 Good evening, everyone, and it's Brendan Hogan, Chair of Welcoming Law, calling the January meeting of the Public Works Special Order at 6.35. Just a brief note on our previous evening, there is an agenda item for an appeal at the point of the Board of Appeals. I, in that, hold the authority to deliberate in a private manner, so I would expect the Board to do that, probably not vote in the public commission meeting. And imagine that just so we don't have to take a strictly needed executive session for that, my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong. The attorney's office, by my understanding, will effectively help the agenda close, adjourn this public commission meeting, and then, sort of, I don't know, I'll get it by the meeting if I'll be after it, except for this after the Court. That's my understanding as well. And the attorney for the commission, Haley McClellan, may be able to confirm that. Yes. Haley has raised her hand. Okay. Good evening. Can the board hear me? Good evening. Hi, so if I'm able to be promoted to panelists, that would be great so that I can advise the board when we get to that portion of the hearing. Thanks for accommodating me participating remotely this evening. I think the question that I heard was whether or not this will be treated as a quasi-judicial proceeding, meeting that the board will enter into a deliberative session once the evidence and testimony portion of the matter concludes and the answer to that would be yes. So the board will take the matter under advisement, delivery, and then issue a written decision would be my understanding of the process. We can confirm we can do that. Separate outside of the rest of our public agenda here separate. Yes, absolutely. So deliberative session is separate and apart from public meeting since the commission will be serving in its quasi-judicial function that would be that could occur at a time to be set by the board outside the outside of the bounds of a public. A public meeting. Great. The decision itself would be made public after parties were provided a copy. Yes. Okay, great. Thank you for that. Any further address accounts? Director Spencer. No, I think then the appropriate motion on the agenda unless there are changes would just be to strike the item number nine the executive session with the understanding that the board would deliberate outside this meeting. Over to you on the agenda itself. Motion to strike the item nine. Second. Okay. The changes to the. I'd like to request that the minutes be pulled so that we can vote on it separately from the consent agenda. So. We got a motion in a second in a second. It's friendly to meet it. Really do we need to. That's for me to be friendly to me. Well, let's, yeah, let's say. Motion has been amended to say, well. With the agenda as posted with the exception that. Pull the December minutes out of the sense. Like that for one. Strike. Item nine. As you understand it to the. Yes. There's no. Any further discussion around that. Right. Right. Go to a vote that. Hi. Hi. So. Post. Our agenda is fast. Thank you. Item three in our agenda is public forum. I was talking. This is just speaking public forum to. Sign in on the sheet here. Raise your hand online as well. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah, we'll start with the phone then. Good evening. I can hear some of you just fine. I cannot hear the chair of this meeting at all. So I'm sort of guessing at what you're saying. So your mics are inconsistent. I can't hear you. I can't hear you. But there's some aren't functioning. So I just wanted to let you know, I mean, I've heard Jim and I've heard. Solvi, but I couldn't really hear you. So thank you for allowing me to speak. And that's not why I wanted to speak, but I wanted to alert you to that. I know that people use C click fix. A fair amount. And so I know that the department has been informed through that manner about something that is on East Avenue. It is a depression. When you're traveling south. Right beyond where the stop sign is at university road. And it is a depression that isn't all that visible. However, some cars. And it's inconsistent. There are some cars and some, some trucks that hit that and it really bought them out. And in the summer, there's a lot of swearing going on. And in the winter, of course, the windows are up, but people swerve to avoid it swerve into the other lane. And I don't really know what that depression is about. I do know that last summer is odd. The circumstance occurred where a man in a little truck came by with a can of spray paint and put a big X on it. And I thought he maybe was working for a contractor, but he wasn't. He was a citizen and running around the city. He was a citizen and running around the city. And he was labeling things with the spray paint to alert people. Or the department of public works to problems on streets. Of course that wore off. And I traveled that street all the time. I have a Nissan Rogue and I don't hit that depression. So it's not consistent. It's not consistent. I don't know if you can see if somebody could kind of look at it and determine what is going on. I know that there are going to be improvements at that crosswalk. But I do know that it could be a hazard when people swerve to avoid it. So I just wanted to bring that to all of your attention. And the other thing I wanted to say is, is I really appreciate all of you and the department. And I hope 2023 is a good year for all of us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry. I'm not hearing you well. I'm sorry. Just not. But it's okay. I will, I'll do the best I can. Thank you for alerting us to that. Ms. Busher, we're going to try another microphone here for chair. Hold on. I can hear. Sharon, can you hear me now? Oh, perfect. So then I will share. I'm like, okay, great. All right. Yeah. Thanks for those comments. Next, go to the room. Okay. My name's Francine Cohen. This is my husband Steve bliss. We were told to come here by Philip Peterson. We have issues with parking. We live on Hoover street. And we've lived there. We moved in August, 2019. And we have a garage where we park one car and the driveway is a little short, but we've parked there for probably two years before with no problems. And then we started getting tickets and told that we can't park there. And I know that there is an ordinance that says you can't block the road, but we're trying to figure the sidewalk, but we're trying to figure out if there's a way to come to some way that we could park there. We don't block the sidewalk completely. Just a little, I sent pictures to a few people. So first I spoke to Leonard de Charme. He's parking services manager. And he said he was unable to commit to not ticketing us since it's found by an ordinance. And then what happened is this summer, so on Hoover street, it's a very steep street. You could park on both sides of the street except during the winter months. And then it's one side of the street. It's the north side of the street. We live on the south side. And this summer there was a woman who was trying to have a home birth and something happened and they could, the ambulance couldn't get through. I had a, they were able to get up there. Everything was fine. But the neighbors have decided that they want to try to make it one sided street parking all year round. Because when people park on both sides, it gets congested. So meanwhile that's happening. And we're told that we can't park in the driveway. Park on both sides. It's difficult from large trucks, garbage trucks, to get up there. It's a dead end. So they have to maneuver back around. It's pretty congested. Tight little area. So, so Leonard said, he couldn't help me and referred me to Phillip Peterson, who's a public works engineer. And he talked to other engineers and he said there wasn't anything they could do. So they, he said to come here and talk to you guys. So that's why we're here. And we're just trying to, I don't know who makes these decisions. We, you know, we're trying not, we want things to be safe, but we feel like us drive parking in the driveway. I have a Prius. It's, it's, you know, so it's not a huge car. People could still walk around strollers could still walk around. We don't park there when there's, you know, snow issues with them when you have to get off the street. I park in my neighbor's driveway. So we've been, you know, trying to work it out. But like this morning, it's a very steep street. We're hoping to age in place there. And it's, it's, it's a hardship for us to, especially in the winter to park on the other side and, and Steve this morning slipped on the black eyes and we're hoping he didn't break his wrist. Because if I could park, if he parks in the garage and I could park on the side on the driveway, that's flat. And then we could get into the house. Otherwise we're dealing with this hill. You might ask, why did we move here? Anyhow, that's, that's a move point. I mean, it's a place we want to live. So, and then the other issue is our house is almost at the end of the street. So there's one more house up and then it's the dirt road. It's redstone terrorists. They don't, they do plow it. Sidewalk. The sidewalk pretty much ends. So I asked my neighbors, I sent out emails to everybody to see if anybody objected. Nobody seemed to have any issues. It's a place that people walk because they go up to the quarry. And, you know, you've got, they can walk around. They can walk on the other side. And quite honestly, a lot of people just walk in the street, especially if you're only parking on one side. Yeah. Yeah. So we are wondering if the city can do some kind of I don't know what it's called, exception to the ordinance. You know, we're not on, we're not on a busy street. We're just, so that's, that's why we're here. And you need to know where to go. Yeah. We want to understand who, who has the authority jurisdiction over this type of issue. And if, if there is a procedure, what is the procedure for requesting whatever it is we're looking for a waiver, a, you know, we don't even know for a legal standpoint what we're asking for it, except we'd like some clarification on that. Sure. Thank you. I'll say in this public forum tonight, we're not able, we're not going to deliberate about it or, or probably find a solution this minute, but thank you for coming and stating your piece. We have to get the email from you. We have your contact information. Okay. So, but are you the people that make this decision? Or is this a go further? Is that something you have to talk about? I don't know. I don't know. Yes, I think staff was referring to the commission because we are enforcing ordinance that says you cannot block the sidewalk. And so any change in ordinance would be something that the commission or the city council, depending on the section of ordinance would need to vote on. So I think we've heard your input tonight. My staff will connect with the commission chair and we'll discuss next steps. Great. Thanks so much. Thank you for coming. And should we check back? I would suggest checking back in. And I expect it would either be the commission chair or probably city engineer following up with you. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else in the room for public comment? Please. Hello, everybody. My name is Chris Haseley. I'm here. I'll be wearing several hats tonight. Both as a downtown resident as an NPA member and as a member of the church street marketplace commission. This is my third public meeting of the day. So making through. Okay. I really wanted to talk a little bit about parking and some of the things that have gone on in the downtown. As a downtown resident, we've had a loading zone in front of our building. I live on college street. And the loading zone in question is the one immediately in front of the archives bar. And for a long time for the first years that live there, that was designated as a vehicle loading zone. And it was used regularly by the residents of the building in which I live, 32 units by Mr. Handy for the purposes of unloading groceries and skiing equipment and things of that. And at some point, I think about a year ago that changed to a truck loading zone. And I didn't really notice it at first in one of the parking service agents, I believe it's the new term, educated me about the fine difference between a vehicle loading zone and a truck loading zone and how I would need to apply for a $40 permit to make my vehicle into a truck if I wanted to continue using it. And so I just wanted to bring that to the commission's attention because downtown is changing. Previously that building was the free press building. It was a commercial building. And the way it was explained to me is that it really was always designated as a truck loading zone. And the signage was incorrect. And so when they put up the signs to designate it as a truck loading zone, really it was a technical correction to incorrect signage that had come up. So my reason for being here tonight is to just ask the commission if you guys would maybe perhaps consider a change in the ordinance to designate that as a vehicle loading zone and recognition of the fact that we do have 32 residential units in there. People need to use that for unloading groceries and also ski equipment, hiking equipment, things of that nature. I've also learned over time that when it comes to things of parking and signs, everything is in the city ordinance, every little change has to go through. So I figured I'd start here with you guys and y'all and go from there. So that was the first issue. The second issue is with the parking here, putting on the marketplace commissioner hat, we've got a lot of projects coming down the pipe that are going to have an impact on the parking downtown. You know, when Great Streets gets underway, we stand to lose a significant close to 40% parking. The marketplace garage is going to be undergoing renovations here pretty soon and the Cherry Street entrance will be getting closed. So I think that when folks come, you know, downtown to shop, one of the things they're having an expectation of is when they pull up to the curb in the winter months is that they're going to be able to actually step out onto the sidewalk. And while we've had a very mild winter this year, we've been very fortunate in that regard. There have been storms in previous winters where the immediate part of the sidewalk would be cleared if people could get through a walk. But, you know, if you were coming into town to shop or to do anything or even unload your car, you'd pull up next to a meter to, you know, a two or three foot snow bank, which made it difficult to get out of the car, pay the meter, things of that nature. And what was particularly concerning is I noticed that in the handicap spot located at the corner of Center Street and College Street, that was also the case. I've seen times when folks coming up the way, the vans were unable to extend the handicap ramp because there was a snow bank there. And I had to see them get out of the van and actually go up the middle of College Street to the intersection and then come back onto the sidewalk by way of the marketplace as well. So I think that this is probably more of a function of, again, the changing nature of downtown and the fact that we've got some residential units. So I just kind of wanted to bring that up there. That's really all I wanted to say tonight on that regard. As far as the NPA thing goes, I wasn't planning to speak on this. I did see that the Winooski Avenue parking regulatory change was on the agenda. We did get quite a bit of feedback from the community about the process surrounding that decision that was made. I think that that ship has sailed, but I hope moving forward, we could have a more engaging process. I think folks were feeling, you know, based on the feedback that we got at the NPA, that there really wasn't a meaningful opportunity to participate. And I hope that moving forward, we can create those kind of opportunities. So thank you for your time. Yeah, thank you. All right. Anyone else in the room interested in speaking at public comment? Don't see any. Mr. Goulding, do you have anyone else on the phone? You can see a few members of the public join. So if we're interested in speaking on public comment period, please raise your hand, feature on Zoom or the chair, close the session. And at this time it appears that there's nobody interested in public comment. All right. Thank you for checking. With that, we'll close public forum and move to our modified consent agenda with two items remaining on a pine street and Cherry street. Always stop and a King street 30 minute parking adjustments. We have a motion from commissioner bar. Thank you. Second from vice chair on the above. Oh, thank you for that. Is there any discussion around that motion? All right. See none. Go to a vote. Favor, please say aye. Hi, hi, hi, hi for myself any post. And send agenda passes six zero. Thank you. Moving forward. Item four point one will call it on the December minutes. You want to take this while you wanted to pull it. I just, I made a suggestion of my own comments to be edited, but I did have some concerns of some of the other content represented by what some other folks had potentially said or not so I'm not comfortable with the other content so I just wanted the opportunity to be able to not approve the minutes as they are even though I do appreciate the fact that the my comments of my comments have been corrected so that's my reason for pulling it so that I can separately vote not to support that version of the sure thank you for that with that said I would welcome a motion the minutes okay the motion from Commissioner Barr a second from Commissioner Fox thank you for that is there any discussion around the motion all right all in favor say hi hi hi for myself opposed I want to post all right so the Zimmerman is passed by a vote of five to one we forward to item five agenda an appeal relating to 194 red rock drive so either way yeah welcome a communication from the Department of permitting inspections perspective then we'll welcome a communication from the appellants discuss and have a chance to ask questions in our role as the appeals board check and public comments on it does that does that sound about right from our legals legal staff perspective so chair Hogan just one thing that I would recommend would be to take sworn testimony from both city staff and from the appellant and if the Commission would prefer I'm happy to swear in those that will be testifying before the Commission this evening that sounds great to me thank you so it sounds as though the Commission is is ready to proceed with hearing from city staff if that's the case I'm happy to to swear in director Ward it looks like we'll be presenting on behalf of the city I'm sorry enough one more point on that I think we had a question or clarification from a fellow Commissioner here I just wanted to note based on our conversation earlier today that for the record I had a similar experience to the appellants in the past with predecessor city the departments involved here and although I do feel that I could provide a fair and impartial hearing to avoid even the appearance of partiality one way or the other I will not be participating in the deliberations or decisions in this hearing all right thank you for that sorry I spied earlier proceed so director Ward would you raise your hand for me do you swear a testimony that you will give to the Commission relative to the cause under consideration this evening will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you with me tonight is building official Kim I and Ellie and we also have on Zoom senior building official rad biggie in the event that their testimony may be necessary would be helpful to potentially have them be sworn in now I'm happy to do so that's the Commission's pleasure please so I'll start with the inspector in person can you raise your hand for me do you also swear or affirm that the testimony you will get tonight relative to the cause under consideration will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do and if you're able to turn on your camera inspector biggie okay it didn't give me an option to turn on video so so that looks to me as though you might have the off switch on your physical camera no but I had to they had to invite you to join and it just happened great we can see you now and do you also swear or affirm that the testimony that you'll give to the Commission tonight relative to the cause under consideration will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you again please so my name is Bill Ward I'm the director of the permitting and inspections department as a minor piece of background the city for decades issued zoning and trades permits in different departments the zoning office for many years was up at City Hall and in 2019 that group of staff came down to this building and joined became part of what's now the Department of permitting and inspections that I'm the director of so the permits are issued in one location now but that was not the case at the time that these permits were issued the trades permits were issued by the Department of Public Works in this building and I was didn't start at the as the code enforcement director into 2010 so there's a minor variation in the way things were done back then versus how they're done now but I'm answering for all of those divisions at this point so what I'll say is the the appeal is about a property at Red Rocks condominium unit number 194 the condominium is part of a larger complex and it was formally known as 161 Austin Drive there were building permits issued at this specific property in 2008 this condominium but those projects were not inspected and not closed according to the instructions that were given to the property owners when they applied for the permit the properties were issued a permit building permit on March 13th of 2008 the project was for skylights and for exhaust vents the project was amended a few days later on the 28th of March of 2008 to convert over the area of the garage into a yoga studio both of those building permits do state all work performed by the applicant shall comply with the codes and the ordinances of the city of Burlington both permits were signed by the property owners as the applicant the city's permit documents have no notes from the inspectors or inspector sign offs that close the permit those were included in your packet the permit remain those both of those permits remain open today as of this hearing there was also an electric permit that was issued a short time after those for the same project for the electric work that was going to happen in that area that permit was actually issued to not the property owner but to an electrician that permit also is in your packet and the permit specifically states all work performed by the applicant shall comply with the codes and the ordinance of the city of Burlington that permit has the same sign off requirement and call for inspections that permit was signed by the electrician Gordy stone the permit records from that are also in your packet they contain the notes from the rough inspection which is like the the first inspection to see before things get closed in that things are in order and then there's notes from the final inspection that said the electrical inspector was satisfied and that permit was then closed the the trail stops there for about 14 years 14 years later when the property owner is called the department to get the permit closed out from 2008 inspector Kim Ianelli from our department went to the property on December 14th of 2022 she found that the project met the building code with the exception of the window requirements and the window required requirement was the second floor this was for a second floor area over the garage that was going to be habitable space now habitable space comes into play in this because it means something specific it's a living area and in the general term a habitable space can be a bedroom so that's important to what we're going to be talking about the inspector found that the project had a window that was too small to meet the egress requirements for the second means of egress to be able to successfully close the permit out so from a code perspective I gave you an overview in the packet but generally speaking the reason there's a second means of egress or an escape it's somewhat interchangeable as people talk about it is that if the primary means is blocked by a fire or some other hazard there's another way out from what would have been either a sleeping area or people area where people may be gathered or resting in this case it can't just be a normal size window or a smaller window it has to be big enough for a firefighter to be able to get in and get you out