 you know, there's the scene in the first Matrix movie at the very end where, you know, after Neo gets, you know, beat up and shot and stuff, you know, he pops back up and, you know, he looks around and then it just cuts to the scene where you see, like, the green coating, right? And so now he has this awakening, he's seeing everything around him in a different light and that was the experience for me of discovering biomimicry where, you know, it was like, I'd look at a tree and it's like, no, it's not just a tree, it's also a power plant, right? It's, you know, it's also this amazing vertical plumbing model, right? You know, capillary action, all these things just, you know, the possibilities and the applications became endless for me. Billy Allman is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas. Brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Billy is an astrobiofuturist exploring biology inspired solutions to improve the human condition for those of us on earth and those who will travel to the stars. He speaks to multiple generations of inventors, designers, scientists and engineers on designing the future they wish to see. He has spoken to groups at Harvard University, Rhode Island School of Design, Arizona State University, NASA, NAACP, Hidden Genius Project, Comic Con, and many, many more places. Previously, Billy was a creative director at the Walt Disney Imagineering, leading efforts to develop immersive experiences and environments around the world. He is an inventor and holds a master's degree in biomimicry from Arizona State University and bachelor's degree in architecture from Hart Howard University. Billy sits on the board of directors for the Biomimicry Institute, the world's leading authority on nature solutions to design challenges. Billy, welcome to the show! Thank you. So happy to be here talking to you. I'm excited just from the not recorded part of our conversation we already started to have. Yeah, I'm so excited too. I mean, you're a rock star. You know, I've watched some of the things you've done and you're blessed. You get to go to some beautiful places, see some amazing things. I've heard your speeches. You're doing some great stuff and I'm jealous, but I'm glad that I can vicariously live through you and watch you do those fabulous things. I thank you for that. You're really paving the way for many, many youth and many people in this world. Thank you, brother. I appreciate that. I really appreciate you and it's just fun to watch you because I can tell it's your passion and you're having fun while you're doing it. You've been doing this for a while and you've been on this journey for a while and especially I love how something that in many respects could be boring or kind of bureaucratical kind of the academic road where there's not a lot of excitement and stuff. You've managed to make it at least from the outside look like a real fun journey along the way and to make the best out of it. I appreciate you saying that because that's something that means a lot to me to hear people say that kind of thing because so much of what I've been doing and I'm trying to do is just about relatability and accessibility. So I really appreciate you saying that. Yeah, it's so important because it's for us all. Everything you're doing benefits us all. Whether we're the couch or the armchair person who's never leaving the house to see it, it can watch you through TV and through the animal planet or if we say, okay, now that has inspired me to go out there and kind of take a peek myself. Billy can do it, we can do it. So I really love that. But having said that, you've kind of been on this path for some time doing these great things. But now the true question is how in the heck have you weathered this unbelievable crazy time? So the pandemic, COVID lockdowns, Black Lives Matter, Asian racism, the whole craziness around Brexit and the inauguration and all the I mean, there couldn't be more and it doesn't seem to be slowing any maybe there's a slight pause. But one I want to know, as any of that past experience and your connection to nature proven to be better models for life that have helped you resiliently or get through to this point a little bit better than others? And how have you been? How's that journey been? And how what are your learning lessons during this time? I want to know if you're okay. And then, wow, okay, I saw this and this and this and learned this. And here's some better ways to do it than maybe if you had that experience at all. Okay, so first, this is this is how I can tell that you're an empathetic person. The fact that you as a as a host of a podcast started by just asking me if I'm okay in the midst of everything that's going on, I deeply appreciate and I think that's actually awesome. So props to you, sir, for that. I think, you know, I will say I'm as well as I can be. And I say that gratefully, because, you know, I know that where I am, a lot of people are not in their life, in their journey, in their understanding of how to, you know, how to adjust and adapt to, you know, crazy, unforeseen circumstances. You know, I'm okay. I'm content. You know, I'm a, I don't want to say I'm a person of faith, because I think there's a lot of connotation to that. But I'm someone who believes in the words of Christ. And, you know, I think this idea of being content with where you are is a big thing that helps you weather a lot of storms and having perspective. And I do think, you know, to your point, early on, I got to travel the world. My parents, my dad was in the military, my mother worked for the Department of Defense and Human Resources. So we, you know, we traveled around the world. When I was, you know, a baby, I was born in Germany. So from a very early age, I've had this. Yes, I was born in Nuremberg. I used to live there. Oh yeah? Yeah. I was born in Nuremberg and then I lived in Heidelberg for two years and I went to university in Heidelberg. Oh, it's the best. It's the best. I can still see the castle. We used to live across the river from the castle up the hill and it was just, I mean, it's just beautiful. Me too. I lived in a place called Siegelhausen right across the castle, right across the Neckar in Siegelhausen. So it was a little bit up from the Romantic Bridge, but yeah, as well. And right now I'm in Hamburg, Germany calling you. So we're having this call. So yeah, my mom was German. So yeah, I love it. I know exactly where you're coming from. I feel like we were near Siegelhaus because when you said that, that rung some bells, we lived up the hill a little bit across from, yeah, yeah. And I just remember, oh man, we would get picked up. The thing that I loved about it was we lived, we lived in the economy, so we didn't live on base. And so the bus driver would come and every day it would be a different bus, right? They're renting these buses. So sometimes it would be a small bus and then sometimes it would be those luxury tour buses. And as a middle schooler, that was all the rave for the kids that would get on because we would watch TV. Anyway, the thing I loved most about that was the bus driver, he had this very baritone voice. And when you get on, you always say, boost pass, boost pass. And I don't know, there's just something about it. There's that and just the food. I miss Germany. I need to make a trip out there. But anyway, I'm sorry, I digress. Caught up in nostalgia. But I think that having, when I was 15, my parents had separated and I was living with my mother and then we moved from, I think we were in Arizona to South Korea. And I was a teenager. And so that was a huge culture shock for me in the best way possible. And it gave me this perspective of the world that I hadn't had at that time. And it was really important time for me because I was a teenager. So I was kind of having my own sense of self identity discovery and all that and to have it in this environment that is completely different. And I remember one day I was on the bus going home and we had pulled up to a stop sign and I saw these two Korean girls having a conversation and they were laughing. And it was something about seeing them laugh that kind of clicked in my mind that like they could be laughing about something that one of my friends and I are laughing or laughing about. And it just kind of humanized the place in a way that I hadn't had the perspective of realizing yet. And that was when kind of my mind just expanded that like we're all very different, but we're all human. So we're very much the same. And so I think that sense of perspective has allowed me to not get too high or not get too low depending on what's happening. And also I think the more that you study the past, the more you can see the patterns of the present and the more awareness you have of where you can hopefully change the future. So the thing about COVID for me was a lot of a lot of things that people have been saying for a very long time that have been around for a very long time came to the surface for people who for whatever reason were not aware. A lot of people had an awakening in that time period because it just exposed everything. Because in a lot