 Peace be upon you all. Welcome to our show discussing different aspects of Ashura during the month of Muharram. Today's topic we're going to discuss the very important issue of a concept we call Azadari. It has several names given to it and several forms taken. In essence, we're going to discuss how people around the world mourn and commemorate Imam Hussein. All people around the world show different ways of expressing their emotions, be it grief or be it happiness, and Shia Muslims are no different in this. When it comes to mourning the sacrifice of Imam Hussein on Ashura, you will find several ways of commemorating this tragedy, be it from wearing black to beating one's chest or even doing rituals that might draw blood. To discuss these issues, we're going to have our special guest today, Sheikh Abbas Panjoo, and Sayed Mohsin Shah, to hopefully shed light on these topics. Sheikh, to begin with, we know that one of the ten Furo'uddin, or ten acts that we do, is one of them called Tawalla, which is to show love and goodness to the Prophet and his family. So can you perhaps shed light on how Azadari and how performing such acts of commemorating the death of Imam Hussein is a form of Tawalla? Sure. Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem. You find that as much as Tawalla is mentioned within the Furo'uddin, Tawalla has got its roots inside of Osuluddin because Tawalla and Tabarra are attached directly to the concept of Imam and the concept of Nabooa. Yes. And there is a difference in understanding the Tawalla and Tabarra within the frame of Osuluddin and Tawalla and Tabarra within the frame of Furo'uddin. And hopefully this can be a discussion for another time because of the differences and the scopes that are involved in both. And you find that this issue of Tawalla and Tabarra is endorsed by the Holy Prophet himself, where on the day of Idul-Qadir he stated Allahumma wali manwala wa adiman adha. This is up to the declaration mankuntum maula fahada aliun maula. So wali manwala Tawalla wa adiman adha Tabarra mankuntum maula fahada aliun maula emama mankuntum maula. The one who's master I am, Risala Nabooa which is Osuluddin. Fahada aliun maula, Amir al-Mu'mineen maula over here imamat. And then manu fawa Allahumma wali manwala wa adiman adha is attached to this concept of Osuluddin. If we understand this, expression of grief is something which is endorsed within the Quranic doctrine, within the teachings of the Quran, particularly expression of grief over the plight of the Ambiya and the Awliya of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Because just for you to bounce off this idea, I'm sure you've heard it too, as a public speaker, you see several other communities who kind of frown upon showing emotion and even when someone passes away after three days they'll say, you know, okay, enough now, enough. And I've always found that it goes almost against our human nature. So it'll be nice for you, as you mentioned, to chronically prove that we can show emotion and grief. Of course, Islam is a religion that is there to perfect the intellect. And perfection of the intellect can only be achieved by expression of emotion in the right way. If you shut out the faculty of emotions from a human being, do they remain as human beings? No. Robots. Robots. So emotion is that aspect that makes us human. And you find that this is why for us within the school of thought of Ahlul Bayt we are not refused to weep upon our relatives who have passed away. Yes, there is an extent into which there are certain boundaries in that you can't you can't pass them when you're grieving the death of your family, members of friends. The Awliya and the Ambiya are a separate class or a bracket altogether. But within our normal, we don't have any restriction. Yes, there is this element of Tawakul Allah, to have trust in Allah and to know that this is our path. But showing emotion per se, absolutely recommended. In fact, particularly when this emotion is attached to Ahlul Bayt, we have a hadith from Imam Sadik, alaihi salam, where he says that one of the signs of the believers, yafrahuna li farahina wa yahsanuna li huznina is that they are happy when we are happy and they are sad and grieved when we are in grief. So the Imam actually says that this is one of the signs of a mu'min that he participates in the happiness of the happiness of Ahlul Bayt. And he commemorates the grief which is related to the grief of Ahlul Bayt. And even more surprising than that just came to my mind within the letters that is written from one of the Tawki of the 12th Imam, ala khudja ajallallahu ta'ala farajahu sharif, where he says to paraphrase the words, and we are fully aware of the situation of the shiaz. Meaning what? That the Imam experiences and participates in our grief as well and in our happiness as well. So emotion over here is a very powerful tool. It shouldn't be looked down upon. In fact, it's one of the most powerful tools to help man achieve perfection. The emotion that a husband has between with his wife, faculty of love, it's from the faculty of emotion, the love that a person has with his children, it's from the faculty of love, it's a faculty of emotion. So emotion has got its own role in the completion of man and in man reaching the state of perfection. So establishing or establishing the case for display of grief and emotion has multiple levels and has multiple scopes. Expressing grief for the tragedy of Ahlul Bayt is something which is warranted within the Seerah of Rasulullah, within the Seerah of Ahlul Bayt and is a concept which is deeply rooted within the Qur'an. And you also find that when it comes to expressing grief, the narrations that we have outline certain examples or methodologies in which grief can be expressed and then you have hadith that have left the issue of expressing grief as being arm, arm as in general, which means that every community can grieve according to their own cultural norms so long as they are within a certain general framework of Halal and Haram. But Islam, this is one of the