of there to in a safe manner so that's called an escape window the larger size window is important in this in this case the question of the property is the second floor over a garage and there's only one door or stairway to the exit from the ground floor and the existing window which is too small the property owners contacted me after inspector i and ellie's visit and they explained that at the time they had had a time of sale inspection from the fire marshals office in december of 2022 and that report from the fire marshals office did not have a requirement or state anything in writing that there was a need for a fire escape window i read the report after they sent it to me and i agree with them that it wasn't specifically stated i called assistant fire marshall chris franzin he was the inspector who did the fire marshals report he told me he was aware of the open permits for the change in the area to habitable space and he stated quote i have faith that the permitting system uh that he said he was aware there was open permits for changing that area habitable space and he said quote i have faith in the permitting system and being that permits were already open for changing the space to habitable space i didn't raise or it didn't raise any red flags i have the full email from assistant fire marshall franzin to enter into the record if that's necessary i also encourage the property owners to call the fire marshals office specifically because it was clear that they agreed with the building official kim linelli who had required this secondary means of escape so there was a lack of that item in the report but it shouldn't indicate that it wasn't a requirement and it is specter inellie's duty and obligation to call that out the current owners have been using this area as a yoga room which is what the fire marshals office saw during their december inspection the building permit approval of that area as habitable space would allow the current and future owners to use that area as a bedroom or other living space and this is why the escape window was critical the property owners have told me they were not informed of the need for an egress window at the time that the building plan was reviewed and approved and the 2008 permits do say in print that the permits need to meet the code so it's the city's position that the property owners did know if they didn't know what the code was they could have asked for city guidance or sought for a professional builders assistance for guidance the owners also told me they were concerned that the requirement for the egress windows may not have been a code requirement in 2008 inspector inellie made copies of both the 2003 nfpa section 101 code section for egress windows along with the 2015 section to show that it's the same requirement now that hasn't changed and i provided copies earlier today to the property owner and i'm happy to enter into the record the copy of those documents tonight the owners have said that they'd had an expectation that the city should have notified them that there were open permits but it's the city's position that the owners were notified when they signed for the permits in 2008 and that they were responsible as applicants for calling for the inspections and closing the permits those things are written clearly on the 2008 permits that i issued or that i gave to the commission and i sent to the property owners in summary i just wanted to say that the nfpa or national fire protection association code section is clear that the egress window is a requirement here the department of permitting inspections considers this a life safety issue and not a negotiate a negotiable item uh it's if it were if we were to make an exception i believe we would be taking on the responsibility and liability from that point forward if tragedy struck and anyone is injured or an emergency or fire in this room above the garage this would include both the current and future owners their guests and potential hazards to any emergency responders so my request for the dpw commission is to uphold the staff decision that the vermont fire and building safety code specific to the nfpa 101 life safety code was interpreted correctly by inspector ion ellie and that the escape window is required for habitable space over the garage at 195 red rock drive and uh building official ion ellie is here and her i would call him direct supervisor the the senior building official brad biggie here is here in assist as assistance because they both have the nfpa certification that i do not so they can answer the technical questions but i'd be happy to answer specific questions about my testimony now or after the appellants have had their opportunity great thank you for that statement i guess for our um legal advice should proceed and get a statement from the appellants at this point um thank you chair hogan so just a couple of uh suggestions for the commission um first i would state that if um the city staff intend to enter those documents into the record that they referenced during the testimony that um the commission take copies of those and that the same be provided to the property owner um and then my next recommendation would be that before um the commission turns to um the the property owner having an opportunity to to present um any testimony or evidence that they have that they should be given a brief opportunity to inquire of the city staff um a reasonable number of questions that they have regarding the testimony that was just given if there's further testimony that is to come from the inspectors then it would be to the commission's discretion as to whether they want to hear all of the testimony from the city staff now give the property owners an opportunity to inquire um into the testimony and then from their move to um hearing direct testimony and evidence from the property owners okay thank you uh would it still be appropriate then to after hearing testimony from the property owners to to circle back with questions for each party or would you recommend taking those questions one at a time um i think it's to the commission's discretion for efficiency it may make sense to ask questions at the end um but certainly if there are questions that come up um it's to the chair's discretion okay yeah well thank you for that we'll i'll um it's up to proceed as posted on our agenda and move to uh hear testimony from the appellants after which point we'll um have commissioners discussion on it yes mr ward i believe i heard it the instruction correctly that that there was a preference that we submit our documents now that way you have them but yeah i'm happy to wait until after the appellants if you prefer if you have hard copies yeah that'd be great most certainly the appellants were given a copy by email earlier today excellent one of us is giving you the 2003 codes are on the bottom of the page and just a quick point of clarification i thought i heard a reference to some emails from the fire marshal's office and i just want to confirm if those have been submitted to the board if the those have also been provided to the property owner if they haven't been i would suggest that the property owner have a chance to review those they have not been provided to us this property almost and they've not been provided to the dpw commission okay so we we do have in hand our um two versions of the fire code all right let's uh proceed and hear testimony from the appellants should we look yeah should we look to get you sworn in as well okay you could just raise your hand up to the camera so i can see it thank you do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you will give tonight relative to the cause under consideration will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth i do thank you hello my name is annette and i'm co-owner of the condominium in question with anna right um i want to give a timeline we bought this condominium in 2007 through the champion of our we call it right as uh no in some of the rules for this unit and these units were specifically designed with an unfinished space for the broad so that owners could finish the space if they wanted to or leave it unfinished a storage space and the window was in place in the facade as it is and was with every unit in that condominium uh the previous owner from whom we bought the condominium and they had owned it since 1994 when it was built did not finish the space and so after we purchased the condominium we decided that we would like to add a new room over the garage since we practice the over every day um in early 2008 nanny threw up a design and i believe you have a copy of the design in hand and in this design specifically the drawing shows the writing that says existing window in other words we created a room around the window that was already there zoning improved our design and the zoning and dojo permit were issued and then the work was started and also completed in the spring of 2008 fast forward to 2020 in preparation for offering a condominium after sale then it contacted public works by phone on several occasions and left phone messages to confirm that there were no issues outstanding permits in our name we never received a phone call back in july 2022 i went in person to city hall to inquire with anything outstanding in our address regards to the condominium and a gentleman there took me into our side room and showed me a microfiche and he determined that there was nothing for us to worry about in preparation for this we in november of 2022 we signed a contract to sale for condominium and in the process of this we requested a fire inspection and chris fransen was a assistant fire marshal and he was the person who came into our condominium to inspect he walked up the stairs to the overroom and without prompting he stated you're not using the space of the bedroom and therefore you will not need to have an address window those were his words and we did not say anything we did not prompt him in any way so this was the first thing he said when he saw us he then sent us a fire inspection report which did not mention the need of installing a bigger new window it is due to this series of theory of irregularity that danie and i are feeling the requirement to install an address window the high cost of the window at this point in time is prohibitive to us as low income individuals we reported about $1,500 which is a significant chunk of my paycheck as a preschool teacher danie is the target kinematics income we would like the city to acknowledge the oversight of irregularity that i listed or mentioned above and to waive the requirements in our specific case in my understanding the egress window is meant to prevent death due to fire and the fire inspector gave us a green light in the dark to this issue Oversights occurred on both sides danie and i did not proceed to close the building and the city did not point out the requirement of the window installation at a reasonable time i.e. before the construction was undertaken so it's our understanding that even if in 2008 we had proceeded to exploding the building permit we then at that time have been told to install a egress window and therefore would have again had to be added cost of taking out the window that was already there and putting it in a different window whereas i feel that the city's responsibility to tell us at the time of the design that this window does not match the requirements and therefore we could have you know wrapped it into the entire construction project and cost and also budgeted because again with the individuality it's not that we have another 1500 in our costs i believe that's the end of my statement and i really appreciate you taking the time and giving us this opportunity here all right thank you for that statement with that i'll open up to questions from the board of appeals here either the the staff members that were sworn in or to the appellants that was sworn in chair Hogan yeah please just one point of order so i would recommend perhaps that before the commission move on to questions from commissioners that at first allow the property owner an opportunity to inquire of director ward if they have any questions regarding his testimony allow director ward to ask any questions within that scope to respond in kind and then open it up to commissioner questions so that the property owner is afforded an opportunity to to inquire into the city staff's position and assertion