 Personal Trainers. Stop training people and start teaching them. You need to guide them. Get them to the point where they can do this on their own. Now here's the interesting part about that. You'll become more successful if you do this properly. Just stop taking through workouts. Teach them so they learn. This was a huge shift. You got to be the Oracle. The what? The Oracle. The Oracle? Yeah, you're the person of wisdom that they come back to. I remember as an early trainer it was like, oh, I'll just tell you what to do and then you just do it. And then eventually I started figuring out if I really find ways of teaching my clients and showing them why we do what we do and why things work the way they do and why you shouldn't do it this way, not only were they more likely to follow my advice, but they would develop a better relationship with it. And the irony of that is they stayed with me longer because I think a lot of trainers are afraid of teaching clients because they're like, well, they're not going to need me anymore. The truth is if you ever get a client to the point where they don't need you anymore, they'll probably stay with you longer. Which is interesting. Do you think that's what it is? I think so. And also the other part of it is I think they don't realize that. They should be, you know, it's like clients who learn how to exercise, who learn why they do what they do. They just do so much better. Maybe trainers don't realize that. Yeah, I think it's more of that. I think, because when I think back to like, we all were this way as trainers, you know. And I do remember having that scarcity mindset of afraid of losing them, but I also think that I was just naive, I didn't know better. I just thought it was always like the X's and O's. It was, oh, if they ate these macros, they did these exercises, and I just motivated them to complete it. And most people don't complete it and fail. And so my job was to inspire them to get through it. And that was most of my job. And then most people still fail and you just kept recycle, repeat, recycle, repeat, not realizing I think the psychological piece, right? The behavioral piece that you, after years of experience, you start to realize like, oh, that matters a lot, maybe even more so than the other stuff. I think it's rare for like a new trainer to really be able to look at it long term like that. I think it's really, it's like a short term view versus long term view with like how to guide your clients. So initially it's like, like you said, it's all the X's and O's. It's like, can I get them to subscribe to eating these types of foods and to just like do these types of exercises? And that's like as far as your like mentality goes. Dude, it's so funny you say that this morning I was talking to Kyle, and I won't put the business on blast that's helping him or going through this stuff right now, but you guys know that we found him go out and sign up for courses and try different things. And it's interesting, probably why this is and why this is perpetuated in the space is because you've got companies that are teaching trainers, like kind of this model and philosophy. And like I was talking to him, I'm like, hey, what are you liking? What are you not liking? He's like, ah, well, he goes, I can see what they're building me up to. Like one of the things they do to make sure that you recoup the money that you've invested in them is they build towards this big launch, you know, and it's all around hype and motivation. Right? It's like, get your, your following hyped up about this challenge or this event and you're going to sell all these, these programs. It's so unsustainable. It's so unsustainable. It's, and it's funny because obviously they're teaching from the business perspective, but you wonder why that's also why the trainers I think coach and teach this way is that they have that same mentality. And so it's, it's a, it's a failing model, not only for helping your clients, but also for business and yet this is the philosophy. And again, scarcity, right? The, the, the idea of the business teaching these guys this is that well, we want to make sure that they at least make their money back. They spent on us. They spent, you know, eight grand. Yeah. Then after that, who cares if he's got a business or not because they can, at least we know that, hey, they spent $10,000 on us. We're going to show him how he can make $10,000. We can guarantee that by running this, you know, launch or this thing that we're going to do. And then after that, if he's a great trainer, he'll make it. If he doesn't, who cares because we've already, we've already recouped what he's invested. And it's so built around. It's like, that's not how you build sustainable business. No, I remember thinking as a trainer that the ideal client would be one who just did what I told them. Remember thinking that like, if I just got a clutch, just follow what I say and then it'll be great. But that is not an ideal client. First of all, if that doesn't exist, people will hire you and then do what you tell them. But eventually, if they don't understand why and they're not doing it for the right reasons, then they'll stop. They'll just stop doing it. The real successful model is getting a client to trust you. That's important. How do you do that? What you build vulnerability and honesty and you, you set the expectations realistically. You don't, you know, oversell or lie or any of that stuff. But then it's about teaching them so that they know why they're doing what they're doing. So they become educated. Not only do they understand, but then they value it because then they'll want to continue it. It's not about losing 30 pounds. It's about how do we get you in a place where this doesn't ever come back. And if I were to be gone, that you would have the tools that would allow you to maintain this. And again, this is the successful model. Like I had a lot of pride that my clients, the ones that were with me for a long time, knew more than many, if not most, like new trainers. And it would be funny because they'd go to work out at gyms with their friends or whatever. And they come back and be like, oh my God, I saw this trainer doing this. I saw this trainer doing that. And I heard a trainer talking about this and it's really crazy how much misinformation is out there. And it's like, you know, number one, it made me kind of sad. Like, well, I hope trainers get better. But number two, I felt proud because I was able to educate them. Plus they have to navigate. People have to navigate the world and navigate the diet industry and the supplement industry. And you need to equip your clients not just to do what you tell them, but to know why. Why you do what you do. If you do that, man, you've got clients for life. Yeah. That was always the irony. It was the most educated clients that you built up to that were the ones that were the lifers, the ones that kept coming back. And because, you know, they feed off that knowledge and they feed off the fact that, you know, you're providing them tools that they're applying. It's working. And it's, and then again, they'll get their family involved or whoever they give you referrals. There's so much more business you receive as a result of like really, you know, pouring that into your client and not like just trying to get to a result. Can you communicate what that sounds like? Like, can you remember like how that conversation switched? Like, oh, it was this way. Like it was, I used to talk to my clients like this when I first started where it was like around five more. Come on, you got this. Like it was more around that, right? How many reps pushing them, getting hired? And then when did it, when did it switch over to the teaching and how does that sound different from the client? It was an evolution from explaining when the questions would arise because that's the first thing that happens. They're like, well, why, why are you making me stop now? I feel like I could do four more reps and then I will explain or whatever. It was an evolution from there to telling them before the question would pop up. So like, look, we're going to do this set right here. I'm going to tell you to stop. You're going to feel like you could probably do five more. Forecasting. But here's why we do it this way. Yeah. And then I'll explain kind of what's happening there. But because if you tell them before it happens, people, well, they, first off, you really come across what we were talking about because they experience it. Like, okay, I'm going to tell you to eat in this particular way. Here's what's going to happen. You're going to feel like you can't eat anymore. Eating that much protein is very challenging. You're going to feel like, you know, you're going to want to do this. You're going to want to do that. Here's why you don't want to do those things. Or like my favorite one was I'd get a new client. I'd say, okay, we're going to. This is how it's going to work. We're going to do a set. We're going to rest for about two minutes. You're going to feel ready 30 seconds later, but that doesn't mean that we're training the right way. I'm not giving you a rest period because you need to rest because you can't do another set. I'm giving you a rest period so we can replenish ATP, train the proper adaptation signals. What does that mean? And we talk about it and then we would do it. That was the evolution. Yeah. For me, like part of it was, I guess there's a transitional period where it was, okay, oh, I got to educate them right out of the gates. And I got to tell them why we're doing all this in the workout. And so I would prescribe this workout ahead of time, have it all written out, or whether it's a diet plan, I'm kind of going through and I'm trying to educate. And then it's just like, you realize none of that sticks. And literally I have to figure out where they're at when they come into the gym. Yeah. And so I have to ask them very specific questions and find out where their energy's at. They get sleep. Like, you know, how much stress are they in right now with work and, you know, the relationships and, you know, what do they tend to grab at lunch? You know, what do they tend to do this? You ask them like real specific questions about like what's happening right now. And then I'm able to steer them a lot more effectively. You know, it's funny about what you're both are saying. You know what it sounds a lot like? Like parenting. Oh, no. Exactly. I'm serious. And it's funny because we talked to them the other day about how like we all talk about how when our kids ask stuff like that you don't just ever say like, because I told you so, you know, or because dad said so. Like I always want to be able to communicate to my son why he can't do this or why I'm telling him no. And like I'm going to, I'm going to explain it. Not because I feel like I need to give my son a reason more so so I could educate him on the process of like, why this is going to make you a better human? Why, why daddy doesn't just let you stay up till, you know, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock at night and eat candy at 9 o'clock after dinner. Like why do we do these things versus just saying, because I said so, it's so similar to the same, you know, trajectory that you follow it as a, as a good coach and trainer. You first start off, it's like, this is what it takes to get loose body fat. You have to follow these macros. You just do what I say and I'm going to motivate you. Then it turns into this like explaining every detail along the way. And then even further is like figure out where they're at and meeting them. It's not like, okay, I might have this plan to teach nutrition and teach like program design. It's like, oh shit, they're not even ready for that. Like where this person is at, they're still trying to even justify it. Why the fuck am I here? Yeah. Why am I even coming to this thing? My doctor told me I need to be here. It's timing. Yeah. And so where, where can I, where can I show them like that part first and then explain the why behind everything that we're doing just hearing you both talk about them. Like, oh my God, it sounds so much of your philosophy around parenting. Yeah. It's like one of the hallmarks of a really, like a truly successful good trainer is whether or not clients continue to exercise properly after the trainer is no longer training them. If they continue on this lifestyle, if they've, if they've created permanent or helped encourage these permanent changes, that's the real hallmark of a successful trainer, not whether or not your clients get results in 30 days, 60 days or whatever and then fall off. That's, that's easy. Everybody does that. But if you do it right, it's like, you know, you know, it's funny you brought up parenting. Jessica had this, she said this quote to me that stuck on me a long time ago where she said, your kids are going to be adults for a lot longer than their kids. And so I thought about that. It's like, you know, the hard times that you have with your kids where you're like struggling with them. It's like, you know, how are they going to look back on this as an adult? You know, maybe now when they're 12, you know, whatever, annoyed that dad did this or whatever, but when they're 30, 35, 40, 40, whatever, they look back and like, oh man, I'm glad, I'm glad you taught me that way because, you know, because you're an adult for a lot longer than your kid, you know? And it sticks with you. It sticks with you. I mean, that stat of the amount of days that we'll spend with our kids after 18, compared to the first 18, it always sticks with me. I mean, I think that's crazy to think that the first 18 years, you're going to spend most of the time you'll ever spend with them. Also, this month's sale is MAPS Anabolic, half off in MAPS Anabolic Advanced, also half off. If you're interested, just click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, back to the show. I had a challenging conversation with my, with my aunt over the weekend. So my brother, we baptized my nephew, which is great honors, really awesome. My brother's just such a great dad. But we're up there and my family has a family culture plus the culture where, and when you grow up with this, it's just how things are. And then you get older and you go, wait a minute, maybe we should do this a little different. But the way things are is if a little kid, like little kids, if they're asked to give someone a kiss, they're supposed to give them a kiss, it's respect. That's how it's sold. No, it's respectful, it's respectful. And I never challenged that until relatively recently. And then, you know, you look at it now and Jessica helps me with this. I look at it now and I go, you know, telling my three year old, they have to kiss a person because they're asking them or because they're making them feel guilty or because they're offering them a cookie. That's not really a good, you know, like... When you unpack it like that, it sounds really bad. Well, this was a struggle for me for a long time because it makes me feel like I'm denying my own arm, you know what I mean? Because it's my colt, it's what I grew up with. But I remember, you know, Jessica made the point, she goes, number one, if anybody ever takes advantage of a kid, it's almost always someone they know. And it's almost always because the kid feels like they have to listen, obey, or because they were guilted or given gifts. Like exactly the ways that people in my family like to convince kids. So my family has a big problem with this, right? So when they come up to give them a kiss and my son says no, oh, come on, oh, you make me sad. Oh, I'll give you a dollar or I'll give you this or whatever. So I'm starting to really stand my ground and I'm like, no, and I tell them in front of them, you don't have to kiss them if you don't want to. So we had a conversation. I got a message. I got a message from my aunt. We're going back and forth and I said, you know, he's going to be, I said, right now he's three. So he has to learn that above and beyond, whether or not an adult tells them respect or whatever, that if he feels uncomfortable, that he has to feel confident enough to say no. Now, as you get older, you know, you understand, you know, you greet people or whatever, but especially at this age, like he needs to learn, he can say no to a kiss or a hug. So I'm having this conversation with my aunt. I think she understood, but it's just like a call. Did she end up texting you afterwards? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're going back and forth and I explained it to her. I said, you know, here's the irony. They make it so anxious and awkward that it only, my son only asserts himself more. Yeah. It's like, if you guys just relaxed, if he said no, I don't want to kiss you and you're like, no problem, buddy. He's a little rebel in the making. Yeah. And if you left it, then he tends to like relax and come around. But if you push it, then he's going to keep pulling back and I'm going to let him pull back. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I was raised like, no, you kiss people when they say you kiss people. Yeah. And if you think about that. You clean your plate, you eat every last morsel. Yeah, dude, I'm like, that isn't good. Yeah. I mean, I felt like that was the challenge I went through with the candy, right? Everybody wants to reward the kid with candy. It's like their bribery tool. Yeah. It's like how they get him to do whatever they want him to do. Yeah. And I'm just like, no, I don't want him to, like, and boy, getting the family to like understand that, like, it's, listen, it's, I'm not saying, and I remember the defense was always like, oh, man, he's only going to rebel when he gets older and he's going to eat all the candy in the world because you tell, I'm like, That's not the point. That's not true. I'm like, he's going to have all those things. I'm not denying him that for the rest of his life. He's just at such a young age right now. That, oh, when somebody offers you candy, you do whatever they tell him to do, or like you do these behaviors for those things. Like, if you want that relationship with my son, go build it. You know, go fucking play with him. Go teach him numbers. Go do puzzles with him. Go play on the playground. I want to easily, I want to give him candy. Yeah. It's like such a cheap shortcut. It's like, relax, dude. You'll have an opportunity to have an ice cream cone with him. I'm not going to deny that when he's at a certain age, but like right now it's not the time. It's one of the hardest things though, people are raised a particular way. They grow up in their family culture. It becomes so much a part of who you are that challenging it. It's like, what do you mean? I grew up fine. It's like, that's not the point. And you kind of did. Yeah. According to you. Yeah. No, I mean, I'm making jokes, but you know, like the cleaning up your plate type of deal. Like, no, you have to finish it. Yeah, I was big in my family. Like, what are you teaching? Like we don't live in a world with scarcity. Now I understand if it was a thousand years ago, like, yeah, listen, I just killed this animal. I don't know if I'll be able to kill one another week or two. Nothing with the waste. But, but now it's, when I was a kid, literally we would be at my grandma's house and they, we'd all have food put in front of us. And my grandma will come out and be like, all right, whoever eats, finishes their plate first gets $5. Like encouraging us to stuff our face. Yeah. Or they put a timer. You got five minutes. It was huge. Yeah. With the boomers. Yeah. That must have been like their MO. And you also, you also want kids to do things. And this takes longer. This is why I get why it's a struggle for people. You want kids to learn to do things from their own internal motivation, right? Like for example, people have said this before, but I think it's a good point. You don't want your kid to not steal because they're afraid of getting caught or because they want to impress their parent. That you want them to not steal because it's wrong. Right. But that takes longer to teach because it's easy to get a kid to do what you want through fear or to just make you, make you make mom and dad happy. Right. But so it takes longer to get them to like kind of figure it out themselves and go, no, this is actually the right way. It just takes longer, I think, is why people don't do it that way. No, that's what it is. Yeah. Because it's like, I know what they're doing. They're doing it because they want this bond and relationship with them. And obviously you don't need candy to build a bond and relationship with the kid. Yeah. But the other way takes longer. The other way is like, oh, you're going to have to eat warm up to him and then do the thing, play with the things that he wants to play with and you go through the phases of he's into hanging out with you then he's not into hanging out. It just takes time versus, you know, if you pull out that candy and like, hey, you want to suck her? He's going to say yes every single time. And so it's just a shortcut. It is. And then you revisit your own. Like my family has no boundaries, bro. No. You know, like still to this day, if any of my man. I want, I think I want, I want your family and Katrina's family. They will get along great. All of us still. I think they'd all, they'd all be like, oh, we're the same. At least your family's party, dude. Yeah. What do you mean? Oh, you had the, you had the 50th anniversary this weekend. Bro. Just to give a speech to 100 people. Well, you had to do a speech. No, no. Actually you had to entertain them. Yeah. It wasn't just this. Whoa. I didn't know this. It was like, yeah. So, and I didn't know it either. I just like walked into it. So yeah, dude. So it was my parents 50th anniversary. It was a big deal. Like, and I knew this was coming a couple of months ago, like that my mom wanted to put this together. And I was like, anything I could do to help and, you know, you know, trying to like provide money to buy stuff to get like a DJ and like all this and film it and like make it kind of like a big deal. And so like she did. She got a DJ and invited like 150 people. And I'm like, wow, you know 150 people. That's like legit. Like I don't know 150 people. I would invite, you know, like that's a lot. And 100 people like showed up. Wow. And then so just to give you some perspective, it was like the age range was around like 70 to 90. Like, no joke. There was a lot of sounds like a good time. Yeah. Okay. Now add now add a few of these other elements. It was a costume party. No. What kind of? Why? What kind of costume? You might ask. I don't know. Yeah. What kind? What's the theme? No theme. Wait, wait, wait. They put the. Any costume? You just put a costume on and you come and you celebrate my parents 50th. That was really the instructions? Yes. What kind of costume do people wear? You had like, you had like cowboys there. You had like, you had this one guy who was like in a sheriff's outfit. I, okay. And, and, okay. This is me pre speech and everything. And I like I wrote all this stuff down. Like, so the, the premise for me to go up there was like, my dad was like, you know, have fun with it. You know, roast us even a little bit and you know, like, like tell some stories, make it fun. Like, okay. He's like coaching you on how to. I'll like, I'll figure out. No, the whole thing was a big like, they already had a vision for this thing that nobody knew. You know what I mean? And it was like, my mom is very much like that. We'll have like this crazy vision for something. And like, nobody's on board. But like, you find out day of like, this is what you're doing. I'm like, oh, that's what I'm doing. And even my cousin who was like a sister of me, she lived with us for a while. Like she was there and like, she turned into like, like, she did the DJ's job because he didn't want to like, talk on the mic at all. So she was like MCing like the whole thing. She didn't find out about that till day of. And so it was like, just to read kind of the room, this guy kind of walks in, I'm like looking at everybody coming in their costumes. It's great. You know, see a bunch of like old people, like kind of putting their, their best efforts into this. And they all, you know, like, they got like fake mustaches and, you know, they got flapper outfits and like there's like, like, I don't know, gas station attendant, like, just so insanely random. This guy comes up in like a sheriff outfit. I'm like, oh, the strippers here, everybody. Nothing. That did land up. Did not land. Okay. And this before I even did the speech and I'm like, oh, fuck. That was, that was my closer, you know, like I am so, so in for it. Justin, I gotta say this, Justin was up there talking to me a little bit about this and he goes, I thought I got over my fear of speech. He's all, and it just pulled it out of me. I told you guys, since the beginning of this podcast, anybody's been listening long enough like this is not my jam. Like I'm not the guy that's going to, hey guys, you know, I have things to say. Like I'm not the guy that's going to get up in front of everybody just to like, hey, say things. And so now you add all these like elements in there and there's no alcohol. Are you petrified? Are you petrified and no alcohol? This is a dry party. This is okay. This is all church people. This is all like, like potluck kind of vibes. So was the whole room just quiet every time you kind of make a joke? Quiet. My cousins and like my brother, so my brother was up there with me. Maybe they were hearing aids. I was going to make a joke about that too. I was like, hey, let's turn our mirror clears up. And you know, let's party. No, my closer, I think I talked about, I was like, everybody here, you know, I was like, there's probably a lot of parents here that went through the 70s, you know, and you all probably had water beds. I just want you to know that like, I know what that is now as an adult, you know, and then nothing, you know, that was as clean as I could get for like an innuendo. Like, hey, you guys reply fucking, you know, water bed style, you know, like, I told Justin to spike the punch with an address. That would have made things way more interesting. But you know what, like again, this is me in my, like my parents loved it. Like everybody had a good time and it was like, you know, for, for their speed is just a different speed. And so you're talking about like, like this was a total cultural thing. I grew up stuffy, like conservative, like I forgot about all this stuff. Cause I've been hanging out with you guys so long that being in that environment again, I remember now, like even talking with a lot of the, their friends growing up, they're like, I don't know if you ever said a word in my head. I'm like, yeah, I didn't want to say anything to you guys. Like I had to censor everything. What am I going to talk about? You know, like I got nothing caught on with you. You're that cute little chubby boy. You just sat there in the corner and was just like, cause I was, I was like, I'm just angry. So what was like the, okay. So you had a DJ there, you had imagined food. So was it like a, like dining, dance hall theme vibe? What was it like? Yeah. So I mean, and like there was a, my mom had this lady kind of coordinating dance moves. And so it was like line dancing kind of a vibe thing going on and, and they played like some old tunes and it was, the music was great, but hilariously enough after we do our kind of like shtick, me and my brother, I brought him up and we're trying. I was like, I can't do this much longer. It was like 20 minutes. Like I'm up there like trying to like, come up with stories. That's a long time. Throws me like, yeah. He's like, so remember that one story I told you guys about the yellow jackets of my, when my friend and I were through a rock at it. And then like, you know, somebody got really stung and hurt and all that. He made my dad, he's like, oh, tell that story. It's hilarious. I'm like, it just makes me sound like an asshole. I was like, this is not good for me. I forgot about that story. I remember that story. He told it on the podcast. Yeah. And so, I mean, I, I tried to have fun with it. You probably bullied someone. Yeah. Yeah. Like a hundred percent. And like we're just like hiding my in this car like, Oh no, you know, like poor you, you know, we did this to you. So it was, it was painfully cringe and awkward, but like everybody had fun and it was, it turned out great. So it was a success for them. It was a success for them. Okay. And they're 50 years married? 50 years together. Wow. So it's substantial. I feel like Doug's hell of a piss he didn't get invited. Yeah, mine. I couldn't use Doug there, dude. I wouldn't use Doug. Doug, you got me, right? Yeah. Somebody, just somebody to anchor in the audience that like help, you know, cause we do live events and it's like, at least I can get some, you know, some laughs in there and like, it just was like, I just, I haven't like gone up in front of people like bombed, like in a long time. Like, and that was like, that was rough, dude. I'm still like, That's a long time. Yeah. I feel it. In my guts. Dylan recorded the whole thing. Yeah. Was Dylan there? He was there. Oh no way. And we were talking like, we're going to really have to spice this up with some graphics, sound effects or something. Laugh track. Yeah. Like a little sitcom laugh track in the back. That would help, dude. It would be hilarious. Would have helped. But yeah. So I had that. I had another funny thing kind of. So Friday before all that, like my cousin flew in early and like she got married recently. And so I was like kind of like, I'll hang out with you guys. I was by myself, my kids and Courtney were gone, which that didn't help either. They weren't at the party to kind of help, you know, me sort of riff. But so we, I was like, maybe I'll go to a concert and I looked and I found a battle of the bands. And so I was like, oh cool. You guys want to go hit this up and just, you know, have some drinks, whatever. And so we did that. We went to dinner and we go to this battle of the bands and we get there and it was like, you know, this one little roped off section near the bar and nothing but teeny boppers. And I was like, oh, this is like, this is like high school kids. He said teeny boppers. Teeny boppers. Is that not a, that's a word. Yeah, it is. We used to say that back in the day. That's a thing. So a bunch of kids. Nobody says that anymore. Yeah. They're like, wow, this is interesting. Young band up there. They're probably like, you know, 18, 20 looking ish. Maybe I don't know. I have a bad gauge with all that, but we just, we're kind of talking and we're listening to the bands. Next one comes up. Younger, you know, next one comes, this was like a high school. You went to a battle of the bands. I'm like, what the fuck are we doing here? We're like such creeps. You know, I was like, I'm drinking. I'm not even anybody's parent. You know, I'm like, oh, so you know somebody up there? I don't know anybody. I'm just here. I'm just here. I'm just a 40 year old