friend Eta Segev who is a performance artist and a writer and her work has changed my life And it also so happens that were That were friends and that we love each other and care about each other and Yeah, I just imagine this you know like maybe one day in real life maybe one day on some kind of other airwaves or channels to just play around with Vulnerabilities and works in progress and kind of like what we call cheese may which is just like chatting you know like sharing gossip from our experience in the theater world and it's artists and Yeah, just creating fun space together because you know It's hard. It's hard to do this And to make a life out of this and so to have that respite with my community and my friends It's so integral to So to me just You know Going on. Yeah, thank you Declan, how is it for you? What's what is on your mind in these days when you create what do you think about what do you? Dream about what's missing. What's right? What's wrong? So I write as the pandemic struck the world I was deeply I Was working a lot very much in theater I was working at New York Theatre Workshop in the administrative offices and was very like all in go-go-go career theater maker doing everything I possibly can filling up all my time Working as many jobs I needed to work in order to support myself having no no Free time to myself to like sit with my thoughts just like was very go-go-go grind grind hustle hustle Which I'm sure many of us are familiar with at some point in our lives and then then over like two years I Unlearned a lot of that like grind culture and hustle culture that I thought was necessary to Be a real artist or feel like a real artist and I have a completely different a lot. I What's the word? I I'll find it. I have a much more holistic approach and I Appreciated a lot of what stuff I said just in terms of Like I my well-being is is paramount to me now whereas my career was paramount to me before and now I Maybe I've actually overcorrected and now I am not concerned enough with building this foundation to my career and The direction of that like now now I my main source of income is that I'm a sous chef at a restaurant And that is like the happiest. It's the happiest. I've ever been the best I've ever had and I still you know It's still important to me that I that I am making art that I am performing that I am doing things like this And I'm a creative assistant to Miranda Heyman who was my curator for the festival And so I am still working. I am still involved in the theater and poems community in New York but I totally agree with a lot of what stuff has said I If this isn't taking care of I'm not doing anything else, you know Like like and a lot of a lot of that went into my piece for the festival which is called How to listen to jazz parentheses and other things I did not learn in music school closed parentheses Which is a lot about just how a lot about how like Collegiate arts performance programs and obviously I speak very specifically to classical music conservatories But a lot of it a lot of things that talk about apply to any sort of arts training program and at a prestigious University or college But particularly in music You are taught to be very Athletic and you're taught to to be able to recreate the sounds and the the Work that's come before you And obviously there is a lot of value to that and like knowing your field knowing your art knowing like the generations of musicians that come before you but literally it is it is it is You are taught explicitly to be able to recreate like the exact same excerpt from a sonata over and over and over again like it's not about it's not about being able to express yourself not about being you know finding some of sort of emotional truth in music or Figuring out how to like find something what we would what theater people would probably see more as creative Music people are about recreating Perfection and so the show is all about what are all the what are all the bad lessons that I learned from that? And what are all how are all the ways that that actually set me up to have a very toxic relationship to work and to Grind culture and things like that But then it also sort of inverts itself at some point in the show because there are good lessons I learned about pushing myself about hard work And then there are there are valuable things I gained from from those and it's the show is a lot of me trying to piece out Like what are the what are the bad lessons I learned? What are the kernels of truth in that that I gained? And what do I what do I do with that? How do I move that forward? So you are sharing with us, you know this kind of journey the struggles and you Lift through in that time. I think that is also why you know You know for sure you got selected for that it will be interesting and it's interesting to say that you said I worked into a cooking I did something different. I'm happiest there and I think for many artists They've faced existential questions now. What do I do I go on? Do I they hold? Clash on do I go or do I stay? What do I do? You know and And so this is a moment and but if you share it and we can you know participate with it I'm moral. How is the moment for you? How and about your work? How does that? Yeah, I was just I'm just sitting here listening. I completely forgot what I was gonna say because I've been listening But I really enjoyed what everyone else had to say about self-care, you know As a dancer, that's something obviously You know, I think about a lot because without the vessel there is no Work, you know without sufficient sleep and some good food and good self-care There really is no work But also this idea of The reason somebody like Mozart for example was famous was because he made something new and exciting But yet you're forced to recreate old things, you know It's just a kind of funny kind of it just reminds me of traditions getting stuck getting stuck in time Which also kind of reminds me how I felt a little bit during the whole COVID life, but You know, I also was on a trajectory That I thought was gonna continue and you know had some off North America gigs, you know going to Guerrero and all of these things the things the things the things and hustle hustle hustle I was not even home for like two weeks at a time maybe tops before I was somewhere else and then everything stopped and I Guess I had lots of all different types of questions like what what is the what am I gonna be able to make work? What is the work that I'm gonna make now? What is my place in the community anymore if I can't go to these gatherings and help just just all different types of questions and so I'm lucky that I've been able to Start doing new types of work and also start doing video work and I really don't understand how this is working. I got some grants, but every month I have work I haven't had to Get another job because I keep on having gigs and I cannot explain it, you know, if this was You know February 2020 and I looked at my calendar. I would freak out because I'm not booked up but I'm not worrying about it right now because Sometimes the universe just provides and I just I keep on getting asked to do work and every time I think Man, you know, perhaps I should go and get a job at the mall and you know something else another gig comes another contract comes so At this point, I guess what's important to me is just being open and just being willing to understand that I do not understand That I'm new again and that it that's okay It's it is quite a moment and After a time where reality seemed to be stranger than fiction. It was not really imaginable What is was happening the entire world closed down perhaps the first time that all theaters for a moment Time were closed down mosques that haven't been shut down in 1500 years Closed down and even in Shakespeare's time the players were able to go outside London to the plague and but here it wasn't so You we are slowly restarting you're part of that. That is why it's so important to see, you know, what are you doing? What's Emerging what's appearing like on a stage when the light goes on something appears in your work is something that is appearing now, Mary I'm Tell us a bit about your work and how do you feel at the moment? Sure, I I realize in my intro I didn't mention I'm a writer I work in several genres including plays poetry and prose and I'm also a performer stage actor and singer so It's weird to answer this question specifically in London because they've lifted all types of restrictions, which I'm really not used to like so grocery store anywhere their people