beauties of Islam, that it lets people commemorate grief and on the other hand celebrate happiness within their own cultural norms in a manner in which they will be able to relate with Ahlul Bayt so long as it is within that wider framework. So Said Mohsin, I'm sure you can relate to this, growing up in the Shia community, I'm sure on the day of Ashura or the night's preceding, when that time comes where people express their grief, I've witnessed you witness someone wailing very loudly versus someone not crying at all. You and I have seen someone beating their chest in the middle of the hall to the poetry versus someone who stands in the back just quietly. You've seen people who maybe do rituals that involve shedding blood versus those who don't. Have you ever thought about equality here in terms of is the person who is outright doing these rituals better than the person standing in the back? How would you, have you thought about this? When I was younger, yes, I was, well, maybe they don't feel as connected, maybe the tragedy hasn't touched the heart as much as... We've all done I'm sure the classic as kids, when you go home and check whose chest is redder. Yes, we have, unfortunately, but I think as you go older and go wiser, you understand that people relate to Imam Hussein in different ways. You also understand that people have different ways of expressing the emotions. Some may not be as extrovert as others, but that doesn't mean that the tragedy has affected them less or they have a weaker relationship with Abadullah Hussein, alaihi salam. I guess it's also a building, a never-ending building relationship. This year the person may have been standing on the side. Next year he may be right in the middle. I know people, one year they were bloodletting, the next year they weren't bloodletting. I guess the main thing that we to focus on and what we neglect is the Nia of the person. I guess if we try to understand the Nia, that way we won't misinterpret the integrity of a person's actual intention and their sincerity towards Abadullah Hussein and as well. We all do this. We look at the external sometimes and we don't know the internal of the person. I know some people who are absolutely in love with the Imam, but sometimes they just can't, they can't cry. Sheikh you talked about crying and now I'm sure you're aware we have this ultramasculine culture in the current world we live in that you know this phrase real men don't cry and growing up as Shia I'm sure we never got that because you're used to seeing a whole of men crying and not just crying but wailing. Can you emphasize the importance of crying as a form of expression in Islam? What does it do to our heart? Of course. You'll find that the concept of crying is something which is praised within the Quran and you'll find verses of the Quran where Allah SWT says to paraphrase the verse of the Quran when those who see our signs and they submit to our signs they fall down in submission and they cry. Yeah. You will find crying in terms of when a person weeps having thought and contemplated about the grandeur of Allah SWT in all this is something that points towards kamal perfection when a person weeps and he thinks about the sins that he has committed and he has wept out of grief and out of shame to indicate repentance like what happens when we recite du'a kumail many times du'a kumail is a very du'a kumail in itself is a very touching du'a depending on how a person understands the du'a the monajaat of Imam Sajjad alayhi salam. You have that these tears that are shed in repentance are tears that show perfection. See in one way the shedding of tears this is what I believe the shedding of tears is a proof of the humanity inside of you. Yeah. A person who is not if you don't cry or weep over tragedy means you are indifferent to it so weeping in that sense shows the humanity inside of you and this is where we start to see okay we have got a culture that shows masculinity or portrays masculinity as not having to cry and then we have a culture that shows masculinity which is not threatened by the fact that you weep can you show me a figure in history more masculine than Amir al-Mu'minin alayhi salam? No. Battalion warrior bima'nal kalima warrior that the world has never seen before at the same time this Amir al-Mu'minin, masculinity can be you find him in the middle of the night weeping while he's in sujud not only weeping in in a state of prayer where I have traditions that state during his when the apparent leadership was given to him every time he walked in the streets of kufa and he saw an orphan his eyes would fill up with tears softness of the heart Baba this is something that requires contemplation you and I we see images of orphans on our television screens maybe once maybe twice we will have tears third fourth time de-sensitized yeah he says every time Amir al-Mu'minin show and often he wept how soft must that heart have been so yes the tears indicate the humanity inside of you and the softness of the heart which is something which which is praiseworthy from within the Quran itself let's bring in then obviously there are different levels of mourning imam Hussein alayhi salam please be upon him and we're not going to go through all of them obviously and and label and name them but I'm sure again living especially in the UK and those of our viewers who live in the west as well Shia Muslims are almost labeled in a way by doing certain actions and and one google search will will show you such things so say the muslim what kind of do you think grieving for imam can go too far shake talked about framework that we have in place where you where would where do we draw the line what is extreme I don't even like using that word but what is too much you could say and where do we draw the line or does this grief have no bounds because of the nature of it I have to agree with the letter where I believe that you know grief has no bounds not just grief but emotion yes and at the time your emotions will dictate your actions I understand that there may be you know such