dude. Cheers. Yeah. What a creep. Which was your kid? Yeah. It's not my weekend. I like being around, when I used to train, you know, people in that age group, I used to love seeing old people, old couples together because old couples have been together for a long time. The way they argue is so different. It's funny. Yeah. It's so different because I think once, after a certain point, I think you just like, it's like, whatever. You put 50 years in with someone like, I mean, I mean, Katrina and I only made 13 years. I can only imagine what 50 is. You know what they're going to say before they say it. Yeah. You know what makes them mad. You know what makes them mad. You know what they're irritated. You know what I'm saying? So you can like cut them off when they're even being irritated. I don't know what the fuck you're going to say right now. So there's the, I think there's like such great, I mean, at least the ones that I think that look happy and healthy, successful, that have lasted that long, have this kind of, I don't know, like sarcastic, like, I think a lot of acceptance. Yeah. Like even around the fights and disagreements, there's like sarcastic humor. You can't roll your eyes and move on. Yeah. It's the 700th time we've argued about that. It's like what it is, what it is. Dude, I made a huge supplement blunder this weekend. I took, I bought some bone broth protein from Whole Foods assuming, cause collagen typically tastes good with collagen type protein always typically tastes good. Is it only bland or basic? Typically. Gross, dude. I bought one and it was a bone broth protein chocolate. And I've been spoiled by paleo valleys because it's just so good. And I thought, oh, it was gross. But I looked at the ingredients and it was a beef bone, chicken bone, fish bone. Oh, what? So I had a little bit of a taste to it. Yeah, dude. It was gross. What do you think the point of mix in the different bones? Different types of, I think it's just a marketing ploy, different types of whatever collagen or whatever. It was gross, dude. I literally threw it away. I drank one serving of it and tossed it. And tossed it. But I'm, we're super spoiled with the paleo valley chocolate. It took me a long, nothing comes close to that. It took me a long time to get on board with that. You got me on that. And that's actually, I prefer that now. That's gotten to a point now where unless I'm making like where I'm cooking with it. Yeah. Or like I would prefer that now. It's like it just mixing that was just some water and almond milk. It goes down so smooth. Dude, did you guys hear about that middle school in Beverly Hills with those kids getting kicked out? Yeah, we were in school so we don't have names and stuff. But you would happen? No. This is going to, this is, and I know why it went national. It's like national news or whatever. Probably because it's going to happen more and more. I guess some kids made some deep fake nudes of other kids in the school. Oh, wow. Wow. They were fakes? Yeah, they were fakes. Because remember there was, there was that story we told at the high school level where there was kids that were passing around. Images. Yeah, actual images. Now that's happened before and this is different now because you have AI now. Wow. Where I could take a picture of you and it can make it realistically look like poor kids, man. You're naked. It's just so much out there. So even if it's not real, imagine being a kid like that and then there's pictures circulating of you. Was it, was it, one of you guys that was talking about that, that was the direction like pornography was going to where they're going to be able to put like anybody's face on, like you put some super famous model or whatever that on the body and stuff like they're on the, yeah, on the body. So it looks like it matches really them. That's going to be, and how they're going to stop that. That's the thing. Once it cats out the bag, like how are you going to keep that from happening? This reminds me of Adam Sandler movie. There was like this kid that, he was like, they found like his stash of porn in the bed or whatever. And then he took a picture of like the babysitter's face and put it on there. You know what I mean? Yeah. Now this is like that on steroids. Well, this is like that. And then it gets shared and it looks realistic. Wow. So imagine being a kid. Like I said, and you receive a picture of your friends like, dude, just imagine you. Yeah, you're that horny like teenage boy. And, and you know, it's like you're, you're fixated on like your babysitter or whatever. It's like, this is getting, it's getting, and because it's going to look so realistic, it's a feels like a violation. You know what I mean? Like you can imagine seeing a picture of yourself as an adult. You'd be like, that's not me obviously, but imagine as a kid, other kids in your school seeing it. Oh my God. That's, that's nuts. Like how do you get rid of it? These phones are, yeah, something else. Dude, this is going to be, it's going to be weird. How do you even, how do you even regulate that? That's what I'm trying to think. I'm seriously trying to wrap my brain around. How do you even stop this from happening? I don't think you can. I mean, you know what ends up happening is that you, we get to a place where, which is what I would think would end up happening is schools start outlawing phones on campuses. Like it gets to a point where it's like, it's too impossible to police. Therefore, you just can't have them here. Like you, you have to go off premises. You can't be here. That way these kids can't be sharing, showing, doing any of that stuff anymore. Do you think that in the future they'll regulate these deep, fake AI so that they can't do this with anyone without their permission? Cause I mean, on one hand, you're like, it's not really a picture of you. So what's the big deal? But on the other hand, it's like it looks so real. I mean, let's, cause they're getting so good. Here's the deal. This has been happening a long time. It's just now it's gotten so accurate. That's the point. Yeah. Right. So it's like they never stopped it before. Like this, this was always happening. You tell fake. Right. So also now because it's because the, because the Photoshop is so good. Now we have to worry about that. That's like, the technology to detect it's always going to be behind. Yeah. And, and, and the, and that's it with images. It's good. What follows is video. I've already got caught up sending stuff to like my buddies. Like, Oh my God, you see this in the, it's like these old interviews of like, like super famous. Like the one I had just sent was like an ESPN reporter, right? Really famous ESPN reporter. And it was an old interview like in the 80s of him. And the way he was talking was just like, Oh my God. Like, I can't believe he said that in an interview. Oh, I saw that. You sent that to me. Yeah. That wasn't real. It wasn't real. It was doctor. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I don't know if you've seen it, but I think you've seen it. Yeah. I mean, you don't really, and if the edit is so good that you swear it, now if you're an evil dictator, right? Like, and you're seeing this is a powerful resource, you know, in the future. And, you know how the first step for a lot of these evil dictators and tyrants is to like, throw out all the books throughout all the, you know, previous history and like education. And, you know, the most important twist history. Well, you know, the Soviets there, I mean, they obviously didn't have the technology, but there were pictures of, like, if you got executed, they would erase you from all the photos. And so they, you would see photos of like Stalin. You just don't exist. And it looks like he's by himself, but the original photos with him with this person that got executed. Yeah. Type of deal. I don't, you know, so here's what I think is going to happen. And I heard this point of the whole of like, authenticity. I know. Who's going to be the holder of that? Yeah. Is that a good thing? No. That doesn't necessarily fix it. The person behind that. Yeah, exactly. Just give somebody else like a crazy amount of power and control. Are we going to be in a post media time? So I think the move is like where the direction I would go, which is the, you just, that's a tool. It's not necessary. The kids can go to school and not have phones at school. We have fucking, we'll put pay phones back and you can call your family. Just like we did, you know, 25 years ago, like they do not need to have back. They do not need to have those there. Like you can, they can be taught and I think that's the best way to do it. What they do at home with their parents, that's the parents job. Now you're home with your mom and dad, like it's their job to make sure you're not doing weird shit like that. But at least it's, if I'm in schools, I would think that that would be the move instead of trying to have some, hire some company to come in. Generally, everyone's just going to be like, I don't know what to believe. I don't believe any of it unless I see it right in front of my face. I mean, to me, it's still, it still fits perfectly into the plugged in unplugged narrative that I keep talking about. Like I just think that it'll, you, if you choose to be on, you choose to be part of the reason why you choose to be unplugged. You're like, half that stuff is fake and manipulate. And then there's a, there's a narrative around it. They're trying to tell story. They're trying to tell you. Oh, well no, it has the seal on it. That's real. And they're all in the, the place. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's the direction that we're speaking of media. So is this legit? Mike Tyson is going to fight. Jake. Dude. By the way, do you guys know how old Mike Tyson is? 55 or 57? No, seven, 58. I think when the fight happens. So he's not like, did you see the videos of him working out still? Yeah. Yeah. Mike Tyson, but hey, listen, I don't want him to fight them. I know, I don't think it's healthy or healthy thing to do no matter what. But what do we always say? The last thing to go is what? A boxer's power. They're power. But there's speed, agility and their change. He's one of the most powerful boxers ever. Okay. Yep. And I don't know. I think he looks, he looks light enough and quick enough on his feet that if he can elude some of his punches, I mean, here's what I think. I'm way more interested in the business side of this. I think it's so clear. I mean, I'm not the right person, you know, go watch Tony Jefferies talk about if it's a healthy or the right thing to do. And so then I know he posted a whole video on it and his view from a boxing perspective, which I'm not an authority in that space. From a business perspective, I'm fascinated by it. Like brilliant fucking move, even more interesting that they went through Netflix instead of a paper view. Yeah. So this fight is going to be for free. Yeah. Maybe one of the most watch fights ever. How are they going to do that? I think that I don't, I looked up to see what Netflix was paying Jake Paul and Mike Tyson and there's nothing on it. I can't find it anywhere. Maybe Andrew can dig, but I looked at Netflix is paying him fat. Yeah. Oh, have to be. So I think Netflix and OK, and real easy to estimate that Jake Paul, his last five fights. All you have to do is see what his paper view pool is. I don't know what it was. Let's just say for argument's sake, it was $50 million, right? Okay. So he, he knows he can generate 50 million on his own and they have this on our streaming platform. So we offer them each 75 million. And then their desired outcome is millions and millions of people watch this thing and a percentage of them don't have. Yeah. They forget to cancel. Yeah. They don't have a subscription. So they have to pay at least the $12 to get in the first time and then a percentage of those people will remain coming or staying with Netflix for the next six months to a year and they recoup all their money and they wouldn't do it if it didn't make sense. It's got to make sense. And what's great to me about this is that Mike Tyson being 58 is well past this prime. Well, I think the oldest like boxer that was successful was forming at 45. Oh, right. Was he 45 or 44? That's, and by the way, there's a big difference. The older you get, okay, the bigger the difference becomes between, you know, every decade. So 35, you know, 25 to 35, there's a difference. There's a bigger difference 35 to 45. Every decade is, so Mike Tyson is so far out of his prime, but the fact that he's able to pull so many people because of how impactful he was in the boxer. Now, did he fight Hollyfield years back? No, he was a long time ago. Somebody older. Not really. It was like four years ago. It wasn't that, yeah, it wasn't like, it was at a Jake Paul fight. He fought another boxer. Tyson did. Yes. See what Tyson's last fight was. Yeah, I'd like, you know, so, okay, because they're friends, right? Jake and him are friends. I think this is a complete like, let the exhibition to them, you know what I'm saying? Like they're going to hype it up. Oh, calling each other out and the stair down and the shit talking. I mean, that's Jake Paul's a master at that, but there's got to be this like behind the scenes. Hey, listen, like, you know, like don't hit me that hard. Talk or like, hey, I'll do this with you. But then what does it say? Oh, 2005. Well, he fought Roy Jones Jr. Oh yeah, 2020. Oh, so he did four years ago, but did you guys watch that? No, I didn't watch it. I mean, you could tell he gets fatigued more, right? Faster or whatever. And he would, by the way, he was already that fighter. He was a fighter who, if he didn't win in the first three to four, I forget what his stats were. Well, the longer you went, the better the artist. Yeah. Yeah. If he, if he wasn't knocking someone out in the first four rounds, then it was now, do you guys hope that Tyson just knocks him out? Of course. Yeah, man. I mean, he's a mastery behind Jake Paul. Yeah. He's positioned himself as the ultimate healer. Everybody knows he's the ultimate healer. So he just goes and finds these fights that people would be interested in seeing him get knocked out. And by, it'd be interesting, do you know what he's, I don't know what his last fight pulled, but that's the least interest that I've heard. I wasn't interested at all as the last one. Like, I bet you don't even know who he fought, right? Yeah. Yeah. So no one was even paying attention to the fights. Speaking of fights, did you see, so did you follow the whole fight? So he's the one who, he's the one who was the MMA fighter, the heavyweight MMA fighter that fought Tyson Fury. And everybody said that Tyson Fury actually lost. And they were so surprised that Tyson Fury is like the baddest boxer on the planet right now, right? And everyone said that Francis really won that fight, but they gave it to Tyson because it was in boxing class. Everybody was super pissed off about it. So then this guy is like one of Tyson Fury's nemesis in the boxing world, but not considered to be as good as Tyson. So, you know, Brandon Shaw, all these people were talking about the fight saying that Francis was just going to just destroy him. And he got laid. I like bucked. Francis did? Yeah. Yeah, he got put to sleep in the second round. Wow. Yeah. It was gnarly. What do you got there, Doug? Exactly Andrew. Andrew. But you got a separate thing from Netflix. So Netflix, they paid two tennis players, a million dollars each in the last stream live event they did. So that gives an idea how much Paul and Tyson are going to make, although I'm sure they will, but separately, they just signed a five billion dollar broadcasting deal to host WWE. Five billion? Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Okay, so they're making moves in the sports world. What's up? Give me where the ticker on Netflix. Tell me where the I'm serious. I mean, think about it. You take WWE, you start moving into the getting these streaming and fighting at these fights. Brilliant strategy. By the way, speaking of pro-restars and stuff, have you got Justin will know this? Humiliation. Humiliation ritual. Humiliation ritual. Yes. So John Cena came out to present an award. I think of the Oscars and he came out naked wearing a sign about symbolism and and people are posting this on X, which, you know, you kind of illuminati thing. Yeah. And they're saying, Oh, this was part of this humiliation ritual. Apparently the quote and quote illuminati part of, you know, they think the Will Smith and all that. But what you need to do to follow them and be a part of whatever is you have to also go through a humiliation ritual. And part of that means if you're a guy, you'll come out dressed like a girl. You make yourself look like an idiot. You have to embarrass yourself in front of everybody. And so they're saying that this was John Cena's. He came out like naked with like a sign. Yeah. Like, oh, here he is with the illuminati humiliation ritual. Yeah. It was weird. There's a lot of weird stuff around that. I mean, I'm listening. Yeah. I'm all temple. Yeah. The octopus murders. Murders. Explain this. It's just. Is there too much in there for you guys to explain? Yeah, there is. There is a lot in there. And honestly, it like Doug's point it like it ends where it doesn't like it, you know, conclude for sure. But it tells enough that makes you go like, oh, yeah, they were just saving their own ass, you know, at the end of that. So it's ended that way because it was just like, it was pretty clear, you know, where where a lot of meddling was happening. So the, the idea of the octopus is that it's like in the way that's kind of the premise of this, this Netflix doc series goes is like, this reporter is like, this investigative reporter is like going into like this, this, this like suicide that happened to another, to another reporter. Let me guess, the reporter was getting close to like uncovering some shit. Yes. Yes. And as the, so that's like the center of like him trying to figure this out. And the more he dug, it had all these layers, layers and layers of that went crazy deep into this conspiracy, crazy deep into this conspiracy, crazy like, yeah. And they were all interconnected. So like he got too close to some crazy shit. Some real big. Yeah. Big time stuff. Have you guys ever seen a list of the people that apparently, I don't know if this is like confirmed, apparently the people connected to the Clintons that have committed suicide? Yes. Or have died. So Patrick by David did it. Did you not watch that? I did. So Patrick by David. They were talking to Anthony Wiener, right? Yeah. The guy who's, who's friends, family friends of the Clintons, right? And he, he put him on a spot and literally had the entire list and he like, he got so mad. I don't know if he watched that interview or not, but he got so pissed because he was like challenging him on like, here are all the people connected to the Clintons that have like died randomly. It's like the list is crazy big. It's almost, I know I've seen it before. I don't know if it's confirmed. It's very past the coincidental range I have something else. That's great. And I'll have Andrew or Doug look up for me to confirm this because it blew my mind. I actually heard Tony Robbins say it. Tony Robbins said this on an interview and I was like, get the fuck out of here. I gotta write this down so I tell the guys this because it threw me way off. Okay. 2007 iPhone one comes out. So every iPhone, if you bought every iPhone from 2007 till now, you would have spent now 20,600 dollars on iPhones. Okay. Seems that's logical math. Sure. If instead of buying the iPhone, you put the exact same money that you would have bought the iPhone into buying the shares of the stock, how much would you have of Apple? Of Apple. How much would you have today? Oh my God. Two hundred thousand dollars. Two hundred and six million dollars. Whoa. What are you? Dude. Wow. Yeah. I found another version of this. And it's even more money. 367 million. Is that insane? That's crazy. I know. You're like me. You're like, sit here and go like, that doesn't even math. That can't be right, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's literally, look it. Wow. That to buy. I need my time machine. In Apple stock, you'd be sitting pretty, wow. Wow. That's crazy. Isn't that nuts? Yeah. You know, it makes you, of course this is hindsight, right? But it's like, if you're watching culture around you and everybody's jumping on something, and it's like a cultural phenomenon. Right. If you're smart, you're thinking yourself, how do I capitalize on everyone's behaviors moving in that direction right now, rather than jumping on board or just jumping on board and getting the phone yourself? That's crazy numbers right there. What's so interesting to me about that is just like, you know, how many people are living paycheck to paycheck? And keep buying iPhones. But they bought every iPhone. And it's like that, that's a little more than financial freedom right there. Dude, I saw that. I was floored. Is that not insane? That's crazy to me. I know. I'm speechless. I was the same. I did not bullet. So that number is even bigger than the one that he said. And I was like, no way. That makes me upset. It does. Hurts my, hurts my. I'll go, I'll go in a positive note. I just read an interesting study on, do you know that there's an exercise gender gap? Have you guys heard of this? An exercise gender gap? Yeah. It's actually, it's not what you think it is. So they did a big study on men and women and looked at the health effects of cardio, strength training, whatever. And they found in these studies that women get a larger positive effect in terms of mortality risk than men do with the same time being spent exercising. Is it. So in other words, I'll give you, I'll give you, watch this. Men reach their maximal survival benefit from, and they talked about brisk walking and cycling. Okay. On this one. So men reach their maximal survival benefit based on these studies by doing this level of exercise about five hours per week. Women got the same effect from two and a half hours a week in terms of the, the mortality effect benefit strength training. Men reach their peak of benefits for mortality from three days a week. Women only needed one to get the same effect. Huh. I'm trying to think of why that would be the case. Is it because of, I mean, is it, I mean, it'd be interesting to see if they tease out like professions and things like that. Is it because men are going to be typically more physical, have more laborious type of jobs? Like, and so the difference of like that they would get benefit would take more physical strength in the building, which is if women have jobs that are less physical, it would take just a minimal amount for them to see big gains. I have to really think about this and why this is the case. Off the top of my head, I do know that the female hormone profile is largely protective in comparison to the male hormone profile when it comes to longevity. We know this, right? Women live longer than men. And so I'm wondering if it has to do with that. I'm wondering if it has to do with how the male body maybe, it's supposedly more resistant to physical stress, but does that also mean then the adaptations are not as big? It would mean that. If we are more... Or maybe women get a negative effect when men would get a positive because of the too much stress on the body. It's interesting. I mean, nonetheless, it's super fascinating. Very. They need way less. They need less and get better results or the same results with less work. So does that mean they have more stress in general or than men? Or is that like... I mean, that's... I can't even speculate on that. Yeah. I don't know. I find it very... Now, here's as interesting as when I manage gyms and stuff, the people that were more likely to overdo it were women. They were more likely to come in way too often, go too often. Oh, you think so? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I agree with that. I don't know if I agree with that. In terms of volume versus intensity, I would say men, intensity of women in volume. Yes. Just frequency and showing up and going on. Yeah, okay. I mean, because of course the classes are geared towards attracting women. So the class mentality and philosophy of training, which that's probably right. But intensity was always my men. Like men are... My female clients were reluctant to add weight to the bar and push themselves like that. They were more comfortable with like, oh, I do this much weight for this exercise, sticking to that. They were reluctant to push the intensity where men were always the opposite. They were like, oh, I could do more. And you're like, no, you shouldn't actually. That's plenty for you. Your form's already off. No, no, put more on there. So from that perspective, I think men overdo it. Yeah. Interesting though, right? That is interesting. I got to really think about what could potentially be... Yeah, I got to bring something up. I was like... I had a day off Friday and I was just kind of watching TV. I never watched daytime TV. So this was all like an education for me. The commercials in two, like there's still like TV that's like network TV that has like commercials and have these... Only when I'm in hotels do I see it. I'm always fascinated is like that hasn't evolved at all. It's just like, I'm not used to it anymore. And there's this like brand of CBD that was pitching their product. And I was like... On TV? Yeah. I was like, how are they pitching this and what's their unique characteristics and like how are they like trying to portray this because you know, we work with like the best one out there, but they're talking about like emphasizing that the delivery system for it was like superior to everybody else and that you're going to feel it almost like immediately. Because of the delivery system? I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? What magical science is this? There isn't. You know what's funny is that... It's like the same, the same that creatine falls. I was just going to say if a product comes out, so you know, we work when that's what you're referring to. And they're the best they're the best in the market. But whenever something comes out that works, the next way to differentiate yourself is to come up with a better delivery system. Better delivery system. Better delivery system. And it's like creatine. Yeah, creatine was the same way too. It's like, no, the best stuff is just to play an old boring shit. Like, or they pair it with something else, you know, and they go, oh, you know... More effective. Yeah, because of these reasons. No, cannabinoids are very easily absorbed. Liposomal, you take them with a fat or on oil, they're typically in an oil that you can get orally. You can absorb some of it through the mucosal membranes of the mouth. So you can put it under your tongue or of course, vape it or smoke it. It's very well absorbed. It's not something that your body doesn't absorb or utilize very well. Yeah. There isn't a delivery and that's the problem. That's not like a huge pain point. No, no. I'm like, what is this? No, no, no, no, no. Interesting. I have something interesting for you guys. Did you guys ever watch who watched the Shannon Sharp and the Cat Williams interview? I watched that. That was good. Did you watch that? Oh, did you watch that? I watched about half of it. It was rolling like everybody. So did you hear it? Did you hear Shannon Sharp talk about how much money he made from that one interview from YouTube? Wow. How much? More than he made in any year of his playing in the NFL. Oh, wow. Out of here. And from what? That's just from the just that one interview. You know how many advertisements? So I know his best year in the NFL. He made $5 million for the Broncos one year. No way. So it was more than that. How many views did he get? I don't know where it's at now. Maybe Andrew can pull it up and tell me where it's at. I mean, that's like a definitive interview. Like he was coming out. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's like, I feel like he's been put on the map again right now. Like he's going all over the place now. I know he just did the big Joe Rogan one too, which by the way was a great interview too. I watched the Joe Rogan. See, that was great. And they didn't even get into it. They didn't even get into like, he didn't reference like, like cause he was obviously talking about other comedians and was kind of, you know, throwing shade. And that didn't even come up in the Joe Rogan interview. I was like really surprised by that actually. How many views Andrew? $61 million. And he made more than $5 million. It's a long interview. Yes. So they could. And so, I mean, and you know how you guys know how enough like, I mean, how YouTube works, right? The, how long they stay connected. So it's like one video. Yeah. Cause that's the thing that's always you can get a lot of views on a tiny short video. What's so deceiving about how you get paid on YouTube is like, you cannot just go by subscribers. You cannot just go by views because it's, it's also how long they watch it because. How long they're engaged. Yeah. Because so the way the ad revenue works on there is. So if you watch it, like if you watch that full interview, like I did, by the time I finished the three hours, I probably got hit with, I don't know, 20 YouTube ads. If you make it all the way through. If you only make it through the first five minutes, you only get one ad. Right. You know what I'm saying? That's all that's. And so the drop off rate really matters. And so if it's a really engaging interview that goes three hours long. Yeah. That keeps a majority of that 60 million until the end. Oh man, they're making, I mean, they've made over five million for sure. That one video. Wow. That's crazy. Isn't that wild? We've got to get better at interviewing. I know. Who can we bring back to life that has been out of there? I got another thing that came across that I thought was pretty cool too. So you remember when Elon went over to China and he was trying to work with them and they they fucked him over and they basically stole all his like information like as far as like how he made Tesla. Do you guys remember that? Do you remember that was like we talked about on the show? What was their fall? It was like Lumen or I forget what? Yeah, they tried something. Well, they have they have a they have a new one call. I had I wrote it down because I don't even know how to pronounce it. It's like Yang Wang, Yang Wang Unite. Have you seen this car? No. This actually looks fucking sick. The name is Yang Wang. Yang Wang Unite. Might be Yang Wang. Oh, Yang Wang. Sorry. Could be. I don't know. They're they're entry into the super car, dude. Oh, it looks kind of cool. Oh, it looks super cool, dude. It's like zero. I think zero to 60 and like it's it's supposed to be compete with those. Wow. So it's like zero to 60 in 2.3 or 2.5. I mean, that's you're talking about your Lambo, you know, Aventador and that's cool. Yeah. Isn't that cool? That is very cool. Pretty dope. You think