 Right, welcome back everyone to our second lecture today on BC 213, the End Times, recording is on. So we have some more questions about the glorified bodies. One question was when Jesus, in his glory, after his resurrection, when he appeared to his disciples, John 20, he shows his hands and said to Thomas, and the scars are still there. So he tells Thomas, you touch and see. So the question was, when we get our glorified bodies, does it just mean that this natural physical body changes and we have become somewhat glorified, but then some of these things are there? It's a very interesting question. I don't know the answer correctly. I can't give chapter and verse, but this is what I think. So this is just my opinion that the glorified body is a perfect body. It's a body without any flaw. But at that moment when Jesus appeared to his disciples in John 20 and he appeared and told Thomas, put your hand touch. I feel that there's just my opinion. There's no chapter and verse I can back up with that. I feel that that was just again a momentary thing that God did to let Thomas know that this is the same Jesus. But it doesn't mean that Jesus walking and bleeding is still there. Wounds are still there in the glorified body. I don't think so. The reason we say that is because we also see Jesus walking on the road to MAS. If his physical body had just been glorified, he won't have wounds just here and here. He'll have wounds all over his body, top to bottom because he was whipped 39 times. I mean, it was terrible. The Bible says his visage was so mad, people could not recognize him. And this is within 40 days of recovery. I mean, if it really happened, some people take six months to recover. This is within few days. So when Mary saw, she didn't see Jesus with full marks in the garden. He's still red and bleeding. No, she didn't recognize. Same thing when he walked with the disciples. They were not saying, oh, pain. I was still hurting. He walked and they had no idea that this was the Jesus was crucified. So I think based on this, I think that at that moment when he appeared to the disciples, God created this visual representation in his hands and said, Thomas, this is the same Jesus. But it doesn't mean it was all bleeding, full bandage in history. But what we can say is the glorified body will be a perfect body. What we can say. Again, this is my opinion. It's very hard to give exact chapter and verse to back this up. Anand, your question? My question is, you're told like, I mean, after the person, you have spirit and soul. So if a person has spirit and soul, we can't see. If a person has a glorified body, you can't see. Then what about the spirits like this satan spirits and all we can see them directly. Like they were roaming and they were speaking. We can clearly hear like there are many instances I heard from my dad also and from so many pastors and all. And what about those? If they also have glorified bodies, those are spirits. Now, so these evil spirits, they don't have any body. They're what we refer to them as disembodied spirits. That means there's only spirit, nobody. So for them to express themselves in the natural realm, they need a physical body or they need some inanimate, some object. So that's why they possess a person or sometimes an animal. And they use the faculties of that being to speak. So when evil spirits are speaking, right, they're speaking through the person. They're using the faculties of the individual to speak. So by then they themselves don't have physical expression or they can use objects, things so they can attach themselves to objects and cause things to happen. And they suddenly one object moves from here to there. The spirit is expressing itself in the natural by using that object or winds, waves, storms, things causing catastrophe, etc. So they're disembodied spirits to operate in the natural realm. They need some physical expression, which would be either human body or animal. So like they went into the swine, the spirits went into the pigs and the pigs ran violently down, things like that. So that's how they express themselves. Now, when Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 10 that the messengers of Satan, they appear as angels of light. This is talking about them working through human beings who are actually messengers of Satan. But they are expressing themselves through, but they are they are appearing as angels of like false prophets and all that. Now, can a spirit disappear? So suppose I see a spirit or an angel. Suppose we see an angel or we see a spirit. It is our eyes being opened to see into the spiritual realm. Right? So when we see an angel, our physical, our not our physical eyes, but our spiritual eyes are opened to see into the spiritual realm. Or when you have a vision of Jesus, like you said in the New Testament, a vision of Jesus. What is that? Our spiritual eyes are open to see into another realm where the Lord or angels or evil spirits operate. Example in 2 Kings chapter 6, I think. I'm not very sure, but Elijah, Elijah says, Lord, open his eyes. Then he sees full of chariots and everywhere. Till that time, he couldn't see. But they are there. It's in a different realm. The Lord opened his eyes. So when his eyes are open, he's able to see what is in the other realm, which is the chariots of God. So when we see, when somebody says, I saw a demon or I saw an angel or I saw Jesus, it is our eyes being open to see in the other realm and experience that vision. The possibility that the evil spirit appears like a person, like a dead person. A dead person. And to speak with people. I've personally heard some of the witnesses also. I've heard first from some people. Continuously, one girl, one girl which was dead. She used to cry every night, like coming, coming at the place where she died. And she used to, I