of ways, I don't want to say it leveled the playing field, but it made a base exposure. Like everyone was going through this one thing all at the same time across the world. And then in addition to that, you could also see all the other things that were also happening that we weren't distracted with our phones and with living the nine to five lifestyle. All of that, all those distractions went away in a lot of ways to really expose these moments. And so if you know that those moments are already happening and you have a perspective of the human condition for other people in other places, it doesn't catch you as off guard. It doesn't make it as hard. It doesn't make it any easier to adjust to. But it does help give you perspective of we're okay right now. This is not ideal, but this is not as bad as it could be. So I think that that combination of perspective and kind of just trying to understand the history of different things help kind of prepare me for just the waves that we've been experiencing. I love it. You're so human and humane and your responses. And I just feel like you know, in many levels we're connecting. I experienced that as well. My father was in the Air Force. He was a weatherman for AFN. My mother was an air traffic controller at Stuttgart Airport and from a long history of Germans who were organic farmers and things. And so it was you know, I'm from America. I'm from America. But because of that connection through military and my mother being German had these great ties to Germany. So I love how you integrated that, which changed your world of the view to deal with times, these crazy times that were you know, 15 months, 18 months later now kind of hopefully coming out of it into the next craziness that will happen, you know, the next pandemic, whatever is coming our way, climate change. But so I love those experiences. And the same thing I relate. I gave me this feeling as a global citizen, seeing the world in a different light, different cultures and how that we're all humans. And really that almost takes us right down the first rabbit hole that I that I want to go to. So we're both like space and talk about space. I'm a big Carl Sagan fan and and you know, he he talked many times he says that there's this awakening that sees the earth as a single organism and an organism divided amongst itself is doomed or at war with itself is doomed. And it's so true because we're all Homo sapiens before discussion started the recording today we're talking about the new hominid that that came up and that's because I'm interested in that. But really, we are all star stuff. Another thing that starred us that, you know, Carl Sagan said that the basic elements of life were made in the interiors of collapsing stars, right. And those are also the basic elements that formed our earth and of which we crawled out of this primordial soup and evolved into Homo sapiens, you know, after we had, you know, many other hominids and the great apes that that, you know, kind of bonobo chimpanzee and we kind of walked came on to the scene. But I want to kind of go into this thing with with that guys of that bigger pictures cosmic perspective and overview effect which also comes from space. You feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel about a world without nations, borders and divisions of humanity, one from another. And how do you feel about those things that Carl Sagan said, you know, that the entire earth is one organism and we're part of that organism. And if we're divided amongst each other, we've seen the nationalism arise during the inauguration and the pandemic all over the world, not just the US, but all over the world, people are at this ease and unrest. So I want to get your viewpoints on that. Maybe if you'll even dive in a little bit more on space or the connection about how we crawled out of this primordial soup where we are all humans. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that. And I'm so glad that you said that because there's so many there's so many different touch points there, right? You know, my so I have a I have an amazing wife who gave birth to who is now two two we have two kids. One is six years old now. The other just turned one. What's the day the 2028 those about 10 10 days ago plus or minus. Okay, I know the birth date. I just don't know how many days ago it was. And the thing that I've you know, when my my oldest daughter, my name is Lexie. And anytime that we, you know, it's time to put it to bed, we say our prayers. And the thing that I always ask her and always remind her is what are you made of and her answer to me will be stardust. So, you know, I think it's it, you know, part of why I love reminding her of that is one for that sense of connection to everything on an, you know, an ethereal, you know, spiritual level. And two, because I think it also speaks to infinite possibilities. And I want to remind her that, you know, she can do anything she can be anything. And, you know, there's with with with biomimicry, which I'm sure we'll talk about later. You know, it's this idea of looking to nature, studying nature, in order to tap into, you know, the 3.8 plus billion years of, you know, what we refer to as like evolutionary R&D, right? These organisms that have been trying, you know, not not to anthropomorphize them, but you know, they've been having these, you know, trial and error failures in their biology over, you know, millions and billions of years, and tapping into that to discover opportunities for, you know, sustainable innovation. And, you know, when one of the things that we've been doing at the Institute is really, you know, making sure that we're doing everything as possible to be as inclusive of all, you know, cultures that have practiced this over, you know, time and memorial. And so that we've had this really great training. We've had a really a lot of really great insights from indigenous indigenous, different indigenous people. And there was this one indigenous elder, this one woman who, you know, she went on this beautiful, you know, she was she was, she was on her podium, you know, she was she was and she was she was flowing and she had such beautiful words. And one of the things she said was, you know, people talk about, you know, people talk about how man was made in the image of God, right? And she says, well, what wasn't made in the image of God? And it was something about the way that she asked that that really kind of just expanded, you know, like, yeah, like what what wasn't if you have that if you have that point of view in that perspective. And the way that she was saying it was she was speaking to this idea that everything is connected, everything has, you know, a divine quality to it. And so everything is sacred. And, you know, just connecting that back to the stars when you whether you you look at a rock or whether you look at, you know, a frog or the stars or the planet, you know, this idea that we are all stardust, we are all made of the same things, we're just different manifestations of a beautiful, you know, divine nature. If you, you know, have that inclination, but even if you don't, you know, to speaking to, you know, your point around Carl Sagan, you know, the fact that I was just reading an article, there's a book that I just picked up yesterday, I just ordered yesterday, called The Journey of Trees. And it talks about how forests migrate over time very slowly. And, you know, there's there's the Gaia theory, you know, all of these beautiful explorations and expression of this idea that collectively, we are alive, as well as individually, right? Like, in a lot of ways, we as humans are the cells of this overall beautiful, you know, living, breathing planet, right? You know, when the when the forest fires were in Brazil, you know, a lot of people became aware of just the the importance of, you know, of those of those trees of those forests to allowing the entire planet to breathe, right? So I feel like I'm going on a on a diatrile. No, you're not. Absolutely not. Yeah. I everything that you said, I just totally resonated with. And I think that there's the more that we tap into that, you know, emotionally, spiritually, you know, psychologically, technologically, you know, I think the the the the better we can make so many different parts of our lives. And again, I think that also speaks to what I was saying earlier about perspective. So The Journey of Trees is really from Zach St. George, I think. And but there's another one that was from Stefano Mancuso out of Italy. He just came out with a great book that I would recommend. It's called The Nation of Plants. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And he he kind of does a unique twist where he he goes forward and he says, I'm speaking to the United Nations as a plant. And I want to give you the constitutional or the article, so to say, for the nation of plants. And boy, it's such a great read. But yeah, he also has a prior book. And I think I think it's similar to The Journey of Plants as well, how plants and trees have really spread around the world. And that's a hard thing to do for a plant, you know, as humans, it's easy. But as a plant, that's a little bit takes a little bit more work. But yeah, there's some absolute fabulous books out there. And I appreciate you kind of coming back and grounding us all with how you're saying, you know, where we're all crawled out of this primordial soup. Yeah, we're from our mothers. But our mothers, mothers, mothers, mothers, they're from the primordial soup. And the original human beings are our hominid ancestors, you know. And that's what we were talking about before, just for our listeners, is that just June 24, they came up with or they discovered a new hominid out of China is called the Dragon Man as kind of a nickname. But the homo term is homo longi. And the Dragon Man is because I think because it was discovered in China. And there's a sister of homo sapiens. And now that's the number nine hominid to add to that tree of life. But originally, really, and this is what you touched upon in your 3.8 billion years in your biomimicry, is not only did the earth start with those basic elements of life, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, which are in our body and which are the elements that were made up as well. So we're integrally tied to this. But the original was really microorganisms, bacteria were the beginnings. And they're still around. So they're not only part of the beginnings of life on our earth and what helped change the atmosphere to give us oxygen and the right temperatures. But they're still around thriving, going strong. And that's why this concept of a nation of plants is also very interesting because they've been doing it billions of years where we're just squeaking around a couple of minutes to a couple of seconds on the big scale of things of how long we've been on the scene here on earth. You've nicely kind of segwayed in because you mentioned biomimicry. I've had Mark Dorfman from the Biomimicry Institute as well on the show. He was fabulous. He's a great guy. But I really believe that when we talk about circular economy or the new materials of things, that if we mimic nature and biology of life, that there's some great learning lessons and also some better wisdoms than what we've been muddling through trying to do ourselves. And I would kind of like to know, I mean, because you're pretty active and you have been over the years in this. And you talk about it besides animal planet. So I'd like you to go a little bit deeper on how that journey started and maybe what some of the things you're working on specifically for that and catch us up to speed on what's happening there and what or maybe some things that we're even seeing in our world that have come out of the Institute or come into the material world now that actually were developed in that area. Yeah. Yeah. I think the first thing I like to tell people is that my background is as a designer and all design, all good design is about problem solving. So I don't come to biomimicry from necessarily a biological academic background. And I think that's why the way that I communicate biomimicry and the way that I talk about biologies, it's not as sophisticated of language, because that's not just that's just not where my orientation to biomimicry was. And so actually, I found out about biomimicry as a result of reading Jeanine Benius's book, Biomimicry, Innovations Inspired by Nature. She'd written it in, I want to say 1997. But before reading that, 2006 post Hurricane Katrina, I was a third year architecture student at the time. And myself, my girlfriend, who then became my wife, the two of us and hundreds of other Howard University students, just seeing what had happened to the Gulf Coast, it really affected us. So we actually drove down to the Gulf Coast during our spring break to just volunteer in any way possible. And, you know, obviously that left a very indelible impression on me, one, because, you know, looking at this from an architectural, you know, urban design, urban planning perspective, you have a million questions. And then also, you know, me being a black male, you know, in America, you know, a lot of it was like, how, why does this, you know, just seeing the devastation to the Lower Ninth Ward, you know, why does this continue to happen to us? You know, why, how do we prevent this from happening? And so the combination of, you know, my experience as a black male in America and my experience as a designer, seeing this firsthand and up close, intersected, and tried to answer that question through both lens. And that's actually how I discovered Jeanine Venious's book and researching that for my thesis project. And it just blew me away. It, you know, it just, you know, learning how mangrove roots, you know, mangrove trees, their roots help to withstand the forces of, you know, tidal waves and hurricane forces, hurricane force winds. And, you know, learning about wetlands and their importance, you know, and how, you know, just over time, you know, the landscape has been sculpted intentionally to reduce these natural barriers and natural, you know, areas of protection. It just blew my mind and opened up all these possibilities. So, you know, there's this scene in the first Matrix movie at the very end, where, you know, after Neo gets, you know, beat up and, and shot and stuff, you know, he pops back up. And, you know, he looks around and then it just cuts to the scene where you see, like the green coating, right. And so now he has this awakening, he's seen everything around him in a different light. And that was the experience for me of discovering biomimicry, where, you know, it was like, I'd look at a tree and it's like, no, it's not just a tree, it's also a power plant, right. It's, you know, it's also this amazing, vertical plumbing model, right, you know, capillary action, all these things just, you know, the, the, the possibilities and the applications became endless for me in what I was seeing and discovering. And so, since then, I've just tried to find ways to, you know, kind of spread the gospel of biomimicry in a lot of ways. And so a lot of the work that I do now is around getting companies, organizations and, you know, leaders and STEM educators, you know, familiar with the idea of turning to nature for solutions. A lot of it's, you know, talking to kids and showing them like this robot was inspired by, you know, a cheetah, you know, or a get-go. You know, this thing in space is actually because they studied this, you know, one, one example that, that comes to mind right away. There's this company called Sharklet Technologies. And they studied the, the skin of, of sharks which are covered in these tiny little teeth called dermal denticles. And because of these tiny little teeth, it actually serves as an antimicrobial covering on their bodies that prevents, you know, bacteria from attaching and, and them getting, you know, ill and sick and infected and all this stuff. And so this company Sharklet mimicked the, the form, the, the shape of these teeth at a, you know, microscopic nanoscale. And they've created surface coverings that they've created surface covering, surface coverings and masks that, you know, you can put on a doorknob, you can put on a handrail and hospitals. And so when I think about, you know, this shark being the inspiration for something that can prevent the spread of an infectious disease during a pandemic, you know, it just speaks to and, and, and the, the beautiful thing about, you know, that particular example is it's something that doesn't require a lot of chemicals for cleaning, right? It's a natural antimicrobial surface, right? So we don't have to, we don't have to constantly reinvent the wheel and have waste, which is what we tend to do by turning to nature. And, and so, you know, the idea that nature has solved a lot of the problems that we are experiencing as humans was one of the things that I was like, okay, yeah. One, I can hopefully waste less time by turning to something that's already been through this, right? And two, for, for it to make, you know, my, my product or design or process more efficient, and hopefully more sustainable if I'm, you know, checking all my, my boxes, dotting my, my eyes and crossing my tees, then this thing, this biomimicry thing, which has been around since time immemorial, there's something to this. And so I just fell into it and just fell in love with it. Yeah, as you so eloquently said, 3.8 billion years of research and development, that's a long time to get it right to make sure it develops right. And I'm sure there's many iterations and species types that, that, that it probably went through that we don't know about or that maybe we do know about some. I actually, you know, when I had Mark Dorfman on as well, but I'm a big fan of Jeanine, there's both her books that you talked about. And, and I, I really would also recommend all our listeners that they go out and get that as, as you'll tell and, and most of my listeners know this, I'm having addiction to books I love to read, I love to speak with authors who's put a lot of time and wisdom basically to make sure that we're on the right side of history and that we get this knowledge evangelized or spread