that they stole his. Well, okay. So that's two different conversations. I was just asking if you remember that. So you talked about on the show way back when it was when he went over there, he was working out some sort of partnership with China. And I'm sure somebody on the Internet is going to fucking slam me for this and correct me. So I'm like, don't quote me on how it exactly played out. But I know he went over there to bring Tesla over there. And I remember everybody was giving him shit because he was over in China and he was working with China and so everybody was giving him shit. And then what ended up happening was they basically shut it down or said, no, after they already learned all the technology. Yeah. So they basically brought him over just. Yeah. Said they were going to, you know, introduce Tesla to the China market and all this stuff like that. And then they basically took all what they could learn from him and then basically. There's a lot of companies that get their shit stolen and then sold in China. This is happening a lot. A lot. A lot. Because how do you, how do you like, you know, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? What are you going to do? It's a huge market. It's the government that's involved. Who was, was it Shane Gillis or one of those comedians was talking about that, that's what China is like just the greatest copycat. Totally. Like even their success and their economy over there they didn't create themselves anything. It's like they go over and they've ripped it off of somebody else. They provide all the factories to, you know, build everything. And it's like, okay. I got to show you, I sent you a text I don't know if you could pull it up on the screen. I just learned this. Did you know so medieval churches or churches that are old they have like carpenters and painters going and decorate them. And did you guys know that oftentimes painters or carpenters in corners of the church up at the top or whatever. Look at this picture. A carpenter did like a little he was a little nut sack. Yeah. He put that in the car. It's worse. No way. So what they do isn't a church. What they'll do is they'll do, they'll do like a carving or a paint, a picture. Kind of like dude, tell me Justin wouldn't that be the first 100% would do some shield. Nobody's going to see it because it's way up in the yeah, it's in the detail. Yeah. It's way up in the corner but it's like their way of putting their like little prank or whatever. You know what I mean? This is not the only one. There's like, there's lots of stuff like this where they'll find them and be like who did that? Okay. So that's been happening forever. That makes me think that's exactly what happened with the whole Disney movies too. Yes. With the editors and all the We haven't changed. The animators Yes. They threw little little things in there that look sexual and really it was just the like It's just with your friends. Yeah. Hey bro, watch this. Yeah. Yeah. Pause it. Yeah. If you do, I totally would. Totally. Yeah. If I was doing something like that and be like, hey, go check out the top right hand corner I used to do this training my salespeople so as full as closures could sound like an asshole but when I was training my salespeople I would do what's called a TO and a TO is a turnover. You go in, you take over the presentation and you're presenting the you know the membership to the gym or whatever and your sales person's listening to how you're presenting and when I would do this you know, you do this 50 times a day and you're with these people for 12 hours. So you got to learn and you have fun with it so I would throw in body parts that don't exist and exercises that I made up and the person sitting across from me doesn't know that I just made it up but my sales guy knows and my salesman they're laughing and so I would do I used to do the same thing I'm sure. We used to even have things where like you would tell each other you'd be like I'm going to go in this presentation and I bet you I find a way to insert this word. Yes. Like some random ass words. There's no way you're going to fit that in there. What we're talking about there's a lot of value to that like learning that art of being able to communicate that well that you can be having this serious conversation and then find a way to insert that. And then the next person they're trying not to laugh. Yeah. Anyway I got a shout out so a book that I read years ago and I just thought about the other day a really impactful book for me called The Peaceful Warrior have you guys ever read that? I've heard of that book. Really really good Dan Milman excellent book to read and it was I know why it came up. I got interviewed and someone asked me about my spiritual journey. That was the one of the first books that got me to kind of like start moving in that direction. It's not a religious book. It's nothing like that. It's very well written book. But it made you open up to like the legitimacy of like spiritual practices. It was a movie based on everything too. Really really good book. Yeah. That's it right there. It's about this gymnast that meets this homeless guy and the homeless guy ends up like becoming his mentor. It's really cool. Oh is it? Is it fictional? It's fictional. Well I think he said it was true. I don't remember. I think it's a combination. Yeah. Have you read it Dan? I did and I actually saw the movie too. Yeah. How was the movie? It was pretty good. Yeah. Nick Nolte. I remember as a kid I used to say I don't read books that I wanted to ruin the movie. I just thought of that. Stupid. Anyway. Element is an electrolyte powder you add to your water that has the right amount of sodium for better muscle contractions and performance. No artificial sweeteners. No sugar. And again it's got the right amount of sodium. Most electrolyte powders are too low in sodium to even make a difference. Go check out Element. Go to DrinkLMNT.com forward slash mind pump and on that link you'll get a free sample pack with any order. All right. Back to the show. Our first caller is Matt from Alaska. Matt. What's up man? How you doing? Good bro. How you doing? Good. I just want to ask you guys are you guys nervous right now? Very nervous. Every time man. I'm sweating. Thanks for calling in man. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Yeah. So what I want to run by you guys is you know put it some of the note that I sent in but man about three and a half, four years ago I was in a really bad place mentally, physically and spiritually. I was sick. I couldn't figure out what was going on. Kept going to the doctor. I sold that I was anemic. They put me on some iron transfusions. I didn't quite do it. I thought it was some bleeding from an ulcer so we addressed that. I just kept getting sicker and sicker and energy was getting worse and worse. I quit working out. I couldn't make it to the gym. I just didn't have any energy. I got depressed. And I was realized later that my human global level was so low I was barely functioning. I was hypoxic pretty much all the time and ended up in the ICU once and they thought well I think it was just a you know gastric ulcer. So they gave me some medicine for that but didn't really fix anything and I was like slowly and surely happened again. It's about two and a half years I called the ER and went and they found that my human global level had fallen to a five. And I remember the surgeon said they were looking at me and he said you know when you get below a seven you could have irreversible brain damage and this was a gradual thing. Did nobody notice? And I said well I don't know I work for the government. They know one seemed to pay attention whatsoever. And I said well at least you have your sense of humor and long story short they went into it and it happened there too is I got this power even just to fall asleep at night I was starting to you know use alcohol and drink too much and just because I was such a bad place not to justify that behavior but that's what happened. Turns out finally they went in and realized that I had colon cancer and what an occurrence I've been bleeding for about two years and just could not get that level back up. And then the poor sleep poor diet you know alcohol then exacerbated all of that. I got that taken care of it not spread not my left nose they removed that section also then took the time when I was in the hospital to reach out and got some some help with some of the substance abuse issue that was dealing with in this case it was alcohol as well as starting to work with you know the therapist and building my life mentally physically spiritually. So I mean I was at 1.357 pounds a lot larger than him now started to work out getting a diet and exercise saw how important all of those were essential every single day and decided to help other people so became a certified personal trainer about two and a half years ago and now I've been reaching out to the local you know program you have here they have a center for people in recovery for alcohol or other types of addictive substances and volunteering there and I'm trying to get my foot in the door to work for them and just help their clients on a volunteer and couldn't quite get that to work out finally ended up working here at a local gym but they were looking for somebody and I wanted to kind of use these skills more and sort of training people there and now as it works out that this recovery center has reached out to that gym now we're going to start bringing out clients it looks like. So my question is I'm going to have about 12 people showing up at once it's not my favorite thing to do but it gets my name out there which is good I'm able to look a lot of clients through that but what would you guys do if you got say 12 people showing up they got about an hour and a half two hours and all different levels 19 year old to 60 year old different stages otherwise but what I'm trying to do is still this is a lifetime thing you know the rest of your life profound results and any advice you guys have would be really appreciated yeah man well first off a tremendous story Matt God bless you man that's incredible now you're paying back by helping other people so I love hearing stuff like that when you're working with the group I think the wrong approach is to try to give them all a workout I think that tends to result in an inappropriate workout for a large population of the people because like you said you have a wide range of individuals in there from 19 to 60 so it would be very difficult dealing like just this full workout so I think the best approach or I feel very strongly the best approach would be to have a mobility component which benefits everybody and then it would be to teach them to focus on one or two specific exercises and make that the whole squat and then you do a mobility session leading up to that might take 20-30 minutes and then you give everybody a squat variation that they can start with so maybe the 19-year-old is getting into the bar and the 60-year-old is just doing a body weight squat it's all the same biomechanics and you're watching everybody go through the squat and you're having everybody do the rep at the same time and then you're pausing during the session and you're walking around correcting everybody's technique and form of instruction right on the workout now the side effect is they're going to get somewhat of a workout while they do it as well but I think they'll get much more benefit from it that way and then of course that also builds nice community which I think is going to benefit these individuals quite a bit because they're they're in recovery so hopefully they develop a relationship with each other during this process yeah you want them to walk away learning something and feeling something and so that's why I would lean even harder into the mobility to you know getting into right positions feeling what it feels like to be an optimal posture to walk away after going through a good mobility session they're going to feel like a million dollars and this is just something that's going to kind of spark a conversation within them that they can do fitness a little bit differently yeah I do agree there's value and also like learning like some of the maybe taking one specifically like the squat like Sal was mentioning but you're going to find I don't know how much time you have with this but I mean an hour is going to go up really quick just trying to teach them new moves mobility wise that they can benefit from with their hips their shoulders you know their ankles like just focusing on those like basically what Adam did in our webinar I think would be a perfect way to handle that Matt did you see we just had a live caller Doug did that go did that air already the art our friends with the podcast on recovery addiction and in there from Florida that may be going up today oh wow okay so we we actually just had this question that two guys actually are in the podcast space we met them in person in Florida couple real good dudes both were I think they're like 12 years recovering addicts themselves and they've been felt compelled to now help others they've built a podcast and a lot of it centered around health and fitness and they were really asking us the same question like what they were finding was you know putting these guys through these these workouts they were seeing that they were trading their other addictions into their into this fitness obsession and so they're they're just over intensifying the workouts you know not recovering properly just beating themselves up and they were justifying that behavior because they they've just traded the alcohol or drug addiction for now this fitness addiction and they're asking us like how to prevent that you know so very similar and they're all of us are going to saying this kind of the same thing because we kind of worked this out on air with them and talked about some of the challenges with what you do and I agree with what the both guys are saying is like that's what you got to be cautious of is that you you don't want to turn it into this boot camp military prison style type workout because those guys or girls will take it to the extreme and there's a lot of the content that we've already provided for free out there Justin brought up the webinar that I did on Prime Pro that's a 50 minute workout right there it's like and by the way I don't know if you know the evolution of that or how that the origin of that but the origin of that because you brought up the boot camp so I used to run boot camps all over the Bay Area and I had this moment it was after a few years of doing it where I just felt guilty because I knew better I was 55 and 60 in this class and I was doing all this circuit training stuff and when I looked at most of them sure we had moments of losing 15 pounds here or there but the end of the day they all kind of looked the same moved the same same issues yet they were staying with me for years and I'm like am I really helping these people out and after I moved on past the boot camps this guilt was still weighing on me so I offered up these free classes on Saturday totally free for anybody class and what I found was those people in that 50 minutes I could impact them right away like they would get up and I used to do this at the beginning of the class I would have them cold no warm up no strength do 20 body weight squats just so they could feel and see their movement and then I would take them through this mobility class and then at the end I would have them do the 20 squat body weight squats again so they could really like whoa