here tonight they may not have any they may not have any questions but to at least provide an opportunity i would advise the commission thank you for that yeah let's do that to the appellant is there any questions you would like to ask of staff i have a statement to make in response to the you know the opening segment and that is mr. ward stated that the email communications with board chair indicated that because he would knew that there are outstanding permits this was the reason that he did not mention the you know the need for the windows window but i do doubt that and i believe it is it didn't hear say it because as i said you know he walked up the stairs to our room and he out of his own free will offered that we would not need to meet us window because this wasn't usually the bedroom and therefore i believe that you know this was an after the fact tying up the knots to make it look a certain way and you know we just don't have any evidence to that fact that in fact mr. ferns and was thinking about the government when he volunteered information about the smaller window any response from staff sent i'm not sure if i heard a question i just heard that she didn't believe that what i had said was accurate but i'm not sure i heard because it's muffled i also will trouble picking up it um exactly if there was a question there i understand there's um sort of a point about the opening statement and the outstanding permits they were referenced in there if there's a specific question to staff could you please restate that there was it was a comment it was a common um it is valid in the series of others that said thank you for that comment uh offer the chance for staff to ask any clarifying questions of the appellants i would like to state that unequivocally that my conversation with the fire marshal did happen it happened the way i described it i did ask the property owners to consider calling the fire marshal directly and i guess i would pose that as a question to if they would just confirm that i i encourage them to call the fire marshal themself if they still had a question about that conversation yeah there is no question about the conversation the question is about the fire marshal was thinking and unfortunately none of the public know what he was thinking at the time is there uh could you ask the question though were you um i believe i've got the question and to confirm that were you advised to check with the fire marshal and did you do so we did not and we did not feel a necessity because we didn't have a question or the only question we had cannot be answered because none of us will know what he was thinking at the time okay thank you anything further no i have nothing further all right um proceed to commissioner questions at this point if that's directed to me i think that's appropriate yes thank you all right uh check with the commissioner damiani questions to the uh to staff or to the appellants uh i think my only question is and just to make sure i'm understanding the facts correctly that there are currently two forms of egress and one of them which is the window is just not of the proper size according to the nfp standards is that correct correct there's a way out which is the door yeah stairway and the second would be the window which as was described is the existing window and i will point out if you look at that document that existing window that was submitted in 2008 there aren't any measurements on there so there was no way for the building official to say it was too big or too small it's it doesn't say anything about the size of that window okay so it would require an inspection to confirm that it meets the requirements okay may i have a comment to that sure um i would argue that it was the onus you know that the city should have asked us well what kind of a window is this whoever approved the zoning let's say is this the window that fire is standing so i feel that was definitely an oversight on the part of the city anything else sure damiani i'm set with questions for now all right thank you commissioner fox i can't hear anything no still can't hear anything still can't hear anything is that one off as well did this one work these two work can you hear me now yes okay thank you um i guess the question that came up for me was during the appellants testimony um she mentioned that zoning had approved their design so i guess i'm wondering if staff can confirm that for us um just for kind of that trail so the the short answer is yes that zoning approved the design and i compelled to point out that zoning is the architectural appearance okay and the building code is the life safety code and that's why they're actually two different officials who look at it for review thank you that's all i had may i ask something to that question or respond to that question um i also want to make sure that we're going to do our zoning permit so the project was closed last month am i time to push your bar questions right there all right thanks just an extension of that i mean was the zoning permit approved when they were separate or is it after the zoning permit was proved as a separate issue as a separate issue it was closed as a separate issue as well okay and that's did that happen after um the the the two entities fall under you right now it did okay it did happen after it did so that last month okay well that that was one question and i and i i do get the idea that sometimes things especially if you're a regular public person you don't always see all these things but uh the requirements codes everything but when it falls to safety i have to say that it really does mean that something has to be done to change it whether it can be restricting that it can never be a bedroom i don't know if that can even be done um that it always has to be something less than a bedroom or is that something that's possible it has to be written into the deed maybe the permit would have to be changed the current zoning permit allows it to be habitable space and that could be a yoga room or a play room or a living room a bedroom yeah it really is a wide open door so to speak for future owners to be able to do whatever they want if inspector i and ellie had gone into that room and seen a storage area with just shelves and things like that i think it would be clear that it's not a living space and not a bedroom and can't testify her but i'm confident that the inspector would say that doesn't require an escape window because it's not a living space and that's as i suspected but i just wasn't sure if that was one solution to the issue a permit could be amended to say that it cannot be habitable space and could be returned to the storage space i also believe that that's not the property owner's intent they would like it to remain a living and habitable space right but sometimes it's this or that it is it could be reverted however you can stack water you can clean your room it's got to be one of those two things so right may i make a comment to them sure i believe that that is the process of matter it's my understanding that the discrepancy comes from a fire inspector having a different interpretation of bedroom versus living area and the building floor has an under the same heading and i think that's what that's my interpretation that's where the discrepancy can be replaced but as far as the fire department it was acceptable because it's not a bedroom but as far as the city it's not acceptable because the stand is a higher for the city right may i may i ask a question did assistant fire marshal franzen inform you that you have a permit we did not talk about them he didn't he didn't inform you that you have a permit we know we were already aware of a different source which was the city okay we were in the process of trying to close them but we didn't discuss permits because he was there for a fire section and if you look at the report to see that there were ten or twelve items on it so not like you didn't see anything they needed to change and would have you know have to take all those things i i i've been working with the fire marshal's office for quite some time now you know in in tandem with that and i know as a practice if there's open permits they let that go to our office which is why you had inspector leo out there to close your permits which is when the window was identified is that correct yes i still don't understand why he would have volunteered that oh this isn't a bedroom therefore you don't need the window because we did not prompt him we did not ask anything about a window we simply walked up there behind him he immediately made the statement and just for clarification for everybody it's not contingent on being a bedroom it's contingent on being a little space so a finished basement requires a second means of escape your your door out to your hallway downstairs that's your primary means of address your window or a door to the outside from that room is your second means of escape so it's two components uh uh you know sometimes it happens with a living room most of the time a living room is situated in a house where you have access to a front door and a back door without passing through any of the lock of the doors but basements attic bedrooms living spaces offices that are just solely uh independent room with the door they require a second means of escape to the outside yes i understand that that is a requirement for the statement standard it's a state requirement yes and it's a statement and i do because of the statement of Mr. Franzen i expect suspect that the fire department has a different standard and since we're talking about the fire life i do not believe they do i guess that's something we could try to clarify yeah yeah let me thanks and yeah just to finish it out it seems to me just to make it as simple as possible that the the option here is to either put in the proper window if it's going to be a livable space or revert back to storage space um and then have the permit adjusted i think those are the two things that are on the table based on what staff's recommending is that true that's correct okay all right at this point i have no further questions all right thank you pass the function mic okay um okay so i guess um i'd like to ask the appellant um do you have any documentation um of your conversation with the fire marshal when he said um you don't need um an egress window in your space or is it just um you are recounting what he said yes it was just a conversation he did not report the conversation okay um and then a couple questions for city staff then um kind of to follow what commissioner bar had asked what um what did it mean what does it mean for um zoning to approve design what does that mean for a resident as far as these these steps go if you can just walk us through that in the simplest terms i would say that zoning tells you that it looks nice and the trades team tells you that it's safe but they the zoning team is looking at the architecture of the building to see that it meets the design specifications that are approved under the um the cdo that the zoning ordinance for the city of berlington so if the building is allowed to be a certain height if there are designed to be certain number of windows at specific locations there are specific design elements that they're looking at not the sizes of them for safety means they are simply looking at them from whether they are approvable in their design according to the zoning uh the zoning ordinance for the city of berlington the trades team follows on uh the the team that does the building permits to confirm that the windows that were approved actually meet the life safety code so if this were not a bedroom or a living area then a smaller window would have been acceptable um it's it's really a matter of two distinct um elements it's almost like having an electrician and a plumber they're both required for these types of you know for large projects but they're very different trades zoning is different than what you know the elements that the building code and building officials look at okay thank you um another question and i i hate yes no questions but um is it the city's responsibility to inform the residents of code not the specific code that the the code to direct them to is to make sure that they comply with the code and the specific elements are the types of things that it's the property owners since a property owner or applicant agrees when they sign the