mean, some of the people can see her in the night. And it's not one or two. There are many people who saw that. And there are many instances that I've heard like these things will happen. Like evil spirit appears like a dead person and speak. I'm just giving you my thought. My understanding is that a spirit cannot, an evil spirit cannot take on expression in the natural realm without physical body. So in this case, that person or say a dead person is dead and gone. That means they're no longer in the natural realm. So therefore, for a spirit to appear and cause itself to be seen and heard from the spiritual realm into the natural realm, could only be it affecting the minds of these people, causing them to see into the spiritual realm. So for example, you know, there are a lot of people who either practice witchcraft and black magic, or they have those experiences, disturbing experiences. What is that? The spirits are just like for us as believers, the Holy Spirit speaks to us. He empowers us. He gives us visions and dreams as believers. So evil spirits affect people to give them those kinds of experiences by giving them information or experiences like seeing a vision. So that is how I would understand it. So for example, when Saul in the Old Testament, he went to this bitch. So very clear. She is practicing witchcraft. And he says, you bring me Samuel. I want to ask him something. Now you think Samuel is going to come and listen to a witch? No. Samuel is already in Abraham's bosom. He's dead. He's in a very safe place. Body is gone. Spirit is all there in Abraham's bosom. He's out. Which is going to come, Samuel, come, come. But what most likely would have happened is an evil spirit would have impersonated Samuel and pretend to be. This is a witch. She is dealing with evil spirits, not with the godly spirits. Impersonate Samuel and gives Saul the experience of interacting with that evil spirit. So he thinks he's seeing Samuel. But it is all a demonic, evil experience because he's gone to a witch. He didn't go to some prophet or something. But it's appearing as though everything is good, Samuel. So that is how I would understand that and explain it. But it's hard to give a clear chapter and verse on this and say, But this is how, because these evil spirits cannot just operate in the natural realm on the room without a body or an object. Yes. The evil spirit or the enemy will come as in the form of a lighting angel. There is one word, right? Angel of light. We refer to that. The messengers of Satan, they appear as angels of light. So can we use this scripture for what the answer that you have given or for this question? Sorry, let me just give you the exact verse. Sorry, it's not chapter 11. But let me give you correctly. Disobedience. Okay, correct. So I made a mistake. It's not chapter 10, but chapter 11. Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. So here, as can be seen by the context, he's not talking about evil spirits. He's talking about false apostles and false prophets, which are human beings. But they're actually messengers of Satan. So these human beings were messengers. They're preaching, doing all these things. They're actually messengers of Satan. But in appearance, they're like, oh, he's some God servant. He's from the kingdom of God, etc. So that's the context. All right, let's move forward. So we've been having good discussion on glorified bodies. And from there we went to another question. Okay, go ahead. You can ask in the mic. I mean, the continuation of this same question. I personally heard this thing. One pastor was telling, he's also a pastor. There are two brothers, both are pastors. So the elder brother died. Elder brother died. Two pastors, elder. They're both our brothers. So this pastor died with a heart attack. And then after a second day, the elder brother saw a vision or something. He saw something that his brother came to him and he directly spoke to him like, God didn't allow me to come into heaven because I have some debts to pay. So that's to pay. And then he thought it was something his own imagination. And next day also he came same like that and he told and he cried. And then immediately, their family also don't even know about this pastor have that with some person, particular person. And then this elder brother, this pastor went to that particular person and asked, is it true that my brother has debt for you? And then he cleared that 1.3 lakh something and no one knows that he took. And he cleared. And from after he cleared this debt, he never came into his vision or something like that. It's happened in the night. Is these things happen like this? See, I think it's very possible, but the way it would have happened is most likely and I know I wasn't there in that person's experience, but my thought would be that God would have spoken through a dream through this younger brother, right? Or through some sort of a spiritual experience, either through a dream or through a vision or a trance. God would have spoken to this younger brother for the sake of that person whose debt needed to be cleared. This older brother who died must be happily sitting in heaven. He won't be knowing. He may not even be knowing this is happening. But in this particular case, God, because he's sovereign and he wants to do something in this particular case, would have spoken to this younger brother through a dream or a vision or some spiritual experience, revealing to him that, hey, this debt has to be paid. Go do it. It doesn't mean that the brother actually literally came. So example, Peter, Acts 10. Peter is on the terrace. He's praying. Suddenly he falls into a trance and he sees one big bedsheet, big sheet. On it, all kinds of animals and creeping things are there. Now it doesn't mean literally there are these creatures and one bedsheet is actually