are maskless And it feels strange to like watch capitalism's machine kind of like trundle on unsupported by scientific consensus And especially to think about What that means for access in the time when actually us moving online has meant that like theater Performance is a lot more accessible to so many more people Whether it's because of literally like people who can't get to a theater Because of ability or distance or anything else To like captioning being Easily available because of like tech and all of those things And so I guess I think about sort of like as things return to normal, which they're not but like The air quotes are there for a reason What of that sort of like will will continue Including as part of our practice It's been a little freeing honestly in a lot of ways because like I I think the most miraculous thing about my play for this festival is that there's Four different artists working in four different time zones who are across oceans from each other Who are all dialing in and doing the same thing? And that wouldn't have been How we did it before I think in terms of like the the Timeliness of the work that I'm making or anything like that. I actually think I It's not ever been a concern for me because I'm I'm an Egyptian immigrant I'm not I'm not American. I am a naturalized person. I have the documentation, but I'm not American I write about Arabs for Arabs In English, but like I'm really the audience that I have in mind is always my community first I'm clear so I write a lot of queer things and so already If you're presenting something on a New York theater stage that is about Arabs That is not about how the Like global North War machine has devastated our countries. It's already considered right like what like Who would go to see that would is assumed to be a very particular subset of people So I've never really had to worry about anyone like Caring about like why now why my work why anything because I'm like, you know, if you want to come see it you're gonna come see it if not like The the perception is is that like this isn't for the majority Anyway, so yeah, that's true. I mean there's someone Point that on term non-nat NATO artists, you know artists who don't belong to the European-American, you know military defenses they kind of out also, you know as they are not part of the Alliance and Our hope of course and pray that is to to include that and open it up and tie Why did you select a mora's work? What do you feel is needed at the moment? What contribution, you know, do you think can consider performance music that make? Oh My gosh an opportunity to gush about mora here live so exciting You know, I was part of the chain curation and immediately I don't know more just like popped into my mind because of what mora mentioned around I am new again, right this idea during COVID-19 which affected a lot of native indigenous communities and people of global majority I thought like this idea is You know what has changed right what has changed from the struggle from the fighting from the you know all of these hardships trials and tribulations and at the same time joy and light and Perseverance and resiliency like these are the realities. I think a lot of you know indigenous Like dancers and performers and writers like often operate and exist in at least the world and communities that I'm a part of and so more I came to mind because of this way that mora and Inherently has Generation about her this idea about rejuvenating natural systems that exist to create sustainability for the future Allah, right the colonialism and at the same time having indigenization, right? Really relating to the earth the land that's under foot as she is creating work Body work right having a language That is yes spoken in multiple languages from her mother tongue But also like in the body and that became really important and sort of just thinking about what people are talking about here Around self-care and so to me I was like oh more was going to bring this Liberation and nourishment and regeneration and matriculation to the land and I feel like there's something really interesting about that as it relates to truth telling at a time of reckoning where you have to sit with self with thoughts with You know this idea of deepening a type of democracy in particular here in Turtle Island or the United States These kinds of things I feel like mora brings and so when I watch mora's work I was like oh, I'm feeling mora's work right now because it's very healing to me. It's healing to Understand and know someone who draws upon Ancestral wisdom of indigenous communities and the land right our relatives the two-legged four-legged winged in the rooted and Can interpolate that and to create it herself to give to other people selflessly Just through one particular Movement or motion and at the same time Creates a wave of disruption right to disrupt the status quo to disrupt what Miriam is referring to I think in terms of you know capitalism and these kinds of Monsters that begin to to form and not to even you know Call give capitalism the the truth of being monstrous because I actually am a huge fan of monsters I love it, but um, but mora in fact begins to Create a type of dialogue a dialogue that we need to hear right now at this time So mora's like just came to me like that instantaneously Yeah, yeah, so Declan or step up We hear self-care healing Return to ancestors last night. We had the 12th century and none who was a composer Hildegard von Bingen who also You know created remedies, you know, is that is that a theme at the moment? Is that? Feel connected to that. I mean, absolutely I I personally feel very connected to that and tie that was so beautiful How you just spoke of mora? It's it's it's just Resonates with me so much this Disrupting the status quo and disrupting these spaces that Traditionally have held certain attitudes have held certain protocol certain, you know Artists their audience here Exchange it's like more like transactional and that I Have never been a fan of I think I was like in condition to think that that is the only way to perform or that is the only way To create or compose. I also come from a classical music background I studied classical voice for 15 more than 15 years and it was You know again so grateful for that training and for those traditions that were imparted on me as a child because I'm incredibly blessed to have had that opportunity, but also like Recognizing the harm and really the oppression of these things in these spaces that we as Existing as queer native people by just being ourselves are disrupting it and That is a lot of responsibility and that's a lot of weight on us, you know and so I think I've I've Been thinking about this since I started, you know creating my own work and saying I'm not gonna sing other people's songs Or I'm not gonna act and other people's things, but what what is it that I need to share for? literally my own Healing and understanding of my past because it I was passed down Brahms and I was passed down Verdi, but I wasn't passed down the indigenous songs of my ancestors and I've had to in my work create that for myself and do that research for myself and and and and try things that are Foreign to me But still I know are a part of me so You know healing and return to land and all of this is so Um Important to me right now in my work and it's like Again this connection of like our vessels and our being to our art like To be a performance artist to be a vocalist. It's kind of a mind fuck because it's like Literally if I'm not okay, like I can't You can lie to yourself. Sure, but you know like It's just so it's so like soul-bearing and so Right now I'm in a place of like, how do I not just have my audience receive but also like Really have them question things, you know and take part in this like reckoning that really is what I do every time I get on stage You know Yeah, every time every time Yeah, and I think I'm also supposed to answer some part of this question Something that you that makes me think about stepha is So something that I Am have been thinking about and talking about a lot this year And I get into a little bit in the this version of my piece that is part of the festival But it is not super well super totally explored and is going to be more explored in a future draft of it, but I Tend to think that a lot of young artists, especially like Especially I'm more so like classical contemporary musicians, which I'm sure stepha you are familiar with the kind of person I'm thinking of but also theater artists like young theater