in different ways to everyone possible so that they can understand. Because if not, they're just, I don't want to call anyone ignorant, but you're in a, in a state of ignorance because you don't even know it exists. You're, you haven't got that information. And so even if you don't read the book, thank goodness we've got you on the podcast to, to give us the synopsis and to help us because you have this most eloquent way to, to almost turn it into edutainment where it's not only great to listen to you, but you have that design spirit, but also you make it so nice for those of you to watch and you, you get that innovation and the tech in and so, and that's something I really wanted to ask you about. So I, I have grandchildren, I have kids and my kids are all adults now, but I, you know, Fridays for Future and, and, and many other youth around the world I have taught and have, have been in conjunction with them and I, and I, I give them my best and I get good resonance, but I don't think I get as good of a response as you do. What are, what are the, the real, do you have any keys to success, to reaching those younger audiences and to get their eyes to light up and to see that? Do you have any little tips or tricks you can give this old, old, old guy on, on what to do better or maybe what you've seen in your teachings over the years? Yeah. I don't know if I could say they're successful, but they're, they're things that I'd try to do when, whenever I'm in engaging with kids. One, at, at any level, try to make, I try to make what I am, I'm doing or talking about as, as accessible as possible. You know, there's, I feel like a lot of my work is, is rooted in just exposure, right? Like, how do I get you to the door, make you curious and then let your curiosity take you through the door? I feel like that's where, you know, a lot of the things that I do. So sometimes it's not as, as deep or as complex, but it's just about having fun and, and getting past that initial hurdle of insecurity that people might have about whether or not they can do something or learn something, right? So, so my, my goal is really to help inspire you and make you feel like this is something that you could do too. Or, or this is something that you can, you know, I like to say you can dip your big toe in it right now, right? And then you can, you know, we'll get you swimming, but first we gotta get the big toe in, right? So, you know, a lot of it for me is just taking a lot of this, you know, really complex language and complex ideas and how do I, you know, how do I simplify this to like what is it's, what is its core essence, right? Like a lot of the work for me started with, you know, us going on these immersions into different ecosystems and studying them for when we're getting ready to start practicing biomimicry. And, you know, we would be there with these naturalists and biologists and they're talking, they're holding up like a frog or a lizard and, you know, and this is the da-da-da-da-da, right? And I would just be like, oh, so that's where the poop comes out, right? Like, that's all you had to say. That's where the poop comes out, right? Like, I don't need the, you know, the Latin is great, but, you know, that's the important thing is avoid that because that's where the poop comes out, right? So, so for me, it's just, you know, I like simple language. I love words as you can, I'm sure you can already tell. I love, you know, painting pictures with words, but when it comes to translating an idea, how do I get to the essence of this so that you can have your a-ha and then want to learn more? And then, okay, now I can add layers to it. So in a lot of ways, it's like design, right? You start with like the foundational thing and then, you know, design and storytelling have, you know, two things that I employ. And they're very similar, right? Like, a great story has layers to it. Beautiful designs have layers to it. So how do I, you know, create a foundation and how do I layer this so that I'm keeping you interested? And then by the time that we're done, you can look at it and see this beautiful, complex thing that you can now experience. And so in just in communicating an idea of, you know, a biological concept, how can I make this as immediately recognizable as possible? Like, what's the silhouette of what I'm talking about? And then, okay, now I can add detail around it because now we understand that this is where the poop comes out. So it's, I guess that's kind of weird. The simplistic version of it. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I know that potty talk usually gets most people motivated anyway, but no, I get where you're coming from. And I'm not way as well. So most people always think, you know, here comes Hillbilly Mark, the way he talks and that, but I really am trying hard to reach the younger audiences and empower them and get them out of this situation because I truly feel that our educational system is sort of lacking all over the world and we need some better improvements and that there's a lot of wonderful things emerging where people can go online and discover books and tools and kind of self-educate themselves in certain respect, but there's still that initial spark of where even to look sometimes and to follow those passions and to make the connections. I'm glad we have Ted Talks. And I'm, you know, Jane Benning gave a fabulous Ted Talk as well as Al Gore and many others, you know. And so that's a great place to see and then dive deeper. But sometimes it's really hard because your life gets in the way and we're in situations where we can't always find that. And I really like how you do that so nicely. One way that, I mean, this is what our listeners don't know is we're both friends without a Paris and that's kind of how you came to the podcast and she's a wonderful person and we're both Capricourse alumni as Friths Capra who does the Systems View of Life, but she's also our Buckminister Fuller Institute kind of fellow or student as well. And I've got his book here, this other one which ties us a little bit back to space. The Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth. And the crazy thing is it's on the inside cover, which most people don't know of this book. He gives his why, his, you know, the Simon Sinek why, the purpose for existing. It's so unbelievable, I want to read it to you. To make the world work for 100% of humanity in the shortest possible time through spontaneous cooperation without ecological offense or the disadvantage of anyone. This was written I think 1969 or something like that. And the guy's putting his why in there and it's a why for all of humanity, for all of ecology, for all of our earth and, you know, amazing. So and that's really what I try to do and I think you see that's what you want to do. You want to make sure how can we empower everybody with these wisdoms and knowledge. Do you have any connection with the Buck Minister Fuller Institute or how did you come to know Ada and how did that whole situation evolve? Yeah, so one shout out to Ada, like you are, you know, an amazing celestial, illuminous being. And actually we met on Clubhouse through another mutual friend, Marcus Anderson. He's also been on the podcast. I love that dude, he's amazing. They both are actually. And so actually I met and, you know, they have the ism.earth clubhouse room and, you know, podcast and all these, you know, cyborg anthropology and all these amazing things that they're working on. So we were in a clubhouse room. I'd met Marcus first and Ada had, I met Ada through us having conversation. And, you know, they just, they just, they express the most wondrous ideas about the inner working of, of, you know, who we are. And it's just, you know, it's just this, you know, just this transformative experience that you get to have when you just listen to them talk. So it was, it was, it was just a pleasure to just be in the room and, you know, they, you know, we started talking about biomimicry and, you know, all these other things. And, you know, we talk about, you know, we talk about, you know, people who put raisins in their potato salad and, you know, the connection of that to what supremacy and all these, all these fun little, if Marcus hears that, I know he's going to crack up laughing at that. That's a little inside joke that we have. But no, so we met through that and, you know, just getting to interact with her. And I mean, she's just a wonderful force of nature. And I'm so glad that we got to meet. And because of her, we've got to, you know, have our first interaction of many that I hope. So yeah, shout out to, to Ada and Marcus. Well, that's great. Yeah, they've both been on the podcast. Marcus's hasn't released yet. But so that's good to know that those ties, but you're, you have this web, this systems web of life already, you're pretty well connected to, to many different areas and your animal planet. Oh my God, animal planet, the little giants and all the things you've done there is absolutely amazing. And you immerse technology with it as well. Is that to get the results of biomimicry? Or is that more to quantify different things