as the same word but like a halal halam framework yeah but at the same time we have seen throughout history different forms of grief different forms of protest as well now if you remember in in the Arab african peninsula when there was revolution after revolution and protest after protest what triggered it was a man setting himself on fire after he had enough of injustice he had enough that his emotions and his grief and his sorrow took him to an extent where he set himself on fire which sparked a revolution throughout the whole of the african Arab peninsula the same way with the azar of abu abdullahi saying his death and his sacrificed sparks and emotion in us and you know correct me if i'm wrong shekhna but doesn't the the the scripture say that if you were to know the truth about karmada and and the real messiah the man would die from grief that it is so tragic so if a man is to die from and this is like the this is what the hadith said the scriptures say as in this is expected that you are to die if you knew the truth so how far can how can you put about you now i mean i've i've even heard and whether it's true or not that what we're told in the pulpit there's stuff that's hidden from us on purpose out of fear that those who hear it may even you know harm themselves too much to the extent they might die so what we know is a portion isn't it compared to what actually happened with what was witnessed on that day um and what you said reminds me there's a um i'm a teacher i teach religion and i use this piece of art um in my lessons on ashura and it was by an italian painter um in the late 1800s i believe and he was in istanbul and he witnesses people he happened to be on the day of ashura and he witnesses people dressed in white and striking their their heads with swords and he called i remember he drew the image and it was it's a very although some might call it haunting it seems a very beautiful piece of art and he says that when i saw this procession i wanted to know who they were mourning about and this brings us to this topic of the symbols or shire of imam hussein peace be upon him and how we uphold these symbols and the rituals that we do and they're bringing you both in there to contribute uh please is what have the the the holy family the prophet's family and himself peace be upon them all taught us about upholding these symbols of imam hussein of course um you find that upholding the shire of imam hussein uh alayhi salam i have uh imam sadaq salawat alayhi salam alayhi and says rahim allah ahio amirana rahim allahu man ahia amirana made the mercy of allah subhanahu wa ta'ala encompass those who revive our affairs reviving the affairs from is a very broad category which includes in particular the affairs of imam al hussein and from within the affairs of imam al hussein reviving by narrating the tragedy of imam al hussein the weeping of imam al hussein the beating of the chest and the ziyarah and the self- flagellation and so on so forth and we have a number of hadith that speak about the importance of of these acts and these symbols and where they originated from so for example you'll be surprised the latam the classical act of latam that we have or what we call matam in the uh subcontinent beating of the chest beating of the chest is a practice whose validity emanates from the actions of the women of ahlulbayt from the sabayin karmala where they would beat their cheeks and you have even beating of the cheeks until this day and age so where did this emanate from it emanates particularly from them and just so that you know we we encourage this culture of of researching things academically and citing whatever stances we take with proof that's important fact base let me uh narrate this one a hadith for you it's narrated by sheikh at tootsie in al tahdeeb tahdeeb kitab al tahdeeb is one of our four major books when it comes to uh shia literature hadith is narrated on authority of imam sadiq alayhis salam where he talks about the women and he says and they struck their cheeks out of grief for hussein bin ali and it is upon the likes of him hussein bin ali that the cheeks should be struck so should be struck so you find that hitting the cheeks out of grief if it is permissible to hit the cheek then out it becomes ola or it is a matter of common sense that it is permissible to hit the chest didn't sarah wife of prophet ibrahim alayhis salam also in the quran strike her face when she was when it found out she was pregnant and Allah did not condemn her for it of course ahsantum so we have many cases like these that are there we have proof that derives the validity of this when it comes to the validity of the different mannerisms that we have we have the hadith for example there's a beautiful text known as kamilu ziyarat authored by ibn qawlaway where it speaks about the reward of crying and the reward of the ziyarah of imam al hussein so these are all manners or these are all symbols different symbols from the symbols of imam al hussein shah husseinia and what is important see understanding the validity of this and delving into islamic texts to find the root of these practices is not something that is difficult information and knowledge that is available to everybody however in my opinion something which is a bit more challenging more contemporary when it comes to azadari is this living in the 21st century in the west performing azadari in all its different scales or in its different intensities something that is perhaps not really understood does it give islam a negative image does it give us the image that we are backward people yes does it give us the image of we are violent people we need to answer and understand azadari through concepts like these in this day and age how practical is it are there allegations that are put towards us allegations worth paying attention to or not are there allegations that are purposely created or stirred in the media in order to detract you absolutely and this has happened in the past it's not just theory hit you in the how I would just brought it up love these