artists in Brooklyn Tend to overstate the value of their own Work not and which is not to say that I Am I would just not to say that like obviously I very much believe that like we change the world through art We change hearts and minds through art. Yeah, you you can't expand your political imagination unless you're expanding your imagination and What expands your political imagination? Artists and arts and that is how people conceive of a better world and you can conceive of them how to fight for a better world I have in my experience I find that a lot of a lot of young artists are very very very geared towards their art towards their craft towards towards making you know speaking to their truth and making making their thing but Sometimes I think there is a certain type of young artists who Like all they do is is there are and they do not have other ways of relating to the world and to People around them by which I mean like I'm a very firm believer that if you call yourself an artist You should you should also have other like interests and skills outside of that Like you should be you should be a gardener. You should know how to cook. You should you should maybe you are a nurse Maybe you are a carpenter. I mean I I just think that I Think that I spent two years like I really really started learning a lot about gardening about sustainability about composting about all all of these things that I think that I Know I think the kind of and I'm speaking specifically to like people who go to art school who go to conservatories who are very much It very much like put themselves in that insular world that stuff. I was was talking about I think that I Don't know. I think that I've taken two years to really build figure out like who am I outside of music outside of theater like what are my other ways of Existing in the world and relating people around me and how how can I actually that actually enrich my art making? and prevent my art making from becoming Just a thing that I do in my room for myself and like five of my friends who come to go see it I mean I can sense I feel like when I talk about this It sometimes comes out as like art is not important or like art it like being an artist is pretentious Which is not at all what I am trying to communicate Yeah, I'll leave it at that. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a time of healing but also a time of disruption A time to also realize, you know, the complex world. We do live in our communities Merriam, how are they? Relating to all of this see your your playwright, you know, most of people are often performers and I'm glad we have also a Written work also in prelude Tell us a bit about your work Sure The the work that's included in the festival or just Why you hear what's in it that you feel is that that's what I want to share Sure So for the festival like I said, I I did I decided that I did not need to concern myself with the timeliness thing or the sort of like Having to speak directly to the pandemic or or pandemic conditions So I decided to just work on sort of the latest play that I had left in a place where I really wanted to get back to it and hadn't for Various reasons. I think generally as an artist, I really need to have a deadline That's not my own just like desire to finish a thing. So like any time I have a container of Whether it's like a show or just like a fellowship space where I have people that like will look at my pages or something like that That is really helpful for me to finish things because otherwise as a writer I take long walks in Brooklyn and Think about the stories and finish them in my head and that's good enough for me Like I know what happens at that point. So I need something else to Kind of drive setting it down and so I picked up this play Entitled faggy fofie Cairo boy fofie is Arabic for it's an Arabic word that describes a feminacy kind of being like spoiled And it's used derogatorily usually towards men and it's It's a play that I actually started in a fellowship with Thai in like the year that we spent together at trans lab So he'll be a little familiar with it and It's some it tries to answer the question Can homophobia survive the grave? I don't know if I come to an answer at the end of that but definitely it's been contending with a lot of the issues that I have had with my Family and community around being a queer person the silence of the closet All of those things And then more generally during the pandemic My mental health suffered quite a bit at the beginning Partly because of being in the United States away from like my entire blood family and not just worrying that I was gonna get a Phone call that something terrible had happened and all of that I couldn't fly anywhere. I couldn't like I was just in New York waiting for disaster disastrous news to come my way And was suddenly very socially isolated because of the conditions of the pandemic and so at the time I Needed to fill my time with something and after The phase of like I'm gonna cook all the fancy things and eat them alone Do the gardening projects and and all of that Needed to be making art in community and I had been interested in poetry for a long time I'd written I think like six poems to my name in a lifetime of trying to write And didn't really feel like it was my genre Every time I'd written a poem felt like a visitation from somewhere that I couldn't tell you where it was coming from so I just decided to be a little more deliberate about it and put myself very intentionally in a lot of Learning spaces that actually ended up being like Majority people of color by design like I was taking classes with Kave Kahnem and Kundiman and places like that And that was really helpful And I generated so much work because there was like Nothing else to do nothing to distract me and it was a way of just like getting everything That I was churning internally about out on paper whether the churning was it was like Contemporaneous to the pandemic or just like my life Yeah Yeah, it is it is quite quite a moment, you know very Existentially faced, you know also with death and the wrong handshake at least in the beginning you thought could kill us But I think for the indigenous community which was hit much much much harder in much much higher numbers And everybody else Maura, how does it? feel for you know to create art to you do your dance work, which also unique maybe you talk a bit about it, but and has something changed in your Relation to your work is something different. Is that time before somebody says should be AC and BC before COVID? You know an after COVID, you know So it has something changed Yeah, there was something that I was thinking about Just generally and it's that We've already been through the apocalypse here You know, we we came out of the apocalypse. I'm very literally I'll say for example for Cherokee people in 1738 Smallpox we lost half our population like half the nation and then it happened again. So and Just like the dismantling of entire society dismantling of the earth of everything so we've come through the apocalypse, you know something Even much harsher than what we have now like 10 times harsher and we're still here and so I remember thinking You know when people would say the world is ending I was like no the world actually already ended and we've come out on the other side And maybe it'll end again. I don't know And so In terms of has something changed One thing that has really changed is that I started doing erotic work during During the pandemic and so because of that That's actually changed kind of everything Because I decided to be fully Vocal and public with the type of work that I'm doing Which means that some doors are opened up and you know, I'm having interviews and my work is in different spaces Other doors are shut, you know, no longer teaching artists No, that's okay, I can babysit nephews and things like that so Yeah, it's it was The pandemic has changed a lot for my work But also the type of work that I started exploring has changed everything as much as the pandemic as well and You know, I I think another thing also has been how do you Reach people we talked a little bit about this but This idea that I'm Can't touch you and I may not be able to stand right next to you and even with a performance, you know They're going out to the audience and the sitting next to people and sharing breath with people as part of shows Just these ideas of how how am I connecting, you know workshops or and I've really had to broaden that idea and realize that zoom realize that You know, even little videos that