for better understanding and kind of tell us a little bit about the show and maybe your favorite experience. And then also a little bit behind, maybe behind the seeds or also how that tech involves and how that also ties the biomimicry, if you don't mind. No, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, first huge shout out to my big brother, Bradley Trevor grief, who he's my counterpart on the show. So he's a wildlife expert and an amazing author and just a beautiful human being in his own right. So he, he, the show is actually his idea. And he called me up one day because, you know, we've known each other for over a decade now. And he called me up one day he had already done a show for, for Animal Planet called, I want to say Fear Island, I want to say it's Fear Island, or is it Bear Island? I should know this, but it's one of those two, it's a great show on Animal Planet, where he's he's actually tracking this, this, this bear and it's a great show. So he calls me up, he's like, Hey, I've got this idea for a show. So we're going to be, you know, traveling around the world looking for these tiny organisms that have wonderful, really cool myths that they're associated with, and really, really cool adaptations. And I think it'll be hilarious if you and I were the host of this show. And I'm like, of course, like sign me up. Right. So I so, so we, we, we did the show. And it was, I mean, it was just amazing. We, I mean, we did, we traveled around the world, we were in, you know, Thailand, we were in, you know, we got, I finally got to go to South Africa as a result of the show. And I can't even remember all the places that we went, Madagascar. And, you know, we're looking for these tiny little things. And it's, it's hilarious because, you know, he and I are, you know, we're both 200 pound plus grown men. And we're looking for these things that are really small and really fast. So there's this, you know, kind of cat and mouse chase part to it. But then once we've had the opportunity to hopefully capture some of these organisms, we have this kind of mobile tent set out in the middle of nowhere, where we've tried to mimic, we've tried to mimic environments that these organisms would have to navigate in order for us to get really, really up close, beautiful shots of, of their adaptations. And we're also, we have these different instruments that we're using to actually measure, you know, the strength of their bite, you know, how fast they actually move through water, all of these different, you know, it's kind of this like animal Olympics in a way. And the point is, one, some of these organisms are endangered. So we're trying to highlight them to bring awareness around them by just showing how amazing they are. But two, also just showing again, like a lot of these things that are considered pests or, or annoyances are really beautiful, you know, just life forms, creations, whatever you want to call them. So, so in terms of biomimicry, what I loved about it was we got to, you know, kind of really examine the biomechanics of a lot of these organisms. Why are they shaped this way? Why, you know, why is it this small? The thing that we do in the show, not as a gag, but as just kind of a creative exploration is like pound for pound, if we were to scale this up to the size of a car, you know, the strength of its jaws at, you know, its regular size compared to its strength of its jaws scaled up pound for pound, what would mean that this could crush through, you know, a monster truck in one bite, you know, those kind of things. So creatively for kids, you know, you get to see these CGI, like Godzilla, like, you know, versions of these animals. And, you know, it brings their curiosity, but having the opportunity to really kind of just take a different lens, which is what a lot of biomimicry is rooted in is looking at all of these life forms through the lens of innovation, you know, seeing, you know, the Boston Dynamics dog, right, that robot dog that people were paying $75,000 for, you know, it's really cool. But the thing that it's based on is even cooler, you know what I mean. So that's what I love about the show. And yeah, it was amazing. And I'm looking forward to doing more things like that in the future. That's awesome. I really love that insight. And yeah, you there was one you even did the Flying Dragon, right? Yeah. And there's I mean, there's so many cool things that you did. But I hope there's still some place probably online that you can see, see it or watch it. I'm sure there's somewhere that you can still see him. And great, great. I hope people will go out there and take a look at those. I want to get into a little bit more of space. But before that, I'm going to kind of throw in some controversy. So you saw me grabbing books and grabbing books like crazy. But there's this book, it's called The Human Condition. You mentioned the human condition in the beginning. It's pretty old, actually. This is looks like it's brand new. This is the second or third edition. Hannah aren't and she was a German born American from a Jewish family. But she really talked to us about hierarchies and structures and how that are really that some of the atrocities and some of the things that are done are because of these bad systems that humanity has adopted these hierarchies where there's this one boss at the top who's telling the other minions at the bottom what to do. And they're just doing it. They're not saying is that good or bad because it's a bad system. It's a bad structure. And that's probably a whole another controversy or not thing that we could go down. But that's not how the world works. And that's why that's why I'm bringing it up. Because there's one of my favorite scientists, one of my favorite evolutionary biologists and scientists of all time is Lynn Margolis. I don't know if you've ever heard of Lynn Margolis. This is one of her books. She symbiotic planet and she coined the term or she was really who defined and understood the term symbiosis. And here's another book her book micro cosmos. And I show these all the time but people still to this day haven't figured out who Lynn Margolis is and how she turned the entire scientific community on their head. One she was a woman. The second she's the first wife of Carl Sagan. Oh, you believe ability the first wife of Carl Sagan and her book microcosmos Carl Sagan did the cosmos series. Her her one of her first books was the microcosmos most successful books. And she said that everything in our world works in collaboration and cooperation and symbiosis and harmony so to say. And she did it from this microorganism the bacteria is the beginnings of life that's 3.8 billion years ago that you're discussing through biomimicry. And she the reason she turned the entire scientific community on its head and went this is because she challenged the notion of neoliberalism and neoliberalism now most people won't understand that and I know you want to put it in simple terms. I'm going to give you the simple term neoliberalism and neoliberalism says it's natural selection survival of the fittest severe competition only the strong survive that's bullshit that I'm sorry kids. It's BS it doesn't exist. That's not how our world works our world works in symbiosis and harmony in collaboration and cooperation that's truly how everything in our world works. One organism's waste is another one's energy and it's this big symbiosis of life. And that's the true and we are an organism we have tons of bacteria in our body. And so that goes back to this human condition. It goes back to hierarchies and structures. They don't work they don't they're there that's not how life works so why are we fighting it. Let's get in there and so you as the biofuturist and all the wonderful things you do on biomimicry I kind of want to get into before we go more into space really how in the heck are we going to solve this how we're going to get more people thinking and realizing that these hierarchial structures and that the true way that the world works so that we can get rid of some of these nationalistic and these problems that we're experiencing because it's it's Einstein's problems theory we're continuing to repeat these mistakes over and over again instead of looking towards nature looking towards microorganism to find the solution that really can take us multiple generations together. Yeah I think I mean even even you know even the the idea of survival of the fittest right as as a concept was you know egregiously taken out of context right like that that's that that's really speaking more to just you know niches right and how you know the the optimal organism within a given niche or within a given you know kind of micro environment will be you know successful in in thriving in that environment not not literally the strongest right it is spoke more to resilience than it did like strength and then the other thing I want to point out is I just saw this you know great article it's actually a couple years old that spoke to this idea of the alpha male and you know the myth around the alpha male and how in wolf packs you know the idea of the alpha male is