coming. No. God is speaking in truth, in a trance. So if we ask Peter, what did you see? I saw full animals are coming from heaven. They're coming in a big bedsheet. The sheet like this is coming three times. God is saying, Peter, arise and eat. And I told God, God, I don't eat this kind of food. So it seems like real. He might even mention the names of the animals that he saw. It seems like real, but actually it's a spiritual experience and God is communicating something to Peter. Peter, don't call those whom I have sanctified. Don't call them unclean. That is a message. And that helped Peter go to the house of Cornelius and preach the gospel. So that was the work God wanted, but the spiritual experience was about all these animals and creatures, but was it literal? No. There's a spiritual experience, but God was telling him a message. So I think that is how this younger brother would have had that experience. No, because it's not in the Bible, right? It is just a message. Similarly, when Peter is saying, so does God actually want him to kill all those animals and eat? No, no, no. It's just a message. In fact, according to Peter's tradition, he should not be eating those animals, with God himself said in the Old Testament. So it almost seems like it's contradicting scripture, but the point is something different. So we should go with the message, not with this, right? So like in this case, it is contradicting scripture that he couldn't enter heaven because there were some debts or not. It's not biblical as such, but the message is, hey, go and clear the debt over to this man. That's it. So imagine if Peter said from now onwards, you have to eat all these kinds of animals. That is not what Peter preached. So that's a misinterpretation of that experience. So Peter understood what that experience was. It is meant to go and preach the gospel to the Gentiles. So he didn't start interpreting. From now onwards, all of us Jews can eat anything we want to. He didn't. So then what the younger pastor is preaching a message based on an experience, which is not correct. It'll stay with the Bible. Okay. Interesting. Let's move forward. Maybe stop. So this coming of the Lord is going to take place like a thief in the night. It means it's going to happen unexpectedly, without any warning. It has happened in a moment. So let's read that. First Thessalonians chapter five versus one to 11, please. First Thessalonians five, one to eleven. Somebody can read it. Thessalonians chapter five verse one to eleven. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them as a labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you brethren are not in darkness so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sense of light and sense of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep as others do, but let us watch, be sober for those who sleep at night and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober. But putting on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us that whether we wake or sleep we should live together with Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another just as you also are doing. So this is saying 1st Thessalonians where Paul has just finished telling us about the rapture. Chapter 4 we read 1st Thessalonians 4, 13 to 18, the rapture. So he's continuing on the same theme. Okay, he has just finished. So remember when Paul wrote it, he was not writing in chapter and verse. It is all one flow. So he has just spoken about being caught up to the Lord and then he continues, this day concerning the times in Brethren season Brethren, you know, you don't need me to tell you this because this day comes like a thief in the night. So when exactly this is going to happen, he has just told them about being caught up to the Lord. When it's going to happen, it'll come like a thief in the night, meaning it is unannounced. You know, thief doesn't say, hey, tomorrow night 1045 I will come to your house. Normally people won't do that. It just comes when least expected. So it's come like a thief in the night. So we have to be ready all the time. Be sober, be ready all the time. And then he tells us that the reason this whole thing is happening, it is in verse 9. So remember, it's all in one thought. The rapture is happening. We're all going to meet the Lord in the air. We don't know when this is happening. It'll happen suddenly when we're not expecting. So we should live ready, live in a state, always be ready, be sober, be walking in faith and love and all of that. And then he says, verse 9, because God does not want us to experience wrath, but to experience the salvation that is in Jesus Christ. So this is another reason which we will again come back to later. It's telling us, hey, God, this experience of being caught up together with the Lord will happen suddenly. And the reason it's happening is because God does not want us, verse 9, he has not appointed us to wrath, the judgment. Wrath means judgment. So the seven years of tribulation are seven years of judgment on the earth. And God is taking us out of the way before the wrath, before the judgment is being poured out on the earth. So here's another reason. We'll put all this together in a list later on. But here's another reason why we are saying this rapture will happen before the day of wrath. Because if you see how he has written it, this will happen. You're caught up to be with the Lord. Comfort yourselves. And this will happen suddenly. So be ready. And the reason it's happening is God doesn't want us to experience wrath, judgment. But here's a point of salvation. Therefore, comfort yourself with these words. Verse 11, verse 15. So this happens like a thief in the night. And again, it kind of reinforces our understanding that it'll happen before the tribulation. The next section there on page, page 55 