permit to meet the elements of the the code again as i said in my opening statement it's our position that if they don't understand that what they just sign says they have to follow NFPA 101 they should definitely ask what that means or get a professional to help them understand what that means okay thanks um and then i think a clarification on the NFPA code that i think um there uh it supersedes what we think um the fire marshal says it really is the standard and it's a state standard it's not there's not a different city standard um for fire egress the NFPA is um the standard for fire egress among other things is that correct that is correct okay so we have the city of really to have mo you with the state of vermont and we have the most uh robust mo you we have this the state has given us more authority than they've given any other municipality to perform their task within the city limits so this is the same code that they would be enforcing williston or in rutlin or any other municipality this is not a quote uncle of burlington code this is a state adopted code inspector ian ellie and myself all have the same credentials as the assistant fire marshal again a long-standing operating procedure has been when they do time and sale inspection if there's open permits they get deferred you know you need to get those closed out we don't we don't do the building that's department of permitting inspection so he may not have called that out because of that fact but the fact of the matter is inspector ian ellie picked up on this and she is 100 percent spot on i fully back her judgment on this and i would have acted in the exact same way so then a follow-up um because inspector ian ellie and um um inspector biggie you are certified by the n of pa you can't just arbitrarily change the the the rules on what an egress window is you have to follow these regulations correct that is the that's the minimum code if you want to exceed the minimum code then you are well entitled to do that but the minimum is what you have to meet for code i believe you have all the documents in front of you that give all the specifications for what constitute an escape window for either a new construction or a replacement style window one is 5.7 square feet one is five square feet okay so no we don't have the we don't have that ability or that authority to just make up our our things we're we're following the code as it's written in black and white okay thank you um that's all for me this is the live mic thank you for that um i guess a question to the to the appellant can you clarify what you did learn it if anything when you went to this um this is the city clerk's office in july of last year yeah um you know he did show me the microfusion i believe it had to do with um you know if there were new means on the property and so forth there was nothing of the sort and then i specifically asked is there anything else that we need to take care of before we proceed to sale and he said no thank you for that um i'll just note is a sort of in in preparation for this hearing it looked up the um the city property records as you may know has a nice database that's searchable of what's going on and you can see several um you know i can see the 2008 permits still being open there um yeah unfortunately obviously it's like very spoke to in the clerk's office was looking at liens or probably that the history of old permits uh on the the microfiche is um may not be the the latest up to date status of all the electrical permits that are may or may not be completed the zoning permits that may or may not be completed as well um yeah thank you for bringing up an important issue um we were never informed by the city that documents were transferred to a digital database because you know when we this is all done on hard copy on paper in 2008 and again i believe it's you know the city should have some mechanism to let people know that have open um permits that now all your stuff is transferred and you could easily access on digital and that just wasn't the case i learned about the uh platform that you have there in december of 2022 there wasn't like in 2010 you know oh by the way we're now putting everything online and you can easily access it you know again i feel like the city fell down on informing us of the fact that even our documents were now put on the internet yeah of course it's it's unfortunate that that um came into awareness at the at the time you need permits closed uh they were trying to get them closed uh rather uh promptly for closing can you comment on who did the construction with do you do that work yourself so we uh oversaw it we hired you know uh local car printer and once again you know we're talking about no budget project because you know we don't have the finances to hire contractors so that's why we designed i designed the stairs and designed the windows and so forth and you know we did it as homeowners when we were late people and we hired professionals and it's done in a very beautiful way i'm sure um you know whoever saw it couldn't affirm that so lovely space and uh yes but we did go to see it ourselves okay thanks um and i guess just a clarification again to to staff if we're um a few descriptions or potential descriptions used to describe this space uh from a yoga studio to a bedroom to finish to habitable um versus strict um uninhabitable space and i i got that inspector biggie clarified that the requirement is based on uh you said whether it's livable space or could be habitable but it is it the is the issue that the zoning permit is speaking in terms of uh what you describe as habitable space yes that in order to have the space comply it needs the zoning approval to make what was unconditioned space prior or you know it's unfinished space the zoning approval to make it habitable space and then the building permits to make it so that it's safe to meet the habitability requirements gotcha so i can if i have a zoning permit to say i want to make something habitable um i could do my thing there but i gather i'm not going to be able to close that permit until it meets the requirements that are attached to that today and in 2008 there were separate departments issuing separate permits and closing them separately um that's not the case any longer the permit the departments are part of one department and they're issued both at the same you know together and are closed together gotcha yeah yeah i think that's it i mean i i appreciate um checking on how long this egress window requirement has been in place i was going to ask on that one be be me to it this way nothing nothing further from my end check with other uh board of appeal members here are there other questions that have arisen in our conversation okay uh can i check to our attorneys representatives is what you recommend is our um do we need to take any actions further actions at at this point or closing this item if there's no more testimony or um evidence to be submitted to the board and the board has no more questions for either of the parties i would recommend that the board enter into a deliberative session pursuant to one vsa 312 e and um to deliberate on the matter in that um it will issue a written decision to the parties to be made available publicly within a reasonable amount of time i suggest 30 days but leave that to the board's discretion thank you for that and then just to confirm is it okay if we uh close item five on our agenda proceed to item six complete the rest of our public agenda and then uh take up our private deliberation separate and outside it and after this yes it can be this evening or again at a time to be determined by the commission at its convenience okay so with that i'll thank staff and thank the the appellants for being present today and stating your respective sides here and i will close out item five on our agenda thank you for that i have one more clarifying question one clarifying question yes please um am i correct in believing that a building permit would not have been issued if it didn't need to safety requirements is that a a question to staff to take it yes to mr. i'm not sure i understand what you're what you're asking there i'm asking uh you know we submitted our drawing and this is a hot arsoning permit and we applied to the building permit why was it issued if it didn't need the safety standards of the day because the the project hadn't been completed at that point so that's why that's why permits are issued and that's why inspections are done to confirm compliance the document again mr. ward director ward has submitted that as evidence uh it was signed there was two building permits from 2008 that were signed by either you or your your partner the the language on the building permit clearly states by signing that you are testifying that you are going to meet the requirements the minimum requirements of the vermont fire and building safety code to include nspa 101 the life safety code nspa 1 the fire code uh in any reference code if they are in so again permits are issued inspections are done to confirm compliance so there was no time you know around the issue of the permit that there was any responsibility to inform us of the fact that our design did not need to be a fire standard again we're talking four inspectors removed from now but the code has not changed the code for windows escape windows has not changed since at least 1976 it was fully in effect in 2008 and that standard has not changed whatsoever through today okay thank you thank you all right thank you to staff and to the appellant again moving forward item six in our agenda north manuski have parking regulatory changes welcome to communication excellent thank you i've given staff the opportunity to have the night off given that this is information only item so i'll be very brief the opportunity here is to let you know that as we've understood the commission's interest is to do a two-step process under many important decisions that the commission needs to make that we wanted to come to you and explain that we are seeking to come to you next month to ask your vote on proposed regulatory changes on north manuski avenue that would allow for the implementation of a recommendation from the corridor study to implement bike lanes between union street and riverside avenue along north manuski avenue we've been doing a number of things to mitigate the impact from the loss of space on street parking spaces on the east side of the street that would need to be removed consolidated parking to the west side of the street those include working to develop off-street public parking options a memo and a flyer detailing our program was included in your packet we have also been working going door to door with businesses to share seek their input on how to regulate the remaining spaces which would be what you would be voting on next month which spaces would be loading zones accessible spaces short-term parking or long-term parking and we have also been going door to door with the business and workforce development team in the city and offering business support through that department as well with those businesses and organizations so we are trying to minimize the impact of these changes as we seek to carry out our plan btv walk bike goals of an interconnected bike and pedestrian network and just wanted to answer any questions you may have in advance of a specific proposal for regulating parking on the west side of northeast gav Avenue next month great thank you for that yeah open up to uh any uh commissioner questions or comments on what director spencer just presented start with uh sure box oh we need a functioning microphone all right so long thank you director spencer um one question i did have about um the city's proposal to manage the off street parking for businesses it looks very attractive to me i wish some like someone would manage parking for me and i get 80 of the revenue seems like a good deal um and i'm just curious you know how staff came up with that 80 20 split and is that 20 percent enough to cover um you know the staff time that'll it'll take to manage and enforce that parking yes thank you commissioner fox uh we saw it and hearing from the council and hearing from this body the interest to really go the extra uh step to try to mitigate the impacts from removing approximately 40 spaces on this two-block section of north winewski avenue uh so we have um really delved into kind of our