are schemes that were actually plotted and planned and we have seen these happen over the years even inside of iraq during the baptist times and even during the time of iraq in iran during the time of the shah these were arguments that were put forward pahlavi the second shah he used to come out and one of the mannerisms in which in addition to banning the mawakib of azadari is that he used to put forward this thing and push people within the government to say that these acts of azadari portray us to be a nation that is backward look at the weaponry that is being used when you cannot physically stop somebody from commemorating the azar of imam al-hushayn you can't attack them to stop them what do you do you break their willpower you break their morality you create within them an inferiority complex that makes them back away from their fate almost like we have to please you because see it is human psychology that nobody wants to be isolated you want to feel the sense of belonging to the wider human nation community or whatever it is in that sense so it's important for us to understand azadari from this perspective in the sense does weeping give us a bad image or not in the small for the time that we have many times the concerns that are there against azadari in terms of it gives us a negative image or a violent image regardless of whether it is from the letter all the way to the bloodletting how do we answer back how do we deal with questions like these that are being asked and these are contemporary issues see the first thing is the definition of violence violence is when you exert force or compel somebody else it's not when you exert force or compel yourself violence is when it is practiced on somebody else and we don't have in our faith when anybody is forced to do azadari or one forces him azadari on somebody else in that sense number two is that Habibi our faith we have always been the victims for 1400 years we've been victims until today we're victims you will not find the single case in shia history where our theology where our theology endorses violence upon others the best way to understand the issue or to be able to reply back to the azadari one of the best ways if not no i shouldn't even say best ways one of the ways of replying back is that particularly when it comes to bloodletting is that this is an act which is supposed to symbolize self sacrifice i am ready to sacrifice myself for the imam of my time had i been in karbala i would have placed my body in front of the body of the imam when you come out in a maukib of azadari to the outside world it is supposed to reflect that you as a peace-loving individual throughout the year who condemns violence you are coming out on this day to show the outside world that i am ready to give my life for the principles that preserve the goodness of humanity because this is what imam was saying did imam was saying did he come out for the shia as only law did he come out for the muslims only law they only for the christians only for the jews no he came out to save to guide humanity and you are coming out in azadari to say that i am willing to give my life for that person who stands for the whole of humanity and in the same way i also stand for the whole of humanity and i'm willing to give my life for these principles that ensure the goodness of humanity on its own and you find the understanding changes altogether the perception from the people on the other side changes altogether this is one number two it is about an expression of love if i had been there i would have sacrificed myself and you find that this is not only particular to us you find that even within the christian school of thought and even though there may be a minority there are those who replicate the crucifixion on good friday and they themselves experience pain by crucifying themselves to empathize to empathize does it mean that these are people who are violent backward savage normal people shop owners you student in university family men who live a normal peaceful life but because of the intensity of their love and they want to feel the pain of jesus christ they carry out in the same thing and truthfully speaking it's a language of love yeah i think um we're going to wrap up very very soon i think a very nice way to wrap up is this it is an act of love no matter what you perceive it is an act of love so more so i'll let you have the the final word in a sense i want you to and this may be quite a personal question is any act of azadari that you may perform without naming you doing it how does it make you feel performing acts of azadari any act of mourning whether it is to address him black to attend majalis to beat my chest or to cry for about saying the world to the bloodlet gives me uh a sense of direction a sense of the reality of my existence and the reality of the existence of the imam of our time for we will be we will be called upon to you know sacrifice our lives for the imam so we i know we we dedicate muharam to imam hussain and and it's all about reviving his message and his memory 100% but let us not forget that there's a big battle for our imam of our time and we need to show that imam that we are ready to sacrifice our blood for him and his cause and inshallah with everyone the azadari can help reinforce that notion and reinforce that relationship with the imam of their time inshallah thank you very much thank you to our dear guests for shedding light on this very important topic thank you to our dear viewers at home watching from across the world it's clear to see that expressing any grief for the imam or any holy personality is a an act of love and as it was mentioned there's no doubt within the sheer school of thought we are commanded to and must commemorate the memory of imam hussain how you do it depends upon your culture and how you choose to express yourself and it's between them and god but in the end we must also look at the boundaries that god has set us thank you dear viewers and we hope you join we hope you join us next time for the next discussion salamu alaykum