is about the trumpet of God, the two trumpets which we already explained. So let's go to the next section. Believers will be in heaven for seven years. Okay. Now, let me make one statement here. And we will... So in this rapture, in this rapture, which we just read, verse 11, verse 15. Again, this is something that people have different opinion about. So I'll just give my thought or my understanding, which is when the Bible says, the Lord will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. My understanding is that will not just include New Testament believers, but also the Old Testament saints. Now, some people, when you read some, they explain that Old Testament saints will be resurrected at the end of the tribulation. But what I feel, what I, my understanding is that in this rapture of the church, what we call the rapture of the church, the church is caught up and God brings with them those who have fallen asleep. It will include the Old Testament saints. Why we say that? Because remember, in the Old Testament, all the people who died, the saints like Abraham, Moses, all the bodies decayed. They went to Abraham's bosom. Their spirit and soul went to Abraham's bosom, which is in Hades, the lower parts of the earth. They had to be there. They couldn't go to heaven until Christ died and rose. When Christ died and rose, when Jesus rose up from the dead, then the Bible says, he took captivity captive with him. So those who were held there, he took them with him into heaven. So paradise moved from being on the earth as part of Hades. It moved into heaven. So saints also went there. But they are in spirit and soul body, not physical body. Physical body already decayed. So they also need their resurrected glorified bodies. So they are there in heaven now with the Lord. And Hebrews 11, the last two verses, I think it was 30th, 39th, it says that they without us will not be made perfect. Or if you put it in a positive way, they will be made perfect together with us. Old Testament saints, all the Hebrews 11 mentions all the heroes of faith. And it says we will be perfected together. So that's why I think that when the churches believers who have died in Jesus are receiving glorified bodies, Old Testament saints will also receive glorified bodies. That is my understanding, because Hebrews 11 says we will be made perfect together. Okay, but there will be some books you read and some others who will say, okay, rather the church happens, but the Old Testament saints will receive their glorified bodies at the end of the tribulation. Some people will say like that. Okay, but my understanding is that he said we'll be perfected together. So that means that's why I would like to say that it happens at that time. Hebrews chapter 11, 39 and 40. He's talking about all the Old Testament saints. He says all these having obtained a good testimony through faith, they did not receive the promises. They were looking for the promises. A city was builder and maker was God. They were looking for this, all the things God had promised. Verse 40, God having provided something better for us that they should not be made perfect apart from us. We are going to be made perfect together. So that's why I'm saying that, but again, we're not 100% sure. But this is what it's like. And I feel very strongly we'll all, the Old Testament saints will come and we'll all receive glorified bodies together. Yes, question? When we are talking about this, when Jesus ascended, he took the captivities captive. So he took the paradise to heaven. So can you please clear me that it's the paradise? Like if this is a paradise, if there are saints in this paradise, he took this paradise into heaven and he kept the paradise in heaven. Or he just took all the persons who are here, all the spirits who are there. He directly took the spirits into heaven. What is the paradise? Did he take the apartment or the people inside the apartment? Because there is a lot of discussion happening on this passage. Okay, so if we go by the language used in the Bible, then he took the apartment because Jesus told the thief, today you will be with me in paradise. So he went there, also called Abraham's Pusan. Then New Testament, 2 Corinthians, Paul says, I was caught up to the third heavens, to the paradise of God. Let me give you the exact words. 2 Corinthians, chapter 12, sorry, verse 4. Paul is speaking about himself in third person. He says, how he was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words. 2 Corinthians 12, verse 4. And you again see this in Revelation, I think Revelation 2. Jesus is talking about the paradise. Revelation 2 or 3, let me just, he mentions this. Okay, what is this verse? Revelation, I know he mentions this about as one of the rewards. Let me go, I will write his name. 2, verse 7. Yeah, thank you. Revelation 2, 7. He was here, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches, to him who overcomes. I'll give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. So going by the language, Revelation 2 and verse 7. So going by the language again, let me see here. Yeah, going by the language, I think, Paradise, whatever that was, that place was relocated to heaven. That's what I think because it's using the same word before the cross, after the cross, paradise. But there is nothing wrong if we say, well, paradise is where the people of God are. Where the people of God are, that's what makes it the paradise where God is. So it may not have been a physical relocation, just that the people move so that they are is called paradise. Could be that way. But just going by the language, the text, I think Paradise was physically moved into heaven. But like you said, people could explain it both ways. And there could be arguments on it. Don't worry, we'll all go. We'll find out when we get there. Now the next question arises, if we die as believers, then where we'll go? To the paradise or to the heaven? So like Paul said, there seems like there are different levels or layers in heaven. Because he says he was caught up to the third heaven. This is 2 Corinthians 12. And he says, I was second on this 12. And he says, it's called in the paradise, verse 2. God knows that someone was caught up to the third heaven. And there he talks about the paradise. So if there is a third heaven, then there has to be a second heaven and a first heaven. 