people are watching on Instagram or Tik Tok They still have value and they still have a lot of value and they still also reach people that I was not reaching before So I've learned to appreciate that I've gotten Messages from people about Instagram videos, which I did put my heart into but I was like, oh, this isn't perfect This isn't Art, you know But people said, oh you gave me life I woke up in this morning because of the stance Thank you so much you inspired me to do this and I realized how important all of these ways of communicating are You know this right now We're not holding hands of kissing each other But we are still holding space and this has value and is important and touches people and you know in deep ways also so and Ty thank you. That was the best ever ever talk about my work. So Hmm How is it generally I mean last year this year also of the Black Lives Matter movement about The Me Too movement also the calls for diversity. Do you guys feel there is? More that you hear from the outs from the world that draws you in that society says, you know We need you come in here. Is that more is it less? How do you feel and also your role to make something at the moment you create work? In the what interests you and that the circle and the circle of what you know, it's good for community society How do you feel at the moment? Do you feel there is a new connection or? Has nothing changed yesterday the panel said, you know, we don't feel The change maybe going to answer that not by saying like the Sort of like a comment on the availability of Like for me Arabic speaking roles or non-binary roles or like anything like that or like Spaces that are trying to put on Arab or Muslim or Middle Eastern art or any or or that I will say that I Think what what seems to have changed is that institutions know they were not doing well And that they will get called on it and I actually think that the second part of that has been more important than anything else and so like that's that's a pressure that I appreciate having and Hope institutions continue sort of like Whether it's kind of like a cynical response or not, right? It's still a response and that does mean that that at least the art is available to Folks and then hopefully if you like do the thing for long enough, you can be the thing eventually But for now like I'll take knowing that like if somebody is Producing a festival and they know they will be trashed on the internet for having only like whites This man be making work for it. I'll take that like fine if that's if that is what it has taken Actually, there's no if that is what it's taken so Yeah, I Think I feel I want to say like artists and workers feel like they have more Bargaining power right now like You know before COVID Maybe I'll speak I'll speak for myself. I was getting like $200 for a gig at a music venue and at the time I thought well, you know, this is part of the hustle. This is part. I just got to pay my dues, you know I'm gonna go into my pocket and pay my musicians. I'm gonna pay my my artists and I thought it's it's part of the culture It's okay, then COVID happens, you know All these institutions go into a frenzy everyone's putting out their their statements and their declarations of solidarity and And we know, you know, we know mostly it's it's bullshit And so I feel like artists are just we're just more I want to say I'm more empowered now to one say no to things that I'm like this is gonna actually deplete me financially emotionally Spiritually and I don't need this and it's giving me space and I think that's offering giving more space for For me to ask for more and for me to demand more because I'm like I know what my time and my health and And this body is worth and I know that you can probably make it work And if you can't, you know, I'm not gonna sleep over it whereas I think in the I think and I think this is for a lot of workers like I think we're seeing a moment of a lot of Strikes, you know, and a lot of people like demanding, you know, we want to unionize we want to like We want to like walk out because it's because the conditions are horrible and like feeling like what we went through You know, we're not returning to the same old thing and it's not about Instagram posts or you know, these these like kind of superficial Shows of of solidarity with us, but it's like we're gonna make you like we're gonna really hold you We're gonna hold you accountable And we're gonna demand more for ourselves And so I I'd like to think that that has shifted because I'm seeing, you know, the Whitney workers Guggenheim Brooklyn Museum like that's so exciting I was working at a me I was a museum worker for many years and I'm like we're getting paid so little like We should unionize, you know, and everyone's like No, like I'm leaving or like, you know, like, oh, there's just a part time like whatever that's never gonna happen here and I'm like It took all of us getting fired. It took like Us being out maybe on unemployment and being like wait like it is possible to make a living and to like To like sustain ourselves as artists like stop lying to us And telling us that there's no money telling us there's no resources because like We know who are on your boards. We know what your boards are funding. They're funding wars. They're fun, you know, like It's just like we're over it and the truth is like I think even before co-covid I was like I've always been kind of anti institutions, you know but then just Just seeing it all laid bare. I think has just I think really empowered our artists because We just realized again and again like without us you're actually nothing and we actually make you So like What have we got, you know, what have we got to lose to ask for our worth? so I think it's I think that was a Maybe a positive change exciting change for Yeah, I agree with that I um one thing that A lot of the protest and then the the documents. I think we can I think every field has had the documents like the uh equity documents that came out and the the boards, you know, the people making the equity all of those things um I realized that we've been kind of trained and and to believe that the arts Right and that whole structure is somehow more pristine or less oppressive than A bank for example, and that's really just not true You know, we've been trained to think it is and accept things And I just realized that you know, I was in the Hustle so much I didn't stop to think because I could not About wait a minute. Is this actually fair? Is this actually equitable? Why why what's this gatekeeping? Why am I You know, why are we applying for these little things and you can't even really um Get to a point where you can apply until you have a certain amount of education and a certain amount of time you know just all of these inequities and I guess for me, I realized one that um commercial world we can also work in the commercial world and You know, this is a very kind of small world. We've created and we are we're our own audiences Like the five people you're talking about, you know And maybe it's 500 or even 5000 But the point is you can go into walmart and I'll just use the example of alvin ali Okay, because that's one of the most well-known Dance companies from the united states you can go into walmart anywhere And from the you know people working in the checkout to the manager to every single person in there Probably 90 or more have never heard of alvin ali. They don't know what it is. They know nothing about it and um Yeah, just thinking about this these little bubbles and systems and how they are not fair and how we Can work in it and we can work to make it better, but we are not beholden to stay in The arts, you know, and if I want to do a commercial for a toothpaste company and dance I'm going, you know, that hasn't happened yet, but I'm just saying I'm going to dance in the toothpaste commercial too um Also something that has happened to me personally is that I've got lots of consultations from folks and primarily White arts organizations And you know, they'll call up an email for consultations about how to diversify and how to do this And I have to say unfortunately that after lots of labor Nothing was changed and so, uh I see kind of this wanting to hold on to the system You know trying to or we're going to make the system better, but actually the system was broken and needs to go away so, um I'm hopeful that something will change and I don't know exactly how that will happen But I think if the system has to be put away instead of trying to fix the system We need to get out of the