I can get down further oh my back what that was doing or what it was providing for them and so I love giving a class something like that and then I also love the idea of okay this next four weeks of meeting together we're going to learn all things the squat all the different variations the progressions the regressions of it the common deviations of the knees collapsing into the heels rising to the chest falling forward to the arms falling forward why why does this happen and then how important and fundamental and I would literally go through our YouTube channel and our podcast and sir or use the AI and search for all the things like you know we've done a master class on the squat we've done a master class on the both on a a recorded podcast and then we've done YouTube videos we've got all kinds of brilliant professionals that are even better than we are what we do come in and teach the squat and I would take little nuggets from all of them and then put together your own kind of approach a class like that that's so diverse that I know deep down just running them through a bunch of exercises randomly in an hour is really not doing them that great a service other than just keeping them busy and burning calories do you have do you have maps prime pro Matt I don't have prime pro I have pretty much most of all the other programs but I did watch of course the webinar Adam and I kind of used that when I was teaching that class introduction to train with resistance band but half of it was using those movements you showed in that webinar love it it was really cool when I was teaching that one night over half the people that were taking it were in recovery that I had reached out to and said I'm going to start working formally with you guidebook for now and so there was about eight or people in there in the recovery and someone actually at the end of the program got up who was not in the recovery program community just one of the members of the gym I went out there she was in the locker at that point some people from my class were in the recovery went in the locker and like oh no there was a guy coming in and helps you know guide everybody out someone else came in and got a 911 and called and we got EMS there and I was able with my background able to you know take vital signs and reassure her I asked her four questions if these are in order most important down into respiration slow down but the reason I told you that was neat is I'm standing out there in the hallway with like seven or eight people in the recovery program and they all looked around and said holy cow do you realize that instead of you know pulling from society being in trouble having the police come for us we're actually responding to helping someone else in need the police station called 911 and then when they came in the door we were happy to see them and that was really neat to watch them definitely do the mobility aspect I love the aspect of concentrating on one compound movement kind of building from there and when they get done they want to reach out and I think maybe the additional thing would be how can they be of service to others maybe how they can teach this to the next people again in recovery and I hadn't thought about that until I just you know brought that up about the mobility training aspect and how they were able to take that and be of service to the community instead of being the opposite which is pretty neat scenes. I think it's a great opportunity to get a lot of value from for this class we'll send that to you and just just building on what you just said I love this idea and maybe you come up with a catchy name or philosophy around the course of like you know let's you know let's learn this so we could teach someone else like that's I'm already like putting together like how my my first opening state or conversation would be was like I would first to like just functionality and the importance of it the benefits of it and then the benefits of being able to get to a point where we can load it and build strength and then selling them on this idea like I'm going to give you guys the tools to not only do that yourselves but then also be able to help others in your family figure out why they can't do that and I love that I think that's such a come resilient and pass it on yeah I think that's such a cool valuable thing that you could teach and hopefully you give them enough education around movement patterns and why they couldn't do that they can go then pass it on to somebody else and then be fulfilled I think that's amazing yeah in the recovery community they use that real short expression of you know clean house so address your internal issues first trust God higher powers and better than us and help others those are three tenants so above any good recovery program that's exactly what you're offering it to do love that that's great man awesome work as you go through it I'd love for you to circle back and keep us posted we'll do thank you guys thank you you know that's why I love trainers so much is a lot of trainers become trainers because they they want to help others they see the value of what it did for them then they want to help others and he's going to be so effective it's going to be powerful especially with the people he's reaching out to I mean incredible yeah I just we've talked about this a couple of times now about group training and so I thought and I love this idea of I mean it's cool I've actually got to see this and I don't know if you guys have experienced this with the wives or close friends or what that but getting Katrina to train you know strength train properly the right way was a major thing in our related she was an athlete but she never trained like really properly like she trained like a lot of the cliche ways that old athletic trainers would train clients taking that down and teaching her and then really improving her squat and her deadlift it's really cool to watch her turn around and do that to her friends and help them and stuff like that and so I think that idea of like making this class about that is like man we can the impact that you can make getting the average person to go from either not being able to squat or not being able to squat properly to learning how to to squat that you can make a massive impact by just really learning all the nuances of that and helping others do that it's kind of ironic it's like going through recovery but also learning how to recover properly sure love it our next caller is donald from missouri donald what's up man how can we help you hey guys how's it going what's going on man good hey I want to try not to show my fanboy here because I'm just I'm pretty nervous and if you guys are cool with it just dive right in do it do it awesome alright so thank you guys thank you for providing such wonderful information and cutting through the fitness spaces marketing BS and giving the general public like myself actionable ways to improve their fitness and health you've changed my life you've changed countless others and I'm proud to be part of the resistance trading revolution and they just can't thank you enough that being said I'm going to read my email verbatim because I promised my fiance hi Rachel that I wouldn't ramble on and make bad jokes and this is the best way to keep me from making bad jokes come on alright dear team my poem I hope this message finds you well my name is Donnie a 40 year old male who embarked on a lifting journey about a year and a half ago despite the challenges posed by my pigeon breast condition which makes it makes chest muscle development particularly difficult for me I remain dedicated to improving my physical health and strength after discovering I had a testosterone deficiency I started TRT therapy three months ago I significantly boosted my energy levels alongside prioritizing sleep and protein intake I've seen a dramatic change in my body composition thanks in large part to your RGB bundle currently I'm in phase 2 of map symmetry and thoroughly enjoying it however my chest development remains a stubborn issue despite utilizing focus sessions and chest mods progress is slow this brings me to my burning questions is my pigeon breast condition severely limiting my ability to grow my chest muscles affecting my performance and other lids if so which ones are most likely to be impacted your insights and advice would be invaluable to me as I navigate these challenges sincerely flat chest Cheetham aka Donny aka Iron Don Solo looking at your picture first of all you look really good so you don't have I mean okay so the technical term is Pectis Covernatum or something like that for pigeon you've been officially diagnosed yes when I was younger and I didn't really know much of anything about it I just knew I was embarrassed to take my shirt off and then okay all I really had well I'm looking at your picture it doesn't seem too bad because sometimes what will happen with this condition if it's really bad is it'll impact your ability to expand your diaphragm it can cause fatigue and stuff like that doesn't seem to be an issue for you that is not an issue for me no it's more I just feel like and I know that chest is a lagging muscle part for a lot of people but I just always felt like it's just been extremely difficult everything else seems to want to grow and my body composition changed so rapidly in this time frame that I've kind of been running the RGB bundle and everything but that part of me just doesn't seem to want to progress bro your tripping your tripping I'm not sure you're tripping bro you seem pretty balanced based on your picture your chest is bigger than cells I mean this is you're doing just fine bro this is now how long have you been lifting for consistently obviously you've been lifting for a while I can still so I was at 240 pounds and I started with cardio until I found you guys and on December 1st of 2022 I started actually lifting not using a hitch cap on my phone this is all recent bro this is all symbolic you're okay listen so I at one point not only did I have a bird concave looking chest I was also imbalanced where one side was more developed My chest wasn't even even. It was an absolute mess. Now it's one of my favorite body part or my wife's favorite body parts on me, but it took a decade of working towards that. It's just we build muscle slow. If it's a challenging area, it's going to take you a little bit longer. I can tell you right now though, by where your physique is right now, you look pretty balanced. You look really good. I don't see any asymmetry. It doesn't look like you're unbalanced. I mean, the old rules of prioritizing a body part would apply here. So, you know, train it first in your sessions, focus on the connection. If you feel like your delts, you know, take over typically people with issues with chest development, when they do pressing their shoulders and triceps tend to take over. So, when you press, try to focus on the chest muscles. Take volume away from strong body parts and move it towards the chest, train with frequency. I mean, just those old rules, but I mean, you just started lifting and you look pretty balanced. I think you're fine. I know you want those answers from Sal, but I'm going to give you the answer that you really need to hear, which is like, this is just, this is part of it. We all have insecurities about our physiques. The reason why when I threw that jab at Sal, it's still burned a little bit inside of him, because that's like, you know, because that still, that hurts. You know what I'm saying? That's a deep rooted insecurity that you're back. No, for sure. I'll get it. I know it, but I mean, speak up though. Is it not true? Is it true or not true? Of course, yeah. Of course. We all, we all have it. Okay. We all, we all have bones, shoulders, and I don't, I don't think, I don't think you could build a good enough physique to completely go away. No, it'll always kind of be there until you work on that, until you work on accepting your physique and loving your physique for the way that you're in great shape. I bet you your wife never says shit. Yeah. I bet you she never say nothing about you. Besides, don't tell bad jokes. Yeah, exactly. She ain't saying nothing about your chest. You know what I'm saying? And nor would any other girl that you took your shirt off. Well, you got a diagnosis, right? And like, that's just something that kind of stays there. I'm sure. Yeah, but I can't even tell if I, if you were my client, I wouldn't be able to see that you had that condition because it looks like you were able to expand your rib cage out pretty well. So it, you know, because that's something we're aware of as trainers. If you see that, and it's significant, then there are some considerations, but I wouldn't even be able to notice by looking at your picture. Yeah. I mean, Sal gave tips to keep, you know, to keep growing the chest and the way another thing to pay attention to is a lot of guys when they, when they bench, they let their shoulders roll forward a little bit and the shoulders and arms take a little bit more of the movement. So being very aware of that, right? Staying, that was an area. So that was my big problem was I had bad form. I just had bad form. I was allowing my right shoulder to roll forward every time I pressed. And so it just wasn't developing the same as the left. You focus a lot on the incline bench for a while. Yeah. So incline, incline became one of my favorite because it kind of naturally rolls the shoulders back and down. And so that put me in a good natural position to lift. So yeah, paying attention to your technique. I mean, I'm not training you. So I don't see your, your bench pressing. So be critical of your form. I don't, don't sacrifice your form to load the bar more because you're so desperate to build your chest more because that'll only work against you. Tech form technique is so important to engaging the chest. Getting a good stretch in the chest. A lot of exercises. Good stretch, full range of motion. Stay connected to it. Squeeze at the end. Open all the way up. Those, I mean, these are all tips to help. But at the end of the day, you've only been lifting consistently for a couple of years and you look as good as you do. This is mostly a thing in your head that anything else. I mean, you, you look great. You're doing great. And you know, we, and we all have a muscle group that develops fast and then the other ones that develop slow. That's just part of us all being genetically unique. Like you probably, your arms probably explode when they just, you touch way through your back. Like everybody has like an area where they feel like, man, I barely have to work that. And it, it responds well. And then I have the other area. It's like, God, it's so stubborn. I hit it so hard and it just doesn't, but that's everybody. We all have it. And you gotta get out of your own head. Yeah, I appreciate that. I wonder too, and you know, this helps, I appreciate you guys meeting with me to discuss that because you wonder, is it, is it, am I eating enough calories? Is it my testosterone? Is that the issue? And I couldn't find any real good information. It's all muddied about how it actually affects, you know, the muscle development. So I thought, you know, this, this helps a lot. I appreciate it. Yeah, no, you're doing good, dude. You're doing good. Yeah. Just follow the old principles of, of prioritizing a body part and you're, you'll be, you'll be set and stay consistent. Okay. Yeah, that sounds great. I will. You got it, man. Thanks for calling in, bro. Thank you. Adam's like, you know, we all have insecurities. So