2 Corinthians 12. So the paradise is in the third heaven. Now, why there has to be this third heaven, second heaven, first heaven? I don't know. But he's saying, the paradise, he was caught up to the third heaven and paradise was there. Now, here's a question. What is the third heaven? Can be interpreted in two ways. The third heaven could refer to the entire realm in which God is living. First heaven is the atmospheric heaven. Second heaven is the spiritual. The heaven leaves the spiritual realm in which the demons are operating. Third heaven is the realm in which God is living. So we can look at third heaven as the entire realm in which God is living. Heaven. It can be understood that way. Or some people say, oh, there are three compartments in heaven. First heaven, second heaven, third heaven. And paradise is in the third heaven. Some people may say, so you have, you can hear both interpretations. And we can't fight over it because this is the only place we read about it. So there's not more scriptures to explain correctly. So what would my personal position is? First heaven is the atmospheric heaven. Second heaven is the spiritual heavenlies where principalities, powers, demonic powers are operating. Third heaven is used as to refer to the place where God dwells. Where is, where there is, where paradise is part of it. And the heavenly city Jerusalem and where our mansions are. So that is the third heaven. That is my understanding because we also see, you know, many places in the Bible, it talks about the heavens, other work of your hands. So which heaven is he referring to? Oh, he's talking about the atmospheric heavens, the natural heavens. But then Baskar also says there are spirits of wickedness in the heavenlies. Oh, so which heaven is that? So that's a spiritual realm where demons are allowed to operate. But then we also know God is in the heaven. God is in heaven. Oh, which heaven is that? That's the third heaven, the heavens where God lives, where the mansions are and so on. So that's my understanding. But you will hear people talk about, sometimes people even say seventh heaven. So they talk about seven layers in heaven. Some people write about it, but there's no scriptural basis for it. They just base it on some of their experiences and all that. So I wouldn't pay attention to that because you can't back it up with scripture. Yeah. So there is another scripture which souls rest in paradise, resting in paradise and all. Oh, sorry, souls resting in paradise, souls. I know Revelation talks about the spirits of those who are martyred, who are seen under the throne of God. So that is them. You are saying, but I don't know scripture on what? Souls in paradise. Yeah, I'm not sure. Okay. And you just have a look and if you find it resting in paradise. Well, that could be the in Luke. I think in Luke 16, when the Lazarus died, he was taken into Abraham's bosom. I don't know if that's what you're referring to. Okay, let me just mention this and then we will stop. So okay, if you find the reference that you are thinking about, let me know and we can discuss it. But here on page 56, so believers will be after the rapture, what will happen? We will be in heaven, which I would say third heaven will be there and we will be there for seven years. Seven years because seven years of tribulation is going on on the earth. So seven years of tribulation on the earth. Believers are in heaven. What are we going to do during that time? We see many things in scripture, which I've just listed here on page 56. We will be with him in glory. We will see him as he is. We'll be like him living in glorified bodies. We'll know God as we are known. Our spirits are going to be just opened up to see here and know things which we've never been able to experience this side. I will be welcomed into mansions in heaven. I will also stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive rewards for the works we've done. He'll worship God. He'll be joined in worship by tribulation, martyrs. And finally it'll end with the marriage supper of the Lamb. Let's explain this in our next class. What are we going to be doing during the seven years in heaven? We'll look at some of these details. Let me just pause and see if there are any questions from our online students. Any questions from our online students? I know you've been listening here. Any questions? No questions. Fine. So let's pause here. Next week we'll pick up and talk about some of the key things what we believers will be doing in heaven for seven years. What are some of the things that we see in scripture? We'll go through a few of those verses that are listed there. And then after that we'll turn our attention to the earth. What is going to happen seven years on the earth? And we'll kind of just go through the book of Revelation in sequence. Just highlight some things. So can somebody please pray and we will close after that. Dear Heavenly Father, thank You Lord, thank You for this class. Thank You for teaching us so many things about the end times a lot. Lord help us to be the witnesses of You a lot being here knowing about Your resurrection and the rapture. Lord help us to be a witness and to glorify You a lot in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you everyone for being part of the class again. Thank you.