system so Hmm, I love that I'll hop in here too and just to wow just Hearing the words ringing from my ears in this moment from Stefan moran you all who have spoken but thinking about I've been thinking a lot about Yes to the social power and then yes also the collective power of artists coming together You know to to make a new so that has been really exciting to me And and then on the personal level too this idea about accountability and ethics relating to sovereignty And people having sovereignty over their own bodies over the art that they're making The places that you're showing up to to speak to sing to to create art And I because I do feel like art is everywhere. It's not just in one single location But art is in the garden. It is in the kitchen art is walking and building a staircase to a miniature home that you have gotten And pulled it to a land where you will now live and practice your art every day, right? Lee maracle says that freedom is created outside of the box created for us And I hold on to that quote and it's you know a first nations quote from canada because i'm thinking about how Um sovereignty begins to find its way into the art making otherwise it then starts to become extractive So what I have noticed about you know the institution or statehood, right is this idea of There has been a time where it was like, what can I get right and then it's changing to What do you need and then sort of folks that have been falling in the camp of right? What can I get being extractive and sort of Appropriative with arts and artists in all of the ways have really um fallen by the wayside And artists are now because of technology, right have built sustainable and cyclical places to build art to create our own sort of places for feedback for You know collaboration and I feel like uh individuals that are trying inside that are trying to change the system, etc are also um really understanding this idea about um social jurisdiction And understand their own that um cultural capital has a type of power in it, right? So a lot of that um Funding and things I think is becoming really important So it allows artists to create art so that we can care about things like our hair And condition it every day and comb through it if we need to and spend hours Untangling things that get stuck inside of it. And of course, I'm using hair as a metaphor here because y'all have fabulous hair But um, you know this idea about like let's let's start caring about these these moments where we need to have unstructured time To create the real things for change and folks that are starting to understand that Who do have the means in funding and who do have operated maybe in a white supremacy model are starting to change because of Classism essentially that exists. I know here in Turtle Island Folks are putting their money in that because of the social movement Because of the atrocities and the fallen warriors like George Floyd or Breonna Taylor, right? These folks have taken bullets in the back in the head in their art for us right for us so that um We can say hey y'all we ain't doing that anymore We have new messages new things to make and create and one thing that you cannot take away is the imagination Right the imagination is invaluable and that that's a thing I think that I'm starting to see in in artists is the imagination get even more creative, which is exciting to me I haven't ever had to say this out loud. So like I I'm thinking about how to even say it I hope I express myself how I intend to but like one thing that I wish institutions would realize is that like it is a zero-sum game like Redistribution means that like some of y'all are going to just have less like less time less money less whatever Um, and that there isn't like a magic way to break out of that there isn't like more is more or Whatever the the narrative is like if you want to Put on art made by people of color by people of like gender variant experience by Whatever whatever like your the diversity flavor of the day Kind of is that means there will be less For the people that you would normally be funding and there's just no way out of that, you know like um Yeah Yeah, no, I think you know institutions, you know We'll have to realize that you should invite people to sit down with you at the table and Feed but also say here's a table for you where you can do the into why Doesn't a large organization say tie, you know do something? Why doesn't a dense company say well create a work, you know and Try things out and I think this is a missing that existing big structures, which are very hard They also struggling for survival Lincoln Center theater says we get 0.1 percent of our revenue comes from the city of new york We have to fundraise everybody thinks we so big and great, you know, but we work so hard, but yes, um, and then we look at often at Paychecks of the leaders of big museums and art is to list a gigantic You know compared to the museum worker who is it really worth 20 30 times more what they do and Other relations right and I think institutions will have to look that it should Look at it and some people actually you mentioned I was interesting this works strike You know and some people do say what it will take is all artists should just say for a year We just don't work. We will not work under these conditions. I'm say adjuncts at universities You know six over 60 or 65 percent and by you are no longer You know professorals tenure they all adjuncts a disposable paid little even though the students Pay so much and this kind of part of this machine And because they should strike do you feel what does it take? to even get More results is that it would that we think about what what are strategies? What do you hear from your communities? What do people do in a way as? You know If I said well, we organized, you know, we got fired while people got together Is there a way you still do you see something do you hear something or anyone have you part of a movement? Man Frank. I'm thinking about this table. I'm like without artists. There would be no table Who would design the table for people to sit and be at so that's that's where my mind went. I'm like wow You know so much design in that table But one thing I'll quickly say here too that I think is important is about Fostering and building relations right which is stems from indigenous philosophy about about that right and not just people But the earth itself and I feel like who are the collaborators right just like as artists We all collaborate with different people you want to be a you know a good collaborator and show up so forming and fostering and cultivating relations and being in right relation Which means right your actions and accountability for self become very important. It's like when you enter a I don't know a relationship with a beloved you want to be like like such an awesome beloved that The things that you do and say and and art and you know really be reciprocal in some kind of way of Of agreeing upon that so I think that's becoming important and I don't know more and I are in A part of different indigenous circles that have developed across the country One with like the western artist alliance and you know with indigenous direction our work with lorisa fast horse And really wonderful artists where we just sort of are often our you know Our own circles and things like that having these conversations So I think you know, I know native artists are beginning to talk to each other And find new ways to develop protocols Right, so it's not just um someone gets quartered and it's like one and done or that's it But we are like beginning to reclaim that kind of power about saying hey What do you think about working with these individuals or this? System so I think that's important And I'm I'll let mora speak here because there's some other things. I know mora's a part of as well So thank you so much everyone Oops, okay. There it is um You know This reminds me of Just the fact that we everyone has different roles, right? um And we cannot some people will be spearheading movements and some people will be Sending out the emails Some people will be sharing and so I have there's some there's many things going on and You know at some point. I thought well I can make work Or I can be on this committee in this committee in this committee in this committee in this committee And there all of those things are valuable But we each have a part that we're supposed to play in this world and so for me, I know um I am a part of lots of different discussions And I you know provide whatever information I have