costs here and by not having to install meters by using mobile pay for these spaces uh and having still the property owners maintain those the the lots uh we believe that we can cover our costs with this small percentage and then uh share the lion share the revenue with the property owners so uh you know we wanted to really try to get people's attention as the first time we went door to door with just a general shared parking pitch there were concerns around insurance there were concerns around how this could be managed so we wanted to try to put something uh more compelling more more uh specific that they could respond to um we've started talking to property owners there's two property owners we've talked to to date there's many more that we need to discuss this opportunity with thank you for that and one quick follow-up um you mentioned I guess that two business owners responded um has that response been positive neutral and um the two uh to date have been uh wanting to know more uh I think they both have uh varying concerns we did confirm with zoning one of the key questions was uh would uh renting out spaces on a particular parcel for people who were from an adjacent parcel would that set up any zoning approvals but thanks to recent council action on parking policy reform uh no zoning permit is needed for this operation with one important caveat that this has to be an ancillary use to a primary use on the property in other words uh the the the zoning code in this part of town seeks to prevent surface lots from being a primary use surface parking and that there needs to be a primary use on the property other than surface lot parking in order to take advantage of this shared parking opportunity thank you that's all I have thank you um and thanks director spencer for that good synopsis um I I had read through this and and at this point I support this um where will the parking be I mean it is I'm looking at the map and it doesn't necessarily say where it will be it'll be in a variety of different places adjacent to where it's being removed it will be wherever any property owner agrees to open up their lot for public parking um at times for them that are off-peak so at this point we don't have any off-street parking secured this is merely kind of a template in which we hope to secure support as we go door to door it's important to note that none of the on-street parking changes south of union street south of the uh feeding chidden that the cross-section of the street is staying the same it was part of the compromise when we brought forward the corridor study to implement phases in order to limit the impact while still getting full north south bike lane connectivity it's exciting to see this move forward so thank you yep that's all I have okay um what about tdm is this part of your um your engagement process with with businesses yeah yes we had the tdm grant program that was offered where the city offered opportunities to apply for grants totaling up to fifteen thousand dollars those grants were allocated and distributed uh early this year uh so one uh the community health center of brolington received a three thousand dollar grant to support in their work with capma around surveying their employees um a retail establishment uh secured funding were actually uh separate from a retail establishment uh a non-profit secured shopping carts that they are going to offer to businesses along the corridor to help their walking customers so each business kind of applied for different things some applied for bike racks that were providing at no cost so there is an element of that there will need to be ongoing elements and we have asked capma the Champlain area transportation management association they've rebranded a couple years ago uh to to apply for funds that they have sought that may enable us to provide a more ongoing tdm approach along the corridor the city is not funded or in a position right now to offer ongoing tdm services without uh capma's kind of funding uh resource that they are pursuing right but they're a great resource go front to um yeah and i think the community health center is that like an interesting nut to crack on um kind of on riverside um and the parking there and i and i wonder this may be totally going off the rails here but um you know how uh the community health center sits on that plot it's like intersection but then it kind of goes debt like at the back kind of goes down to the the um the intervail is there any parking that could be utilized um i don't know what the businesses are i know there's like a mattress place if you go down to the but just looking at some of the surface maps there's there's like a car park or part of a car park that's on that bottom layer um and there's like a Rambo trail but i don't know if you know investments in and i don't know who owns that right away all that but just if we're going to kind of blow the doors off of how we're thinking about parking um also looking into that adjacent space might be interesting i'm clearly not an engineer uh so he's not even listening um but on more things that i'm interested in um the the parking regulations um and i know you mentioned you were going you're doing outreach um but i know on that on that block before you get to Riverside kind of Archibald to Riverside some of those you could just kind of park all day long um and i and i think um so that invites um maybe some community health workers or people who are working in that corridor to just park there without having to utilize other spaces so that kind of nice mix of being able to have some term parking but the turnover as well yeah um streetscape improvements i don't know if that's part of the uh corridor plan as well in addition to in the longer term not in the short term okay and then um last thing is really about the the outreach and engagement piece um if we've heard from just two um is the outreach you know here's a flyer you email me um or are we really um as a department trying to go door to door and meet folks where they are and also recognizes it some of the businesses um there i think a couple um you know they deal with some vulnerable populations and making sure that we are really meeting them where they are as much as possible uh yes all all good comments uh so to hit the last one first uh we are spending the time going door to door to have conversations not to just drop flyers okay and we're going door to door with other partners we have gone with city counselors both counselor bergman as well as counselor barlow have joined us on the door to door and the business and workforce development department in the city will clavell and other staff are going door to door with us to offer business support services micro loans other opportunities so we're trying to have as many substantive one-on-one conversations as possible um the the short-term improvements are necessitated by the timeline for the paving for the state's paving of the corridor so uh there aren't um major changes in the corridor other than the uh the lane reassignment is part of the project but the long-term corridor study does talk about more robust streetscape design moving curb bulb outs at intersections those types of things as well okay great that's all and we are working with the community health center of burlington to explore off-street parking options i want to just thank them for working with us to to reach out to charlo boys which is property owner to the east of them and then queen city steel to the north of them to explore options with those two property owners as well they aren't going to be easy solutions as you identified there are grade challenges but norms uh engineering team has offered assistance with some conceptual design planning if they want our help with that to date they have used their own experts it's great minds so yep thank you yep thank you for that. Question or Damiani? Sure um do we have account of the sort of potential number of spaces that are along this particular study corridor of private spaces that have the potential to try to be part of this program? There was a survey of just all private parking in in the area an estimate of it there are certainly there's 40 spaces that are going to be impacted here on the east side on this two block area we have secured burlington housing authority has offered six spaces to be leased to the community health center of Burlington there are parking lots far in excess of 40 additional spaces key large parking lots include the bus barn development owned by champlain housing trust the Vermont legal aid owned by champlain housing trust 294 north wanouski which is burly ax and cctv they have a large parking lot the children's space outright vermont property has a decently large parking space lot those are the the main property owners that we're reaching out to at this time okay um and then the in terms of timing i think it said that this was scheduled for this summer to be repaved and restriped yep is uh i guess the february meeting when the commission is going to be discussing these these changes is that sort of the last possible moment or is there additional breathing room from there right uh from the direction we've heard from the state uh is that they want our direction and final decision uh and ordinance in place by march so that they the final striping plans can be given uh to them and to their paving contractor the key element here is that as you know when you approve an ordinance change there's a warning period an appeal period so it would be in everybody's best interest if we can get to an agreement in february so that that kind of one month uh appeal period could run out by the time we we need to tell the state what the regulations and therefore the striping plan would need to be great thank you those are my questions thank you question over be all right um the the questions that i have really um relate to the fact that we have the sort of need for a mix of people who store their vehicles and then the people that actually use businesses in the area or uh come to the area in order to um be an employee in the area or you know get services in the area um so i know this you've you just recited quite a few of those very large parking lots that are available with lots of space and the challenge i think you've had of of trying to figure out how best to make it possible for those those spaces of 40 spaces to be somehow made available for either of those choices a in and out because somebody's going to a restaurant or going to a store or they're stopping for a medical appointment or so um my my my thought is that you're you're on the right track with this particularly proposing that you do the city plan to manage some of that parking and take that the scariness out of it and and it reminds me of the proposal years ago that we had approved for doing the very same thing downtown with you had analyzed all the parking lots private lots and and we're going to come up with the same exact sort of thing and until we had a a private parking companies step in and somewhat cherry pick the opportunity that we had so one of the questions i had relates to uh and you answer the question about the community health center because i think their employees are one of the big loads on the street and we changed the parking on the east side of north wanouski from three-hour parking to facilitate use of you know turnover for the people that are using bohong the restaurants and you know the laundromat and things like that to open season so we sort of created an expectation of that so i'm happy to see that they're willing to work with finding places for their employees to park and and that maybe some of these plans we have are going to help but one of the questions i did have is in your conversations with people uh these private lot owners did you see any preference that they were expressing for using the kiosk type method or permits for so for the storage of cars method a needing that's one thing which would be a permit for somebody like a tag like we have in a residential but for the people that are going to the restaurant say on north wanouski there a different need and a different technique did you find any kind of sense of of willingness to use one or the other of those kind of things because if you could get 40 cars off the street that are just being stored there because people leave their car there to go skiing but they actually work in town and they