actually not accurate most of the quote-unquote alpha males are you know the the fathers and and the other males are usually their offspring so this idea of you know the supreme strongest male and people referencing that as it relates to wolves is even incorrect you know it's a it's a family structure and and you know again it's symbiotic it's learning it's you know all of those things so there's so many concepts that you know it just are rooted in this one period of time where there was only one group of voices speaking erroneously that has been so pervasive over centuries you know I'm thinking of you know the there's I want to say it's like the the trees of mankind or something like that you know all of those erroneous you know phrenology and you know all the all these things started at the same time and you know it's 2021 and we're still addressing these things from you know the mid you know the the late 19 the early 19th century right they're still pervasive in our culture today so how do we uproot them how do we get rid of them one we have to do a lot of myth busting right like this conversation is great and the storyteller in me from my you know from my background sees that as being immensely important there's you know a couple of I mean we'll have the book list pop up later but actually there's this one book that I'm reading now on you know West African griots griots and the thing that I love about it is it speaks to just you know most people just see them as storytellers but they're so much more complex and so much more you know dynamic and and and you know rooted in in you know this historical accounting right and it's it has to be extremely accurate and I think that's part of what we have to do is we have to go back and retell the story correctly right get everyone aligned with you know this is actually what happened and actually we we had that idea but it was wrong right and and that you know we were talking about like you know the political upheaval and all these things that in and of itself is a huge burden that we have to cross we have to be these truth tellers and we have to go back and and insert not insert we have to reinsert all of the voices that were drowned out you know because of things like white supremacy if we if we want to go there but I don't mind going there I think that's a huge part of all of this is just you know the per the pervasive nature of you know colonialism and white supremacy and and addressing that and you know again like this idea of reinserting the voices that were that were there then that you know one of my favorite places to visit I love Hawaii not not just because it's beautiful not just because of the biodiversity but also because of the cultural science that Hawaiians have you know there's this beautiful blend of storytelling and observation and listening that is is rooted in their in their heritage and culture and when you when you have the opportunity to talk to a indigenous naturalist and you realize that indigenous people are scientists too right like if you think about it the majority of our existence on this planet has been without televisions and without smartphones right I think we can I think we can agree with that which means that there's a lot more being rooted in your natural environment that humans have been accustomed to and if science is rooted in observation and in hypothesis you have all of these indigenous scientists who've been studying these local ecologies for millennia that have not been able to tell their story because you know essentially a huge propaganda campaign took place that said that they were crazy and you know you know demonic or whatever you know and and it completely disregarded all of the you know indigenous you know the wealth of knowledge that they have about place in biomimicry we we we do these things these studies that we call the genius of place where we look at an ecosystem we study all of the relationships this frog is related to this ant which is related to this tree which was related to that plant you know we we see the chain we see the connection and I think and I'm hoping that now we are starting to get more in touch with these indigenous communities to get the observation and the scientific insights that they've had and held for you know again time and memorial so I feel like a lot of just the reboot for society is rooted in truth telling and that's a huge thing as we're seeing now you know that's that's a huge hill to climb but I think that from truth telling comes reflection comes accountability um and comes responsibility and in a lot of ways the burden for change is rooted in the truths that we allow ourselves to be reborn in if that makes sense yeah I mean you you've described it perfectly and and there is you know there's even a foundation of a good friend of mine is root reboot the future and what you just described at the end there is a metamorphosis so it's we're going into the cocoon and there's a in that cocoon there is a freaking battle going on there is you know it's all over so it's Rosa Parks Martin Luther king there's so many things going on there and turmoil but then we we do emerge we emerge as something different and where I kind of feel like we're in that that that cocoon right now that's how I feel I love that I'm optimistic yeah you know the thing that I love about that that metaphor is and I feel like it's so it's so biomedic in a lot of ways um the thing that I love about that metaphor is when you're in the cocoon you everything about who you were dissolves into this slushy goo right and there's like these three discs that have all the encoding of who you're going to become so in order for us to have that metamorphosis we we one have to identify what are those core things about who we are that we want to keep for who we we ultimately become and two it's the dissolving of who we were right and that's I think you know in a previous uh in a previous talk I talked about how you know in a lot of ways decomposers are the best models for dismantling white supremacy because decomposers a lot of people forget that decomposers in the ecosystem are also producers they they break things down and then they convert it into nutrients that then you know feeds you know feeds the forest or what have you and so I think we have to get to this point where we are we're deconstructing these things we're dissolving them into what can then be nutrients for what we will emerge from but we have to dissolve what was first in order for us to you know have that change I totally agree and I'm going to ask you the hardest question I have for you today and then afterwards we're just going to touch a little bit on this on the space and a little bit more and then and then go into the end the hardest question I have for you today is really the burning question WTF and a lot of people say oh that's a swear word it's not the swear word it's more or less your vision your your future what's the future or futures that you envision that you hope for how do you see things going or do you have a plan or a roadmap they say nope this is the future this is where we're going to go we're right in the cocoon something like that so that the burning question is WTF what's the future futures oh I love that question you know my I love that in so many different ways there's a couple of quotes that I really love like as a as a futurist you know there's there's I want to say it's William Gibson the future is here it's just not evenly distributed yet and and I read an article recently that kind of kind of going against that and I'm so glad that you you put the plural the plurality on futures because I do think that that is the future there's there's multiple futures you know people have different visions for themselves but we experience multiple futures simultaneously right and for me I think it's just one like I just want to see more nature integrated structurally technologically and you know physically in everywhere that we were I would love to see you know you see those like photos of like Manhattan in like 1910 and you know you see how lush it was I would love to find I would love for us to is it's not about finding it's about doing I would love for us to do more to to bring more of these natural environments back into how we live right I think there's a normalization of the presence of nature that I'm looking forward to us having where you know people aren't as afraid of bugs you know more people are eating crickets you know you know there's there's there's a greater harmony in what we build for ourselves with the natural world around us you know more more diverse faces and and voices is always you know the biodiversity is how we are here so you know the more that we have diversity in every sense of the word and specifically you know cultural and ethnic you know and shades of hue like any future that has that is a healthy future and I think I mean you know I'm just going to say it I think we've got to find a way to de-emphasize capitalism I'll just go there I mean you know we I've been blessed as you said at the very beginning you know my family's been blessed as a result of a capitalistic