for my You know upbringing and the experiences but um At this point I realize okay I'm here to participate and to give ideas and then I I can do but in terms of the planning and the You know, I'll be there for example if you start that community garden. I'll be there to weed I'll be there to weed always don't ask me to come up with the overall reaching goal of this garden But I will be there to weed so That's my thought about that is that um It's I think it's easy to kind of get lost and oh wait got this way Oh wait got to go this way and I for me is just knowing that Um the garden cannot happen unless someone does weed because all of the you know The corn and the squash are going to be choked by the morning glories or whatever. That's a true story by the way um so You know that just knowing that that it doesn't mean that I have to have my face You know on the front line at this strike Maybe I've cooked in there for everybody because they've been out there for 12 hours You know, so that's that's what what I feel my role is and I just think it's important that people not feel shame or pressured to be in a role that might not be where their heart is supposed to be because All of those things are important. You can't have A movement or action without people doing Little tasks or seemingly little tasks or all different types of things which may or may not be as visible so Um, I have maybe like a two-part answer to that question um The first is is uh, I think stefa said it already like just to say no sometimes and I recognize that that also Is a privilege sometimes for some people um to be able to say no, but um oftentimes institutions will Use the promise of their reach or their resources or whatever to Try to get you to accept conditions that are Not to your benefit in any Anyway, um, I was asked to to talk at columbia's Writing program their mfa Which regularly put students into massive amounts of debt with nothing sort of like no promise at the end of that And I was asked to do it for free And it was you know, like they they're what they were holding for me is that like their columbia right and I Still had to spend quite a bit of time writing an email Um that didn't need to be like not rude, but I was trying not to be rude Right to just like very politely reject the invitation and to like Give them a slap on the wrist at the same time so that maybe they can try to do better um Right and and what they're actually offering me is one spot on their calendar that they are going to feel if i'm not there And that's all they're offering me right so so like the The promise of what's actually available is amplified by scarcity and it's not real like there's a million other things That are available that are not the columbia universities of the world Um, so that's that's one thing is to like if possible Say no, uh, if you understand that you're getting into an exploitative relationship um Where I break that rule for myself like I'll I'll do things for free for um Places that I know are actively working towards a world that is more just that is the world that I want to be Part of and if that's like a community organization or whatever it is I actually think of that as tithing, you know, so it's not like i'm not working for free I'm like you're making a world possible where I can be valued more as a human being and this is like This is my part so it doesn't feel like I'm working for free um So that's part one of of my answer and then the the other part for me has really been just like creating spaces that are Not institutional at all and that are therefore smaller and scaled down and don't have like crazy lighting boards and whatever But like I all you need to make theater is like a floor or a screen or a thing, you know, and and people want to make it so um Starting in like 2015. I want to say I I began hosting um a world music salon An open mic thing that I run out of my living room. It's been monthly ish since I know for a fact that the entrances You know, there's a suggested sort of like donation, but nobody is turned away for lack of funds So you can always come in for free And I know for a fact that the artists who get paid for the gigs that they do Get paid more than for like working a venue in brooklyn Right like the economies actually work for everybody involved and it's because like the people Who are there are my friends or my friends of friends and they know this person personally and they want to help them pay their rent And they want to appreciate the work that they're putting Out into the world and none of us have to deal with the overhead of like ceo What's his face who's like getting most of this money at the end of the day? um So i'll just say that that like It's it's nice to do something at Lincoln Center It's nicer that you can always do something any day in your living room like that's just always available Yeah, what uh What would be curious what are examples of kind of a relatively change in berlin is a theater which Changed now, but the concept i admired was called the gorky theater And it was given as one of the bigger five state theaters to a turkish german director and their concept was And basically everybody who looked like me was out, you know, they they said this is a theater for you know, refugees for immigrants so every actor Every director there was the basic idea every playwright Even though they made exceptions for close friends, but they were not the what you think of a german german, you know Woman that so and they're from russia from israel from syria from the balkan So so many people fled to berlin also vibrant city And they wrote their own plays it was complicated and beginning everybody laughed about it said, you know How's this gonna work out just immigrant plays it's gonna be boring You know it's just ideology ideology and which is true ideology makes for bad theater You need to still make good performances because it doesn't matter how good your ideological statement as it's still You know when something is great and they started out in after a while You know after they tried and failed but they had a year too. They created great work They became the theater of the year. They had the youngest audience They were sold out a hundred percent by the seats and they did exciting work So I think this is a an example in a way. I mean it already has changed us and no longer how it is They should have continued it, but what do you feel? What institutions what places or what things do you hear? They say this is really something different I mean, let's imagine new york theater workshop would work that way, you know, they have a change in leadership And they okay, let's give it over to the die time mariam and mora And Declan you're gonna whatever hire your friends bring them and try something out And you have two or three years and hopefully something great will come out at the end It's not going ever going to happen. Also. There's not the funding there They are under real stress, you know to keep everybody going but um, but what did you hear about or what do you admire? What is like that? I like that Something I don't know. We don't know Frank just a comment about the example you just gave I I think actually like what that theater did was less cultivate the artist than cultivate an audience Right and that's like that's because the artists have been there. They've been making work right, um And even the space they had a nest they have a play. Yeah, absolutely But it's titles every show was in turkish Subtitles, you know, that's something we don't even think about it. Why isn't every theater show spanish subtitles in new york city? No, they're white People are in the minority right now. There's over 50 percent six, but it's it's not it's not white You know, how can that be? Where are the stories? What do we see? Why isn't there a small indigenous native american theater just 99 seats doesn't even have to be made? Why is that not existing? They are 400 theaters, you know, how shocking in a way um Why I think well colonialism right like it's it's colonialism It's this idea about not valuing Arts and the makers who are doing it and creating objectivity around the art itself, right? Like it's sort of how can I Get these things for power and for money and of all the things that we Need to also live as artists, which right provides a sort of catch 22 But I definitely um think it's this idea about colonialism. It's the great colonial project It is not allowing people to envision liberation or have imagination and or remember Right things of the past so that those things can be as I