walk and bike everywhere or that's one kind of way to deal with this or right 40 car that leaves the space for people to be able to be the uh inner you know in and out type of a parking person i think there's very few parking lots along the corridor that aren't fully subscribed at some time so there i think there's very limited appetite among property owners to explore long-term parking most of it is hey you know we're mostly uh nine to five monday through friday operation we're open to nights and weekends or you know something to that effect there's you know parking is pretty heavily subscribed in that corridor as there's been lots of reinvestment on that corridor thanks to the champlain housing trust and many others so uh i will say that the only thing we can really do uh at scale and at this cost really is mobile pay which can handle either monthly permits or uh temporary stays so uh i think it works for either option we just can't afford to install kiosk and maintain kiosk uh it you know for uh sharing most of the revenue with uh with the property owners right okay so so it would not be it would just be the sign that says if you're parked here use this method put your license plate in the the you know park mobile the same thing that you would do right or you could just say monthly parking only uh you must enter your code to start a parking session and people who have a monthly permit would know they have to enter their monthly code to start their parking session so that the the the um the the bigger picture that needs to be addressed is parking management is is really the the need for somewhere satellite parking for people that do store their vehicles because i think years ago we did a study on view old street and there was like 25 percent of the cars there's sat there for forever and so i don't know how many of those are again ones that are in the way that are really taking up space that that we need for the people that are going to be coming and going through the day you know through the day so i think that addresses my questions i know there's a lot of concern about the process uh that you know to notify people and change things and and frankly i've participated in quite a few of the meetings online and um and i uh so i'm i'm sort of surprised at that uh that sense of lack of process um because there were quite a few meetings and you know with that parking management committee and and so i'm um i'm just surprised so i don't have the same sense of that but that's just me because of the meetings that i attended um and i also noticed that it's interesting too that that one of the big concerns is the employees of social service providers that are in the neighborhood and the reason that their businesses are there is because that's where the population is that can walk to them so it's uh so it's an interesting conundrum that that that there's uh the need for parking for people that are not living in the neighborhood that want to provide services to people that do live in the neighborhood so as a person who lives in the old north end and and uses that corridor and walks i um i you know i'd like to see the ability for people to that are businesses there to be able to have places to park but i also am a little bit concerned if there's a demand for no bicycle lane so that social service agency staff can drive in and park to do their their their good work in the community i'd rather be able to have a bike lane for the people that live there and less traffic and people be able to walk and i want to make sure that that we have a way that people that need to work there um recognize that that the community needs certain things and we do want to find a way you know so it's a little bit of an odd conundrum i would love to have those people just move into the neighborhood and not have to drive but that's not anything that we can do anything about so thank you all right thank you uh a question on the scope of uh the outreach here just for general yeah support and specifically on the recruitment of businesses for this managed parking plan we've got it in the packet the the yellow stripe on the map of the scope of the proposed on-street parking adjustments and i'm curious are you making the round sort of neighborhood wide in adjacent streets or upstream or out sort of above and below that that stripe or we just talk to people on the on the avenue within the project space itself yes we we are trying to reach people on side streets as well because we know that one uh some of the highly subscribed parking is on the adjacent streets uh such as riverside avenue proximate to chcb so we are trying to engage those side streets and it's likely that our recommendations coming to you next month will include some parking changes on uh those side streets immediately adjacent to north monieski that sounds very reasonable for my end yeah okay thank you for that again no further questions on my ends we check and see if there's anyone interested in speaking public comment session on this item online okay anyone in the room Mr. Hazley this uh was not part of the plan tonight but since i'm here and i have a little familiarity with it being on the mpa i try to convey it as accurately as i can the sentiments that were shared there um my takeaway uh recollection rather it was that we last heard about this proposal the npa back in close to a year ago i think february perhaps it's not a bit um but that one of the solutions proposed was to use the additional capacities uh and the lots provided by the the private private property owners and it sounded like based on what you guys were saying and what i had understood as well is that those the capacity there was limited and the concerns that we heard were as you uh i think surmised that the we heard from the community house center we heard from residents um you know about the loss of the parking there and how it would affect the neighborhood given given that there i'm encouraged that you guys are the department of first rather is out trying to do some door to door to to alleviate this i know it's a tough road to hoe but recognizing that this is going to be on the agenda sounds like next month i think i would try to remind our friends of the mpa that maybe the folks that are most affected would would want to avail themselves of the the opportunity to speak on on this issue i live in the downtown part of ward three so it's not a meeting concern but it is part of my ward so i do try to look out for those folks as well thank you thank you for that we have uh and thank you for those the one pager here is available for you and uh to be circulated we have let folks know in our flyering uh around the parking changes about when the commission meeting would be in february so they're already noticed of that even before we have a draft recommendation that we will also circulate to the neighborhood in the coming weeks once we have that based on the apogee receipt great thank you for that mr goulding can we do one last check of the phone here anyone yeah there is no one signed up all right i think we are in the clear then to close item six and proceed item seven on the agenda of the director's report great uh mr goulding i don't know if you have interest in doing a bike share update or whether you want me to do the bike share update uh okay great um i just want to thank uh mr goulding and uh and others on staff who filled in uh during having vacancies of our transportation planning team i'm really excited to announce we have two new planners who have now started uh we were going to have them come tonight but with the first appeal we didn't know how long that was going to run so we'll bring them next month but bike share is moving along as you heard last year the bike share entity had gone out of business that we were working with bolt and as a result we've worked together with our regional partners puts an rfp out to bid thanks to the leadership of katma and the bids are due january 27th and it's important to note that as we project with the actions that need to be taken most actions will be at the council level not the commission level they'll need to approve the mo u with all the partners uvm champlain south burlington uh winewski and katma and uh any kind of agreements that are encumbrances or licenses to use parks would go to the city council as well as their property rights so it's unlikely that this commission will see action but i wanted to keep you informed gmt i outlined the budget process in my director's report the board did approve i believe unanimously the f y 24 budget that also had us reinstating fares and and reducing service uh three percent it was a challenging budget to put together i think it was helpful we had a great turnout at the public forum i really want to thank staff for getting the word out remarkably well but we're in a difficult spot trying to change the financing structure for public transit informant so i brought forward a resolution that approved the budget on a couple of uh conditions including a prioritizing a regional and statewide funding campaign to get more funding into gmt other than relying on the local property tax which we know is a very limited constrained source so uh thanks to councillor bergman for advocating a lot of this uh funding uh effort and i think last but not least uh chair um thank you chair hogan uh had asked about the wastewater plant tertiary treatment pilot that you all got to visit the last fall and we hope to have the report back in the next month or two and we'll put it on the agenda the consultant on that project is waiting for one final company to report their numbers in so that we can bring a robust report to you off so that's the uh report thanks great thank you with that i'll move to item eight on agenda commissioner communications start on the side of the function microphone commissioner damiani i have no comments tonight all right commissioner overby my my comments are just relating to the uh the director's report um i had a quick question are the are there just bikes being considered or bikes and scooters in the electric you know the new contract bike share yeah the um general interest at this point is to focus on bikes as with the last contract there was an opportunity for a pilot for scooters but to focus on bikes okay um not that i'm advocating for scooters i just was curious yeah um and on the gmt budget are there statistics like publicly available that are you that till the ridership during the fair free years um like somewhere that we could see because i'm just curious whether or not the fair free made a difference at certain times of the day or or or at all um and is that something that you know that that are on a gmt website or how to how would one find that yes uh ridership overall is still down from pre-pandemic levels even with the fair free that said we did get a good uh report an analysis from gmt's consultant on uh the potential long-term benefits of fair free so i'm happy to share that they looked at the cost per additional ride of that subsidy and um interestingly the estimates uh were generally in line with the cost per passenger that exists currently it's around five dollars per ride uh so uh it is not a apparently a huge win uh to remain fair free and it's not without cost um the board without having a sustainable funding source uh to generate local dollars to match all the state and federal dollars felt felt like we had to reinstate fairs but i'm more than happy to share the analysis with you and it doesn't mean we can't advocate in the future uh a number of regional rural transit districts in the state do operate on a fair free basis but they have much smaller operations and uh stronger state and federal support as a percentage of their operations but what you're saying is that that the ridership did not increase from pre-pandemic where we were paying for the bus to now where we've been getting the free bus ride so right so which which is counterintuitive but it but it's interesting that you have that information yes because you would have thought that we would have had more ridership if the fair was free you would have thought that but i have been concerned over time and this is something that has nothing to do with the fair free or not fair free it has to do with the fact that we don't market the buses for people that have vehicles they are marketed for students they're marketed for elderly people they're marketed for