system that I was born into that I benefit from in a way that a lot of people don't that doesn't mean that it's the right system to continue working off of because to capitalize on something is inherently unnatural as it pertains to the way that nature works and I think that until we reevaluate how we go about leveraging and maximizing people and things we can't get to the collective futures that I think most of us want that are full of equity and infinite possibility and sustainability so I think we have to address capitalism and I think a huge part of that is addressing waste and creating companies that don't live forever I think we need decomposer companies companies that are just around to you know one of my goals in life is to buy a huge garage salvage yard and through pure creativity and invention have every piece in that yard turn into something else and and the yard become a garden that's that's you know something that I I hope for so you talked about circularity earlier and things like that I think we've got to find a way we need a Manhattan project for waste absolutely right I mean we we've got to figure it out I mean you know as we're recording this actually I won't go there because I don't know enough about that but I think I think until we address waste we're we're we're spinning our wheels I mean the fact that we you know in the United States we export our trash to other nations you know I think I think that's just you know we we've we've got to do something about that and you know feeling you know there's an episode in Futurama where they put trash into a rock and then shot it into into the sun that's not the answer either so you know it's not going on diet right it's more circular economy cradle to cradle that we you know there is no throw away on this planet and we've gotten exactly this capitalism but we're really in these extractive economies and we need to get back to better systems and models and that's where we go back to the biomimicry that's where we look back at the symbiosis of nature and how what how are there those structures set up well they're very systems dynamic they're almost chaos theory which has a huge complexity theory as well where they really tie into some complex dynamic systems systems thinking on how how they work in symbiosis and that's kind of the move that we need to go to because these other we're mans at the top these hierarchical structures are just not working for us anymore and and really that's that's why we have so much disease around the dis ease around the world where we're uncomfortable with the way things are going because they're just not working for us all anymore working for for a few but not for all of us all over the world and and yeah it's a huge imbalance and what you said about and you know where the US is shipping their trash elsewhere it's not only that the advanced nations you know even even Germany even the United Kingdom especially the United Kingdom especially the United States they're going to develop countries to get their products shipped in and so the footprint of the the products the fruits the vegetables the food products the you know the timber the palm oil whatever it is it's being shipped into these developed countries that are thriving and flourishing and the GDP is growing greatly but those who are shipping it they're suffering they're taking the ecological hit they're not getting paid a fair wage and they're like saying oh it's okay to let the US or to let the UK use us as their ecological footprint and basically poop on us basically is what they're saying says okay you guys take our trash you guys take our environmental impact to produce our food but ship it to us and then we won't pay you good for it we won't pay a fair wage we won't pay the true cost you know it's a broken system but that goes that a good segue to space because in the beginning we talked about this overview effect or cosmic perspective Bill Anders who took the who kind of coined the term overview effect as is an amazing guy and it's really funny that we don't have that view of how the world is really working and that's not working right it's this wrong type of model and how do we transition to one that works for everyone and so with that transition I'd like to see if you can segue it into space with this question what does a world and it's similar to WTF but what does a world that works for everyone look like for you Billy? What does a world for everyone look like to me? Man oh man I mean you know I think it's it's interesting like when you when you ask me that the the image that comes to mind is it's actually of it's actually of a farm that is also a design studio and it's it's I just have these vignettes that I see right it's you know it's it's it's it's just there's these intersections right of technology and nature but not in that like you know white clean you know you know with a tree coming out kind of view but you know like natural materials and technology that you know what does okay ask me the question again I want to get to this I want to I want to nail this I just have visuals that I see that's fine what does a world that works for everyone look like for you it's it's I think the thing that that makes that kind of hard for me to answer is because so much of it is rooted in the past you know I I think and and we'll talk to we'll talk about space in a second but I think the the image in my mind is of like the messiah people and 3d printers right like for whatever reason it's it's this idea of you know these these indigenous people philosophies and cultures having the same access which is not to say that they don't have the access now but the things that are held in high regard for creating and producing and building worlds and futures everyone has access to it and so there's these things that we can't even imagine yet that are being created because everyone has access to the same tools so I think that's that's why I'm having these you know the vignettes are of these indigenous people and these things that we associate as being high technologies right you know the the idea that there's you know a highway overpass with elephants going over it right and cars going underneath right like those are the those are the things it's it's in a lot of ways it's this idea of putting the world back together where we are our technology honors our technology honors the planet and the indigenous people who whether you're you know indigenous in australia or africa or south america or norther america you know you have equal access but also your beliefs are honored and what is built for everyone i don't know if that makes sense at all but of course it doesn't and you got the answer right ding ding ding you get the prize because no you got there really isn't a right answer it's more about how you know just like the burning question it's have you thought about it you have have a good vision of what it looks like because it's not just for you billy but it's for every one of my listeners and everyone if they haven't asked themselves the question and if they don't know i can guarantee you that we're never going to get there right if you have a pretty good understanding or a vision of what it is then we have a good shot at getting there and that's where and it's people take ignorance in the wrong way it's more or less about asking the question and maybe even discovering the answer within yourself or within a book or in in in your community or circles and then taking that action that you spoke about to get there to make it to make it happen um and i i almost in one respect when you start speaking i thought you were in a second we need to re-terraform the earth and get it back to to nature you know in some respect that too let's let's get the trees back let's get the biodiversity back that we've lost and let's get within the safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries um that too yeah yeah yeah we we the i mean there's so so many things like that i really um i want to empower billions of global citizens to live an adaptive lifestyle of health and sustainability within the safe operating spaces of our planetary boundaries and and a lot of that comes through education talking about these hard hard things or maybe they're not even hard we do it in a fun way and and it's stuff that's all it's all cool it's nature it's food it's it's cool animals and species and organisms that it's a it's a it's a learning lesson but i'll tell you what it's sure a heck of a lot better than some of the crap that we can get on tv or somewhere else i mean and that's why i was so drawn with you what you've done on an animal planet and little giants and that it's because it's fun and it's like an adventure and it's discovery and it's humorous and it's educational and so i think you're you're definitely in the right way and i can totally get as a designer how your mind flows and works with that and so i i love your answer and i appreciate you sharing that with us because that's that's where we need to go sorry i didn't mean to interrupt you i want to add one thing to that um and it's it's it's not even a definite thing it's more of the question