think stefa mentioned for future generations to come, right? So the idea about Re-remembering creating blood memory I think is so important and this is just like right my perspective and point of view coming out of Indigeneity and even thinking about that and how complex it is. But I think it's right like it's this um You know wanting it to be cookie cutter only one thing and that one person can be the dictator and owner of all of those things To not have democracy. We kind of you know scarcely saw a little bit of that in You know in the united states In turtle island with the orange dumpster fire that was right like a year ago That people were walking on eggshells In our lands there in turtle island Where we are welcoming people of the global majority right in exchange of culture and exchange of languages And we're like wtf. What is this? So there is um A political ties to about putting laws On what should be people's birth rights, right? So the theater of the art is a microcosm speaking to something Something larger at work in in terms of what adrian marie brown refers to as a fractal, right? It's a microcosm of like something greater the great colonial project as i'm thinking about and neocolonialism as well I think they once did a survey for all new york city departments like the fire department health department police department Undiversity at tom i think finkel pearl at the time who came in wanted also really to make a change And to know what's what and i think only two percent Of the entire people working there, you know, we're like non-white. It wasn't the worst offender of all Department i think was if i understand right and remember i was this, you know the cultural department, you know and And so things, you know do need to just but again back. What are what are Examples, what did you like who i know so whole rep? I think that's great work Also fair payment and the workshop stay house and others and but what are examples where you guys what you know? What do you look up to? institutions people What should our listeners follow and look at? Um, i'd like to say something about this. I may not answer exactly. Yeah, but yes, i'll say something good I what i really love is For example, i'll just give an example. I did a workshop a while back at haskell indian nation's university For it was either in the empowerment summit or the suicide prevention. I can't remember i've done both um Another time when i went to the warm springs reservation in oregon um Neither of those places had a big budget, you know um, but for example at haskell i did have a fee however The workshop was You know as best as they could was played up in a not, you know, not an overway, but i mean they They highlighted the importance of it and highlighted the importance of the work. I was introduced. I was gifted A mug which i still have i was thanked profusely and i was fed um At warm springs they picked me up, you know, they drove me around i was fed also also gifted with things so to me Communities and places That may or may not have high level of funds The understanding that we can also trade We have trade here, you know um To me is of great value so institutions or communities or places that say hey I only have two hundred and fifty dollars, but i can pick you up and you can stay um At my grandma's house and we will feed you and then we will sing your praises To all these other places and probably maybe you can get some more work down the road and you know, so this this idea of trading and The embracing of this very old system Where it's not always based on money So in kind and fair Looking at the work fairly and valuing it, but understanding you can also trade so to me that is Some good work that I see being done and that is exciting because it's also a very indigenous way of Of being yeah, uh, I have a I have um My answer is sort of the opposite of it's almost the opposite of morris In that mine is very granular and does have to do with money, but um uh, I was really really surprised in a beautiful way and uh It almost couldn't believe it when um We're probably some of us are probably familiar when my ye the the theater company the pan asian theater company in new york announced that they were eliminating 10 out of 12s going to a five-day work week and guaranteeing 21 50 dollars an hour for all of their workers along with benefits um And I was like well I mean that is a that is a small theater company. I mean and they say in their statement They're like we are a pretty we're a pretty small culturally specific theater company We've we've figured out a way that we can we can do this. Um, and so like You know companies that are bigger than us can probably do this too. Um, and I just thought I just I you know I don't I don't think I need to say other than like that is I guess what I am saying is that I don't have a lot of answers for like what are uh You know what are institutions or companies that I admire or I think are doing positive things or or you know I really struggle to find an answer. I mean that's part of why I've sort of pivoted away from working in the theater full time because I I Wasn't finding any sort of of that fulfillment. Um, but that is that is sort of one of the ones that's come to mind in the last couple of months of That was that was a time where I felt very impressed by by a company. Um and by a material a material commitment to something Yeah, the the first, um Maybe organization or like theater company that came to my mind. I'm also similar to deklin I really am like what institution do I want to put on blast? You know, like what institution do I want to like uplift? um But not many but um, they're called superhero clubhouse and they're a group of um policy people theater people lawyer scientists. Um, and their goal is to create theater around climate justice. Um and They work in schools. Um, and they help, you know, like kids in elementary school make plays And write their own plays and then adult Actors and performers then like put on these plays for them. Um, and I I have friends who work with them who are on their board and You know, they're like working with Brooklyn kids and um I just think that's really really important work that's happening. Um, you know, they're doing plays outside. They're doing like, um Yeah, just like occupying space in that way and also like you know Having it come from like the youth in new york, I think is just I think it's just really special. So that's one place that I've heard of, you know Doing really cool stuff that I think more people should know about Yeah, I'll uplift a couple places that I think are pretty wonderful and it's because of the individuals Who is sort of, you know like What i'm hearing here is as well as myself like who want who are Needing to be in a different world that currently exists because of the system because of sort of what was being discussed And so I was thinking about, um People that have formed collectives and have come together to make work And I'm thinking of David in the movement theater company and didra herrington and those folks Who are you know holding themselves accountable at the same time of making work and amplifying others? and I just think that theater company is doing such great work and they Produced what to send up when it goes down Which you know became like this viral hit You know in terms of a show and a lot of people seeing it I think um the chicago puppet international festival Or it's like they take over the city and you do different various puppet works from around the world That's helmed by blare thomas. I think are is doing really wonderful work and partnering with Community organizations where they already are doing that work So it's more of building like a partnership within there and and and leaning on the leadership of artists as well as You know people of global majority of people who are trans and non-binary leadership in taking Those words of wisdom and saying like okay, how do your community grandmothers need to be paid? Do they need to fill out a w9 form by the united states government to receive their stipend of 50 dollars? Right? These are real things that start to happen where as an artist like sure you want a dramaturg that's a grandmother But do you ask grandma that you know hides the cash under the mattress to like Fill out all these forms. I mean it's just you know So there are it's like the little things the little things Matter right feeding people do people provide food for to have feasts and to To have conversation right that is becoming important So those are just some companies