people that don't own cars and can't afford cars and so there's a the proof that the ridership did not change is it really requires some thought uh what what that what that message is and i think one of the big problems is that we don't market properly bus usage for the general public of people that own vehicles and and i've had that concern for years so um it could get caught up in the discussion about fair free not fair free but if in fact no change happened to get people on the bus that were you know that own vehicles and and and could drive because the fair is free that's a bad thing that's that's a bad sign so we got to really do something and i don't know what it is but um that's a problem one of the separate question relates to the cost is is it possible for gmt to have some smaller vehicles that once they know the the demand load at certain times of the day they could switch to a vehicle that's not as costly uh you know and and it relates to because i know i think the guy i ride the bus and when the people get on and off they were clicking like so they're keeping some sort of count of people fair free riding that they couldn't get by paying with you know the the carrots so i i really want to do better in burlington with public transit and the gmt buses uh and i and i'm i i don't know how to help make that happen i i really do but i feel like something isn't what and we were not we didn't take advantage of the opportunity we had over the pandemic with fair free and so maybe we can do something between now and when it actually goes away because it sounds like we're not going to lose ridership we're going to just keep the same but even if people have to pay which is which is pretty sad so anyway that's my grant but i i do want to support public transit and and bus riding and i think it's we just aren't doing a good job of marketing that to the average middle class person who owns vehicle thank you the world has changed very dramatically during covet the biggest hits were to our commuter buses we stood up commuter buses we launched a very successful service of link express all over the state and it completely evaporated overnight so we are trying we've got a great new general manager i think we've got a great staff but without a sustainable funding system that can deliver 15 minute headways that can offer choice riders a real opportunity i think we've got a very long road to how well if parking is cheap then it's easier to drive and i think the pandemic about you know gmt i i love public transit um the challenges during the pandemic again because of commuter drivers because of hybrid school i mean i'm just thinking of like people who just ride regularly um didn't have to um furthermore there are people who chose not to ride the bus to allow space at least at the beginning for those frontline workers who needed to ride the bus so it remains to be seen we have a broken system on funding public transit in the united states so i don't think our little commission can fix this but i just like i love this idea um that uh that you mentioned about um you know getting i don't i have it in my head of like getting the rallying troops to really um like get some of our partner communities um to also contribute a fair share can't always fall on um the shoulders of taxpayer property owners in burlington um but anyway that was a different soapbox all i wanted to say really was um i love the new extra-large toaters for recycling um i had mine delivered and i see the truck um coming and going and delivering in the neighborhood um it's great i also still see a bunch of the buckets i know we have until may uh but uh but great job it was quick it was easy pay online and you get your total delivered and i just think like when i look and see the recycling trucks and i just think we're we are helping our workers um not have shoulder injuries yes thank you um there hasn't been a lot of snow so great job clearing all the streets in the sidewalks now i actually uh even even when there is just a little bit of snow it's nice to see the the plows sidewalk and so forth i haven't seen anybody slip on my street going up the um i will say that the all those really nice plastic bollards either the snow plows took them out or people took them out because they're pretty much all gone on at the head of the street and i did a C click fix and i know it's not going to be fixed until probably after the snow stops that's correct but um i i like the improvements that i've seen so keep it up we want to we want to plow more snow too um yes i will echo um commissioner bar's sentiment about the sidewalk plows um it's i've profound gratitude for this department for doing that i think it's um something that a lot of people don't appreciate that the city does um and so thank you please continue doing it um i'll also say like along with winter the paint that uh stripes our bike lanes is is gone in a lot of places so just another uh plug for you know protected separate infrastructure that is not just paint um and lastly uh director spencer i'm super grateful um to hear about that motion you're putting forward at the gmt board meeting i think a lot of people feel very deeply that um public transit is an important resource so thank you for kind of being a leader on that um and commissioner overby um gm as director spencer mentioned uh gmt did a really good public meeting on their budget and what it included the staff did a really good job answering questions and and um if you're curious curious about sort of their budget and what's going into those decisions i might encourage you to look at that presentation um it was really good gmt's and it's it's totally tough and so um one thing that john more said at that meeting was that if you feel that fair free transit is a benefit to your community you know as a public citizen you got to tell your representative about it and so i think as members of the public that's something we can do is push our elected officials on it as much as we can um it behooves all of us to do so um so yeah i know it's hard and it's a challenge but i know i'm an optimist so um that's all thank you all right on the um the gnt thing well i'm thinking of it i mean i think obviously the the switch to fair free did not happen in a vacuum extending situations uh and changes in people's patterns uh the past couple years i mean separate from there i think research in other communities has shown that um fair free transit tends to get mode shifts from people walking more so than people driving uh just by nature maybe the people that are taking trips by those modes in the first place so i think even in a even an ideal world with pre-pandemic travel patterns and um rock star marketing budgets and everything we i don't think we would um sort of expected great mode shift from from that alone that you know certainly we need and i guess but one more point on that is to the extent possible i know seems like folks in this room are are in support of gmt getting resources i think it's especially crucial that there's a enough service enough quality service to avoid the ridership further ridership death spirals in the future because we don't fund it enough to have buses running frequently enough to have it be a usable surface which means that there's less bus fans to be the advocates for even more service the next the next time around and i have um to commissioner fox's point had well um no prior interactions with uh state reps say that like yeah we know we need to fund it but the bus doesn't work for anyone i'm like yeah it doesn't it's going to work for even fewer people if we continue to shortchange it so we got to treat it as a public service and fund it accordingly anyways uh had my water meter replaced recently uh was alerted by a nice letter in the mail that it had not been transmitting a signal in a couple months um personal props to the the team that came out um and swapped it i think the gentleman's name was was jacob courteous uh punctual professional nice experience with the water water services team and get a shiny new uh meter that's hopefully transmitting my data for i've been getting billed i think i got the my letter said that i would sort of get billed at a prorated um estimated level in the meantime and then they'll they'll square it up once we're back transmitting usage or usage again um exactly uh i was um pleased to see a crew out salting a troublesome sidewalk spots on union and the south union in the city about 204 and it's a spot that uh i've brought up in this forum in the past as a persistently troublesome wet spot where whatever's happening on that private residence yeah makes a mess of our public right away on the sidewalk year round it's it's wet in the summer so thick icy mess in the winter um so while i appreciate the um never throwing salt on it to some extent that feels like a fool's errands and we gotta um circle back and and do some investigating on that i i don't know what you know legally we had no we have these issues of our authority and scope and stuff but there's certainly property owners can be uh gotta be held accountable if they're they're making a mess of our public stuff even inadvertently uh had a a good exchange with staff around parking ordinances and how they're represented in the the relative usability of how they're represented in ordinance just to say challenging every time this comes up i go um if we have a proposed change i go sort of looking to see what's around in the vicinity it is always takes me way longer than uh i feel it should because that's um it's very discontinuous there's no we're talking king street there's no um sort of intelligible way to say tell me what's going on in the area of king street and you're sort of scrolling you can search for king street it shows up eighty eight times in that section right but if you're if you scroll down to one and it's item 300 in that like sub subsection i've lost the header like i don't know if i'm in the 10 hour subsection or the three hour subsection so anyways i think it's um it would be cool to have that a more usable interface for that one way or another and that would be probably a separate layer outside the the code publishing platform but i can envision i don't know what the market is for this aside from us i imagine it would save staff time and headaches the folks that are preparing these changes in addition to just saving me and my fellow commissioners headaches when we go to look up and try to see what's going on but i imagined like the that could be the underpinnings of some nice other public services on the order of i suppose i'm trying to get to this business what are the what are the options in that vicinity can i see that uh you know there's three three hour spaces and two thirty minute spaces around or like what are the options if i need to pick a kid up at school what are the options in that vicinity so having a some side of more friendly queryable thing would be not a trivial project but a worthy one if we could get get some interns or contractors signed up for it and i think that's all i got thank you for that final remarks well i just wanted to say that i got the vibe that people think my comments about gmt were critical of them okay because that was absolutely not my intent okay good enough because i have been so impressed with the punctuality the buses are there and leave right on the hour right on the half hour the drivers are fantastic it is fantastic i am just wanting to support an expansion of what i think you call the choice riders the choice riders is that the term you're using for people that don't require a bus but would prefer to use it to be on a public transportation so i absolutely support everything and i just want to be supportive of expanding the ridership with choice those choice riders so i'm glad to hear it wasn't looking like i was slamming gmt for some reason okay because it was absolutely not the message i was trying to to to provide thanks it's noted thank you all right anything further from commissioners or that that will close commissioner communications and go to the next item on our modified agenda which is adjournment and next meeting date february 15 we have a motion from commissioner bar second we have a second from commissioner damiani excellent is there any discussion around that motion go to a vote then please all in favor if you say aye hi hi any opposed all right we are adjourned at 844 thank you all