that i would love for us to answer in the future you know um just to just to talk about space very quickly um you know the thing about this all of the exploration of spaces it's rooted in fear and war right like we got to get to the moon we got to get in space before this group does right let's hear let's fund it right those those are the origin points and so the even the conversations in the space industry now or how do we capitalize right how do we mine the moon for resources to do more of what we're already doing and the the futures that i hope that we have you know i would love to see if you were to ask you know some native american tribe here is everything at the disposal of nasa what do you want to prioritize what do you want to learn about the stars you know that is a completely different i think idea of of the potentials of space that we are yet to tap into because the the value proposition is so different than where a lot of space exploration is rooted in now right you know the idea of of you know any any indigenous group being able to explore and prioritize a type of exploration of space you know um i just think that there's a beautiful thing that we are yet to tap into because we're so focused on this very capitalistic how do we mine it how do we get the resources from it how do we you know colonize it i hate that term for for space you know so i think for me to add on to what everything that you just said the the future that i hope we have is one where even in space the priorities are as diverse the exploration is as diverse as the the future itself that we hope is empowered equally i love it i love it i'm not sure if i mean is there any more that you would like to talk about space or you want you want me to trigger you on some some go for it space or do you think you you you've said it all i i think that's a you know that's a big that's a big piece for me is just you know um my my view the things that i'm exploring is just like the human experience in space right like space is a very alien harsh it's the harshest environment and atmosphere that we could ever put ourselves in and and on top of that all of our existence is hardwired to being on the ground in this plan on our planet so you know that's where that's where a lot of my thinking around you know how do we the question i like to ask is how do we take earth with us not only for our physiology but also for psychology and then as we materialize that into techniques and technology how can that then be used on planet earth but yeah go go for it on on on the on the exact same way so i love i love space i love the cosmos i love you know learning about that and i think there's a lot of learning lessons for humanity to be applied here on earth and if we can make it work with efficiency in the harsh conditions of outer space or mars or moon or wherever and then we can definitely do it here on earth and it's a form of resiliency but it's also energy efficiency it's a no waste i mean in space if you were to all of a sudden start burning something or dumping chemicals or just throw your garbage everywhere you know you're going to get that feedback loop pretty quick and it might affect your health your life or the functions of the ISS space station or the shuttle that you're on or whatever the fal dragon falcon rocket whatever you're on very quick and then you're dead and so if you do it smart well let's take those same principles or the same learning lessons and do that here on earth one thing and and second of all uh the resilience that i talk about for here on our planet is not one of dystopian resilience i don't want to be running around to enjoy the future with a gas mask a spacesuit or or an oxygen mask to enjoy that's dystopian resilience i want resilience that if a climate catastrophe or a natural disaster or hurricane or tornado or something happens that the very next hour the very next day i'm going to have energy food water and that because it's sustainable and it's resilient but yet i can still enjoy the nature because we've created systems and infrastructures that are not only sustainable but they're resilient and they're not dystopian resilient where we we've got these guards and protectors and missiles and stuff to make sure we can get save water or have clean air or whatever but that we have a resilient sustainable infrastructure for all where all can enjoy those resources i i um we touched on economic models and a little better capitalism and it's really such a thing for me that um i i truly only believe that the only model that works is ecological economics one that's tied to that symbiotic earth and there is a something in the scientific community we've used for well over 35 years and every year we we always announce the earth overshoot table that's based off of a global hectare or footprint type of calculation and it's also based off of biomass and biomass of humans and plants and other things and if we take that knowledge instead of reporting or or can we if we can't measure it we can't measure manage it if we stop reporting on when when we're hit a deficit or when we've overshot that resource if we flip the switch and say no that's our new economy every human being on earth gets their own global hectare that's replicable within the planetary boundaries and now it's up to us to have stewardship over that so then that colonialism that capitalism all those things go away and we get into a whole another switch um of life and so i think that's the really really amazing thing about it all we've got to wrap up because we're going over time but i have three last questions for you and they're really for our listeners as a sustainable takeaway for them if there was one message that you could depart to my listeners and even if it's two that has the power to change their life what would it be your message um oh that's a great question uh i think one one thing uh is start where you are um and and be open to meeting people where they are um not everyone has has the same um you know perspective or or values are in the same you know mental space or or maturity uh and so i think grace goes a long way and and there's i think the the karma of grace is is often very underrated so whether you're talking to someone who has a completely different opinion than you or trying to convince someone to you know think the way that you do or there's this um there's this you know there's there's proverb that says that a wise man a wise person wins souls and uh i think that you can apply that not just in the religious or spiritual context but it's just this idea of you know wise person you know is able to bring people to um their understanding uh but in order to do that you have to be with you have to have wisdom and be patient so i i encourage people to if you're trying to do something new or if you're trying to engage with someone um one be patient to be open to meeting people where they are um and if you're if you're trying to learn something new or do something you've never done give yourself grace um because everything is a process and enjoy the failure um you know failure is not the end failure is how you arrive at your destination what should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real impact uh nature uh look at nature um and and ask you know i think i think there's a there's a there's a prompt around leadership there uh and i think one of the greatest ways to lead is to listen so we need to be um listening more and also we need to be comfortable with letting other people lead uh at certain times one of the most beautiful things that you could ever see in the world is a murmuration of birds uh and one of the things that makes that choreography of thousands of birds so amazing is that there is no lead bird um some birds take a lead when they're more familiar or they're stronger um in certain environments but there is no lead bird and i think we need to be more comfortable being led and leading by following um i know that's a lot but that's what that's what came to mind the last question is what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have loved to know from the start yeah failure is the process failure um um you know taking risks and um not despising small beginnings being comfortable not being seen while you're figuring something out um and yeah you know um embrace failure um i think that's i think that's the most important thing that we can learn and that's one of the most important things that we can teach kids is like failure is failure is the way um yeah i i get it billy thank you for letting us inside of your ideas it's been a sure pleasure we could talk for hours but we're out of time i really thank you for your time and i wish you all the best if there's anything we didn't get to say now is your chance otherwise i wish you a wonderful day with your beautiful wife and lovely daughters and and all the best thank you and likewise and i'm looking forward to you know us having more conversations on or off camera so it was it was a pleasure honestly and uh thanks for the opportunity to to share and speak with you in your audience thanks bye billy take care bye bye take care bye