that i'm really looking at and i'm really excited by the work that's coming out of these places I mean We are getting closer. We have like five more minutes or something But so the really thank you and I it's also a little bit telling that little Silences in between that you had to think what is there what institution? You know kind of you know, there are five people sitting here. We know the city very well And from your point of view, you know, so that's it shouldn't be it's also tells something but Listen, what inspired you on this time like for creating now, but maybe over the last year What a music or book or like very far or film what did what did you look to what gave you? You know some some gas for your motor and kept your knife sharp and And keep kept you running what what maybe share that and then be able to end the panel Miriam this isn't uh, this isn't like a show that I want to see or or anything like that but um, I was reading um, Daniel Defoe's journal of the plague year When the when the pandemic started Because I was trying to make I did make a book length erasure poem from it But I was reading that and It was strange just how if you if you modernize the language It's really the pandemic that we're living through now, which like in some moments felt hopeless and then in other moments Recalling what mara said at the top of this like the world has ended several times whether the sort of like You know the like the the the narrative that that Is most accessible to most people which is typically like white and western all of that Whether it acknowledges those worlds ending or not. Um, and so that weirdly fed me a little bit when it really did feel like Yeah, like what's tomorrow going to look like who knows I don't know Excellent what what what did you listen to read watched Right now. I'm uh, I can't stop listening to Japanese ambient music Which is not really something that has influenced my work yet Uh, but it is become a very core part of my morning and my journaling Is I put Japanese ambient music on and I sit with my cat for 20 minutes each morning and I don't look at my phone and I Just sort of I'm present with my thoughts um In terms of things that like have influenced my work, I mean, I I've mentioned a few times. I I I've just started to go and see shows again and uh, sit in Go go see live performances and that's been My my cats are not the kind of cats that come when I asked them to come Uh, if if he wanted to be with me right now, he would and he does not want to be with me right now And I have to respect his space. Um But uh, I feel like um Yeah, I feel like I'm just starting to to sort of engage with live performances again And that's been really wonderful. Oh, you know, actually what I'll say is, um, I've uh become I've I've gone gone a lot of drag shows over the summer and have Started to try to immerse myself into the new york drag community and um, I was not I did not know a lot about or attended a lot of live drag performance before the pandemic. Um, and now that's a pretty regular It's for one of probably one of the only Um things that I really regularly like go out of my way to go and go to go see Um, and that's been really wonderful and that is that has definitely been impacting my The drag community they went out there performed in restaurants places bars Clubs and they were out there when people weren't doing tie. What what what did you listen to and uh Oh, wow. Well, I've been reading one two things. Yeah, oh good I've been reading the fifth season by nk jemisin total sci-fi nerd here Imagining worlds and world buildings. So I've been doing that and like playing Let's see beat saber non-stop and other like virtual reality things D&D, you know hit me up. So I just um, yeah this this and um for music Yeah, I've been listening to just a lot of bird songs because like I've also been birding I got it got me a pair of binoculars in new york city so I can look in apartment windows and also look at birds at the same time Very exciting amazing step up um, let's see what Okay, I also bought binoculars I was gonna go to this bird watching course, but then of course like I think I slept in because it was like 9 a.m In prospect park, but we should go like bird watching or something. Oh my gosh. Let's go. Let's do it um I mean, um What have I been? I had a performance popped into my head that um, I experienced at the end of the summer which was um An artist named guadalupe maravilla who had been creating um these huge gong sculptures and would have artists with him um and host sound baths And I was able to go to this incredible hour-long sound bath with my mother and It was outside in sakura these sculpture park, which is a beautiful park in queens. Um And you know, he he creates these sound baths. Um, a lot of the times for the general public and then also specifically for cancer survivors um and it was just Just to experience this outside and Just see the way that even though the sculptures were so beautiful and otherworldly alien You know, it's definitely it was called planet abuel ex, which is like a gender neutral um, grandparent word And just to be there with my mother and like, you know, she had back pain I have back pain and it's to really like move things in your body this somatic experience like It just felt so um, beautiful and connected Um outside experience. Yeah, and outside in a park, you know something, you know what? You know, we are looking trying to get involved in mora. You're at the our end. Sorry. We let But tell us a bit I'm going quickly. Um, yes to the I want to have one of those sound baths by the way that sounds wonderful um But yes to the outside So I'd say that some of the things would be one outside itself because I'm not based in the knock the hooking and I'm I've been in places. I've moved around a lot actually during this pandemic but I've been in places that have access to beautiful forest and outdoor spaces and so the sun and realizing that I still Am able to be in the forest freely without having to worry about a pandemic at that moment that has been uh Very inspirational to me also, um, You know instagram and tiktok. I have watched a lot of stuff You know lots and lots of videos just lots of people's work. Actually, there's lots of great wonderful stuff. Yeah Um, so that has been inspirational and then two companies in particular Virgo nation I think they're based in and couver bc. Uh, it's all indigenous burlesque company Their work has been and various, you know sex worker friendly and supportive um, and then also santi smith who's on six nations um And her work that she's been doing with the pandemic where she actually grew a stage she Grew you know like with sunflowers and had it built on her family's land on the res And where there was a you know So there was a stage there and then there was another performance where people walked through the forest and performers were at different places And there were projections. So that has been very inspirational to me in terms of I was like, oh, well, could just do that all the time. I mean, it's it's really neat So oh my good. Yeah, fantastic. Well, that is that is good to know. There's things out there We don't know about maybe we'll never know about but they're great and wonderful ones into it We should you know join them and we should you know Be part of the world that is larger than us someone once said on our seattle talks. It's not enough Uh shoes feel, you know, how is life in somebody else's shoe? Take your own shoe off first, you know, and Oh, you do that and I think this is a big one. It's interesting girls nature parks Healing but also to rupture a real disruption. So it is quite a quite a moment We live in and only when we look back five ten years from now We will fully understand this. Thank you for joining us fantastic tonight at seven stiffer all join and And thank you Ty Mora the deckland and everybody, you know who mariam and for for joining us. Thanks for the seagull team tanvi andy Gouraf in Mumbai is fantastic. I think If you look under the hood of the car And that we normally see just passing by so thank you and join us again Thanks for our listeners really for taking time out. It's very very busy time more more stuff is Is out there so that means a lot to us and thanks to howl around again, of course for hosting at what a fantastic great place And they are one organizations to look to what they did what they contributed and this time is Stunning and amazing. So bye. Bye and I hope to see you all soon and to all listeners. Please join us again. Thank you very very much