I'm going to highlight Sal. Just to give you an example. I mean, it's true though. Of course, everybody. Yeah, we all do. And that's just part of this, that's just part of this game, dude. And it's like, I mean, dude, he looks great. I will say this with, with, with body parts that are lagging, what we tend to do in our training is we don't slow down and try to feel that muscle. And when I do that, when I've done that, or now that I do that, now I see significant improvements whereas before I was worried about the weight on the bar. I know. I love that. I love full range of motion and really like staying there and isometrically contracting to be able to feel it. Once you really get that connection, I feel like now, you know, going through the reps is a different experience. I got to see, dig through if I got some old pictures, but I had a horrible chest. Horrible. I mean, it was, it was flat. It wasn't even. It was just, it was terrible. And I was weak. It was all the above was bad. It just, it took a while and that was a big part of it. Like my, my insecurities around it drove my intensity in the training it versus slowing it down, taking it through full range, having to probably light, because I was already weak. You know, embarrassing it is when you're a young man, I can't even bench the big plates. And so I gotta slow down. So now I gotta take the weights down even lighter than it already is and go really slow. Like, I mean, that's all in your head, but doing that is what built my chest. That's why I've always been on a perma bulk, dude. Trying to make me feel better. Like, yeah, here it is. No, me too. I'm bony ass, the shoulders, dude. I'd never like to be like skinny. That was like, always like conscious of that. So we all got our shit. That's it. I got a wife, Peter, body. Our next caller is Raphael from New York. Raphael, what's up, man? What's up, guys? What's going on? Hey, hey, man, I'm like kind of like star struck right now. We ain't that cool. How's that? Everything good? Good, man. How you doing? Hey, listen, there was a there was a poll going on in Facebook about whose team who did who ended up winning that one. Justin, of course he won. It's exactly how I said it would end up. It was Justin was a far first place. Sal and I were neck and neck for worst. Oh, man. Oh, man, that's so good. Yeah, it's all good. Yeah. Yeah. I can't win them all. Yeah. All right. Well, currently, I have a like a little little problem going on, not no problem, but I'm 30. I'm 40 years old. I'm 5'10 according to my wife. I think I'm 5'11. I run around. I'm around 208. As of this morning, I'm a 208 and I've been working around out for five years now. It's been like, I just feel like I just do not grow at all. I do not grow. I tried the the bulk. I tried the the cutting. I tried everything that you guys say do I stick to it and it's just like, I mean, I see some gains, but I just do not see what I thought I would see after five years of working out. I'm currently I just hit a PR deadlift of 300 bench before. I only could do about 175 and squat 175 also. I did hire an online coach from the the mass forum. And can you shout him out? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm glad well from GW Fitness. He's a great guy. I also got my testosterone tested, which was at 386 NG dash DL whatever. And yeah, and just I ran antibiotics before. I ran performance. I ran right now running a map split. And I love split. I could hit the gym six days a week. I worked my whole my whole schedule around pretty much working out in the mornings and then I work nights. So it works out for me and I get my seven eight hours of sleep. But yeah, I have I have a question for you off because typically my clients that would say something like this to me right been training five years. I feel like I listen to what you say. I'm just not seeing the results. There's there tends to be two one or two or both these culprits. And so I want you to be honest with me and tell me which one you struggle the most with. It's either one really consistent meaning I never miss the gym and I'm consistent all the time I hit my workouts or two. I'm really inconsistent with hitting my protein intake every single day. If you were to fail at one of them, which one is it? I would say most likely the protein. I mean, I get my protein my my one grams of protein. Sometimes I think I over overreach. Um, but the gym, I do not miss the gym. That's like my sanctuary. I love being in there. Yeah. Do you use a do you use a like a my fitness pal or fat secret? Do you track? Do you track? Yeah, I use. Yeah, I use an app right now. That's the thing. I don't know if I as of now like if I was to start over, I just don't know if I should like stay with the cut with a little cut or stay with a bulk or well, I just don't know what direction to go in. You started when did you start working with a coach? I started working with him a couple of years back. But um, you know, I I left him because of um, you know, I just wanted to see if something was different, you know, like, I wanted to see if I was like I wanted to push myself more and I just I don't know. I just I was just everywhere. I was everywhere and I was just trying to take advice and just see some some type of answers and I just seemed not to find it. So a testosterone, a total testosterone reading of 383 is is on the low end. In fact, you're almost under the range of what we'd be considered in range. Now, I don't know how long your testosterone has been at that. But there are some lifestyle factors that tend to contribute to that. One of them is over training diet is the other one lack of sunlight or vitamin D deficiency would be another one or zinc, zinc deficiency sleep would be another one. A testosterone total of 383, you said 386. Yeah. That'll make it hard to build muscle. That'll make it hard. You want to get your levels typically at least in the in the 600 range. Are you do you notice any other signs of low testosterone like energy, libido drive motivation? Um, no, I actually have good libido. I have good energy throughout the day. My drive is, you know, I get my my eight hours of seven to eight hours of sleep. And that's why at first I thought it was a testosterone, but then it's just like, I don't know, maybe it's my age, maybe it's just maybe it's just everything altogether. So usually it isn't testosterone. But if I see someone's testosterone in the 300s or lower, although you're not showing any of the symptoms, but typically I'll look there because that'll make it hard. Do you know what your free testosterone was at by any chance? No, I just got like those regular like blood tests. I decided, Hey, let me just, I didn't know there was so when I heard you guys talk, I didn't know there was like so many different, um, yeah, like levels of getting your testosterone tested and stuff like that. So typically, uh, I mean, that's that's border. So like usually under 250 or 300 typically under 300 is out of range and you're almost there. Right? Um, so like the average healthy male at your age, uh, typically would, we'd want to be at least in the 600s. Um, so what I would look at or, or, or anything in your life that could be contributing to that. So I would look at nutrient deficiencies. So zinc, vitamin D, those two things I would, I would get tested. You can work with a functional medicine practitioner to see if there's anything you could do to bring those levels up naturally. And in my experience, uh, 80% of the time we could take someone's testosterone if they're measuring like that and double it, uh, with, with lifestyle changes. Now there is that other 20% where we don't, we're not able to really make an impact in which case and how old are you Raphael? 40. Yeah. So, you know, there's that other 20, 15 to 20% in my experience again, where then testosterone replacement therapy becomes, uh, the, the option, but there's a large percentage majority where you make lifestyle changes and then you see a huge boost, um, in testosterone and then that makes a big difference with your training. But I wouldn't follow a program like map split. I know you like the gym, but that's such a high volume training program. I would have you follow a maps and a balik protocol, um, or a maps 15 advanced protocol for now until you kind of figure that until you kind of figure that out. All right. Yeah. Cause the split, the volume on split is, I'll be on look for me, that's a little too much volume. And that, and I've been working out for years and I'm on TRT and split is a lot of volume for me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have Doug, it would be good. I'm gonna have Doug give you maps 15. So you have that and then also put you in the forum. I'm on the form already guys. Oh, you are. Okay. Oh yeah, man. I'm in there. So yeah. And I'm, I'm with Sal on you really trying to dial in all these things, other factors to see if we can get those levels up. I'm also, if you, if you check in for a month every week with your average calorie intake. So basically track every day your food on your whatever app you're using. And then at the end of the week, you know, post in the forum, I averaged 2700 calories a day, 192 grams of protein, 130 grams of fat, 240 grams of carbs, whatever the numbers are, you post that for every week for a month, I think we'll have some really good idea between that and then trying to figure out the sleep thing and moving you to more like an anabolic or a maps 15, I think we'll have some answer. Yeah. Cause splits going to be just too much too much volume for most people regardless. All right. And should I, should I stay like in a, in a my maintenance or should I go like under my maintenance or for now, stay right around what yeah, I would say maintenance. Yeah. For now, stay maintenance. That's why I want to, I want you just to kind of track, eat when you're hungry, make good food choices, hit your protein intake. That's the only real advice for food. I want to give you that. You know what, Raphael, go to mphormones.com. You already have your blood test, right? So go in there, fill out a form, tell them we recommended you and talk to the doctors or the, or the specialists over there because they are hormone specialists and see, because there are interventions that they could also do that involve nutrients, but also involve medications that don't put you on TRT, but rather get the testosterone to come up naturally and they take you off or something. Yeah. Like Hcg and clomaphy and those types of things. So go to mphormones.com and you, since you already have your test, you'll be able to give it to them and then they'll see if there's any of the tests they want to do with you. But the testosterone is a big one. When it starts to get down to that level, that's when you start to notice effects. Yeah. Typically. Yeah. I mean, I never, I never, I never felt what it was to have higher than that. So I don't, I don't know what it is to feel. This thing, this is normal to me, what I feel now. But when I hear you guys talk saying that you think that's normal and then you, it rises up, then all of a sudden it's, it's like, like what, what a game changer. That was South story. That was me. South story. And I was doing, I mean, I was doing everything, you know, working out, sleep, supplements, the whole deal, my levels were a little lower than yours, but it was in that range. I was below 300, but not, but not too far from where you were. And the difference between, you know, where I was to where I, you know, now in, in, and how it affected my body is profound. It's absolutely profound, uh, in a difference because I went from low to high. Now there's a lot of guys who are kind of in the middle and they think that, you know, going on TRT is going to make this big difference. It won't. But if it's low, then it tends to make a big difference. But like you, Raphael, I didn't have an issue with libido. That's what I thought. That's why I was confused. But libido isn't necessarily always driven by testosterone, although it usually is. There's lots of other things that affect libido. But I will say this, when I went on TRT, I had, my libido was like when I was 15 years old. So that's, that might be an issue. Might want to let your wife know ahead of time. Yeah, right. I hear that. She, she, she hears it now. Yeah, but go to mphormones.com and talk to them too. You got it, man. And then we'll see, we'll see the forum too. All right. Definitely. I definitely want to thank you guys for everything. I mean, absolutely everything. I long story short, pretty much. I met, I was never into fitness at all. And, um, you know, like everybody else in COVID, you know, I got into it. I was really heavy. I was, um, I went, I did it from 300 then dropped all the way to 230 something. And then when I got the, um, Alec, um, the personal online coach, he dropped me all the way down to 185. And then I went back up and, um, I just fell in love with fitness. I found you guys. And I, I just like, I never listened to a podcast before in my life. And I found you guys on YouTube. And I just don't not miss a day now. Thank you guys. Take my day. You guys make me laugh. It is like Adam picking on, on, um, Dougie all the time. It's just, it makes my day. It makes my, my life easier, man. And tell you that I really appreciate you guys a lot. Thank you for everything you do. Thank you, man. Thank you for the support. We'll see you inside the forum, brother. Say hi to Don Tello. Have a good one, man. Take it easy guys. Yeah. Justin and Leonardo. Yeah. Yeah. God damn it. You know, um, yeah, three and three total depends what is free is two. That's typically considered. Well, yeah, we just got more information right then that I didn't realize too. I mean, he's dropped a ton away and that tends to happen when someone goes on like a low calorie diet for a really long time like that, that'll suppress testosterone too. So yeah, you know, it might be as simple as just hopping on some ACG to shoot it back up. So that is a good advice to go that direction. I also want to see the diet. I just, you know, uh, it's, I think we, especially if you take somebody who is, who's done what he's done, which is impressive, right? He was, he was, he lost a ton of weight, probably cutting calories, creating activity, and it was probably results, results, results, results, results. And now he's come back the other way. He's trying to build back up and now the progress is slow. Now he's with the rest of us. You know, one, another thing that just, just kind of off, off shoot here is I think COVID brought a lot of people to working out to fitness and health, the irony, you know, that whole period of time. So many people are like, I started during that period of time. This is just one more person. So maybe it was a blessing. A lot more people conscious about the health. Our next caller is Ellen from South Carolina. Ellen, how are you? What's up guys? How are you? Good. How can we help you? Yeah. Good. Yeah. So actually first, really quick, I know you guys hear it all the time, but you deserve to hear it every time. I really appreciate all that y'all do for the fitness and health space. You've taught me a lot. I've been able to apply a lot of the things that I've learned from you with my clients and you make me laugh. I learn a lot of very interesting things. Thanks, Justin. And I just, I really appreciate it. So yeah, can't thank you enough. Doug included. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you got it. So I'll just dive into my question. I'm just going to read it. Kind of how I sent it in. So I've been in the fitness and nutrition space for the past 10 years. I started with a few bikini competitions at 18 and my passion for it led me to pursuing my nutrition degree. Since then I've been coaching fitness classes and then eventually I did transition to being a full-time nutrition coach after I graduated and that was about four years ago. So this is all I've really ever, I definitely struggled with disordered eating for a few years, both extremely underweight as well as some intense binge eating for a few years, but now about two years disorder free, which I'm pretty stoked about. I absolutely love what I do and I feel very confident in my ability to coach clients on practicing balance and not let this be all consuming. Yet I struggle very much to practice what I preach. I've missed out on a lot of my 20s and now that I'm 27 I really want to enjoy life without feeling like I need to control everything when it comes to nutrition and training. I've been working on this, but my biggest challenge is figuring out my identity outside of being the quote fit one. I tend to cancel plans because I'd rather hit my macros or I'll leave early from something because I know I'm working out early in the morning, etc. I've tried to stop tracking macros time and time again, but no matter what, as soon as I'm about to eat something I whip out my food scale. I just don't trust myself. I know that this should be a part of my life, not my whole life, but because I've placed so much value on my physical appearance and desire to control for so long, I really struggle to just let go. I've not missed one of y'all's episodes in four years and you're part of the reason I know that fitness and nutrition does not have to be your entire life. So the actual questions are, do you guys have any tips for trying to break out of this box of being too attached to what makes me feel safe and in control? And then the second part is, have any of y'all ever struggled with your identity outside of fitness when that's all you know or may have convinced other people that that's just who you are? Great question. Really good question. Really good question. Really common and very few are willing to admit it. So kudos to you for being there. That's half the battle. And my opinion is to admit that you're challenged and you struggle with this. I think 90% plus of our space is littered with fitness professionals that are struggling with this, but then don't admit it. One of the things that has helped me personally in my journey through this was you and you already have attached it. I was in my head, I was already answering your question and you would already have made the attachment that this is also attached to body image, right? Like how I look. So one of the things that moved me away from that and I can totally relate to being judged by how I look and driving towards a goal like that was to become like the mobility guy, you know, like, like, because you love training. So I don't want to discourage you from lifting and exercising. It's a passion, what you do. But I would chase a new modality that's so outside of what you would normally do. So maybe you're already been a mobility person anyway. So not that. So maybe be like, we have an old timey program, get into old time strength lifts, or if you never trained for like a powerlifting meet, get into powerlifting movements for a while, like, you've never trained like specifically for an athlete, check out the new performance advanced program pick something that is so out of the norm for you in that's related to health and fitness that is only going to benefit you as a trainer and coach, right? You go chase a modality that you normally wouldn't do. It's only going to add more tools to your tool belt to help other people. Plus it'll start to help you detach from the image part of fitness. Instead of always chasing the macros and the way your body looks, how about how you're moving or performing on an exercise or in the gym? That will help. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to fix or change or get rid of. But it's a good way to start to transition away from that. And that's something that has really helped me with this exact same challenge. Ellen, do you know what your triggers are with the food and the workouts and stuff? With food, I think it's just my need for control. It's not even that I don't trust myself because I've been tracking for so long. It's just, yeah, I don't know. When it comes to having time to eat, I just want to know exactly what I'm doing. Do you weigh yourself often? Every morning. Okay. So typically weighing yourself, looking in the mirror, full body, and studying yourself or looking at your physique, those two things tend to be really strong triggers for people like you. So in order to kind of get out of this, you're going to have to eliminate those triggers for a while. It's going to be a little bit of a leap of faith because you're going to be, oh my god, what's happening to myself? What am I doing? So I would take your scale and I would give it to somebody that you trust and say, I'm going to give this to you and don't give it back to me. And so stop weighing yourself and stop looking in the mirror. Now, of course you have to look in the mirror. People are like, how do I not look in the mirror? Just look at your neck up when you're getting ready in the mirror. And if you look at how you're looking in an outfit, be very aware of how much you're studying yourself. So you can look at yourself, I look good, I'm out. And literally, so I went through a period of this where I took mirrors and I covered them and I stopped looking at myself because it would trigger those behaviors. So the scale and the mirror get rid of those two things. And then when it comes to eating, you're gonna have to start connecting it to something else than how you look in your body weight. So we're gonna need to start doing is I want you to take a journal and I like paper and pen. I like this better than the phone because there's a lot of things on your phone that'll also probably trigger you like social media. So I'd like for you to have a small journal and I want you to write, talk about how you feel before you eat, what you're looking for from the food, how you feel while you're eating and then how you feel after the food. And that's it. No judgment. Okay. So the point of this is also not to get into a shame spiral. Oh crap. I totally ate what I normally eat because I'm still trying to control my like, don't worry about that. Just how you feel. What's the goal with this meal? How I feel during and how I feel after and you're gonna start doing start connecting other things to food besides the way you look because it's gonna take it's gonna be a bit of a process. In fact, it's gonna feel very awkward at first. At first, it's gonna feel very forced before it becomes something very natural. On top of that, doing what Adam said, I think is is great because you're still gonna want to work out. I don't think you should stop working out. But I think you should go to the gym and start looking at the like the weight on the bar. I think I think a powerlifting program would be amazing for that because then what you'll you'll start to find appreciation and excitement and enjoyment over getting stronger and also getting stronger typically means you're not under eating. It means you're probably feeding yourself properly and appropriately. So I like the strength aspect. So maps power lift, eliminate the triggers and then the third piece and this is the hard piece is is and maybe you've already done this work but try to find the root as to why you feel like you need to control things so tightly. Typically, it's because you had a childhood that was either no control, it fell out of control, unpredictable or you didn't have any boundaries or because you're very anxious and that sense of control makes things feel more predictable. But working with a therapist on that control issue is gonna be very important because if you fix it here, it'll show up under the places. In other words, you may find that you're oh I got the exercise and diet part down but now my house needs to be perfectly clean all the time or I need to be like this with work or whatever. You're probably laughing because it might already be a thing. So I think working with a therapist on the control stuff and getting to the root will allow you to kind of figure out this thing because otherwise it'll manifest in other ways and then as you get older and you start to you know have a family and all that stuff, it'll get even more pressure makes things come out more. So those three things I think will help a lot. Do you have? Yeah, having a family is something that has made me think more about this. I don't want this to rub off on any children. And then too with the training aspect, I know you guys don't like CrossFit but for a while when I was doing it, it did help me kind of break out of it for a little because I was so focused on performance. Of course. So that did help. Powerlifting. That's an example though. If you were a client of mine and we found that, that's another great example of where I would allow that. Like just because we're not a fan of the programming but when I had a very specific client who I'm trying to get away from body image, I think CrossFit did a pretty good job of that. It's kind of come full circle back. Not so good though too but I mean for the most part it's performance driven and I like that aspect and so there's some value to that. So I like all the advice. What I'm wondering is do you have other interests in hobbies like outside of fitness? Anything drives you outside that you enjoy that you could really dive into? You can maybe serve somewhere or like volunteer and give back to other people instead of like, I don't know, sometimes for me it's like I'm so self-focused. I'm so self-motivated and a lot of that's wrapped into my body training, like nutrition. Like I'm getting all these things right. I'm checking all these boxes. Instead of pouring all of that on me all the time like pour it somewhere else. Yeah, for sure. That was part of my original like background and the question too. I think that's another piece that has upset me about all this. I used to do a lot of different things. I have a lot of hobbies, drawing, dancing, even honestly just hanging out with people in general is something like I was very outgoing and I've yeah, it's become very I guess selfish honestly, but all in pursuit of maintaining this one thing. So there's definitely things that I've thought about going back to, but I just, I just haven't. You know what? I'm so glad Justin asked that because that changes some of my advice now too. And this does also reminds me a part of my journey where I started to get back into playing basketball. I started actually reading more. I started doing, I started, I picked up swimming. I started picking up some things I was interested in and it's like remember, and I know you know this because you've listened to the show for so long is that, you know, we talk about this, the whole health sphere and you just listed off a bunch of things about yourself that you liked and that you did that are a part of being healthy. Yeah. Like all those things you just said is like, those are all a part of health. And if you've completely eliminated all of them to just be so focused on this macros and body image, like that's not healthy. And so maybe part of your exercise is letting go of some of the gym days. Maybe you shouldn't train in the gym. Do this though, Ellen. Four days a week. Maybe it's two days a week and then two days it is doing hobbies that you know, give you joy. But you have to schedule them at first. That's not going to happen naturally. I'm saying that because it's going to feel, you're going to be alien right now. You know, I got to spend more time with friends or whatever, like literally like, okay, Tuesdays, I am going to go out to lunch with a friend. Yeah. No, it's kind of look just whatever you were doing, if you were like Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, gym days, it's like to keep two of those days. And then the other two are now being replaced with specific hobbies or things. It's going to feel very liberating. After a few weeks of doing this, you're going to start to feel free from these chains that you're bound by. So, but you're going to have to be scheduling that for like the journaling. It's going to feel awkward at first for sure. And part of the, and part of the things that should help you motivate through this, and at least it did for me is that because we're coaches and trainers, part of this work and experiment is so I'm going to be a better coach. Part of me going through this and the challenge of this and struggling through it is because it's only going to make me better for my clients. And so there's that use that as your motivation as you go through it is like, Hey, I know I'm not the only one who's challenged with this. Me going through it, wrestling with it, finding what works, what doesn't work is only going to make you a better communicator with your clients that struggle with the same thing. Totally. Yeah, I really appreciate that. You guys sound like my boyfriend. He tells me all the things you guys are telling me, but I told him unless mine tells me I'm not going to stay here. Oh God, he probably hates us. I find a way to get y'all in every conversation, I swear. That's awesome. We're just backing them up. You know, and I think I like MAPS Anabolic for you. You could follow the two day version and then take the other days and schedule things that are not related to fitness. Literally, maybe take a class in drawing or a dance class, like you said, and put that, you know, instill that in your life. I think that's a great. 100%. Yeah, that'd be great. 100%. Actually, real quick, I did do anabolic maybe a year and a half ago and those, I guess there was a few trigger days or just like you wouldn't do anything. That was hard, but I forced myself to do it and it was really helpful. However, I just didn't replace it with anything. So I just kind of did nothing on those days. Good. Maybe, yeah, this time around, replacing it. Yeah, I go two days a week and then go, go sign up for something or do a class or schedule a lunch with a friend. I love that. Yeah. Cool. All right, Alan. Thank you so much for calling in. Yep. Thank you guys so much for having me. You got it. Thank you. Some good self-awareness and honesty. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, she's on the right path. Truth is, I think this is literally the whole space. It's just, yeah, it is. It really is. You know what sucks about it? Some of them, some people choose to accept that and own it and work towards it. Others deny it and... I think some people don't want to let it go. Like they know it. Like you tell them like, I know, I don't want to let this go. Well, of course. You know how good it felt to walk around as the most jacked dude in the gym and be complimented five times on the way in, five times on the way out. Like talk about an ego feed. So you get that fed to you. So it's like this self-fulfilling, oh, yeah, you look so good. Oh my God, you're so amazing. So it's like, it's an issue. But then yet you're being told how amazing you are for, of course. You know, of course. Yeah. Look, we have a hard gainer guide that can help. Even the hardest of gainers build muscle and it's free. It's totally free, mindpumpfree.com. You can also find all of us on social media. Justin is at Mind Pump, Justin. I'm at Mind Pump to Stefano and Adam is at Mind Pump, Adam.